Do you really hate "religion"...

[Mr Scorpio]

Islam is growing by leaps and bounds all over the world, so I'm hoping it's the moderate version that's growing!

 

I fear that it won't matter. Soon technology will be such that it will only take a small handful of people -- who honestly believe that the creator of the universe is calling upon them to kill anyone else who thinks differently -- to bring about the deaths of millions, if not billions of people. Such is the danger of faith.

[pureinheart]

I can understand how whether or not God is speaking on a governmental level would be relevant to your analysis. However, for someone who doesn't even believe in God, it doesn't matter what Christians believe in this regard.

 

Whether God is speaking on a "governmental level" (though I'm not sure what you mean by this) or to his followers, the result is the same: Christians attempting to legislate the rights of others on the basis of beliefs for which atheists see no evidence.

 

 

 

I believe that, as a Christian, there are better reasons for you to oppose governmental meddling than the threat of that government turning against you. From the words of a Christian-pastor:

 

Gregory Boyd on "The Myth of a Christian Nation" Part 1/3 - YouTube

 

Am in the process of watching all three parts, but wanted to answer your post. The videos that I watched are cool, he seems like a really good Pastor. I suppose I disagree on the level of Christians not being involved in politics, to me it would be the same as excluding any faith or non faith. We got into detail in another thread concerning this matter, so I would need to resurrect past findings to support my view and provide those links here.

 

Here in the US IMO the government has already turned on the people as a whole. I love this topic of Christians not being involved so will make a part 2 and address what I mean by "governmental level":D

[dragon_fly_7]

As an atheist I don't mind being friends with believers or those of other religion. I wouldn't mind either being in a relationship with a religious man. However, what I do hate is a hardcore religious, fanatics.

 

I don't criticize your beliefs nor want you to change but don't say anything bad about my lack of belief in god either. It goes two ways. I don't mess with your religion and you better not try to convert me into yours either. There should be mutual respect.

[pureinheart]

I fear that it won't matter. Soon technology will be such that it will only take a small handful of people -- who honestly believe that the creator of the universe is calling upon them to kill anyone else who thinks differently -- to bring about the deaths of millions, if not billions of people. Such is the danger of faith.

 

Yes, I very much agree and do think a one world religion is in the works…and it's not Christianity (but this is according to the teachings I've heard)

[Mr Scorpio]

Yes, I very much agree and do think a one world religion is in the works…and it's not Christianity (but this is according to the teachings I've heard)

 

I think you missed my point. My point is that everyone is in trouble once technology advances to the point that a small group of theists can cause terrible damage on the basis of religious orders to kill non-believers. Admittedly, it doesn't seem likely at this point that a Christian would be the one to release a deadly pathogen or worse into the world. However, that doesn't stop religions who haven't been secularized from doing so.

 

This is why my "hatred" is for faith in general and not isolated to just Christianity.

[Madman81]

I think you missed my point. My point is that everyone is in trouble once technology advances to the point that a small group of theists can cause terrible damage on the basis of religious orders to kill non-believers. Admittedly, it doesn't seem likely at this point that a Christian would be the one to release a deadly pathogen or worse into the world. However, that doesn't stop religions who haven't been secularized from doing so.

 

This is why my "hatred" is for faith in general and not isolated to just Christianity.

One can say what one wants about Bill Maher, but he put that sentiment quite aptly, I thought:

 

"If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was: that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it."

[pureinheart]

I think you missed my point. My point is that everyone is in trouble once technology advances to the point that a small group of theists can cause terrible damage on the basis of religious orders to kill non-believers. Admittedly, it doesn't seem likely at this point that a Christian would be the one to release a deadly pathogen or worse into the world. However, that doesn't stop religions who haven't been secularized from doing so.

 

This is why my "hatred" is for faith in general and not isolated to just Christianity.

 

This I can completely understand, and mostly the point of this thread- if you hate (and I used that term because I hear it a lot on these boards, not all hate religion, they just don't approve of it) religions or faiths, why are so many confined to speaking of only Christianity.

 

Yes and no on missing your point, I was basically injecting a small portion of my theory, and what you said in this post is my main concern also.

 

Speaking of the US (though this could happen anywhere, I just see the US as a target), I don't think it would take much to disable us, and sense this is in the works already.

[florence of suburbia]

I can understand how whether or not God is speaking on a governmental level would be relevant to your analysis. However, for someone who doesn't even believe in God, it doesn't matter what Christians believe in this regard.

 

Whether God is speaking on a "governmental level" (though I'm not sure what you mean by this) or to his followers, the result is the same: Christians attempting to legislate the rights of others on the basis of beliefs for which atheists see no evidence.

 

I like the way Christopher Hitchens puts this same concept:

 

Extraordinary claims are made that are not verifiable, but extraordinary demands are made in their name upon us, which hold that there are things we mustn't do and things we must.

[Mr Scorpio]

This I can completely understand, and mostly the point of this thread- if you hate (and I used that term because I hear it a lot on these boards, not all hate religion, they just don't approve of it) religions or faiths, why are so many confined to speaking of only Christianity.

 

I've already laid out my theory on that. Christianity is by far the dominant religion in America. Evangelical Christians make the most "noise". When Christianity is a basis for policies that some people consider illogical, they will oppose the policy and the basis for it.

 

Also, I think that folks tend to be more concerned with what is going on in their own house: members of the Tea Party don't travel to Europe to battle socialism, they do it at home in America. So it is with religion.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Mr Scorpio

[pie2]

Furthermore, I would argue that the restraints placed upon Christians via the establishment clause are perfectly just. After all, is government intermeddling with religion not the reason some Europeans came here in the first place?

 

 

I think that the separation of church and state makes America an amazing country. But I don't think the separation of church and state are necessary to build a functioning society. Nations around the world, and throughout history have done it. So, while it's imperative to the values we have in America, it's not really a basic human right, imo.

 

 

And, because many think mixing religion and government is a good and noble thing, it's very probable that there's someone in America who feels the same. But, the laws of the land just don't permit it. So, it's pretty likely that there are Christians who are bound by our laws, just as the non-religious are. And, again (as I've mentioned previously), that's the benefit of having a democracy and winning the votes when a group wants a change to our laws.

 

 

I think you're completely right that the establishment clause is a good thing. But you yourself are claiming it's "good" to restrain Christians, even in something that doesn't violate another's basic human rights (i.e. life, health, safety). Considering you're advocating the validity of your beliefs in what makes a healthy, thriving society, it doesn't seem as fair for you to chastise Christians who advocate laws that will, in their opinion, make a healthy, thriving society.

 

 

Just my two cents, as this seems like one of the major (MAJOR) complaints on this thread: Don't impose your beliefs on me!

[Mr Scorpio]

I think you're completely right that the establishment clause is a good thing. But you yourself are claiming it's "good" to restrain Christians, even in something that doesn't violate another's basic human rights (i.e. life, health, safety). Considering you're advocating the validity of your beliefs in what makes a healthy, thriving society, it doesn't seem as fair for you to chastise Christians who advocate laws that will, in their opinion, make a healthy, thriving society.

 

I think you raise a good point. Personally, I try not to chastise Christians themselves. I can respect am argument that reaches a conclusion I disagree with if the argument has a rational basis.

 

For example, I support gay-marriage. However, when someone who doesn't support it says "it is better for children to be raised by a mother and a father", I can respect that argument, even though I don't agree with the conclusion.

 

However, the argument that "we need to do/not do 'X' because God/the bible calls upon us to" rings entirely hollow with me. I cannot respect the argument, for in my mind it carries no rational basis.

 

I believe such rules tend to be either entirely arbitrary or severely outdated. I believe such rules are the product of intelligent and otherwise rational people who lowered their critical-thinking to accept very comforting ideas, eternal-life among them.

 

Finally, in no way do I mean to argue that Christians should not be allowed to be involved in the political process. I guess I need to articulate my attitude as "don't force ideas that I consider irrational on me" rather than "don't force your beliefs on me".

Edited March 27, 2014 by Mr Scorpio

[pie2]

I guess I need to articulate my attitude as "don't force ideas that I consider irrational on me" rather than "don't force your beliefs on me".

 

 

lol, yeah, I guess we all have those thoughts, at least sometimes. It's just a part of life that we're all living with things we don't like. The real questions is, how do we react to it? Do we kick the dirt, or do we do something about it?

 

 

No one said it's easy, accepting another's point of view (much less, living with the consequences when those views make an impact on our lives). But, when things don't go my way, the response I'm working towards is more like: despite less-than-ideal circumstances (in other words, living in a world that isn't MY ideal), how can I triumph? I personally aspire to the "how can I overcome, despite adversity" attitude, more than anything.

 

 

Anyway, thanks for the respectful discussion, Mr. Scorpio. I think you're awesome and smart. I hope one day, even if you don't necessarily agree with their spiritually-based beliefs, you'll be able to respect the person behind the religious belief, and gain empathy for their position.

[Mr Scorpio]

The real questions is, how do we react to it? Do we kick the dirt, or do we do something about it?

 

Up to this point, I haven't done anything about "it". I learned long ago that arguing over matters of faith is a pointless endeavor. If anything, I've acted in opposition to my own beliefs by volunteering my time to institutions that help people "in Jesus's name".

 

No one said it's easy, accepting another's point of view (much less, living with the consequences when those views make an impact on our lives). But, when things don't go my way, the response I'm working towards is more like: despite less-than-ideal circumstances (in other words, living in a world that isn't MY ideal), how can I triumph?

 

I suppose for most people the answer is either to change your circumstances or bite your lip and keep on truckin'. It seems to me that people from both camps (believer and non) use either-or, depending on their personal makeup.

 

Anyway, thanks for the respectful discussion, Mr. Scorpio. I think you're awesome and smart. I hope one day, even if you don't necessarily agree with their spiritually-based beliefs, you'll be able to respect the person behind the religious belief, and gain empathy for their position.

 

Likewise my friend. I would like to think I am already able to respect the person. Some of my favorite people in my life are Christian. Same with the empathy. Thanks for your civility.