Do you really hate "religion"...

[truthbetold]

Wow, thank you for this. I am just a protective father, and you should be able to post your opinions without me getting butthurt about it. I was clearly projecting due to my overprotectiveness of my daughter and TFW was right to call me on it. It is okay to disagree, no need to stop discussing things. I really appreciate the shout out.

Best,

Grumps

 

And thank you for your kind return in reaching out. I'll bet your daughter is beautiful and kind, as the beautiful soul you display here! And thanks, but I don't wanna discuss this topic anymore. The energy and passion exerted. And to still get misinterpreted! Nope, it really is as St. Francis says in essence teach the gospel always, only use words when necessary. Can't do that on a forum, especially about religion. and I understand protection, I'm a mom too!

 

This may have turned a corner.......

 

Awww. Group hug! {{{everyone}}} I maintain, what unites us far exceeds what divides us. Peace to all.

Edited March 25, 2014 by truthbetold

[GorillaTheater]

I also apologize to Gorilla, I think you misconstrued my intentions as well with one of the posts.

 

We're cool. It can be a tough subject to discuss unemotionally. Obviously.

[GorillaTheater]

Nevermind. Looks like the problem was taken care of.

Edited March 25, 2014 by GorillaTheater

[crederer]

I don't think this is true at all. You see ridiculous amounts of hate towards Islam and Jews. You're probably christian so just notice it more when christianity is attacked.

[UpwardForward]

I don't think this is true at all. You see ridiculous amounts of hate towards Islam and Jews. You're probably christian so just notice it more when christianity is attacked.

 

There is no convincing evidence that Islam is a religion of Peace!

[Emilia]

There is no convincing evidence that Islam is a religion of Peace!

Well Christianity isn't one either so no worries there. I assume you have heard of the Crusades? Or pretty much any of the major wars the US participates in? Christianity and Islam are conquering religions, hence the global conflict.

[UpwardForward]

Well Christianity isn't one either so no worries there. I assume you have heard of the Crusades? Or pretty much any of the major wars the US participates in? Christianity and Islam are conquering religions, hence the global conflict.

 

Not to deliberately kill the innocent.

 

Islam thinks there is reward in killing.

[Emilia]

Not to deliberately kill the innocent.

 

Islam thinks there is reward in killing.

Are you kidding me? Have you actually heard of the Crusades? Are you aware of what the drone attacks are doing in the tribal areas of Pakistan? Do you know what the proudly Christian Nazis did against the Jews during WWII? If that was not deliberate killing of the innocent I don't know what was.

[UpwardForward]

Are you kidding me? Have you actually heard of the Crusades? Are you aware of what the drone attacks are doing in the tribal areas of Pakistan? Do you know what the proudly Christian Nazis did against the Jews during WWII? If that was not deliberate killing of the innocent I don't know what was.

 

I'm not answering for those who called themselves 'Christians', but weren't.

[Mr Scorpio]

There is no convincing evidence that Islam is a religion of Peace!

 

There is no convincing evidence that God(s) exist. If there were, there would be no atheists.

 

Not to deliberately kill the innocent.

Islam thinks there is reward in killing.

 

I would describe many of the people that the Christian God condemns to death as being "innocent".

 

I'm not answering for those who called themselves 'Christians', but weren't.

 

I don't blame you for that. However, that doesn't change the fact that Christianity played a major role in the demonization of Jews that lead to the Holocaust. Does this mean Christians are bad people? No.

 

Does this mean that it is unwise for people to act on beliefs for which there is no objective evidence? In my opinion, yes it does.

[UpwardForward]

Perfectionism of this world happened by plan of The Creator and could never happen by accident.

 

Artifacts are being unearthed all the time to back Biblical incidents.

[Mr Scorpio]

Faith-based people are simply expressing their views just like non faith-based, so I think it would be fair to either say both are oppressive, or both are non oppressive. This was most of my point, I could say easily that those who don't agree with my views are the oppressors- it's just human nature.

 

Oppressive is defined as "unjustly inflicting hardship and restraint". I bring that up to be clear, not to be condescending.

 

Now, some faith-based people express their views by attempting to enact measures that inflict restraint (e.g. -- prohibitions against gay marriage, contraception, abortion, teaching of sex-ed, evolution, stem-cell research, etc).

 

However, to them this is not oppressive because it is not unjust. To them, they are following the commands of an omnipotent and omniscient being who is the source of all justice, and who has commanded these things.

 

At the same time, some non-believers look at this and see no rational reason for prohibiting these actions. They see faith-based folks imposing their beliefs -- for which there is no evidence in the mind of the atheist -- onto others.

 

And yes, a faith-based person could argue that atheists -- by making it more difficult for Christians to practice their faith -- are oppressors.

 

However, it seems to me that prohibiting people from being married, or freely expressing their sexuality in their own bedrooms, or stopping scientific advancement that could cure disease, has a much more tangible oppressive effect than stopping a city-hall from paying homage to Jesus. A Christian is free to worship in general.

 

Furthermore, I would argue that the restraints placed upon Christians via the establishment clause are perfectly just. After all, is government intermeddling with religion not the reason some Europeans came here in the first place?

 

Of course, I can understand the Christian perspective here (or I think I can). What is the "suffering" of sinners who cannot marry against the eternal-torment of hell? If Christians don't do as they are commanded, hell awaits. If I believed -- truly believed -- what the bible seems to instruct, I sure as hell wouldn't be disobeying it either.

[pureinheart]

Wow, thank you for this. I am just a protective father, and you should be able to post your opinions without me getting butthurt about it. I was clearly projecting due to my overprotectiveness of my daughter and TFW was right to call me on it. It is okay to disagree, no need to stop discussing things. I really appreciate the shout out.

Best,

Grumps

 

G, last night I went into some deep thought and prayer (hope that's ok, meaning the prayer thing) concerning your daughter and GT's son. Having family myself that is gay I really want understanding. Please know this is from my perceptive, Christian perspective.

 

Being so tired after a post to GT describing how the masses view things rather than on an individual basis, just wanted to expand on that.

 

I think there is a misperception that takes place when Christians or evangelicals use Scriptures, especially on the gay issue.

 

Hoping this comes out right:) I wonder if God is not speaking certain Words on a governmental level, rather than to the individual. Now this is not to say that a particular issue is not "sin" per se, but to God sin is sin, any sin separates us (even with the Christian, which illustrates the need for Jesus).

 

I wonder if He was/is speaking to the leaders and laws of nations. I know for fact (based on Scripture) that a Christian gay individual will still go to go to heaven, IF in fact they are truly saved…then I guess the question would be why continue to practice "sin". I practice sin that I've not yet been delivered from, meaning I'm choosing to sin. Some sin I like at times and other times don't like it.

 

In remembering going to a Christian restoration group, they told me the first thing I needed to deal with was smoking- everyone was on my case about that. God told me that smoking was the last thing to be concerned with at that point, it was my heart that was the real problem.

 

Sometimes we deal with the symptoms and not the real problem. Smoking was a symptom to some very deep issues.

 

I'm asking this about the governmental interpretation of Scripture because I don't trip concerning the individual, but know in my heart that when it hits a governmental level a lot doesn't feel right. If someone could explain this, that would be great.

 

G and GT, I know God has a heart after your daughter and son…I am experiencing a deep love right now:)…I mean really deep, it's taking me into the Spirit big time.

[Mr Scorpio]

Perfectionism of this world happened by plan of The Creator and could never happen by accident.

 

The world isn't perfect my friend.

 

Artifacts are being unearthed all the time to back Biblical incidents.

 

Interesting stuff, that. However, you could dig up the entire ark tomorrow and it wouldn't prove the existence of God. It would prove that someone built a boat, and that perhaps a great flood happened (as many religions have claimed), but it wouldn't prove the existence of God.

 

However, that isn't the topic of this thread of course.

[xxoo]

I'm not answering for those who called themselves 'Christians', but weren't.

 

I know many peaceful Muslims who would say the same about your comments on the nature of Islam.

[UpwardForward]

The world isn't perfect my friend.

 

.

 

The world was created perfect, until sin came in.

 

How could one refute orig design of the world, and it's inhabitants. As compared to outside notions.

[UpwardForward]

I know many peaceful Muslims who would say the same about your comments on the nature of Islam.

 

They would say terrorists and stoners/beheaders/killers representing Islam - are not of Islam?

[xxoo]

They would say terrorists and stoners/beheaders/killers representing Islam - are not of Islam?

 

They would say that those people are misinterpreting and misrepresenting Islam.

 

Terrorists and stoners, et al. are extremists, just as people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of Christianity are extremists.

[Mr Scorpio]

The world was created perfect, until sin came in. How could one refute orig design of the world, and it's inhabitants. As compared to outside notions.

 

Personally, I look at what we know about the Earth's history. We know that the Earth has experienced countless asteroid/comet impacts, volcanos, earthquakes, and floods. We also know that disease has existed for thousands of years. To me, this does not sound like a perfect place to live.

 

Thus, anything that is contrary to this general idea that such conditions have been fairly consistent for thousands, or millions, of years is an outside notion.

 

So, to me, it becomes impossible to believe -- without evidence no less -- that humans used to live for hundreds of years, without pain, in a garden of milk and honey, until someone bit into an apple.

 

A fine story on the virtues of abstinence, but an accurate historical account of the Earth? I do not believe so.

 

Terrorists and stoners, et al. are extremists, just as people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of Christianity are extremists.

 

And it so happens that most extremists of this vein act on the basis of irrational beliefs. This provides a fine answer to the OP.

[pureinheart]

Oppressive is defined as "unjustly inflicting hardship and restraint". I bring that up to be clear, not to be condescending.

 

Now, some faith-based people express their views by attempting to enact measures that inflict restraint (e.g. -- prohibitions against gay marriage, contraception, abortion, teaching of sex-ed, evolution, stem-cell research, etc).

 

However, to them this is not oppressive because it is not unjust. To them, they are following the commands of an omnipotent and omniscient being who is the source of all justice, and who has commanded these things.

 

At the same time, some non-believers look at this and see no rational reason for prohibiting these actions. They see faith-based folks imposing their beliefs -- for which there is no evidence in the mind of the atheist -- onto others.

 

And yes, a faith-based person could argue that atheists -- by making it more difficult for Christians to practice their faith -- are oppressors.

 

However, it seems to me that prohibiting people from being married, or freely expressing their sexuality in their own bedrooms, or stopping scientific advancement that could cure disease, has a much more tangible oppressive effect than stopping a city-hall from paying homage to Jesus. A Christian is free to worship in general.

 

Furthermore, I would argue that the restraints placed upon Christians via the establishment clause are perfectly just. After all, is government intermeddling with religion not the reason some Europeans came here in the first place?

 

Of course, I can understand the Christian perspective here (or I think I can). What is the "suffering" of sinners who cannot marry against the eternal-torment of hell? If Christians don't do as they are commanded, hell awaits. If I believed -- truly believed -- what the bible seems to instruct, I sure as hell wouldn't be disobeying it either.

 

Wow Mr.S, this is a thoughtful post! Hoping I can address all points..lol.

 

Like expressing to G, I'm still wondering if God is not speaking on a governmental level. It's very important to understand who and what God is speaking to, otherwise His Words get taken out of context more so than not.

 

Sometimes people oppose these things, both secular and faith-based (abortion and your quoted list above). Concerning some of the items, I understand why God warns against certain things as they are either unhealthy or inhumane. I could touch on each one of them giving my personal views, but want to address your entire post.

 

Looking at an overall view of Atheism, I don't see them as oppressive per se, I just see them as a "challenger" in the courts.

 

Bold- I oppose gay marriage in terms of governmental, I don't care what the gay person does outside of that. Because this is the current line of discussion, I see it to be an unhealthy life style and see many other major issues as unhealthy life style also- not just gay people.

 

Stem cell research is a slippery slope IMO. Personally, I have no problem with it, just don't kill babies to do it- that is inhumane IMO. In adults this has been going on for quite sometime without loss of life.

 

LOL, I'm a "once saved always saved" Christian. I don't believe a Christian can lose their salvation if they have truly accepted Jesus…many would disagree, although this is one of the first exhaustive studies that I did …and actually still remember it:laugh: So I am only driven by being obedient to God (and this is not to say that those who feel they can lose their salvation aren't obedience driven).

 

You know, I'm divided on the government meddling thing and reasons as to why our ancestors fled Europe and how that relates to the present. I kind of take it as it is. The government is in it, so as long as I have a voice, I'm ok with that:)

 

Oh an, cool link!

[Mr Scorpio]

Like expressing to G, I'm still wondering if God is not speaking on a governmental level. It's very important to understand who and what God is speaking to, otherwise His Words get taken out of context more so than not.

 

I can understand how whether or not God is speaking on a governmental level would be relevant to your analysis. However, for someone who doesn't even believe in God, it doesn't matter what Christians believe in this regard.

 

Whether God is speaking on a "governmental level" (though I'm not sure what you mean by this) or to his followers, the result is the same: Christians attempting to legislate the rights of others on the basis of beliefs for which atheists see no evidence.

 

You know, I'm divided on the government meddling thing and reasons as to why our ancestors fled Europe and how that relates to the present. I kind of take it as it is. The government is in it, so as long as I have a voice, I'm ok with that:)

 

I believe that, as a Christian, there are better reasons for you to oppose governmental meddling than the threat of that government turning against you. From the words of a Christian-pastor:

 

Gregory Boyd on "The Myth of a Christian Nation" Part 1/3 - YouTube

[pureinheart]

They would say that those people are misinterpreting and misrepresenting Islam.

 

Terrorists and stoners, et al. are extremists, just as people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of Christianity are extremists.

 

Maybe you can help me with this? Or another member, as I really need understanding.

 

I've read portions of the Quran and do understand that there are moderates and extremists- there seems to be this fact with everything unfortunately.

 

My understanding is that at some point, if it ever came to this point, that moderates would have to make a decision if in fact Islam and the Quran are one in the same. Is this correct? I honestly don't know.

[xxoo]

Maybe you can help me with this? Or another member, as I really need understanding.

 

I've read portions of the Quran and do understand that there are moderates and extremists- there seems to be this fact with everything unfortunately.

 

My understanding is that at some point, if it ever came to this point, that moderates would have to make a decision if in fact Islam and the Quran are one in the same. Is this correct? I honestly don't know.

 

 

From what I understand, the Quran can be interpreted in different ways, just as the Bible can and is. Both books have examples of violence, as well as calls for peace.

 

I haven't read this entire website, but this first page gives some idea about the different ways the Quran can be interpreted, and why many believe the calls for violence were limited to a situation and time period long ago:

 

http://www.islamforpeace.org/quran.html

Edited March 26, 2014 by xxoo

[pureinheart]

From what I understand, the Quran can be interpreted in different ways, just as the Bible can and is. Both books have examples of violence, as well as calls for peace.

 

I haven't read this entire website, but this first page gives some idea about the different ways the Quran can be interpreted, and why many believe the calls for violence were limited to a situation and time period long ago:

 

ISLAM for peace

 

Thanks XO …lol, I thought of asking you (or anyone) if extremists were taking portions of the Quran out of context to fit their own agenda, but you picked up on that...

 

It had me a bit concerned should Islam ever become prevalent here in America because we'd all be wiped out. Some of us are infidels, some gays…and think you get the point:)

 

Islam is growing by leaps and bounds all over the world, so I'm hoping it's the moderate version that's growing!

[xxoo]

Thanks XO …lol, I thought of asking you (or anyone) if extremists were taking portions of the Quran out of context to fit their own agenda, but you picked up on that...

 

It had me a bit concerned should Islam ever become prevalent here in America because we'd all be wiped out. Some of us are infidels, some gays…and think you get the point:)

 

Islam is growing by leaps and bounds all over the world, so I'm hoping it's the moderate version that's growing!

 

Because of where I live, I have the opportunity to meet, work with, and have my children go to school with Muslim individuals here in the US. The people we meet are definitely of the peaceful, moderate version, usually distressed to learn how Islam is seen as a violent religion by many Americans. They understand that violent extremists are causing that, but that is not how they experience and enjoy their religion.

 

Hopefully, by growing up side by side in the classroom and the neighborhood, my kids and their Muslim classmates will have a much better understanding of each other's religions as adults than today's adults have The diversity in their classrooms is a huge blessing, imo!