Do you really hate "religion"...

[Allumere]

Old testament bans all types of homosexuality. God also told the man and woman to marry, and be fruitful and multiply. Matthew 19:4. He that made them in the beginning made them male and female. etc etc

 

Whether one agrees with the translation or interpretation of Leviticus, as a Christian are you not suppose to pray for them and their repentance so that they may have salvation? I'm not getting that vibe.

 

(I know this doesn't jive with other folks on here....I am approaching Christian to Christian)

Edited March 25, 2014 by Allumere

[UpwardForward]

Instructions to warn: Ezekiel 3:20-21; Ezekiel 33:7-9; (and others)

[Keenly]

Instructions to warn: Ezekiel 3:20-21; Ezekiel 33:7-9; (and others)

 

 

Lets have some fun U&F.

 

Exodus 21:21

 

""If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

 

 

So from this we can deduce one of two things about you.

 

Either A) you believe people are property, and you also believe that beating them is okay, because its your property.

 

 

or B) You are a hypocrite, and you like to pick and choose what you take out of the bible to live by and follow.

 

 

 

Or let me guess.... I twisted that quote around some how....even though its from "BibleHub.com"

[truthbetold]

And what I don't get is why you even give a tinker's damn whether a gay couple you don't even know calls what they have a marriage, or a civil union, or an artichoke. Seriously, how does that affect you and your world in the slightest? Suppose they are "making a mockery of God" by calling it marriage. What on earth does that have to do with you? How can that have any bearing on you, the meaning of your faith in your life, or anything else with the vaguest, most tangential connection to you?

 

I give a "tinker's damn" because it destroys what was set up as God's. God put us here not "society" and not a bunch of apes. (perhaps some came from apes can't speak for all!) I could give you a litany of scripture that definitely condemns homosexuality marriages. Jesus at Cana, that was the place of his first miracle. He chose a 'wedding feast" to exemplify the sacredness of the unity of a man and woman. Because of their ability to pro-create gives them a "taste" of God's love for mankind and the power of creation. It was set up that way from the beginning.

 

And no, God never intended for polygamy. That happened after the fall, it wasn't God's original design. Jesus came back and said pretty plainly and the apostles reiterated in their letters, that marriage is a sacred union between one man and one woman. God destroyed Sodom because of the homosexuality. That isn't "just" scripture it was tradition. It is in other writings from early Christians as well. There will always be pagans that will disagree, even in these times. Still doesn't make the pagans right.

 

I actually read a blog by a gay man who said God destroyed Sodom because of people being unkind to each other and then further rationalized that prostitution and adultery may have also been culprits. Point is homosexual activists will reach to any straws to defend their position.

 

Homosexuals cannot create life. God loves all true, but God hates sin. Here's another fascinating tidbit for you anti-Christians. SIN is nothing more than accepting less than what God wants from you. That's it, folks. No mean, habit wearing nun beating you into submission in a corner to God's holy will. That's a fallacy perpetuated from Jansenism. (look it up if you're so inclined) Sin, is nothing more than something that separates you from God's love. God is LOVE. But by his design. And it's freeing not oppressing.

 

 

Whether one agrees with the translation or interpretation of Leviticus, as a Christian are you not suppose to pray for them and their repentance so that they may have salvation? I'm not getting that vibe.

 

(I know this doesn't jive with other folks on here....I am approaching Christian to Christian)

 

Yes, exactly. I do not HATE anyone. I don't try to convert anyone. That's up to God. I pray for people privately. I am a witness by my everyday actions and kindness and do unto others. That doesn't mean be a doormat to society's whims though. I have a responsibility to uphold what is right and moral, who decides that? God's word and sacred tradition.

 

And I don't follow anything blindly. What I did find out though, is when I took charge of my life and thought I was my total Captain of the ship with my decisions and not consulting God will for my life. My life was pretty screwed up, and filled with heart ache and disappointment. When I turned my life over and live for him, it's a world of difference. I have joy, and peace. And he has opened my world and blessed me in ways I couldn't have dreamed possible.

 

So yeah, I think there's something great about following God's plan. In a nutshell: me, and my selfish wants = screwed up life. Following God and his will and plan = awesome life. He fills my hearts desire and I actually feel more complete because I am more joined to he who created me. Those of us that have that, of course want to share with others, it would be selfish not to.

 

We are called to help one another in this journey called life. That's why it matters to me, because it matters to God.

 

Oh, and the ludicrous findings that animals are naturally gay.

 

The animal homosexuality myth

[truthbetold]

Lets have some fun U&F.

 

Exodus 21:21

 

""If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

 

 

So from this we can deduce one of two things about you.

 

Either A) you believe people are property, and you also believe that beating them is okay, because its your property.

 

 

or B) You are a hypocrite, and you like to pick and choose what you take out of the bible to live by and follow.

 

 

 

Or let me guess.... I twisted that quote around some how....even though its from "BibleHub.com"

 

I'll answer if I may. People are NEVER property. Life is sacred to God and nothing should ever be done to reduce a human to a "thing" or to be used or to lose their dignity ever.

 

First, slavery is a social idea. Didn't come from God. God "allowed" it because he gives free will. Doesn't mean God condones it. It's after the fall, men had hardened hearts. Just like when Jesus says the law of Moses allowed men to divorce etc...because of THEIR hardened hearts, not God's plan. Jesus took it back to one man and one women, God's original plan for marriage.

 

God can be described as "Every Good, and every God thing Perfected." So God is incapable of any injustice. PERIOD.

 

Consider the source of slavery in the OT. Most often they were captives who were PERMITTED to live as an option to sure and certain death.

 

Second, we see that God allowed Abraham's descendents to go slavery for hundreds of years just to show His love and power and desire to redeem them from slavery. And, it was well-suited as an experience to crystallize their hope and trust in God. And prepare them for the true redeemer, Christ. God always works for the good, in every circumstance. Man is the cause of ALL acts of violence, not God.

 

If someone owed money to someone and was in a debtor's prison for inability to pay, someone could approach their wife and offer to "Redeem" them out of prison for the price of the debt in return for their servitude for an agreed upon period of time. He would pay, they would get out of prison and be his slave for the agreed upon period of time. Doing so was not only a business transaction but in so far as they was let out of prison, an act of mercy.

 

In the past, it was used to pay a debt or deal with an enemy population. Their were enemies in each camp, Israelites and Canaanites, and in the OT there is the Retributive Theology which is reward for goodness and punishment for wickedness.

 

In the fullness of Time, Jesus Christ revealed the fullness of Truth, the Way and the Life in the New Testament. The Theology of Love.

 

In the NT slavery wasn't condemned per se because it was a "social" idea, not one of the Church, the Church tried to do the best they could with men's free will and have guidelines, to always treat a person with human dignity.

 

This was a far cry with American slavery, which was intrinsically evil, but again did not come from God, no more than the wars do. God was always with those slaves giving them comfort evidenced by the hope he graced them with in singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot". They knew where their "home" was. And truly THAT is what mattered. However the Church was vehemently opposed to that slavery from it's inception, it tore apart families and stripped those of human dignity.

 

Since you pulled out scripture, I can do the same.

 

Col.4: 1 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." JESUS who is unchangeable taught justice for even one's slaves.

 

Jer.25: 14 "For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them; and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."

 

Now one can see that "ALLOW / PERMIT" are very far from CAUSING this evil.

 

[isaiah 55: 8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

 

And that about sums it up. Ours with our finite knowledge base are never going to fully understand was is infinite. All we know is God is good evidenced in every day life if you look for it. If you look for the injustice (again caused from humans not God) and the atrocities and horrors, then sure you will find those too, but it doesn't make God not good in all ways to those of us that believe.

 

I actually do my research and know exactly why I believe what I do with a huge helping of faith no doubt, do you? or do you just like to spew hate?

[Madman81]

My daughter is not a sin and she has a gf. My little girl is the sweetest, most wonderful being on the planet. This is why Christians are hated....they take a negative and invasive stance in the things that for some of us are beautiful about the world. Loving anyone is a gift. She gave hers to someone worthy of her love and that someone isn't a dude, so what? Since she isn't religious either, but very accepting of all people and religions, she feels hurt that she is seen as an abnormality. Makes a father very angry, but still I do not hate. I just wonder why loving someone of the same gender is more egregious than domestic violence or child abuse which aren't considered sins.

She was born this way and she is perfect,

Grumps

My youngest sister is a lesbian, came out about 14 years ago when she was 17. I was the one she chose to come out to first among our family members. It wasn't what I expected to hear her say at that moment; it took me by surprise at first, though in hindsight it shouldn't have because she'd always exhibited certain characteristics (what can I say, I have pathetic gay-dar); then it made complete sense. We chatted for a bit longer, I assured her I was completely cool with who she was, and on we went.

 

I remember that my parents were initially terrified by this. Not because of the revelation of who she was, but because of the suddenly radically amplified likelihood of their little girl being on the receiving end of violence, hate, bigotry and judgment from self-righteous, paleolithic, small-minded idiots. Luckily she's been largely (though not completely) safe from those things; it helps that she's brilliant, very self-assured, and can stand up for herself when she has to. Others she knows haven't been so lucky.

 

So yes, this issue is an excellent example of why we atheists have so little patience for evangelical Christians: you make it your mission to hurt and marginalize people we love with your words, accusations and judgments, people who have never done anything to you or to anybody you care about. All because you've chosen to follow very selectively and strategically chosen sections from a 2,000 year old book whose existence predates modern English and science, which has been translated and re-translated countless times, and whose actual meaning is open to massive debate even among those who believe in it.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Madman81

[truthbetold]

Here's another thought about the justifying animals "do it" for the anti-Christian argument. Because they can take my link and say, yeah of course, it's written from a theological perspective so of course, I have an agenda. Not like the anti-Christian doesn't with the numerous links, but I digress.

 

The people who see homosexual activity in animals are no more correct than those who think their dog thinks it human. It's called anthropomorphizing, interpreting something animals do by assuming they have the same purpose in mind as humans. Just because something looks like it would be gay sex if humans were doing it doesn't mean that the animals are doing so for the same purpose. It's more likely they are just establishing a chain of dominance (pecking order).

 

but let's just humor the anti Christian stance shall we? (stupid argument to bring animals into it, for people who are supposedly so much more intellectually superior,but I digress again!)

 

Even if it were the case that animals behaved in a homosexual manner, that means nothing as far as the morality of gay sex. Chimpanzees murder each other. Should we justify murder because chimpanzees do it? Should we eat our young because they are weaker? Animals do lots of stupid things, I had a Golden who used to come up behind my son's Lion King chair (it had ears) and hump on it. We are better than the animals, at least in theory. We have the advantage of God's revelation to tell us what is right and what is wrong.

[truthbetold]

My youngest sister is a lesbian, came out about 14 years ago when she was 17. I was the one she chose to come out to first among our family members. It wasn't what I expected to hear her say at that moment; it took me by surprise at first, though in hindsight it shouldn't have because she'd always exhibited certain characteristics (what can I say, I have pathetic gay-dar); then it made complete sense. We chatted for a bit longer, I assured her I was completely cool with who she was, and on we went.

 

I remember that my parents were initially terrified by this. Not because of the revelation of who she was, but because of the suddenly radically amplified likelihood of their little girl being on the receiving end of violence, hate, bigotry and judgment from self-righteous, paleolithic, small-minded idiots. Luckily she's been largely (though not completely) safe from those things; it helps that she's brilliant, very self-assured, and can stand up for herself when she has to. Others she knows haven't been so lucky.

 

So yes, this issue is an excellent example of why we atheists have so little patience for evangelical Christians: you make it your mission to hurt and marginalize people we love with your words, accusations and judgments, people who have never done anything to you or to anybody you care about. All because you've chosen to follow very selectively and strategically chosen sections from a 2,000 year old book whose existence predates modern English and science, which has been translated and re-translated countless times, and whose actual meaning is open to massive debate even among those who believe in it.

 

I've disagreed with this until....whatever, I've disagreed. Jesus is love, so I love all others, even enemies, I hate no one, I am KIND to everyone, even people who may not deserve it.

 

What have I seen in this thread? Exactly what you're saying Christians do. The mocking, the belittling (have no brains, intellectually stupid, etc... etc...) how is that any better?

 

Seriously do you have an answer? I've answered I follow nothing blindly I did my homework, I've actually read more than just scripture. I have a science background and from my experience (and many others) science PROVES God, the only one's who DON'T want to see that are the ones with the anti-Christian agenda.

 

Do you realize you're hurting people with your comments? They may not say it, and we have better ways of coping with the injustice (taking it to the cross) because we know that we are blessed for being persecuted in his name. Like I said my life was utter crap when I wasn't following the teachings and going my own way. It's so much more, now that I am in line with it. I can only surmise it's because I am following what was imprinted on my very soul. I am at peace, are you?

[pureinheart]

I give a "tinker's damn" because it destroys what was set up as God's. God put us here not "society" and not a bunch of apes. (perhaps some came from apes can't speak for all!) I could give you a litany of scripture that definitely condemns homosexuality marriages. Jesus at Cana, that was the place of his first miracle. He chose a 'wedding feast" to exemplify the sacredness of the unity of a man and woman. Because of their ability to pro-create gives them a "taste" of God's love for mankind and the power of creation. It was set up that way from the beginning.

And no, God never intended for polygamy. That happened after the fall, it wasn't God's original design. Jesus came back and said pretty plainly and the apostles reiterated in their letters, that marriage is a sacred union between one man and one woman. God destroyed Sodom because of the homosexuality. That isn't "just" scripture it was tradition. It is in other writings from early Christians as well. There will always be pagans that will disagree, even in these times. Still doesn't make the pagans right.

 

I actually read a blog by a gay man who said God destroyed Sodom because of people being unkind to each other and then further rationalized that prostitution and adultery may have also been culprits. Point is homosexual activists will reach to any straws to defend their position.

 

Homosexuals cannot create life. God loves all true, but God hates sin. Here's another fascinating tidbit for you anti-Christians. SIN is nothing more than accepting less than what God wants from you. That's it, folks. No mean, habit wearing nun beating you into submission in a corner to God's holy will. That's a fallacy perpetuated from Jansenism. (look it up if you're so inclined) Sin, is nothing more than something that separates you from God's love. God is LOVE. But by his design. And it's freeing not oppressing.

 

 

 

 

Yes, exactly. I do not HATE anyone. I don't try to convert anyone. That's up to God. I pray for people privately. I am a witness by my everyday actions and kindness and do unto others. That doesn't mean be a doormat to society's whims though. I have a responsibility to uphold what is right and moral, who decides that? God's word and sacred tradition.

 

And I don't follow anything blindly. What I did find out though, is when I took charge of my life and thought I was my total Captain of the ship with my decisions and not consulting God will for my life. My life was pretty screwed up, and filled with heart ache and disappointment. When I turned my life over and live for him, it's a world of difference. I have joy, and peace. And he has opened my world and blessed me in ways I couldn't have dreamed possible.

 

So yeah, I think there's something great about following God's plan. In a nutshell: me, and my selfish wants = screwed up life. Following God and his will and plan = awesome life. He fills my hearts desire and I actually feel more complete because I am more joined to he who created me. Those of us that have that, of course want to share with others, it would be selfish not to.

 

We are called to help one another in this journey called life. That's why it matters to me, because it matters to God.

 

Oh, and the ludicrous findings that animals are naturally gay.

 

The animal homosexuality myth

 

That is powerful and don't remember any teaching that brought this fact out in quite this way.

 

The gay lifestyle seems to be one of Gods bottom lines. I don't understand why exactly. There seems to be a deeper understanding that hasn't been reached. If it were me, the bottom line would be abortion, yet with God abortion is only one of them. It's like a procession of things until God says enough enough.

 

I rarely give the gay lifestyle thought, it's not that important. There are gay family members that I know are saved, I've seen their hearts- so I just don't know on this one- thinking a major study is in order on that note.

 

What opened my eyes was watching one of my gay friends from HS pass away from HIV. He went through hell and back, also there are friends (gay and straight) currently infected and I think some family members have it, but are not telling anyone- which that in it's own right is scary.

[Madman81]

Leviticus 18:22 (King James) warns against laying with mankind /womankind. Other translations spell out: homosexuality.

 

Other passages as well.

Here's a list of other admonitions from Leviticus, which you've just quoted as authority for your view that homosexuality is a sin.

 

1. Death penalty for taking God's name in vain (Lev. 24:16) -- “He who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him..."

 

2. Prohibition against eating pork (Lev. 11:7–8) -- "Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch..."

 

3. Prohibition against eating fat (Lev. 3:17)

 

4. Forbidding of hair and beard trimming (Lev. 19:27)

 

5. Prohibition against eating crab, clams, oysters (Lev. 11:9–12) -- "But anything in the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you."

 

6. Death penalty for adultery (Lev. 20:10)

 

7. The profanity of disabled individuals (Lev. 21:18–23) -- “For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or a man with a defect in his sights or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles; no man of the descendants of Aaron the priest who has a blemish shall come near to offer the Lord’s offerings by fire; since he has a blemish, he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God… He shall not come near the veil or approach the altar, because he has a blemish, that he may not profane my sanctuaries…”

 

8. Others (Lev. 19:19) -- “Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.”

 

How many of these do you follow in your own life, or cleave to as God's word?

[truthbetold]

That is powerful and don't remember any teaching that brought this fact out in quite this way.

 

The gay lifestyle seems to be one of Gods bottom lines. I don't understand why exactly. There seems to be a deeper understanding that hasn't been reached. If it were me, the bottom line would be abortion, yet with God abortion is only one of them. It's like a procession of things until God says enough enough.

 

I rarely give the gay lifestyle thought, it's not that important. There are gay family members that I know are saved, I've seen their hearts- so I just don't know on this one- thinking a major study is in order on that note.

 

What opened my eyes was watching one of my gay friends from HS pass away from HIV. He went through hell and back, also there are friends (gay and straight) currently infected and I think some family members have it, but are not telling anyone- which that in it's own right is scary.

 

Yeah, it's really cool! It's so cool how God reveals himself to those that ask. My marriage is....well I'm contemplating starting a thread (I decided to not do the one I told you about for obvious reasons!) on Christian marriage and how putting God at the center let's you literally feel his power and love when you are totally one flesh, which is a taste of heaven on earth:love: It's beyond words, and I so want to share, but seeing the hate in this thread....We'll see.

 

From the latest "madmen" ravings of pulling out scripture and in no way clearly understanding a whit about it....I'm leaving the thread. I could refute every single stupid, ignorant thing said...but eh, they aren't listening anyway....just too filled with hate I guess. Their ignorance truly speaks clearly though. Crystal.

 

As they say Pure, "if you hear the voice of God today...harden not your heart":love: Peace and blessings (and thanks for the prayers, still a hold out on the "great" news but I feel it coming, I'm being tested in patience but seriously even the test has been awesome because it's working for the good! I will have a thread on that at the appropriate time, but the other. We'll see.

[ThaWholigan]

As someone who is neither Athiest nor religious, I don't think either party (athiest or Christians) has completely acquitted themselves or taken part in this discussion in a particularly appropriate way apart from a few. It is typical of the kind of religious discussions that I observe, and usually why I tend not to partake in them, I say my piece and leave it at that.

 

I don't hold out hope that there will be an understanding, especially not in this thread!

[GorillaTheater]

From the latest "madmen" ravings of pulling out scripture and in no way clearly understanding a whit about it....I'm leaving the thread. I could refute every single stupid, ignorant thing said...but eh, they aren't listening anyway....just too filled with hate I guess. Their ignorance truly speaks clearly though. Crystal.

 

This is pretty dismissive of the point Madman and I (and others) have both made on various threads, and I think it's a pretty important point: either we're still subject to Mosaic law or we're not. And if we are, I'm pretty hard-pressed to craft an argument how we're only subject to some of the law but not all of it (i.e., dietary laws, etc.). Can you come up with one?

 

Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality that I'm aware of. Paul had a bit to say on the subject, but he also had things to say about men with long hair, women with short hair, and people from Crete (that wasn't too flattering). So even in the New Testament, you have to do some picking and choosing.

[pureinheart]

Here's a list of other admonitions from Leviticus, which you've just quoted as authority for your view that homosexuality is a sin.

 

1. Death penalty for taking God's name in vain (Lev. 24:16) -- “He who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him..."

 

2. Prohibition against eating pork (Lev. 11:7–8) -- "Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch..."

 

3. Prohibition against eating fat (Lev. 3:17)

 

4. Forbidding of hair and beard trimming (Lev. 19:27)

 

5. Prohibition against eating crab, clams, oysters (Lev. 11:9–12) -- "But anything in the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you."

 

6. Death penalty for adultery (Lev. 20:10)

 

7. The profanity of disabled individuals (Lev. 21:18–23) -- “For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or a man with a defect in his sights or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles; no man of the descendants of Aaron the priest who has a blemish shall come near to offer the Lord’s offerings by fire; since he has a blemish, he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God… He shall not come near the veil or approach the altar, because he has a blemish, that he may not profane my sanctuaries…”

 

8. Others (Lev. 19:19) -- “Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.”

 

How many of these do you follow in your own life, or cleave to as God's word?

 

LOL MM, there are 62 volumes alone teaching how and why to keep the Sabbath holy. Look at all of the laws (I can't speak for Canada) in the US- I think we've lost count. I think it's mans way to have "corrective action" when something fails. Like my former job for instance. They jumped of the corrective action band wagon…by the end of the program, a simple job that took maybe a couple of hours to complete, ended up taking up to 3 days after all of the rules and regs.

 

This is where I think God has a sense of humor, man loves laws- so we got what we asked for:laugh:

[Madman81]

I've disagreed with this until....whatever, I've disagreed. Jesus is love, so I love all others, even enemies, I hate no one, I am KIND to everyone, even people who may not deserve it.

 

What have I seen in this thread? Exactly what you're saying Christians do. The mocking, the belittling (have no brains, intellectually stupid, etc... etc...) how is that any better?

 

Seriously do you have an answer? I've answered I follow nothing blindly I did my homework, I've actually read more than just scripture. I have a science background and from my experience (and many others) science PROVES God, the only one's who DON'T want to see that are the ones with the anti-Christian agenda.

 

Do you realize you're hurting people with your comments? They may not say it, and we have better ways of coping with the injustice (taking it to the cross) because we know that we are blessed for being persecuted in his name. Like I said my life was utter crap when I wasn't following the teachings and going my own way. It's so much more, now that I am in line with it. I can only surmise it's because I am following what was imprinted on my very soul.

Please find one comment of mine in which I've insulted Christians. And in expectation of you referencing my statement above about "the suddenly radically amplified likelihood of their little girl being on the receiving end of violence, hate, bigotry and judgment from self-righteous, paleolithic, small-minded idiots", I didn't mention Christians anywhere in that statement. There are plenty of self-righteous, paleolithic, small-minded idiots who mete out violence, hate, bigotry and judgment towards homosexuals who do so because they're neo-Nazis or garden variety homophobes, for instance. My words are a condemnation of self-righteous, paleolithic, small-minded idiots. If that doesn't describe you, then there should be no issue.

 

I am at peace, are you?

Very much so, thank you. I have a loving partner, amazing children, a great family, close friends, interests I'm passionate about, a good job, a comfortable life basically free from need, and I live in a beautiful part of this world of ours in this small corner of the universe. I'm idealistic, I'm a good person, I accept people I meet as basically decent until their words and actions demonstrate otherwise, and I continue to believe in each person's fundamental, innate capacity to be good and just. I'm a perpetual optimist, drawn towards things of beauty, towards ideas that have the capability to inspire and unite people regardless of where they live or what colour their skin is. I have an unswerving belief in humanity's capacity to accomplish great things if we can stop needlessly focusing on the things that divide us and instead dedicate ourselves to those things that bring us together. And because I'm a perpetual optimist, I believe we can bring about that change of focus.

 

And, it just so happens, I do all of this while being an atheist.

[pureinheart]

This is pretty dismissive of the point Madman and I (and others) have both made on various threads, and I think it's a pretty important point: either we're still subject to Mosaic law or we're not. And if we are, I'm pretty hard-pressed to craft an argument how we're only subject to some of the law but not all of it (i.e., dietary laws, etc.). Can you come up with one?

 

Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality that I'm aware of. Paul had a bit to say on the subject, but he also had things to say about men with long hair, women with short hair, and people from Crete (that wasn't too flattering). So even in the New Testament, you have to do some picking and choosing.

 

I remember these discussions and M30 explained this, he's good at that. If memory serves to be correct He brought up the point of dispensationalism, which I completely agree with.

 

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

What is dispensationalism? | Explain dispensationalism | dispensation | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

GT, I read these briefly, but wanted to get this out there, so I think they are a good description. My brain ran away last night, again:laugh:

 

I know it doesn't make sense, there are many things that don't make sense to me- like why can't I party:D

[Grumpybutfun]

Leviticus 18:22 (King James) warns against laying with mankind /womankind. Other translations spell out: homosexuality.

 

Other passages as well.

 

 

This isn't relevant except to Christians so .......glad I'm not a Christian. Worse things in the world than loving someone of the same sex. Your book is tedious and I've read better.

 

 

 

Pure, this is why people hate.......

 

 

G

[GorillaTheater]

I remember these discussions and M30 explained this, he's good at that. If memory serves to be correct He brought up the point of dispensationalism, which I completely agree with.

 

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

What is dispensationalism? | Explain dispensationalism | dispensation | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

GT, I read these briefly, but wanted to get this out there, so I think they are a good description. My brain ran away last night, again:laugh:

 

I know it doesn't make sense, there are many things that don't make sense to me- like why can't I party:D

 

Thanks Pure. But even with this concept of Dispensationalism, the idea of progressive revelations depending on where the historical audience is "at" (which I get), that still seems to cast doubt on the applicability of any Mosaic law, including those dealing with homosexualty.

 

This is what Ezekiel 16:49-50 has to say about Sodom and it's "smiting":

 

“Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

 

So, we have overfed, unconcerned, not helping the poor, and being haughty. Things we suck at even today and probably should be mindful of. Last on the list is doing "detestable" stuff; which could be a reference to homosexuality, but not necessarily. Whatever it is, it's preceded by things that I think we as a society should be more concerned about than who stuck what where.

[truthbetold]

This is pretty dismissive of the point Madman and I (and others) have both made on various threads, and I think it's a pretty important point: either we're still subject to Mosaic law or we're not. And if we are, I'm pretty hard-pressed to craft an argument how we're only subject to some of the law but not all of it (i.e., dietary laws, etc.). Can you come up with one?

 

Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality that I'm aware of. Paul had a bit to say on the subject, but he also had things to say about men with long hair, women with short hair, and people from Crete (that wasn't too flattering). So even in the New Testament, you have to do some picking and choosing.

 

You had to ask!? Seriously I can't take the hate anymore in this thread, but I will answer this, since you kindly asked.

 

Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he came to build upon them. The ceremonial laws were done away with. Why? because Jesus became the last "sacrifice" needed. Again, God wasn't/isn't some monster that demanded innocent animal blood to prove love or anything else for him. God needs NOTHING from us. He wants our love from free will.

 

Anyway on point, from the original sin (Adam/Eve) God made them animal cloths to wear, not the fig leaves. Why? Because in sacrificing something innocent was payment for sins. That's horrible you say...I agree, but imagine Adam and Eve standing there while God is making these animal skins for them, do you think that made them feel good to see something die? God would want people to see dying is not a good thing, it's punishment for sin. That's why all the subsequent animal sacrifices happened. For atonement for people's sins. God didn't WANT or NEED it, it was the human condition that caused it.

 

Until Christ. The perfect sacrifice, the lamb of God. THIS did away with the ceremonial laws (mosaic)

 

As far as Paul condemning long hair, women's dress etc etc....that's society's customs. That was the customs of THEIR the actual audience of THAT time, each custom can and does change with the time. Once people wore their Easter best hats, gloves, suits, ties. Now you're lucky if people show up at all let alone what they wear. It's customs. Not doctrine, not dogma.

 

HTH:) Would be nice if someone held Madman's accountable for the hate spewed on his end though. See? I act my faith, I act in kindness as best I can. Still haven't seen anyone come forward and say why it's okay to spew hate at Christians and mock our beliefs. (outdated book 2,000 year old non thinkers...on and on....) Those words hurt too.

 

I already addressed Jesus most certainly had something to say about homosexuality at Cana. People choose not to hear it. Free will and all.

[GorillaTheater]

Still haven't seen anyone come forward and say why it's okay to spew hate at Christians and mock our beliefs. (outdated book 2,000 year old non thinkers...on and on....) Those words hurt too.

 

I understand and agree. I don't hate Christianity or Christians, short of a few "Westboro" components of it.

 

I can, however, be much more critical of Islam, but we'll leave that to another time.

[Anela]

We are better than the animals, at least in theory. We have the advantage of God's revelation to tell us what is right and what is wrong.

 

I actually don't think that we are. Supposed human beings have shown over and over, just how awful they/we can be, and they try to justify their deeds no matter what.

 

Animals, who seem to get the blame for anything thought to be amoral, and disgusting, tend to kill for food only, and have been shown to love and help each other. Some will kill out of competition, but they see it as a true need to survive, like a lioness killing the cubs of another lioness - I don't like it, but are you really going to tell me that we don't have human beings who display similar traits?

 

I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin, either. I don't believe in the Bible, I just spoke up before, because I don't like the bashing either way.

[Grumpybutfun]

Lets have some fun U&F.

 

Exodus 21:21

 

""If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

 

 

So from this we can deduce one of two things about you.

 

Either A) you believe people are property, and you also believe that beating them is okay, because its your property.

 

 

or B) You are a hypocrite, and you like to pick and choose what you take out of the bible to live by and follow.

 

 

 

Or let me guess.... I twisted that quote around some how....even though its from "BibleHub.com"

 

So much is biblical that is morally wrong to me, but arguing with them is like trying to hold a rainbow in your grasp. I think pures question has been answered. Christians are tedious and hard to engage or like because what they believe is fairytales and they want us to believe in hateful fairytales also.

G

[TheFinalWord]

Here's a list of other admonitions from Leviticus, which you've just quoted as authority for your view that homosexuality is a sin.

 

1. Death penalty for taking God's name in vain (Lev. 24:16) -- “He who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him..."

 

2. Prohibition against eating pork (Lev. 11:7–8) -- "Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch..."

 

3. Prohibition against eating fat (Lev. 3:17)

 

4. Forbidding of hair and beard trimming (Lev. 19:27)

 

5. Prohibition against eating crab, clams, oysters (Lev. 11:9–12) -- "But anything in the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you."

 

6. Death penalty for adultery (Lev. 20:10)

 

7. The profanity of disabled individuals (Lev. 21:18–23) -- “For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or a man with a defect in his sights or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles; no man of the descendants of Aaron the priest who has a blemish shall come near to offer the Lord’s offerings by fire; since he has a blemish, he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God… He shall not come near the veil or approach the altar, because he has a blemish, that he may not profane my sanctuaries…”

 

8. Others (Lev. 19:19) -- “Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.”

 

How many of these do you follow in your own life, or cleave to as God's word?

 

There are Levitical laws that applied only to Israel. Attempting to correlate laws directly given to Israel to universal moral laws for all nations is spurious hermeneutics. Notice the first sentence of Leviticus 11, where dietary law is addressed:

 

"Speak to the Sons of Israel saying"

 

Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams you may eat any that have fins and scales. But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to regard as unclean. And since you are to regard them as unclean, you must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean. Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be regarded as unclean by you.

 

Notice, these laws were for Israel, specifically. In the same context, when God describes forbidden sexual practices, he directly states that Israel must not practice them and admonishes other nations for practicing them (he does not do this over shell fish):

 

“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices...

 

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion. Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the **nations** which I am casting out before you have become defiled ‘For the land has become defiled, therefore I have visited its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants. But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled); so that the land may not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you. ‘For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people. ‘Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the Lord your God.’"

 

Notice the lack of comparison with eating shellfish and God stating it was a reason these other nations were defiled. BTW these were not the only moral practices which God condemned. He also condemned, universally, including bestiality, adultery, and child sacrifice.

 

There are actually three classifications of Levitical law:

 

1) Civil: Ceased with the demise of Jewish civil government

2) Ceremonial: Ceased with the fulfillment of Christ, the Great High Priest

3) Moral: Not expired; continuity where reaffirmed in New Testament

 

In regards to the Levitical law regarding dietary customs, I refer you to Peter's vision:

 

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Edited March 25, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[TheFinalWord]

So much is biblical that is morally wrong to me, but arguing with them is like trying to hold a rainbow in your grasp. I think pures question has been answered. Christians are tedious and hard to engage or like because what they believe is fairytales and they want us to believe in hateful fairytales also.

G

 

So much is biblical that is morally wrong to me, but arguing with them is like trying to hold a rainbow in your grasp. I think pures question has been answered. Christians are tedious and hard to engage or like because what they believe is fairytales and they want us to believe in hateful fairytales also.

G

 

I have not read this whole thread, but I have always considered you to be one of the most kind posters in this forum. You seem very angry (which I know has to take a lot) which tells me this thread is not really conducive to discussion. This will be my last post here.

Edited March 25, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

This isn't relevant except to Christians so .......glad I'm not a Christian. Worse things in the world than loving someone of the same sex. Your book is tedious and I've read better.

 

 

 

Pure, this is why people hate.......

 

 

G

 

Tell me about it! I've always heard that the Bible is our "owners manual". Some parts are difficult to understand, even for the believer. This is another area where IMO God has a sense of humor in the sense, it keeps us busy and learning.

 

Some portions are meant to be warnings, which are difficult to take.

 

Thanks G, this gives me the opportunity to touch on hate. I would really ask those out there that do hate, in any form and will coin OB's (openbook) word "sobering". I would ask those to consider and research what hate actually does and how it affects every part of our beings.

 

I'm reading a book called, "Switch On Your Brain" (you have no idea how much I need this:laugh:). The author has worked in the area of cognitive neuroscience for several years. Her pioneering work in neuroplasticity- that changes in thinking actually change the brain and can effect behavioral change.

 

She goes into depth of how various emotions can either destroy or cause life through chemical reactions that take place in the brain and then are released into the body. It's sobering to say the least and this is just a very brief description, although what she is talking about I experienced, so know it's the truth.

 

When we hate, it starts out as a thought and creates a pathway in our brains, when these thoughts grow it creates more pathways releasing toxins which poison. Remember when your grandmother spoke to the screwed up look on your face, saying your face would grow that way? This is what happens within our brains, we become haters.

 

When we place our minds in good places (for me this would be meditating on the Word), healthy places, this creates healthy pathways releasing much needed proteins essential for healthy brain activity.

 

It's sobering and fascinating how the brain really works.