Real relationship?

[Realist3]

The above does not constitute denial.

 

It seems to be a need of BSs to see the marriage and the EMR as a love triangle rather than being two parallel relationships. In this way they can project the lies, deception and broken promises taking place in the marriage as being part of the EMR, when in reality it makes no sense to attribute what happens in the marriage to the EMR.

 

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 10000

 

Two totally different relationships that are built on their own set of circumstances.

 

The rationale that an affair relationship is built on lies and deceit, whatever is such a fallacy beyond any measurable proportion that it is sad to watch people make that illogical case. I know why they do it, but it doesn't make it any less sad.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 10000

 

Two totally different relationships that are built on their own set of circumstances.

 

The rationale that an affair relationship is built on lies and deceit, whatever is such a fallacy beyond any measurable proportion that it is sad to watch people make that illogical case. I know why they do it, but it doesn't make it any less sad.

 

With all due respect....a "relationship" that is secret, that is parallel or perpendicular or oval or trapezoid, or triangle, that is started AS A SECRET, is by definition built on lies and deceit.

 

Were it not for the LIES it would be polyamory.

 

To suggest otherwise is illogical.

 

But I agree affairs are sad.

[Realist3]

Not so.

 

In the vast majority of affairs where single women are involved with married men, it's pretty clear that the situation isn't what "works best for both." Most times, it's what works best for the married man so he can continue to have everything he wants at home while having an escape and some excitement on the side. The single OW reluctantly accepts that it can't be any different and knows she has to work within the confines of the secrecy rules or the affair is over.

 

I'd hardly call that "coming to an agreement together."

 

I don't have any empirical data to make the claim 'most affairs' do this or that. It just doesn't exist.

 

When one accepts something, or works within the confines, then they have de facto made an agreement. Unless we are talking about forced participation.

[ladydesigner]

With all due respect....a "relationship" that is secret, that is parallel or perpendicular or oval or trapezoid, or triangle, that is started AS A SECRET, is by definition built on lies and deceit.

 

Were it not for the LIES it would be polyamory.

 

To suggest otherwise is illogical.

 

But I agree affairs are sad.

 

Thanks for posting this. It is a sad fact that this needs to be addressed all the time.

 

And I too agree affairs are very sad

[AlwaysGrowing]

The rationale that an affair relationship is built on lies and deceit, whatever is such a fallacy beyond any measurable proportion that it is sad to watch people make that illogical case. I know why they do it, but it doesn't make it any less sad.

 

Wow, for someone who refuses to accept any "data" as being real, you sure like to throw around "truths" as you see them.

 

If in your self reality a person can carry on two relationships and only have morals in one...then go right ahead and accept that.

 

In my life experience, when I have witnessed someone doing something unethical, time and time again, you will see them do it in other areas of their life, they are but one person.

[anne1707]

I think some people here don't even tell the truth to themselves

[Betterthanthis13]

I think some people here don't even tell the truth to themselves

 

I am pretty sure everyone lies to themselves sometimes. I think we have to, as humans sometimes. Lying to yourself isnt always bad. I might lie to myself and tell myself I am really happy to be doing something I don't feel like doing- to "psych myself up" for it. No harm done. That's just self preservation. It keeps us from going insane on a daily basis.

 

Like the "sour grapes" fable.

 

Lying to yourself is only bad if it is causing you harm or harming others. If I lie to myself and tell myself I can fly, and jump off a building- well then ill probably die. So my opinion is that lying to yourself is not always a bad thing- but it can also be really really bad.

[AlwaysGrowing]

“The worst lies are the lies we tell ourselves. We live in denial of what we do, even what we think. We do this because we're afraid.We fear we will not find love,and when we find it we fear we'll lose it. We fear that if we don't have love we will be unhappy.”

 

Self lies are what cause us to lose our Self Respect. "oh this is not an affair, this is love", "I'm not really hurting my SO, I am just in love", "I am not the one married, I am not breaking any vows, I am just in love"

[AlwaysGrowing]

I am pretty sure everyone lies to themselves sometimes. I think we have to, as humans sometimes. Lying to yourself isnt always bad. I might lie to myself and tell myself I am really happy to be doing something I don't feel like doing- to "psych myself up" for it. No harm done. That's just self preservation. It keeps us from going insane on a daily basis.

 

Or what the dictionary might call...ummm...I dont know...MOTIVATION

[Betterthanthis13]

I am pretty sure everyone lies to themselves sometimes. I think we have to, as humans sometimes. Lying to yourself isnt always bad. I might lie to myself and tell myself I am really happy to be doing something I don't feel like doing- to "psych myself up" for it. No harm done. That's just self preservation. It keeps us from going insane on a daily basis.

 

Or what the dictionary might call...ummm...I dont know...MOTIVATION

 

Exactly! I agree totally- but if you look more closely, it is a lie you tell yourself in order to benefit your own life. The other lie you have as an example above about affairs- is a lie a person tells to themself in order to justify an objectively wrong action.

 

It's not that lying to yourself is always wrong- it's that making the choice to lie to yourself for the purpose of causing harm and justifying an objectively wrong action is wrong.

 

It's semantics but this is how people get caught up in arguments that go nowhere.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Its when we live in denial of what we are doing, or the why we think a certain way, that the lies we tell ourselves cause us the most harm.

 

Its knowing the difference.

 

Motivation..is to bring something good to us, like our paycheck, or clean clothes, or fitness.

 

Which to me ....is not really a lie..it is a truth..we just need the reminder.

[Spark1111]

I read the emails, the texts......

 

He lied to both of us, but mostly himself I think.

 

During the affair, neither relationship was real. They were both built on lies and deception.

[ladydesigner]

I read the emails, the texts......

 

He lied to both of us, but mostly himself I think.

 

During the affair, neither relationship was real. They were both built on lies and deception.

 

Same here I read the texts, listened to conversations...

 

My WH was the manipulator. MOW thought she was, but she got manipulated by one of the best manipulators I have ever known.

 

I refuse to believe that our M or their relationship (during the A) were even remotely real. My RA was not real, it was an escape like alcohol or drugs.

[Betterthanthis13]

Its when we live in denial of what we are doing, or the why we think a certain way, that the lies we tell ourselves cause us the most harm.

 

Its knowing the difference.

 

Motivation..is to bring something good to us, like our paycheck, or clean clothes, or fitness.

 

Which to me ....is not really a lie..it is a truth..we just need the reminder.

 

Yes- knowing the difference.

 

If I broke both my legs and couldn't walk- telling myself "I can walk!" Might help me be able to walk again. But if I can't walk I can't walk. So it is a lie. But it might be motivating. In which case lying is to myself is good.

 

But if in the same scenario both my legs were broken and I kept telling myself "I can walk!" And all I was doing was falling on my ass and then breaking my arms and my face to go along with my broken legs, and having to spend 6 more months in the hospital and causing myself and my family a lot of grief... Not so good

 

Same lie same motivation

[Furious]

I think that the attraction of having an affair is that it's not a "real" relationship.

 

Sue the cashier can be Cleopatra to Bob the accountant who can be her Caesar.

 

Affairs are an opportunity to reinvent yourself meanwhile safeguarding their real lives through deception.

 

The transition from affair partners to a 24/7 relationship is a monumental task as it requires an untangling from truth and fiction.

 

Most WS's are invested in maintaing and feeding an affair as opposed to actually taking it out of the shadow and making it a "real" relationship. Why else are cheaters so preoccupied and determined to keep their spouse be in the dark and avoid a possible d-day.

[2sure]

I remember reading my husbands emails and texts to the OWomen he was with.

Mind you, they each thought he was the nicest guy. He is charming, romantic, sensitive. He would send emails almost every night. Thoughtful, personal and intimate. It hurt to read. It sounded like he was much closer to them than to me as far as his words.

 

Until I realized each thoughtful letter was basically a form letter, some details changed, but sent to several women.

 

And it's funny, I admit, but telling.

 

Also, if Affairs were parallel relationships and not triangles, BS would not be the main subject of so many posts by OW . I think it may be possible for a MM to have two completely seperate relationships, but apparently not with two women.

[ladydesigner]

I remember reading my husbands emails and texts to the OWomen he was with.

Mind you, they each thought he was the nicest guy. He is charming, romantic, sensitive. He would send emails almost every night. Thoughtful, personal and intimate. It hurt to read. It sounded like he was much closer to them than to me as far as his words.

 

Until I realized each thoughtful letter was basically a form letter, some details changed, but sent to several women.

 

And it's funny, I admit, but telling.

 

Also, if Affairs were parallel relationships and not triangles, BS would not be the main subject of so many posts by OW . I think it may be possible for a MM to have two completely seperate relationships, but apparently not with two women.

 

I was the main subject even in my WH's A. They solely focused on what a meanie I was and how she would NEVER be that way with him. A lot of what I read revolved around me. I often wonder what they would have had in common had they ended up together.

[freestyle]

I was the main subject even in my WH's A. They solely focused on what a meanie I was and how she would NEVER be that way with him. A lot of what I read revolved around me. I often wonder what they would have had in common had they ended up together.

 

Sounds like the classic "bonding over a common enemy" dynamic..

 

I'd bet money they each had a women during their upbringings (a mother/sister/grandmother/female playground bully) that they had unresolved, or even unacknowledged issues with. And they were still at war with someone from their past.

 

You were merely the stand-in.

 

A lot of relationships based on "bonding over a common enemy" end up failing, once the "enemy" is no longer a factor.

 

I've seen that scenario play out multiple times here, and IRL.

[Finally Settled]

Sounds like the classic "bonding over a common enemy" dynamic..

 

I'd bet money they each had a women during their upbringings (a mother/sister/grandmother/female playground bully) that they had unresolved, or even unacknowledged issues with. And they were still at war with someone from their past.

 

You were merely the stand-in.

 

A lot of relationships based on "bonding over a common enemy" end up failing, once the "enemy" is no longer a factor.

 

I've seen that scenario play out multiple times here, and IRL.

 

When my other woman ended the affair I confessed to my exwife that the affair had resumed and that it was now done. I spent many months offering to answer questions and begging her to attend marriage counselling with me. Her only desire was for me to join her in a campaign of hatred for my other woman. I refused. I was happy to tell her anything she wanted to know, but I was not going to sit and allow our lives to become nothing but a front of hatred for someone I didn't hate. I didn't flaunt my feelings to my exwife, but I would never have denied them.

 

Many men that I work with in the support groups I am part of have had the same. Most will rewrite the history of the affair in order to maintain stability with their wives. Eventually, many will believe the rewritten version and that is the way some finally get over their other woman. It is much like how some married men will rewrite the marriage in order to allow themselves to have an affair.

 

To me this is one of the reasons 'real' is so difficult to define. Positions and roles change, and for the sake of self preservation we often need to convince ourselves how things were -- either for the better or for the worst.

[Anna-Belle]

Many men that I work with in the support groups I am part of have had the same. Most will rewrite the history of the affair in order to maintain stability with their wives. Eventually, many will believe the rewritten version and that is the way some finally get over their other woman. It is much like how some married men will rewrite the marriage in order to allow themselves to have an affair.

 

This is something I've noticed in life in general, not only when it comes to EMRs but in regular relationships/marriages as well. Some people have a tendency to rewrite history once the relationship/marriage is over. After all, if the relationship/marriage ended it couldn't have been your One Love now, could it? While others own their history and their perception of their past relationship does not change just because the relationship/marriage ended.

 

I was warned recently that my sMM may return to his wife. So? It doesn't change the fact that he and I have had seven wonderful years together. I would have to grieve our relationship of course, but I would have wonderful memories to look back at.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Anna-Belle

[SolG]

"Perception is reality." Not sure who originally said that, but it works for me. Something is real if you believe it is so.

 

There are so many nuances to 'reality'. One persons reality can easily be another's illusion. This applies to any kind of relationship; marriage, affairs, long term partnerships, etc... I know my fair share of marriages with fake facades.

 

My A is absolutely real to me. My MM and I spend one week a month together and also at least one night of the other weeks. We help each other with domestics and bills and the trials and tribulations of life. We dream and plan together. We make love and sometimes argue and fight. And yes sometimes we hurt and cry together too.

 

It may not have the legitimacy and trappings of marriage. But this A is still very much a part of our reality.

 

But I can only speak for my A and my life, I can not vouch at all for anyone else's perception of reality in these circumstances. Or really even for anyone's else's perception of mine!

[MissBee]

As are real.

 

They exist in reality; however, because of the nature of the regular A, they are limited relationships, lived in a secret compartment, and thus that kind of limited/compartmentalized/secret dynamic doesn't provide for a total picture and can increase illusions. Lots of the norms and expectations that exist in regular relationships do not exist in As and then that is how they become questionable.

 

For example: save for those who enter the marital home or those having affairs with the spouses of people they already know. Most APs have NEVER been to the home of their married lover and seen them in that home context. Now that is one very strange thing that would seem odd to people in normal relationships, i.e. if you're with a single man and have NEVER been to his home in all your years of dating, likewise never met his family, his children etc. people would look at you as someone he didn't really care about and is ashamed of or isn't serious about and as you all not having a legitimate relationship....same with As...often times APs are excluded from large chunks of the MP's lives and that exclusion makes the legitimacy and "realness" questionable.

 

Perception is reality only to an extent, as reality is based on consensus and people share common realities, and those whose realities are different from the shared consensus are usually considered to be suffering from delusion. That's one aspect of As which make the real/not real argument an issue...the fact that because the relationship is often lived in secret and in a compartment separate from the dominant aspect of the MP's life and away from the consensus of what everyone who knows them sees...the perception for everyone else is that this is not reality. It is real to the OW/OM esp if they are single, but as for the friends and family and children of the MP who share everything else in their life, except the secret A, it is easier to be dismissed for obvious reasons. As an OW these things spun around in my head and certainly bothered me and having had non-A relationships, I know that there is a huge difference between the feeling of realness in the two. In single relationships your reality is shared and vouched for by other people, which is part of the consensus of reality, whereas in an A, it's a lot more insular and when people talk about "it's real to me", it starts to just tie back into the fantasy idea and in your fantasy you can be anyone you want and define things anyway you want...even if for everyone else not living in your fantasy it's something else.

Edited August 22, 2013 by MissBee

[freestyle]

When my other woman ended the affair I confessed to my exwife that the affair had resumed and that it was now done. I spent many months offering to answer questions and begging her to attend marriage counselling with me. Her only desire was for me to join her in a campaign of hatred for my other woman. I refused. I was happy to tell her anything she wanted to know, but I was not going to sit and allow our lives to become nothing but a front of hatred for someone I didn't hate. I didn't flaunt my feelings to my exwife, but I would never have denied them.

 

 

Are you able to put yourself in exwife's shoes, if only for a few moments?

 

I think it's safe bet, that she viewed your attitude as still defending the OW, and your feelings for her. Whether it was rational, or not--it most likely came across to her, as further disloyalty, and a lack of empathy from you.

 

It made you look like you were still straddling the fence, instead of firmly & decisively being in your exwife's corner. She needed reassurance that you were on her side. And the onus was on you, to provide that, in order to rebuild trust.

 

A campaign of hatred is a normal and understandable reaction towards an marital interloper. I see nothing wrong with that, as long as no laws are broken. And often times, it dissipates, if the BS feels safe to vent & express his/her feelings.

 

If a BS is NOT allowed to express legitimate emotions, of anger, disgust, and hatred towards the party who was an accomplice in turning his/her life upside-down---they're likely to feel highly invalidated.

---and is pressured to "rug-sweep" or "stuff it down"---the chances of rebuilding trust, and emotional intimacy are almost nil. The invalidation compounds the injury. And the BS can't feel emotionally safe.

[Spark1111]

I agree freestyle.

 

You blew it, FinallySettled.

 

When a BS boards the crazy train by hurling invective at the unknown interloper, it is a protection of the psyche because they still LOVE you.

 

And they are not yet ready to DEAL with what someone they LOVED did to them.

 

With a WS's support, they will be in time, but not initially.

 

Defend the AP when faced with that much pain you can guarantee a divorce.

[AlwaysGrowing]

The opposite of love is not hate, its indifference.

 

I remember how my first husband was angry when I didn't fight him over anything in the divorce. I simply didn't care. There was nothing that we shared that I couldn't replace on my own. He lost all power, and he didn't like that. He would have kept me tied to him legally therefore mentally for as long as he could, I severed his means.

 

Having positive feelings/memories of your ap while in the affair I can understand...its how you feed it. However, if you still have those feelings/memories then you should share that with your wife, so that she can do what she needs to protect herself.

 

I totally get the whole "YAHOO, WHAT AN AWESOME TIME WE ARE HAVING", while in the affair, but to look back at that time and to still feel the same?? I don't get it.

 

For your wife, you are saying "hey hon...remember when I ripped your heart out? That sh&t was some fun for me"