Real relationship?

[Journee]

I've never seen a relationship in the real world that does actually contain EVERYTHING.

 

 

Indeed. This has been the hardest lesson for me to learn. I had a very unreal expectation out of marriage and out of my husband. Not that there were not things that needed work but that he and I would not somehow magically morph into new people once we said "I do".

 

We were the same people with the same issues and FOO muck. Then cam children and money got tighter and resentments built and and and....we fell apart. Literally. Separated. Crazy.

 

I am finally working on the unreal expectations I have. Also working to make myself stronger for both of our sake.

[Journee]

I'm sorry, I have been really busy today. It is not meant as insult just an observation. I mentioned it earlier in the thread what I meant by the comment. That is in the best interest for both WS's and BS's to minimize the affair relationship if they are going to attempt R. And what I have read in this thread is a great deal of just that. One person said because they didn't have to deal with all of the dealings of daily life in the house, such as kids grades, laundry, etc.. You mentioned it being open. Others mentioned a slew of other reasons which really don't impact the question of whether it is a real relationship.

 

 

 

I dunno. Maybe it's not just minimizing but not keeping certain aspects at the forefront. If one is trying to move on then continuously pining (WS) or pouting (BS) about how all encompassing and awakening the affair was to the WS is not going to enable the couple to stay afloat. Being brutally honest may be the path to go at certain points but don't get lost. Yes, the A may have been very powerful for the wayward but if at the end of the day the WS chooses to reconcile then the M should then be the focus. How things got to that point. Yeah ,there will be questions and agony over certain details but how much torture is needed? If the AP is where it's at then fly little birdie fly!

 

 

Back to topic. As I stated in another post I am not one that believes that the A meant nothing. So I do believe the A is a real relationship. I'm not sure how to categorize it after that though. Don't tell me I feel like this for nothing. I'm not glass ,I will not shatter. I can handle more than H thinks. I would much rather hear that "yes, I needed attention and to feel wanted." "The attention felt good so I continued" than....it meant nothing. Please. If I know anything it's that my H does not do ANYTHING that he doesn't want to do and he meant to do everything he did.

[Got it]

Well GOTit, I get it.....

 

While one partner is engaging in the affair, the OTHER is holding up the REAL relationship...the one with ALL the responsibilities and obligations and support.

 

like I said, I would have KILLED for my fWS to invite me to lunch, hold my hand, let me vent about my trials and tribulations, and make ardent, non-stop plans to TAKE ME away from it all.....

 

he NEVER did. In fact, his expectation was that I should be doing this.....then bemoaned I wasn't interested in being with him.....

 

WTF????? Lose, lose Spark.

 

In MC he was challenged: WHAT did you give, put in, invest into the marital relationship? How much TIME did you devote?

 

Did you call her? Text her? date her? Appreciate her? send her flowers? cards? Woo her? Plan to take her away?

 

NONE. None at all.

 

We EACH get the relationship we work for. reality be damned.

 

The "real" "not real", that to me is secondary. The crux of the issue was the inordinate responsibility difference two the two of you. On a pie chart you were carrying the majority of the responsibility and he was carrying less. I am assuming it was based on the assumption that he was/would carry a heavier load due to acceptable external reasons? So to find out that he wasn't carrying his share and for greatly unacceptable reasons, well as they say in the south, that would really chap your hide.

 

My looking at it that since the actions are real, it's real. Real and sustainability are two different things. Why does it matter if it was real or not? The actions were done. The transgressions were made. The disrespect was given. So does it make a major difference if they believed themselves to be Elvis and Priscilla, the man on the moon or were themselves. In short and crudely, you were completely disregarded and figuratively f%cked. The actions were real regardless of what the internal make up was of their relationship. I guess what I am trying to say that even if everything is a lie, a lie is still real. It is said, stated, acted upon.

 

Maybe it is more about legitimate/illegitimate than real/not real?

[Spark1111]

The "real" "not real", that to me is secondary. The crux of the issue was the inordinate responsibility difference two the two of you. On a pie chart you were carrying the majority of the responsibility and he was carrying less. I am assuming it was based on the assumption that he was/would carry a heavier load due to acceptable external reasons? So to find out that he wasn't carrying his share and for greatly unacceptable reasons, well as they say in the south, that would really chap your hide.

 

My looking at it that since the actions are real, it's real. Real and sustainability are two different things. Why does it matter if it was real or not? The actions were done. The transgressions were made. The disrespect was given. So does it make a major difference if they believed themselves to be Elvis and Priscilla, the man on the moon or were themselves. In short and crudely, you were completely disregarded and figuratively f%cked. The actions were real regardless of what the internal make up was of their relationship. I guess what I am trying to say that even if everything is a lie, a lie is still real. It is said, stated, acted upon.

 

Maybe it is more about legitimate/illegitimate than real/not real?

 

I guess defining real is like defining love.

 

the affair relationship is real in that it exists in reality.

 

But I find it disrespectful to all parties and often built on illusions that its very secrecy protects from.....reality intruding on thos very same illusions.

 

It's the ONLY explanation that logically makes sense to me why the vast majority go bust upon exposure to reality.

 

No longer is deception necessary and DDay is the perfect albeit painful time to declare your love out loud and make changes to incorporate your AP in an authentic, live out loud relationship.

 

rarely happens.

[Finally Settled]

Naively on my D-day, I assumed that in order for someone to have an affair and to risk it all if found out that the affair relationship must have been "real".

 

Ironically, as I handed my husband his suitcase and wished him well, I was shocked he wasn't thrilled to leave and take his affair relationship out from the shadow and into the light.

 

I told him it had been unnecessary to have lied to me. The lies hurt me more than the actual affair. He knew me, knew that I had never been one to impose myself in anyone's path of happiness. It was so confusing and I have struggled with the concept of an affair being a real relationship and that once discovered the next logical step would be that the affair partners would be relieved and enthusiastically embrace being together and out in the open.

 

Is an affair a real relationship? I don't think so anymore. I'm interested in other's opinion as to whether they agree or disagree.

 

I may be wrong, but to me it appears you are associating a 'real' relationship as one that is to progress when given the opportunity. That if it does not progress it must not be 'real'.

 

I only speak for myself, but my affair was in some ways more real than my marriage. Conversely, my marriage was more real in some ways than my affair. That does not mean that either of them were not real. Each of them were very real.

 

When I was found out I did exactly what I had told my other woman I would do -- I stayed in the marital home. In no way did that mean my relationship with my other woman was any less real than my marriage was. It merely meant I chose to stay where I was due to multitude of reasons. It did not mean the affair itself wasn't real, it meant I made a choice between two very real relationships.

 

It is very difficult to quantify 'real'. Each of us will define it to meet our needs, much as we will do with 'love'. I think by seeing comments from all sides of the triangle that is apparent.

[ladydesigner]

IDK I honestly think Spark nailed it. I've been in an A and there is no way I can call it a 'real' relationship next to my M. Maybe a long-term A, but not the short fling that I had or my WH has had. I would call my A with xAP my 'psuedo relationship.' I really wanted my WH, but I wanted him to make me feel the way the xAP had made me feel, and that was words of affirmation. That's all I wanted out of my A. That's all I needed from my WH. The strong feelings I had for xAP I believe were the hormones and the rush. These were feelings not action. My xAP was never someone I would be attracted to nor want to spend the rest of my life with. I believe the same to be true for my WH. We were both missing certain elements in the M that we found in our AP's but not enough to end our M. I believe the love we share to be the 'true relationship' as it so far has stood the test of time and both of our A's. An A might be a relationship I am just not sure what kind of relationship and how genuine it really is. This is obviously from my own perspective and experience and it may not apply in others situations.

Edited August 16, 2013 by ladydesigner

[So happy together]

Furious, I would ignore realist as he is still in the middle of a deceitful relationship, those of us that have are either reconciling or dealing with a WS leaving after an affair is outed are in a different place. I think when still fully ingrained in deceit it's difficult to understand the full impact of what they are engaged in and what reality looks like...only those that have the strength to come clean and those that have what it takes to deal with its aftermath truly understand the impact of affairs...until you are clean and honest, you are not fully aware...to live it is to know it...the rest is conjecture and allying guilt with a bit of ego in there as well.

 

This is just not true. In my relationship I was fully aware of the future consequences, and so was he. But we chose it anyway. I wasn't ever deceitful about it and while he didn't talk about it, the reason was more preparing a way to leave and if she had asked (as soon as she did) he left. I know my reality. I knew it then. So did he. I also don't understand the debate. Why ask if it's real? Clearly if they have a relationship it is a real one. I understand that BS's don't want to believe there was/is a full blown loving relationship for some WS's and AP's, there just is. Why debate it? It's not making anyone feel any better.

[whichwayisup]

This is just not true. In my relationship I was fully aware of the future consequences, and so was he. But we chose it anyway. I wasn't ever deceitful about it and while he didn't talk about it, the reason was more preparing a way to leave and if she had asked (as soon as she did) he left. I know my reality. I knew it then. So did he. I also don't understand the debate. Why ask if it's real? Clearly if they have a relationship it is a real one. I understand that BS's don't want to believe there was/is a full blown loving relationship for some WS's and AP's, there just is. Why debate it? It's not making anyone feel any better.

 

People have the right to believe in what they believe in, to have an opinion so to tell someone to just accept YOUR view and not have a debate or agree to disagree isn't right. Just because your A was like a real relationship doesn't mean ALL A's were or even are. There are tons of A's that are based in privacy and behind closed doors, nobody knows anything. THAT is not a healthy R for anybody and one can only take that for so long before they realize they deserve more.

[ladydesigner]

I understand that BS's don't want to believe there was/is a full blown loving relationship for some WS's and AP's, there just is. Why debate it? It's not making anyone feel any better.

 

Well because for some like me it makes the difference between wanting to stay M or not. If my WH had a full blown loving relationship with MOW well then I don't want him. It sort of feel's like how a mama cat feels towards her kittens if they start to smell too much like someone else (handler, owner) she will ignore and starve the kitten as it no longer smells like her kitten. To me if my WH had the kind of loving relationship he had with me with her, then our love means nothing to me.

[MissBee]

Maybe real vs. not real can be thought of in this way:

 

When I'm asked about how many relationships I have had, I say 3 real ones.I define these as my real relationships in that there was an emotional investment, I loved them or thought I did, I planned them into my life, my family and friends knew them as my SO and theirs knew me, we were exclusive, we had future plans and no limitations. The A for me had some of these and not some of the others. My feelings for him were real and we shared with each other stuff in our lives, but the A nature made it limited, which really did feed certain illusions or made some things intangible and hard to pin down and hold on to.

 

On the other hand, although I've had 3 "real" boyfriends, and let's say 4 including my AP, based on that criteria, I dated other men and casually saw other men, even some for an extended time, but we weren't exclusive, I was not in love, there would be no future, even if I knew their friends or family it wasn't in the context of "this is my bf/this is my gf" and even if I was only seeing them, we had no agreement about exclusivity. I liked them, enjoyed their company, did romantic things with them, talked to them, hung out but it wasn't a relationship. Well it was a relationship of sorts, but my outlook and mentality about it versus my other boyfriends was very very different.

 

I think As, like single relationships run the gamut, from there being real investment to where it's way more casual, in the moment, limited and the persons in it know going in it won't progress to more and is ancillary to a primary setup.

[ComingInHot]

okay, O.K.!! I now have to put my "real" 2 cents*

 

yes. what be did with her was real. He had real sex with her. not once but twice!

He took her out to a Real meal.

He, for Real, met her at the mall and went X-mas shopping for MY children.

He Really, ignored my call while dining with her after shopping.

 

No. His talk of leaving was NOT Real.

He Pretended to be who be was Not.

He lied about our sex life.

He faked about leaving me.

There was No Real foundation in which to call what they had a relationship because nothing he said, nothing he pretended to be, Nothing he faked to get laid was Real.

 

So, what they did together was Real. What they Were together was was Not A Relationship.

[ladydesigner]

So, what they did together was Real. What they Were together was was Not A Relationship.

 

Amen sista!

[MissBee]

okay, O.K.!! I now have to put my "real" 2 cents*

 

yes. what be did with her was real. He had real sex with her. not once but twice!

He took her out to a Real meal.

He, for Real, met her at the mall and went X-mas shopping for MY children.

He Really, ignored my call while dining with her after shopping.

 

No. His talk of leaving was NOT Real.

He Pretended to be who be was Not.

He lied about our sex life.

He faked about leaving me.

There was No Real foundation in which to call what they had a relationship because nothing he said, nothing he pretended to be, Nothing he faked to get laid was Real.

 

So, what they did together was Real. What they Were together was was Not A Relationship.

 

 

This distinction makes sense.

 

I think it's like online vs. offline real life and vacation vs. everyday life.

 

Clearly all of us here are real people with real lives, but our participation on LS is a shadow of our real life. My thoughts, feelings, stuff I say about my life here are real, but clearly I don't use my real name, my picture, and stuff I can and would do offline aren't the same as I would do here, likewise people here are not my real-world friends so hearing about my life and being a friend who is witnessing it or experiencing it with me are different. But this is not a dream or a fake world lol....just an online one which I participate in to an extent with limitations. Which is also why internet dating for an extended time without meeting can be iffy, as you just don't get that totality of the person and what is and isn't real can sometimes not be clear if it's only online.

 

Likewise, vacations are not your "real life." The vacation happens in your real life clearly and is not a made-up dream world lol. But often on vacation you're not doing your regular job, you're not doing your regular routine, people who meet you on vacation often are meeting you in an entirely different context than normal, you often do things you don't do at home, and at a hotel and so on, you are very much living like a real person, but it's not the life you lead normally.

 

I think because affairs are often compartmentalized...they come with a distinction like online vs. offline and vacation vs. everyday, as all these things include a break from your normal and sometimes behaving in ways you wouldn't otherwise or in limited ways.

 

So it goes back to affairs are real relationships...but for many, real, limited ones with conditions that do not always reflect the totality of the person's life and there is a primary/real life and an affair compartment life/relationship.

Edited August 16, 2013 by MissBee

[Anna-Belle]

okay, O.K.!! I now have to put my "real" 2 cents*

 

yes. what be did with her was real. He had real sex with her. not once but twice!

He took her out to a Real meal.

He, for Real, met her at the mall and went X-mas shopping for MY children.

He Really, ignored my call while dining with her after shopping.

 

No. His talk of leaving was NOT Real.

He Pretended to be who be was Not.

He lied about our sex life.

He faked about leaving me.

There was No Real foundation in which to call what they had a relationship because nothing he said, nothing he pretended to be, Nothing he faked to get laid was Real.

 

So, what they did together was Real. What they Were together was was Not A Relationship.

 

With this logic the marriage in our case was not a real relationship:

 

yes. what he did with her was real. He had real sex with her. not once but twice!

He took her out to a Real meal.

He, for Real, met her at the mall and went X-mas shopping for THEIR children.

He Really, took my call while dining with her after shopping.

 

No. His talk of staying was not Real.

He Pretended to be who he was Not.

He lied about our sex life.

He faked about not being with me.

There was No Real foundation in which to call what they had a relationship because nothing he said, nothing he pretended to be, Nothing he faked to not break up the family was Real.

 

So, what they did together was Real. What they Were together was was Not A Relationship.

[ladydesigner]

With this logic the marriage in our case was not a real relationship:

 

yes. what he did with her was real. He had real sex with her. not once but twice!

He took her out to a Real meal.

He, for Real, met her at the mall and went X-mas shopping for THEIR children.

He Really, took my call while dining with her after shopping.

 

No. His talk of staying was not Real.

He Pretended to be who he was Not.

He lied about our sex life.

He faked about not being with me.

There was No Real foundation in which to call what they had a relationship because nothing he said, nothing he pretended to be, Nothing he faked to not break up the family was Real.

 

So, what they did together was Real. What they Were together was was Not A Relationship.

 

Until he has another relationship, right? And now would you consider his next relationship to be 'real'? This could go on and on...

[Anna-Belle]

Until he has another relationship, right? And now would you consider his next relationship to be 'real'? This could go on and on...

 

Every relationship is real. I was merely pointing out the faulty logic.

[ComingInHot]

Annebelle, I disagree to an extent and I believe you are taking My experience and thinking it is my theory and/or logic.

 

Allow me to clarify... EhHem, In MY situation, the "relationship" my H had w/exow was founded on lies, maintained through make believe, and turned to ash before I ever found out.

 

Now, it is my understanding that a true relationship is one founded on truth,commitment, and w/stands the struggles, deceit & in this case A's that creep in during stormy periods ultimately making thw M stronger once these storms are past.

 

This is just what happened in My experience.

Your experience, if completed, may have the same outcome but in reverse. I don't know how your experience turned out*

 

The kicker about A's is that no matter the substance put forth the opposing party can almost Always say the same or claim the same in reverse...

 

Except the BS most likely was sleeping w/a MM/MW.

[Furious]

It's astounding that a "real" relationship is so difficult to pin.

 

I guess it begins with being real in yourself. Being authentic seems to be a lost art.

 

I dare anyone to teach your children that affairs are real relationships.

 

I find it interesting that those who chose to have an affair or are presently involved in an affair insist it's a real relationship. There seems to be a disconnect because I doubt if their own children were being cheated on they wouldn't feel terrible for their son or daughter and not defend affairs.

 

Real has lost it's meaning if it is identified in anyway with deceit. In our core we know what real is. Real seems to have been hijacked by those who see it as something pliable and made to fit their own agenda.

 

I'm having tea and toast with butter. I could have margarine but it's not real.

[So happy together]

People have the right to believe in what they believe in, to have an opinion so to tell someone to just accept YOUR view and not have a debate or agree to disagree isn't right. Just because your A was like a real relationship doesn't mean ALL A's were or even are. There are tons of A's that are based in privacy and behind closed doors, nobody knows anything. THAT is not a healthy R for anybody and one can only take that for so long before they realize they deserve more.

 

It is if they are getting what they want/need from the relationship.

[Finally Settled]

It's astounding that a "real" relationship is so difficult to pin.

 

I guess it begins with being real in yourself. Being authentic seems to be a lost art.

 

I dare anyone to teach your children that affairs are real relationships.

 

I find it interesting that those who chose to have an affair or are presently involved in an affair insist it's a real relationship. There seems to be a disconnect because I doubt if their own children were being cheated on they wouldn't feel terrible for their son or daughter and not defend affairs.

 

Real has lost it's meaning if it is identified in anyway with deceit. In our core we know what real is. Real seems to have been hijacked by those who see it as something pliable and made to fit their own agenda.

 

I'm having tea and toast with butter. I could have margarine but it's not real.

 

What is being authentic to yourself? To you it will be one thing and to me it will be another. The mechanic that services your car and the lady at the cash reister at the grocery store may have different thoughts of what it means to be authentic to yourself. I know you will not agree, but the time in my recent past that I was most authentic was when I was in the affair with my other woman. I had allowed myself to become complacent in my marriage, so much so that neither my exwife or myself saw it as much more than a shell. We had grown to that point so slowly we almost couldn't believe we were there. I asked her to attend marriage counselling and she refused. I asked again and was met with the same answer. I went to individual counselling and found myself no further forward. I wasn't particularly happy in that shell, but I was comfortable--as was my exwife. I did the unthinkable and had an affair. All of a sudden I was myself again. All of a sudden I was with someone who didn't allow complacency to be part of our lives. The reality of the affair was that I became who I truly was. The reality of the marriage was that we both had drifted into a very real life of being not necessarily happy, but not necessarily unhappy. The real and authentic me was in a flux between both worlds. At some point I had to choose which I thought was the authentic me, and I chose unwisely. Years later I realized this and changed everything.

 

While I will never defend affairs, I will defend my relationship with my other woman. I learned the art of honesty from her and all of our children know fully how our relationship began. One of my children recognized some traits in herself and is seeking help in understanding and dealing with them. My other woman was honest with everyone while we were in the affair, so I took much punishment from her family as to what I was doing. I'm sure she had her own discomfort with them as well.

 

I would also dare ask you, or anyone else, if a child were born to a married man and an other woman should the child be told the relationship between its parents was not real? I do not want this to be a debate about telling the child it was right or wrong, but whether the relationship was real or not.

 

You note that real has been hijacked to fit agendas. I will point out that my exwife felt as you do. She took every opportunity to point out the relationship with my other woman wasn't real. I eventually didn't counter her on it as it allowed her healing to move along better. As you have said, she changed the definition of real and relationship and changed them to her own agenda. In my last post I said much the same -- we all will redefine words to use for our own benefit, and that means people from all sides of the triangle.

 

To you butter may be real, but I prefer the taste of margarine and it has been advised by a nutritionist as part of a healthy diet. Both are real; butter is real butter and margarine is real margarine.

[Finally Settled]

This distinction makes sense.

 

I think it's like online vs. offline real life and vacation vs. everyday life.

 

Clearly all of us here are real people with real lives, but our participation on LS is a shadow of our real life. My thoughts, feelings, stuff I say about my life here are real, but clearly I don't use my real name, my picture, and stuff I can and would do offline aren't the same as I would do here, likewise people here are not my real-world friends so hearing about my life and being a friend who is witnessing it or experiencing it with me are different. But this is not a dream or a fake world lol....just an online one which I participate in to an extent with limitations. Which is also why internet dating for an extended time without meeting can be iffy, as you just don't get that totality of the person and what is and isn't real can sometimes not be clear if it's only online.

 

Likewise, vacations are not your "real life." The vacation happens in your real life clearly and is not a made-up dream world lol. But often on vacation you're not doing your regular job, you're not doing your regular routine, people who meet you on vacation often are meeting you in an entirely different context than normal, you often do things you don't do at home, and at a hotel and so on, you are very much living like a real person, but it's not the life you lead normally.

 

I think because affairs are often compartmentalized...they come with a distinction like online vs. offline and vacation vs. everyday, as all these things include a break from your normal and sometimes behaving in ways you wouldn't otherwise or in limited ways.

 

So it goes back to affairs are real relationships...but for many, real, limited ones with conditions that do not always reflect the totality of the person's life and there is a primary/real life and an affair compartment life/relationship.

 

While you may not feel that online relationships are real, consider a shutin. Consider someone who is unable to leave their home for either a physical issue or a mental health issue. To that person online relationships are a very real part of their lives. In fact they may have little to no contact with real people. A friend of mine met a lovely woman online fifteen or so years ago. They had a very long distance, online relationship for several years prior to their physically meeting. Their relationship was fostered in that evidently unreal arena and they have been married for almost thirteen years now.

 

I may be the anomaly, but I do believe that going on vacation is part of my real life. My real life includes work and stress, resting and relaxing. I don't fall into some fantasy world when I am on a vacation. I still am very much the same person, but in a different setting. I have many wonderful memories of my exwife and children from trips to many wonderful places, and each of them were very real and very special to me. My exwife and children very seldom saw/see me in a work setting. I am more different between my work and home self than I am between my vacation and home self.

 

I understand the points you are trying to make, but the whole real/unreal is a circular argument. We all will define it to suit our needs and many will redefine it as soon as a new need requires it. To me, without a shadow of a doubt, affairs are real relationships. They are wrong and devastating, but they are real. The shifting definition of what real means to all of us seems to be the real issue at hand.

[Anna-Belle]

My common law spouse was very upset when I finally ended our relationship for my fMM. And even after the ending he kept expecting I would be back. After all, he had always come back to me after his infidelities.

 

You know what I told him? That if he had found someone more compatible than I was, someone he could have built a long term relationship with, he too would not have come back. The truth is that he and I aren't very compatible to begin with. The reason he did come back was because none of his relationships survived for more than half a year.

 

Does that make them not real? It makes them not long term relationship material. But it didn't make them less real while they lasted.

[ComingInHot]

annabelle, were his relationships founded on lies and secrecy?

[Rose Auxerrois]

The "real" relationship is the one in which you can most authentically be yourself. For some, that is the mariage. For others it is the affair. For others it is not one or the other.

 

But if you are really authentically yourself in your mariage, why the need for the affair?

[Anna-Belle]

annabelle, were his relationships founded on lies and secrecy?

 

With the OW? You're asking if he lied to them? I have no idea. I wasn't there. That actually didn't interest me as the BS. I was interested in whether he was going to stop having that relationship or not, not what he told them.