Real relationship?

[ComingInHot]

Annabelle, oh no, sorry, I meant with his dating trysts that didn't seem to last After you ended things.

No worries* It really doesn't matter. I was trying to understand Your definition of a Real relationship as well as my idea that "real" in terms of authentic, a relationship is founded and then built on honesty, and openness...

[Anna-Belle]

My common law spouse was very upset when I finally ended our relationship for my fMM. And even after the ending he kept expecting I would be back. After all, he had always come back to me after his infidelities.

 

You know what I told him? That if he had found someone more compatible than I was, someone he could have built a long term relationship with, he too would not have come back. The truth is that he and I aren't very compatible to begin with. The reason he did come back was because none of his relationships survived for more than half a year.

 

Does that make them not real? It makes them not long term relationship material. But it didn't make them less real while they lasted.

 

Annabelle, oh no, sorry, I meant with his dating trysts that didn't seem to last After you ended things.

No worries* It really doesn't matter. I was trying to understand Your definition of a Real relationship as well as my idea that "real" in terms of authentic, a relationship is founded and then built on honesty, and openness...

 

You must have totally misunderstood my post. It wasn't dating trysts, it was infidelities. And not after we ended things but during our common law marriage. Well, sometimes he would break up with me for a while, only to come back later.

 

my idea that "real" in terms of authentic, a relationship is founded and then built on honesty, and openness...

 

That would rule out every marriage that is experiencing infidelity.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Anna-Belle

[ComingInHot]

Annabelle, absolutely misunderstood your post. So sorry about that*

I think I get it now... Derrr*

 

I Do however disagree on M that have experienced infidelity... Because the foundation of, at least my marriage, was Founded on honesty then built on trust etc... then he cheated. I believe our foundation that was strongly built on trust, honesty, openness and authenticity, enabled us to have at least a better place to start from than one not built on the opposite of those*

[ComingInHot]

...aaand I think I wrote th above comment backasswards too... But you all get my jist**

[Anna-Belle]

Annabelle, absolutely misunderstood your post. So sorry about that*

I think I get it now... Derrr*

 

I Do however disagree on M that have experienced infidelity... Because the foundation of, at least my marriage, was Founded on honesty then built on trust etc... then he cheated. I believe our foundation that was strongly built on trust, honesty, openness and authenticity, enabled us to have at least a better place to start from than one not built on the opposite of those*

 

What confuses me is that it is often said that EMRs are built on lies. Okay, in your husband's case he was apparently lying to his OW, but in many EMRs the relationship is built on total honesty. The MP often feels they have nothing to lose since they already have another relationship in their back pocket (the marriage) and therefore they show their authentic self in the EMR in a much higher degree than they would have otherwise.

 

So while the marriage during this time is full of lies and deceit, the EMR is full of honesty and truth. According to your perspective, during this time the EMR is then a real relationship while the marriage is fake.

 

Sure, if the married couple decide to reconcile and they had a foundation before the EMR of honesty and truth which they now are able to return to, that's all good. Just because the EMR has now ended does however not make it an unreal relationship. It was real and based on honesty and truth while it lasted.

 

I do agree with you that a marriage which from the start was built on a foundation of deceit and lies has less chance of reconciling after an EMR than a marriage which was from the start built on a foundation of trust, honesty, openness and authenticity.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Anna-Belle

[ComingInHot]

Annabelle, it's nice we can get a little closer to an understanding or at least a "peek"perspective into the opposing party*

I have never been an OW so I don't know the "mostly's, many and more" statistics coming from that side of the A.

I can only go off my experience, and I have only the one*

 

You know what? It's all good Anna! You believe adulterous affairs are built in honesty and truth and are Real, while I believe that a relationship (a good one*) is Real if it is built WITHOUT Lies and secrecy & on honesty and truth.

 

It actually feels good to me to discover different perspectives and the way minds work when involved in Infidelity.

For that, I thank You*

[Realist3]

I sure have missed a lot, and have not read back but I did want to comment on this, CIH.

 

 

You know what? It's all good Anna! You believe adulterous affairs are built in honesty and truth and are Real, while I believe that a relationship (a good one*) is Real if it is built WITHOUT Lies and secrecy & on honesty and truth.

 

What about relationships that start at work, where it is strictly forbidden for co-workers to date each other? Is that relationship not real because it has to be hidden, lies have to be told to keep it under wraps? It happens all of the time.

[ComingInHot]

Hey Realist! How's my favorite Scorpio/MOM doing!*

Well, regardless if it happens "all the time" (and I do see your point), I am trying to keep with the topic and say the A situation is not the topic (could be wrong) because honestly the A situations could almost be endless and there are always "exceptions" but who knows that and who could prove that, right?!? The topic is which relationship is real or is the A relationship Real...

 

I have to say, my belief stands. I don't see how a relationship involving lies, secrecy, sneaking around (even if only one of the A parties is sneaking) can be a solid or "real" "Relationship" COMPARED to the relationship built on mutual honesty, trust, openness, and authenticity? To me, it cannot be real in comparison and my Own experience proves that, To Me*

 

Aside from that* I hope you are doing well and living authentically ((smile))*

[AlwaysGrowing]

Real or otherwise, its all semantics.

 

The real question should be...is this relationship toxic?

[Realist3]

Hey Realist! How's my favorite Scorpio/MOM doing!*

 

LOL! She is doing what Scorpios do best.

[Anna-Belle]

You know what? It's all good Anna! You believe adulterous affairs are built in honesty and truth and are Real, while I believe that a relationship (a good one*) is Real if it is built WITHOUT Lies and secrecy & on honesty and truth.

 

And again you are ruling out every marriage that is experiencing infidelity.

 

So many lies, so much deceit, it is so sad to see that occur in so many marriages.

[ComingInHot]

anna, uuuhhmmmmm... yeahhh... but I DO get where You're coming from* best to just let this go... ((wink))

[2sure]

The main attraction of an affair for a married person is that it is an escape or outlet in which they can be seen at and as their very best. I've been OW more than once, and I have no doubt that's what MMs main enjoyment was.

 

Rare instances are different. Affairs are what they are, a fun hobby, an ego boost, a friend. They are not built on anything tangible or sincere.

[Spark1111]

The main attraction of an affair for a married person is that it is an escape or outlet in which they can be seen at and as their very best. I've been OW more than once, and I have no doubt that's what MMs main enjoyment was.

 

Rare instances are different. Affairs are what they are, a fun hobby, an ego boost, a friend. They are not built on anything tangible or sincere.

 

I like to think the majority of them, by the very nature of its secrecy, are the perpetual, perfect third date: groomed and coiffed to perfection with matching underwear, scented candles and long, emotional conversations.

 

can that be sustained through richer and poorer, in sickness and in health, in-laws, puking kids, socks on the floor, he forgot to take out the trash again?

 

I don't know. Untested by reality, it seems NOT real to me.

[2sure]

Well whose to say what constitutes a relationship to the others?

I know of a single OW with a bunch of kids, on disability...it's a hard life, she is clearly vulnerable.

 

Her MM lives more than a thousand miles away. They knew each other as teenagers , the reconnected almost 20 years later on line. Because of the distance their only contact is on line.

 

To her, it's a full relationship. To me, it's completely virtual.

[Spark1111]

This is just not true. In my relationship I was fully aware of the future consequences, and so was he. But we chose it anyway. I wasn't ever deceitful about it and while he didn't talk about it, the reason was more preparing a way to leave and if she had asked (as soon as she did) he left. I know my reality. I knew it then. So did he. I also don't understand the debate. Why ask if it's real? Clearly if they have a relationship it is a real one. I understand that BS's don't want to believe there was/is a full blown loving relationship for some WS's and AP's, there just is. Why debate it? It's not making anyone feel any better.

 

Because SO MANY turn away from it for a myriad of reasons to return home to it.

 

Why do you think that is?

 

Given a chance to live out loud when DDAY gives a MAP the perfect opportunity to do so.....why the myriads of reasons or excuses to give up your one true love?

 

I believe many a WS DO NOT want reality to have the opportunity to intrude on their one TRUE fantasy relationship.

 

They do not WANT to negotiate bills, chores, stay up all night with sick kids, get chastised when they do not, shop groceries and forge a relationship with another person.

 

That sounds to much like marriage.

 

I think they prefer the reality of having a relationship that is strictly about how wonderful they are.

 

I think they LOVE the fantasy of the affair relationship and do not want to take it, make it real.

[Mount]

:sick: I always thought Realist3 is female, how wrong am I:eek:

 

It all depends on individual circumstances, and those are all over the map.

 

I would welcome having a relationship with my MW if the particulars lined up right.

 

As I mentioned several months ago my MW was ready to blow everything up so we could start our own marriage, but I talked her down from that position because it was not in our best interests at the time.

 

For Coolit, probably not. But that is because of the type of affair she was involved in. There is not one particular mold that every affair fits within.

[Anna-Belle]

Well whose to say what constitutes a relationship to the others?

I know of a single OW with a bunch of kids, on disability...it's a hard life, she is clearly vulnerable.

 

Her MM lives more than a thousand miles away. They knew each other as teenagers , the reconnected almost 20 years later on line. Because of the distance their only contact is on line.

 

To her, it's a full relationship. To me, it's completely virtual.

 

From what I've heard it's real enough for a 25-year old marriage to fall apart because of it. And plans being made for new citizenships in the future. Seems the authorities consider it real enough too.

 

I guess in real life it's real, but here on LS online it seems like a virtual reality to others. That would make sense to me.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Anna-Belle

[anne1707]

Well whose to say what constitutes a relationship to the others?

I know of a single OW with a bunch of kids, on disability...it's a hard life, she is clearly vulnerable.

 

Her MM lives more than a thousand miles away. They knew each other as teenagers , the reconnected almost 20 years later on line. Because of the distance their only contact is on line.

 

To her, it's a full relationship. To me, it's completely virtual.

 

Yes I remember that one. The poster kept getting banned but insisted on setting up yet more user names to go on about her "primary" and "exclusive" relationship. Wonder what she's doing now.....

[Furious]

I may be wrong, but to me it appears you are associating a 'real' relationship as one that is to progress when given the opportunity. That if it does not progress it must not be 'real'.

 

I only speak for myself, but my affair was in some ways more real than my marriage. Conversely, my marriage was more real in some ways than my affair. That does not mean that either of them were not real. Each of them were very real.

 

When I was found out I did exactly what I had told my other woman I would do -- I stayed in the marital home. In no way did that mean my relationship with my other woman was any less real than my marriage was. It merely meant I chose to stay where I was due to multitude of reasons. It did not mean the affair itself wasn't real, it meant I made a choice between two very real relationships.

 

It is very difficult to quantify 'real'. Each of us will define it to meet our needs, much as we will do with 'love'. I think by seeing comments from all sides of the triangle that is apparent.

 

 

 

I'm curious FinallySettled, did your wife hand you your suitcase on d-day and wish you well? Since you compared me to your ex-wife about our similarities I feel you are projecting and have unresolved bitterness toward her.

 

If your affair was such a "real" relationship why then did you not divorce your wife but instead enter a false reconciliation for many years and cause more hurt and pain than necessary.

 

I understand your affair partner broke it off with you because you insisted you'd never leave your wife. If the affair was real enough for you it seems she did not feel being indefinitely an other woman was "real" enough for her.

 

I appreciate your lecture on authenticity but am glad you're working on it.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Furious

[Furious]

 

While I will never defend affairs, I will defend my relationship with my other woman

 

You note that real has been hijacked to fit agendas. I will point out that my exwife felt as you do. She took every opportunity to point out the relationship with my other woman wasn't real. I eventually didn't counter her on it as it allowed her healing to move along better.

 

 

I daresay that you enabled your own agenda by entering a false reconciliation and then criticize your wife for believing your relationship with your other woman wasn't "real" seems quite cruel.

 

I hope you see it was your doing to plant such a seed.

[MissBee]

While you may not feel that online relationships are real, consider a shutin. Consider someone who is unable to leave their home for either a physical issue or a mental health issue. To that person online relationships are a very real part of their lives. In fact they may have little to no contact with real people. A friend of mine met a lovely woman online fifteen or so years ago. They had a very long distance, online relationship for several years prior to their physically meeting. Their relationship was fostered in that evidently unreal arena and they have been married for almost thirteen years now.

 

I may be the anomaly, but I do believe that going on vacation is part of my real life. My real life includes work and stress, resting and relaxing. I don't fall into some fantasy world when I am on a vacation. I still am very much the same person, but in a different setting. I have many wonderful memories of my exwife and children from trips to many wonderful places, and each of them were very real and very special to me. My exwife and children very seldom saw/see me in a work setting. I am more different between my work and home self than I am between my vacation and home self.

 

I understand the points you are trying to make, but the whole real/unreal is a circular argument. We all will define it to suit our needs and many will redefine it as soon as a new need requires it. To me, without a shadow of a doubt, affairs are real relationships. They are wrong and devastating, but they are real. The shifting definition of what real means to all of us seems to be the real issue at hand.

 

I do not think you understand the points at all.

 

I specifically said online and vacations are your real life but in a limited context or compartmentalized context often, and that's the point of comparison between those and A relationships.

 

If you understood that you wouldn't have went on to explain how shut-ins use the internet and how your friend met a woman online as none of that was up for debate . I said nothing about online relationships not being "real", I said:

 

Which is also why internet dating for an extended time without meeting can be iffy, as you just don't get that totality of the person and what is and isn't real can sometimes not be clear if it's only online.

 

You also wouldn't have explained how your vacation is part of your real life, as I said:

 

The vacation happens in your real life clearly and is not a made-up dream world lol. But often on vacation you're not doing your regular job, you're not doing your regular routine, people who meet you on vacation often are meeting you in an entirely different context than normal, you often do things you don't do at home, and at a hotel and so on, you are very much living like a real person, but it's not the life you lead normally.

[velvette]

In response to the original question, I think an A is a real affair and most MM don't intend the A relationship to ever become more than an A.

 

An A and a M are two entirely different kinds of relationships. I don't view a R without any level of commitment as all that real, but apparently others do.

 

Vel

[Finally Settled]

I'm curious FinallySettled, did your wife hand you your suitcase on d-day and wish you well? Since you compared me to your ex-wife about our similarities I feel you are projecting and have unresolved bitterness toward her.

 

If your affair was such a "real" relationship why then did you not divorce your wife but instead enter a false reconciliation for many years and cause more hurt and pain than necessary.

 

I understand your affair partner broke it off with you because you insisted you'd never leave your wife. If the affair was real enough for you it seems she did not feel being indefinitely an other woman was "real" enough for her.

 

I appreciate your lecture on authenticity but am glad you're working on it.

 

No, Furious, she did not. She made it clear she would never allow the marriage to end. As I've stated in past posts I felt a sense of duty that ended up warped and twisted over the years. She feels much the same way regarding her views of marriage. Our unhealthy views of our relationship perpetuated the aftermath of the firestorm I brought to it. I daresay she never believed I would go through with the divorce until I had been out of our home for nearly six months and the it was well on the way. I am not finding fault with her for this. I am well aware what my actions did to her and I will carry that guilt and shame with me all of my years.

 

I do apologize if you thought I was comparing you to my exwife. I believe I mentioned that she had a need to see the affair as a relationship that wasn't real, and that it was similar to the views you stated in your opening post and some after that. I have nothing to compare you with and I am sorry if my words misrepresented my thoughts.

 

The question on my reconciliation is a fine one. When my other woman ended things I immersed myself into counselling. My exwife attended a few, but found it better for herself to brush everything under the carpet. I eventually stopped counselling altogether, only going back to it when I made the decision to leave the marriage. My reconciliation was not false at that point. Where I did not regret the love I felt for my other woman, I did regret the affair and the hurt I caused my exwife. I had every intention of doing the hard work for our recovery, but my exwife chose not to do the same.

 

I can't speak for my other woman, but since we both came together years later and are happily together now I would assume she viewed it as a real relationship. Although a time came that she wanted more than I was willing to give, I don't believe she ever viewed our relationship as anything other than very real.

 

I am sorry my views on authenticity came across as a lecture. I may be more verbose than others, but I am merely speaking my peace as are others. I thank you for the words at the end of your post. I am trying.

[Finally Settled]

I daresay that you enabled your own agenda by entering a false reconciliation and then criticize your wife for believing your relationship with your other woman wasn't "real" seems quite cruel.

 

I hope you see it was your doing to plant such a seed.

 

My agenda at that point in time was to reconcile with my exwife. I am comfortable within myself that I did everything possible at that time to repair the damage I had caused. I am not criticizing my exwife for anything and I did not deny the full scope of the relationship with my other woman. I am simply saying she made the decision to not acknowledge the relationship was real. As you, I, and others have said repeatedly on this thread, we are all defining 'real' to suit our own agendas. She did the same and rather than going on and on about it being real, I eventually let her to what she firmly believed. To me that was the least cruel option.

 

Furious, I see that the entire situation was based on my actions. I see many mistakes going back years before I even met my other woman. I see mistakes that both my exwife and I made, but I am not using this knowledge or our mistakes to justify my unjustifiable actions.