Real relationship?

[whatatangledweb]

Naively on my D-day, I assumed that in order for someone to have an affair and to risk it all if found out that the affair relationship must have been "real".

 

Ironically, as I handed my husband his suitcase and wished him well, I was shocked he wasn't thrilled to leave and take his affair relationship out from the shadow and into the light.

 

I told him it had been unnecessary to have lied to me. The lies hurt me more than the actual affair. He knew me, knew that I had never been one to impose myself in anyone's path of happiness. It was so confusing and I have struggled with the concept of an affair being a real relationship and that once discovered the next logical step would be that the affair partners would be relieved and enthusiastically embrace being together and out in the open.

 

Is an affair a real relationship? I don't think so anymore. I'm interested in other's opinion as to whether they agree or disagree.

The affair was real but reality was left out for the MM/MW. Meaning I don't believe most ever think about what happens when the truth comes out. I believe most consider it a fantasy because reality does not intrude on it. Hiding it keeps it a fantasy, an escape. When reality hits the fantasy usually explodes. I don't think it is a fantasy for the OW/OM, it is their reality.

[Got it]

The affair was real but reality was left out for the MM/MW. Meaning I don't believe most ever think about what happens when the truth comes out. I believe most consider it a fantasy because reality does not intrude on it. Hiding it keeps it a fantasy, an escape. When reality hits the fantasy usually explodes. I don't think it is a fantasy for the OW/OM, it is their reality.

 

Since the outcome of it coming out is intangible as people don't know how they are going to react until they do I don't see that the lack of anticipation of the consequences is about fantasy or reality, it is just not anticipating the consequences of their actions.

 

It is stupidity to not think two steps ahead but it is all assumption and hypothesizing. The MP assumes that it won't err in their favor so they don't make actions to expose it but I don't see that as fantasy. It is just avoidance.

[whatatangledweb]

Since the outcome of it coming out is intangible as people don't know how they are going to react until they do I don't see that the lack of anticipation of the consequences is about fantasy or reality, it is just not anticipating the consequences of their actions.

 

It is stupidity to not think two steps ahead but it is all assumption and hypothesizing. The MP assumes that it won't err in their favor so they don't make actions to expose it but I don't see that as fantasy. It is just avoidance.

 

 

I call it a fantasy in my husband's case because for him it was fun, exciting, and he believed I would never find out. He never wanted it as anything other than a quick affair to feel young again. He never intended to make it anything else. Yet he let her believe it would be more. He told her whatever she wanted to hear. They were all lies. I find that to be very cruel to her and me. He screwed with her head. Someone else may call it a relationship. He called it an escape from reality.

I understand everyone feels differently. It depends on where you are coming from.

[Furious]

Since the outcome of it coming out is intangible as people don't know how they are going to react until they do I don't see that the lack of anticipation of the consequences is about fantasy or reality, it is just not anticipating the consequences of their actions.

 

It is stupidity to not think two steps ahead but it is all assumption and hypothesizing. The MP assumes that it won't err in their favor so they don't make actions to expose it but I don't see that as fantasy. It is just avoidance.

 

In your case perhaps, as you are now married to your former affair partner.

 

I expected my husband to go live happily ever after with the OW and since he did not do this, is why it's perplexing as to how "real" affairs are.

 

I believe the majority of affairs are not "real" relationships and lets not get into toilet scrubbing and chores or paying bills as a qualifier as a real relationship. I too have a cleaning lady as you do.

 

The majority of affairs do not progress further than just an affair. I do not dispute an affair is not a relationship but I do question the "realness" of that relationship if a betrayed spouse shows the WS the door and he or she does not end up wanting to continue that "real" relationship now that it is out n the open.

 

It's only my opinion but I think cheaters need to believe it's a "real" relationship, because to believe otherwise would take the shine off the future faking and excitement and that would make them ordinary as opposed to being larger than life in the affair.

 

To me "real" is not a by-product of deceit.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I think that some of the confusion on this is from the affair participants themselves. WS who claim, either upon DDay, upon being presented with the door, or months later to have realized the affair was just because the opportunity presented itself or because they could. When presented with the loss of YES their lifestyle, their status, family and spouse they indicate that the affair, was nothing, meant nothing etc.

 

The OW/OM on this site regularly talk about the great love in the affair. Or how the spouse "controls" the AP, or uses the kids to hold on to the marriage it that the WS loves them.

 

So naturally it's confusing, isn't it? Was it a great meaningful love of star crossed lovers who have to suffer until the children are grown, or did it mean nothing?

 

To split hairs and talk about the term "real" vs whatever is not the point. If it is always the great love we hear about, why are so many affairs outed as nothing, or an opportunity for some strange?

 

Each of you who have (at least for now) paired off with your affair partner, we can assume your relationship was more than an opportunity or nothing and you can judge for yourself what that is...but for the BS who don't understand how the AP can think its a great love and their spouse says its nothing..the whole thing is confusing.

 

Maybe all those WS are lying (I mean that's not a stretch) and they are giving up true love for a lifestyle, but that seems too simplistic too.

 

I think some affairs, I daresay most affairs are not the deep love...most are probably because they can. Because the opportunity presented itself and they did not expect to get caught.

 

And some are true love.

 

But starting a real relationship, while committed to another, in a monogamous relationship is not just wrong...it's also a bad idea.

 

But then again...I think affairs are always wrong (no exceptions). Nice people have affairs, but it is always a hateful selfish thing with far reaching consequences.

 

(Jumps down off soapbox)

[Got it]

In your case perhaps, as you are now married to your former affair partner.

 

I expected my husband to go live happily ever after with the OW and since he did not do this, is why it's perplexing as to how "real" affairs are.

 

I believe the majority of affairs are not "real" relationships and lets not get into toilet scrubbing and chores or paying bills as a qualifier as a real relationship. I too have a cleaning lady as you do.

 

The majority of affairs do not progress further than just an affair. I do not dispute an affair is not a relationship but I do question the "realness" of that relationship if a betrayed spouse shows the WS the door and he or she does not end up wanting to continue that "real" relationship now that it is out n the open.

 

It's only my opinion but I think cheaters need to believe it's a "real" relationship, because to believe otherwise would take the shine off the future faking and excitement and that would make them ordinary as opposed to being larger than life in the affair.

 

To me "real" is not a by-product of deceit.

 

Furious, what does my situation have to do with this or the outcome. My post would have been the same regardless.

 

Why does what your husband did or didn't do some how color all affairs? His reasons are his but it doesn't make it less reality.

 

To you real may not be a by product of deceit but that is a very subjective opinion and not based on facts.

 

For example, a person can be born into deceit, doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't real.

 

A person can leave one area of the world, start a new identity and life in another and all resulting relationships and events are not "not real" because of that.

 

A person robs a bank (since we love this analogy here) and walks away with thousands of dollars. Sets up life on it, and gives to charities, has a family, etc. Doesn't make any of that "not real" for what it is based on.

 

Again these things are all real. The majority of dating relationships do not move into marriage, doesn't make them not real.

 

Whether or not a person moves forward with the affair and divorces is not about the "realness" of the relationship. It is about what the person wants for their life and their personal preference. The affair may have never been about a solo independent relationship. It may have always been about being in conjunction to the marriage. Doesn't mean it wasn't real. It just was never about being a solo relationship.

[Got it]

I think that some of the confusion on this is from the affair participants themselves. WS who claim, either upon DDay, upon being presented with the door, or months later to have realized the affair was just because the opportunity presented itself or because they could. When presented with the loss of YES their lifestyle, their status, family and spouse they indicate that the affair, was nothing, meant nothing etc.

 

The OW/OM on this site regularly talk about the great love in the affair. Or how the spouse "controls" the AP, or uses the kids to hold on to the marriage it that the WS loves them.

 

So naturally it's confusing, isn't it? Was it a great meaningful love of star crossed lovers who have to suffer until the children are grown, or did it mean nothing?

 

To split hairs and talk about the term "real" vs whatever is not the point. If it is always the great love we hear about, why are so many affairs outed as nothing, or an opportunity for some strange?

 

Each of you who have (at least for now) paired off with your affair partner, we can assume your relationship was more than an opportunity or nothing and you can judge for yourself what that is...but for the BS who don't understand how the AP can think its a great love and their spouse says its nothing..the whole thing is confusing.

 

Maybe all those WS are lying (I mean that's not a stretch) and they are giving up true love for a lifestyle, but that seems too simplistic too.

 

I think some affairs, I daresay most affairs are not the deep love...most are probably because they can. Because the opportunity presented itself and they did not expect to get caught.

 

And some are true love.

 

But starting a real relationship, while committed to another, in a monogamous relationship is not just wrong...it's also a bad idea.

 

But then again...I think affairs are always wrong (no exceptions). Nice people have affairs, but it is always a hateful selfish thing with far reaching consequences.

 

(Jumps down off soapbox)

 

I think you are talking about two different WS. Those willing to divorce and those that aren't. For those not willing to divorce means the affair was never really about divorcing. It was just a supplement to the rest of life.

 

I think unless you are talking to all three parties of the triangle taking what OP say here, to what "your" WS says, to what . . . it is just too mixed up with different situations. For some it is about love, for others and you can read them here, it isn't about love and love isn't discussed. It is about sex.

 

Yes people will look for excuses to lessen the negative impact of things. This doesn't change from WS, to OP, to BS to non affair person. So we will say it is tied to x, y, or z. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. People are where they want to be doing exactly what they want to do (outside of mental or physical illness).

 

There is no way to fit all of this into one box. Some people it was never about moving the affair forward, for others nothing in their life is true, for others it is about martyrdom, or fear (which I think is the most common), or love or whatever. At the end of the day it is based on the whys for each individual.

 

In furious' spouses affair, it may have never been about the affair being anything more than a supplement. That is his reality, that is his truth. For another BS, there may be a different why. For another it may be because the WS is just a douchebag and has always been a douchebag. Trying to look at the group as a whole is like trying to look at all BS as a whole. Yes there are similarities but there are also stark differences.

 

And you are right, starting one relationship while in another is not the healthiest behavior.

[Furious]

 

To you real may not be a by product of deceit but that is a very subjective opinion and not based on facts.

 

 

I assume that for those who practice deceit a "real" affair relationship is subjective as you state above.

 

I did say it was my opinion and I'm entitled to that as everyone else here is entitled to their own opinion.

 

We can agree to disagree. I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers as that was not my intent.

 

I appreciate your input regardless as to our differences of opinion.

[Anna-Belle]

If two real people have a relationship it is by definition a real relationship.

[Realist3]

Wow! The lengths BS's will go.

[Realist3]

Naively on my D-day, I assumed that in order for someone to have an affair and to risk it all if found out that the affair relationship must have been "real".

 

Ironically, as I handed my husband his suitcase and wished him well, I was shocked he wasn't thrilled to leave and take his affair relationship out from the shadow and into the light.

 

I told him it had been unnecessary to have lied to me. The lies hurt me more than the actual affair. He knew me, knew that I had never been one to impose myself in anyone's path of happiness. It was so confusing and I have struggled with the concept of an affair being a real relationship and that once discovered the next logical step would be that the affair partners would be relieved and enthusiastically embrace being together and out in the open.

 

Is an affair a real relationship? I don't think so anymore. I'm interested in other's opinion as to whether they agree or disagree.

 

 

I think this first post is even more illustrative now that the thread has matured of the mental hoops you are trying to jump through for your own... peace of mind.

[Furious]

Wow! The lengths BS's will go.

 

 

Realist....you are entertaining but your input is lax.

 

If you are here only to insult betrayed spouses it shows you lack empathy and are being cruel.

[ladydesigner]

Realist....you are entertaining but your input is lax.

 

If you are here only to insult betrayed spouses it shows you lack empathy and are being cruel.

 

This is usually par for the course for a WS.

[Furious]

SO Moving On... I hope there are no further thread jacks and we can resume getting back on topic.

[96nole]

Wow! The lengths BS's will go.

Care to expand on that?

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I think you are talking about two different WS. Those willing to divorce and those that aren't. For those not willing to divorce means the affair was never really about divorcing. It was just a supplement to the rest of life.

 

I think unless you are talking to all three parties of the triangle taking what OP say here, to what "your" WS says, to what . . . it is just too mixed up with different situations. For some it is about love, for others and you can read them here, it isn't about love and love isn't discussed. It is about sex.

 

Yes people will look for excuses to lessen the negative impact of things. This doesn't change from WS, to OP, to BS to non affair person. So we will say it is tied to x, y, or z. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. People are where they want to be doing exactly what they want to do (outside of mental or physical illness).

 

There is no way to fit all of this into one box. Some people it was never about moving the affair forward, for others nothing in their life is true, for others it is about martyrdom, or fear (which I think is the most common), or love or whatever. At the end of the day it is based on the whys for each individual.

 

In furious' spouses affair, it may have never been about the affair being anything more than a supplement. That is his reality, that is his truth. For another BS, there may be a different why. For another it may be because the WS is just a douchebag and has always been a douchebag. Trying to look at the group as a whole is like trying to look at all BS as a whole. Yes there are similarities but there are also stark differences.

 

And you are right, starting one relationship while in another is not the healthiest behavior.

 

I feel like the use of terms like "supplement" is a way of cleansing the description of a horrible act. Like its a vitamin for a bad marriage, no biggie, everyone needs a supplement. Right. Everybody does it? Everybody lies?

 

But it is in fact a HORRIBLE act, done at minimum without regard to the feelings of at least one material party. And at worse, done to hurt them.

 

I am not saying the people are horrible in totality, but the action is horrible. FACT. No rose colored glasses, no flowery language... horrible. There SHOULD be guilt and sorrow for doing that to another human being.

 

When someone is driving a car that injures or kills someone the result is the same, regardless of whether the driver was a good parent, volunteer, criminal, priest whatever. The consequence is still the consequence.

 

I find it difficult to stomach the affair participants placing blame OF ANY KIND on the BS. Because there are better less horrible choices. The choice of an affair is to CHOOSE to hurt someone.

 

And for a whole lot of us in the world, well at least in the world I live in...honest, truth, caring for our fellow human beings is the norm...not deceit and lying.

 

So when someone does...it takes a bit to come to grips. That's what OP is trying to do.

[Spark1111]

ok, so I wracked my brain over the reality of their relationship...sometimes, I still do!

 

They had coffee, lunch dates TOGETHER when their was no screaming kids, school reports, bill collectors, or a whining aging parent complaining the house was too hot or too cold

 

They held each other's hand, gazed UNINTERRUPTED into each other's eyes and spoke from the heart as in the reality of mine, OUR life, did not, could not, intrude.

 

Uh, I would have KILLED for this romantic luxury folks....

 

They then made countless plans via cell phone, texts, emails to plan their next romantic hook-up...they spoke all day every day of their love, their lust, their longing to escape their reality and just,simply be TOGETHER.

 

I would have KILLED for this too....but I was working three jobs, cleaning the house and staying up until midnight or later to do the damn book report with one of our three children! I was also visiting one of our aging parents in nursing homes or hospitals.

 

WHAT reality is this? WHOSE reality was this? Not mine, not his.

 

But HE was very, very lucky to escape it in the delusional fantasy of his affair. Poor baby. You are so unappreciated, undervalued like I am.

 

let's escape it all and meet secretly, where we can PRETEND we are young teenagers and not those adults with all that drudgery and boredom. We can be young and carefree and create the Romeo and Juliet fantasy where we are both misunderstood and so maligned....

 

I get it. I can see why I could love it. but real? No way, no how.

[Got it]

I assume that for those who practice deceit a "real" affair relationship is subjective as you state above.

 

I did say it was my opinion and I'm entitled to that as everyone else here is entitled to their own opinion.

 

We can agree to disagree. I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers as that was not my intent.

 

I appreciate your input regardless as to our differences of opinion.

 

Furious, It's fine, I wasn't upset. I guess it came across as more energetic than I meant.

 

I was just arguing the line of logic of real based on deceit, i.e. my examples.

 

No harm no foul.

[Got it]

I feel like the use of terms like "supplement" is a way of cleansing the description of a horrible act. Like its a vitamin for a bad marriage, no biggie, everyone needs a supplement. Right. Everybody does it? Everybody lies?

 

But it is in fact a HORRIBLE act, done at minimum without regard to the feelings of at least one material party. And at worse, done to hurt them.

 

I am not saying the people are horrible in totality, but the action is horrible. FACT. No rose colored glasses, no flowery language... horrible. There SHOULD be guilt and sorrow for doing that to another human being.

 

When someone is driving a car that injures or kills someone the result is the same, regardless of whether the driver was a good parent, volunteer, criminal, priest whatever. The consequence is still the consequence.

 

I find it difficult to stomach the affair participants placing blame OF ANY KIND on the BS. Because there are better less horrible choices. The choice of an affair is to CHOOSE to hurt someone.

 

And for a whole lot of us in the world, well at least in the world I live in...honest, truth, caring for our fellow human beings is the norm...not deceit and lying.

 

So when someone does...it takes a bit to come to grips. That's what OP is trying to do.

 

What!?! We are talking about why one would leave or not leave and whether or not it is "real" or not and now that I said that an affair may be used as a supplement it is now a way to minimize the impact of the affair? ??

 

Why did you go off on this tangent. In no way did I blame the BS in my post. Why did that cause you to go to this line of argument?

 

I am sorry if saying that one would have an affair as a supplement to their life caused you to trigger like this.

[Realist3]

Realist....you are entertaining but your input is lax.

 

If you are here only to insult betrayed spouses it shows you lack empathy and are being cruel.

 

 

I'm sorry, I have been really busy today. It is not meant as insult just an observation. I mentioned it earlier in the thread what I meant by the comment. That is in the best interest for both WS's and BS's to minimize the affair relationship if they are going to attempt R. And what I have read in this thread is a great deal of just that. One person said because they didn't have to deal with all of the dealings of daily life in the house, such as kids grades, laundry, etc.. You mentioned it being open. Others mentioned a slew of other reasons which really don't impact the question of whether it is a real relationship.

[Got it]

At the end of the day this is really a personal viewpoint. If you don't feel that they are real, then they aren't real. If you feel they are real, they are real. Primarily, you do have WS and OP discussing they are real but BS discussing they aren't. I think the difference there may be worth looking at and digging into but not at the risk of hurting others.

 

What is the line from Couples Retreat, " I know my truth". :laugh: (just adding some brevity)

[Spark1111]

What!?! We are talking about why one would leave or not leave and whether or not it is "real" or not and now that I said that an affair may be used as a supplement it is now a way to minimize the impact of the affair? ??

 

Why did you go off on this tangent. In no way did I blame the BS in my post. Why did that cause you to go to this line of argument?

 

I am sorry if saying that one would have an affair as a supplement to their life caused you to trigger like this.

 

Well GOTit, I get it.....

 

While one partner is engaging in the affair, the OTHER is holding up the REAL relationship...the one with ALL the responsibilities and obligations and support.

 

like I said, I would have KILLED for my fWS to invite me to lunch, hold my hand, let me vent about my trials and tribulations, and make ardent, non-stop plans to TAKE ME away from it all.....

 

he NEVER did. In fact, his expectation was that I should be doing this.....then bemoaned I wasn't interested in being with him.....

 

WTF????? Lose, lose Spark.

 

In MC he was challenged: WHAT did you give, put in, invest into the marital relationship? How much TIME did you devote?

 

Did you call her? Text her? date her? Appreciate her? send her flowers? cards? Woo her? Plan to take her away?

 

NONE. None at all.

 

We EACH get the relationship we work for. reality be damned.

[jnel921]

My husband didn't think it was real. She was a piece of easy a$$. He never once told her he loved her. in fact he told her how he loved me and would never leave me.

 

It's a selfish and hurtful act. The consequences are very real. The question is how one responds after DDay and what was the real intent of the A.

[Journee]

Naively on my D-day, I assumed that in order for someone to have an affair and to risk it all if found out that the affair relationship must have been "real".

 

Ironically, as I handed my husband his suitcase and wished him well, I was shocked he wasn't thrilled to leave and take his affair relationship out from the shadow and into the light.

 

I told him it had been unnecessary to have lied to me. The lies hurt me more than the actual affair. He knew me, knew that I had never been one to impose myself in anyone's path of happiness. It was so confusing and I have struggled with the concept of an affair being a real relationship and that once discovered the next logical step would be that the affair partners would be relieved and enthusiastically embrace being together and out in the open.

 

Is an affair a real relationship? I don't think so anymore. I'm interested in other's opinion as to whether they agree or disagree.

 

 

Is it real? IMO, yes. It exists. It happens in real time with real human beings. What quality or importance does it have? Case by case. I spent some time in my mind trying to understand how any interaction in an affair can "mean nothing". It makes no sense to me. I don't buy it. For me it is easier for me to just accept that it happened (in my case more than one woman). I am trying to take back my power in myself. It is hard. I don't want to compete with the memory of these betrayals or how he felt during incident a or b. All I know was he was there. He was present and he acted on his own. No arm twisting or threatening. He was where he wanted to be. So it is very real. Those facts are very real.

 

I believe they had a friendship and an unhealthy need to fill voids within themselves. In the after math he is making his choice as to where he wants to be again. This time it is with me. Is it real with me? Is the R real like the A was? It exists. It is happening in real time with real human beings.

 

This affair ish is as real as it gets.

[Journee]

And I can certainly understand why BS's and WS's that try to reconcile make every effort to minimize the affair relationship. It is a practical necessity.

 

 

Maybe. Just as some AP's practically dehumanize the BS. It's all just trying to survive in the thick. NO ONE wants to feel like they don't matter ,are a throw away part of their loved one's world. That they are less deserving of love and respect than the next man.

 

I often wonder if these kind of statements are meant to hurt. It's almost like saying "Sorry BS ,you could never amount to the hill of beans the AP was". Well, I'm not picking up what is being put down. These situations are so sticky and have a way of making everyone feel like crud. Even if a WS falls madly in love with their AP ,does that somehow make the BS less than? It always come across like that to me. Like "Oh ,your spouse cheated on you..what's wrong with you?" Yuck.

 

Nothing is written in stone and even when love feels like it is ten feet tall and bullet proof ,it fails. We are all taking chances at the end of the day. I'm not going to fain confidence in what is obviously a cracked foundation. It's ok not to be sure. Ish happens.

 

Whew! lol Trigger city.