Consolidated 'looks' discussion and society's standards of beauty for men vs women

[PJKino]

Wouldnt the fact that most women prefer tall men also indicate how visual they are?

[bodhesatva]

Wouldnt the fact that most women prefer tall men also indicate how visual they are?

 

It definitely would. Mostly I agree with you PJ, although I'd caution you if you're trying to suggest that women and men are 100% alike, either in their sexual attitudes or otherwise.

 

There are real, significant differences in how male and female brains tend to work, allowing for exceptions of course because the human body isn't a machine. However, in regards to the specific conversation you are having (about visual queues), you are right that both men and women are highly motivated visually.

 

Some differences, as an example: women are much more likely to be aroused by attractive women than men are by attractive men. Women tend to have greater color perception, while men are typically better at perceiving and tracking moving targets. There are lots of other important differences between men and women, too.

[terlislee]

I don't spend all of my life in my apartment playing video games.

 

It's silly that people keep assuming that I never go out into the world and interact with people.

 

I know you don't, I used it as an example, but from the few of your threads I've read you definitely don't socialize with people as much as you could. I think you're a cool guy that can be very funny, but I'm afraid you don't let the girls you talk to see it. Your whole dismissal of having friends you regularly meet up with and share activities with is a bit of a double-edged sword. Having them would make you feel less alone and help you build more of a social confidence, give you things to talk to around girls (hardly any girl wants a guy who is a complete loner), provide you with real life feedback plus when you share some mutual friends girls are immediately more warm to any kind of approaches towards them. When I talk confidence I don't mean being cocky or overly confident loving yourself to bits, just liking yourself enough not to hand over your self esteem to every girl you talk to/are interested in for her to decide your value as a man. My latest ex was very shy and a bit socially awkward as well and I'd never ever notice him based on his looks, we met accidentaly in a pub it was a friend of a friend's friend thing and after talking to him for about 20 minutes I thought he was one of the most amazing guys I ever met. Just based on his personality only and the way he talked about things and the way he was interested in what I had to say. For a girl to be comfortable and drawn towards you you have to project the same. Relationships are most importantly friendships with the added affection, and if a girl can sense you are only interested in her as a potential sexual partner, not as a person in the first place, then it's game over. Are you still going to the anime club? I think you mentioned surfing is there any way you can join some mixed group to do it, or some kind of volunteering. Salsa is awesome but it's a bit of a you against the girls environment and you constantly looking for signs in them as potential girlfriends, you need to get in a situation where you enjoy the company of girls and interact with them just as you would with your family or male friends, without any hidden agenda. Also that's when I asked about the things you love doing or are good at, since talking about that should put you more on ease naturally and that's when the flirting comes in. Also stop telling yourself you're nothing special and stuff like that, hating yourself hardly goes hand in hand with trying to impress girls and trust me they can tell.

 

I still remember one of the first post I read by you on here, because it seemed so ridiculous. I'll look it up:

 

Most of the times I'm quiet, it's because I don't know what to say.

 

So in terms of interacting with women, I usually let them do most of the talking but that also means they control the direction of the conversation as well. And most girls aren't going to turn a conversation sexual.

 

Yesterday I had about a 20 minute conversation with a girl I'm kinda into, but it was about her class, her coming internship and her house remodeling. There was no flirting, nothing sexual and honestly I was starting to get bored.

 

I don't think you act like this all the time, but really. You have to be interested in the girl and show it to her when she's talking, seriously relationships are mostly about hanging out and having conversations about normal evryday stuff, it's not just sex sex sex. You can't let them do most of the talking, more likely than not she will think you're bland or boring and never get to know the things about you she might actually find attractive. You're right about girls not turning conversation sexual, but really what does that even mean. If you meant flirting then initiate it but start subtle - looking in her eyes, smiling, showing you are comfortable being around her, making her feel special and once again, showing interest in the conversation. There's no need for anything sexual to be mentioned to show your attraction, it's mostly the body language, the teasing etc. I think you're making the flirting and seduction process into something magical because it's GIRLS, but really for the most part it's basic human interaction that you sadly won't learn from the internet, you have to live it. If being more social makes you feel uncomfortable and like you would be leaving your comfort zone that's double the reason to do it. Push yourself more and you will thank yourself later. Asking out three girls per year is nothing, and try to open up to forming new friendships too, it's not healthy to be on your own so much and when a girl rejects you it might not feel like the end of the world for you anymore.

[carhill]

In romantic relations, personality does not make up for a lack of attractiveness to a particular person.

 

IOW, by whatever functionality their feelings of attraction turn upon, if you (general you, man or woman) are not attractive to them, all the health and wonderful (in general) personality traits are moot. I learned this many years ago with hearing the then popular line of 'oh, you're sweet'. Translated: 'You're a good guy but I have no romantic interest in you and never will' Personality is irrelevant in such instances.

[GirlontheLam]

On facebook today I saw a post from someone about "beauty." I want you all to do an experiment. Go to google image search, and type in beauty. See what comes up. Now type in beautiful woman, and see what comes up.

 

So I am a dark skinned black woman. I might was well be invisible when it comes to discussions about looks/beauty/etc. We don't exist according to the media. People who look like me don't star in shows. People who look like me don't play the love interest. And this isn't a black/white issue. Take a look at the popular Bollywood actresses. OR let's talk about how Asian women are stereotypes. And latinas. Etc. It goes on forever.

 

1. Women are judged on looks all the time: inside of relationships, in the workplace, when walking down the street etc.

2. The "standard of beauty" is very very limited if you fall out of the box of conventionally attractive (pale skin, long hair, thin.....)

3. MEssaging early on, overemphasises the importance of looks for women.

 

Now let's think about some of the most "powerful" women in politics. Hilary Clinton, Michelle Obama, Condi Rice, Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, Sarah Palin, Nikki Haley, Margaret Thatcher.

 

Now how many times can you think of where the fashions, hairstyles and looks of these women wer discussed.

 

Now let's pick a few male politicians: George Bush, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Michael Bloomberg, Corey Booker. How many times can you think of where their wardrobes or hairstyles were discussed.

 

The message is really clear to me. No matter how smart you are, how accomplished you are or how much you change the world, it is all second fiddle to how pretty you are and what you are wearing!

 

You should be surprised we don't complain about it more often.

 

***And I am always a bit insecure when a man who is of way above average looks is sending signals. I know I am an awesome person.....but I am not the belle of the ball.

[Phoe]

Not a single one of my past boyfriends was particularly good looking. It was their personality that made me like them.

 

I often got comments "why are you with him? he's ugly, you can do so much better" -surefire way to get me pissed off! lol.

 

Of course the personality on all of them ended up being NOT what I thought it was, they all cheated -___-

 

but looks were never a consideration

[ThaWholigan]

On facebook today I saw a post from someone about "beauty." I want you all to do an experiment. Go to google image search, and type in beauty. See what comes up. Now type in beautiful woman, and see what comes up.

 

So I am a dark skinned black woman. I might was well be invisible when it comes to discussions about looks/beauty/etc. We don't exist according to the media. People who look like me don't star in shows. People who look like me don't play the love interest. And this isn't a black/white issue. Take a look at the popular Bollywood actresses. OR let's talk about how Asian women are stereotypes. And latinas. Etc. It goes on forever.

 

1. Women are judged on looks all the time: inside of relationships, in the workplace, when walking down the street etc.

2. The "standard of beauty" is very very limited if you fall out of the box of conventionally attractive (pale skin, long hair, thin.....)

3. MEssaging early on, overemphasises the importance of looks for women.

 

Now let's think about some of the most "powerful" women in politics. Hilary Clinton, Michelle Obama, Condi Rice, Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, Sarah Palin, Nikki Haley, Margaret Thatcher.

 

Now how many times can you think of where the fashions, hairstyles and looks of these women wer discussed.

 

Now let's pick a few male politicians: George Bush, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Michael Bloomberg, Corey Booker. How many times can you think of where their wardrobes or hairstyles were discussed.

 

The message is really clear to me. No matter how smart you are, how accomplished you are or how much you change the world, it is all second fiddle to how pretty you are and what you are wearing!

 

You should be surprised we don't complain about it more often.

 

***And I am always a bit insecure when a man who is of way above average looks is sending signals. I know I am an awesome person.....but I am not the belle of the ball.

Dark skinned black women are absolutely beautiful. I don't give a f*ck what the media says.

[terlislee]

In romantic relations, personality does not make up for a lack of attractiveness to a particular person.

 

IOW, by whatever functionality their feelings of attraction turn upon, if you (general you, man or woman) are not attractive to them, all the health and wonderful (in general) personality traits are moot. I learned this many years ago with hearing the then popular line of 'oh, you're sweet'. Translated: 'You're a good guy but I have no romantic interest in you and never will' Personality is irrelevant in such instances.

 

Yes if you're not attractive, but that's not physical looks only, it's the way you talk, body language and all that as well. And personality can create attraction very easily - I had partners I wouldn't find physically good looking at first, but after chemistry came into play I'd get incredibly wet from just thinking of them, to me they were hot and beautiful all through the relationship and stayed that after the break-up too. Of course it doesn't work for everyone, no guy can get every girl he wants, but if somebody does nothing for me physically there's a pretty big chance he will for some other girl. I see it with my friends all the time, at some point they all had boyfriends I didn't find attractive at all.

[carhill]

You described your particular attraction style, of which there are billions. That's why I used the verbiage 'particular person'. I personally think the thread title and OP are too focused on 'looks' which is why I used the word 'attraction'.

[kaylan]

It definitely would. Mostly I agree with you PJ, although I'd caution you if you're trying to suggest that women and men are 100% alike, either in their sexual attitudes or otherwise.

 

There are real, significant differences in how male and female brains tend to work, allowing for exceptions of course because the human body isn't a machine. However, in regards to the specific conversation you are having (about visual queues), you are right that both men and women are highly motivated visually.

 

Some differences, as an example: women are much more likely to be aroused by attractive women than men are by attractive men. Women tend to have greater color perception, while men are typically better at perceiving and tracking moving targets. There are lots of other important differences between men and women, too.

The bolded in untrue. Consider society's affect on sexuality and how open people can be about their sexual attraction. Our society basically pushes women to be attracted to other women, and stifles the idea that a man dare be attracted to another man. Why? Well lets be real here. Straight males control society, so why wouldnt popular culture and media push female on female sex, and call male on male sex gross and unpleasant?

 

The brainwashing is so pervasive that even bisexual women hold double standards against bisexual males when it comes to sex and dating.

 

Also you have to remember that in the past, male on male attraction and sex was widespread in many cultures.

 

I personally think sexuality is part nature and nurture. Sure Im straight now, and am not attracted to men...but I cant say that growing up in Ancient Greece wouldnt change who I am as a man.

On facebook today I saw a post from someone about "beauty." I want you all to do an experiment. Go to google image search, and type in beauty. See what comes up. Now type in beautiful woman, and see what comes up.

 

So I am a dark skinned black woman. I might was well be invisible when it comes to discussions about looks/beauty/etc. We don't exist according to the media. People who look like me don't star in shows. People who look like me don't play the love interest. And this isn't a black/white issue. Take a look at the popular Bollywood actresses. OR let's talk about how Asian women are stereotypes. And latinas. Etc. It goes on forever.

 

1. Women are judged on looks all the time: inside of relationships, in the workplace, when walking down the street etc.

2. The "standard of beauty" is very very limited if you fall out of the box of conventionally attractive (pale skin, long hair, thin.....)

3. MEssaging early on, overemphasises the importance of looks for women.

 

Now let's think about some of the most "powerful" women in politics. Hilary Clinton, Michelle Obama, Condi Rice, Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, Sarah Palin, Nikki Haley, Margaret Thatcher.

 

Now how many times can you think of where the fashions, hairstyles and looks of these women wer discussed.

 

Now let's pick a few male politicians: George Bush, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Michael Bloomberg, Corey Booker. How many times can you think of where their wardrobes or hairstyles were discussed.

 

The message is really clear to me. No matter how smart you are, how accomplished you are or how much you change the world, it is all second fiddle to how pretty you are and what you are wearing!

 

You should be surprised we don't complain about it more often.

 

***And I am always a bit insecure when a man who is of way above average looks is sending signals. I know I am an awesome person.....but I am not the belle of the ball.

The most widespread standrd of beauty around the world is the Eurocentric standard of beauty. And this is on all continents.

[KungFuJoe]

kaylan,

 

The bolded IS true.

[terlislee]

You described your particular attraction style, of which there are billions. That's why I used the verbiage 'particular person'. I personally think the thread title and OP are too focused on 'looks' which is why I used the word 'attraction'.

 

Yep then I agree - personality can compensate for lack of looks, but definitely can't create romantic attraction on its own.

[somedude81]

I still remember one of the first post I read by you on here, because it seemed so ridiculous. I'll look it up:

 

Most of the times I'm quiet, it's because I don't know what to say.

 

So in terms of interacting with women, I usually let them do most of the talking but that also means they control the direction of the conversation as well. And most girls aren't going to turn a conversation sexual.

 

Yesterday I had about a 20 minute conversation with a girl I'm kinda into, but it was about her class, her coming internship and her house remodeling. There was no flirting, nothing sexual and honestly I was starting to get bored.

 

I don't think you act like this all the time, but really. You have to be interested in the girl and show it to her when she's talking, seriously relationships are mostly about hanging out and having conversations about normal evryday stuff, it's not just sex sex sex.

Heh, I remember that conversation.

 

I was kinda thinking that I should have said, "Shut up already so I can ask you out." She's probably long forgotten that we ever had that conversation.

 

That girl doesn't have the slightest idea that I had some interest in her. Why? Because of the things we've talked about.

 

It's easy to be interested in a girl and show it to her in conversation. I'm very good at doing that.

 

I know relationships are not about sex sex sex and are also about hanging out and having conversations.

But sex is what makes the difference between a friendship and a relationship.

 

If not one of my conversations with a woman turns sexual or flirty, we will never progress beyond friends.

 

You can't let them do most of the talking, more likely than not she will think you're bland or boring and never get to know the things about you she might actually find attractive.

So basically I have to compete with girls for the floor. Most of the girls I meet are great at talking and they can go on forever with minimal input from myself. From what I've discovered, the vast majority of girls are ego-centric and only want to talk about themselves. Very rarely has a girl asked me about myself. The conversations are almost always about them. Naturally the girl ends up speaking a lot more than I do.

 

 

I know you don't, I used it as an example, but from the few of your threads I've read you definitely don't socialize with people as much as you could. I think you're a cool guy that can be very funny, but I'm afraid you don't let the girls you talk to see it. Your whole dismissal of having friends you regularly meet up with and share activities with is a bit of a double-edged sword. Having them would make you feel less alone and help you build more of a social confidence, give you things to talk to around girls (hardly any girl wants a guy who is a complete loner), provide you with real life feedback plus when you share some mutual friends girls are immediately more warm to any kind of approaches towards them.

I know friends are important, and I have not avoided making them. What I don't do is go out of my way to make them. I've tried that already, several times and it's never paid off. I always ended up alone in the end.

 

 

 

When I talk confidence I don't mean being cocky or overly confident loving yourself to bits, just liking yourself enough not to hand over your self esteem to every girl you talk to/are interested in for her to decide your value as a man.

That is a more complicated issue and not one I think I can handle at present.

 

 

 

 

My latest ex was very shy and a bit socially awkward as well and I'd never ever notice him based on his looks, we met accidentaly in a pub it was a friend of a friend's friend thing and after talking to him for about 20 minutes I thought he was one of the most amazing guys I ever met. Just based on his personality only and the way he talked about things and the way he was interested in what I had to say. For a girl to be comfortable and drawn towards you you have to project the same. Relationships are most importantly friendships with the added affection, and if a girl can sense you are only interested in her as a potential sexual partner, not as a person in the first place, then it's game over.

As I have said countless times on this forum, I don't give girls the impression that I see them as potential sexual partners and they only see me as wanting friends and respond in the same way. When I eventually show them my interest they almost freak out because the entire time I was inadvertently telling them that I only wanted friendship.

 

Recently I'm trying to be more obvious with my interest and I'm only being shot down. It almost makes me want to go back to the time when I at least had some female companionship even if they wouldn't dream of even kissing me.

 

Are you still going to the anime club? I think you mentioned surfing is there any way you can join some mixed group to do it, or some kind of volunteering. Salsa is awesome but it's a bit of a you against the girls environment and you constantly looking for signs in them as potential girlfriends, you need to get in a situation where you enjoy the company of girls and interact with them just as you would with your family or male friends, without any hidden agenda.

In other words, show them that I just want to be friends.

 

I have to pass on that.

 

You're right about girls not turning conversation sexual, but really what does that even mean. If you meant flirting then initiate it but start subtle - looking in her eyes, smiling, showing you are comfortable being around her, making her feel special and once again, showing interest in the conversation. There's no need for anything sexual to be mentioned to show your attraction, it's mostly the body language, the teasing etc.

I do those things already and I'm still single! So obviously I'm doing something wrong!

 

I need to go beyond talking about the ice skating show she went to on the weekend to her thinking about sleeping with me.

 

I need to go from the "friendship cliff" to the "date cliff." Every time I've tried to do it I've fallen into the valley and never spoke to her again.

 

 

Asking out three girls per year is nothing, and try to open up to forming new friendships too, it's not healthy to be on your own so much and when a girl rejects you it might not feel like the end of the world for you anymore.

I know that asking out there girls a year isn't that much. Normally I ask around 8 a year. Though when I keep getting nothing but rejections, it's really hard to get the motivation to try. At this point all I'm doing is proving how undesirable I am.

[edgygirl]

Wouldnt the fact that most women prefer tall men also indicate how visual they are?

 

No. I only date men taller than 5'10, prefer 6'4 which is 1' taller than me, and it's about physical contact - at least for me. I like to feel protected/dominated at the same time, it turns me on. I tried to date a 5'9 guy and was turned off in bed. I wish I didn't feel like this, but I can't help it

[kaylan]

kaylan,

 

The bolded IS true.

If it was, then there wouldnt be so many men on the down low.

 

And if it was true, I wouldnt have "straight" guys hitting me up for "casual fun" when I post on craigslist looking for new platonic male and female friends. Seriously, these so called straight guys reply to my post in the platonic section, and ask me if I want to have discreet fun...and they say they are just experimienting. Gtfo with that....

[somedude81]

No. I only date men taller than 5'10, prefer 6'4 which is 1' taller than me, and it's about physical contact - at least for me. I like to feel protected/dominated at the same time, it turns me on. I tried to date a 5'9 guy and was turned off in bed. I wish I didn't feel like this, but I can't help it

And I only date women that have boobs bigger than your head.

[edgygirl]

And I only date women that have boobs bigger than your head.

 

It's fine SD We all have our preferences. But... I at least tried to go for shorter guys before ruling them out! Have you tried any flat chested girls before stating this? As for me, honestly I haven't completely ruled them out yet. I keep an eye open and will try again if there's any chance I might be attracted to a specific one.

[somedude81]

It's fine SD We all have our preferences. But... I at least tried to go for shorter guys before ruling them out! Have you tried any flat chested girls before stating this? As for me, honestly I haven't completely ruled them out yet. I keep an eye open and will try again if there's any chance I might be attracted to a specific one.

I did, and they kept turning me down because I wasn't a full foot taller than them.

 

Guess I should limit myself to women that are 4'6 or shorter.

[KungFuJoe]

If it was, then there wouldnt be so many men on the down low.

 

And if it was true, I wouldnt have "straight" guys hitting me up for "casual fun" when I post on craigslist looking for new platonic male and female friends. Seriously, these so called straight guys reply to my post in the platonic section, and ask me if I want to have discreet fun...and they say they are just experimienting. Gtfo with that....

 

I would think those guys are just gay or bi.

 

I dunno...maybe it's the circles we run in but I seen plenty of girl on girl action where they aren't lesbians or even bi, but they just like kissing other girls because it's "fun". I don't think you could find many guys who like kissing other guys "just for fun".

[edgygirl]

I did, and they kept turning me down because I wasn't a full foot taller than them.

 

Guess I should limit myself to women that are 4'6 or shorter.

 

Hm did they tell you that was the reason? I doubt it. I never told any guy this.

 

And as everyone says here, every girl is different. I am known amongst my friends to only go for the tall guys. They, as opposed to me, don't care about it that much. I see tons of short guys with cute looking gf/s in the subway/streets so what you're saying is clearly not the case.

[Treasa]

What's considered attractive by "media" and what *I* find attractive are two different things. Ryan Gosling doesn't do a single thing for me. Most of the celeb guys that most women get excited for don't do a damn thing for me.

 

It's why people are always perplexed to see me with the guys who aren't really good looking, but can make an entire room laugh, can challenge me, can give me incredible sex, and know the difference between a Tie Fighter and an X-Wing.

[bodhesatva]

The bolded in untrue. Consider society's affect on sexuality and how open people can be about their sexual attraction. Our society basically pushes women to be attracted to other women, and stifles the idea that a man dare be attracted to another man. Why? Well lets be real here. Straight males control society, so why wouldnt popular culture and media push female on female sex, and call male on male sex gross and unpleasant?

 

I definitely understand these societal pressures and I agree that they exist, but what I said is absolutely true. Women are more aroused by women than men are by men, even when cultural variables are controlled for. Also, women are aroused by animals mating in a way that men are not.

 

FuturePundit: Study on Differences in Female, Male Sexuality

http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/The%20Washington%20Times.htm

 

This doesn't mean women are in to bestiality, or that women are all bisexual. It means that arousal is weird and doesn't work the same way in both men and women.

 

The brainwashing is so pervasive that even bisexual women hold double standards against bisexual males when it comes to sex and dating.

 

Also you have to remember that in the past, male on male attraction and sex was widespread in many cultures.

 

I am not saying that you are wrong; clearly it's much more acceptable for a woman to be bisexual in American society than it is a man. I'm just saying that the science does not suggest that's all that's going on.

Edited January 6, 2013 by bodhesatva

[terlislee]

I know that asking out there girls a year isn't that much. Normally I ask around 8 a year. Though when I keep getting nothing but rejections, it's really hard to get the motivation to try. At this point all I'm doing is proving how undesirable I am.

 

Wrong mindset, I don't think you're undesirable though some of your opinions would drive me up the wall lol. I think you'll get there SD. I think your biggest downfall is the fear of rejection because you're putting so much at stake every time you ask someone out. When I suggested being in an environment where you communicate with girls on casual basis I didn't mean becoming close friends with them, just getting yourself more relaxed and familiar with their reactions without the pressure of wanting them to feel attracted to you, since you seem to freeze up a bit, get nervous and maybe lose your calm a little when thinking that way, then even if you keep cracking jokes left and right you might be coming off as trying too hard. As for flirting and not letting girls take over the whole conversation it's about learning the right amount of assertiveness and reading their body signals. When a girl talks too much she is often afraid there would be silence if she stopped or she just sees you as a friend to vent to. It's up to you to catch her attention by saying something interesting and steer the conversation in another direction. At the end she should be able to think you're cool and wanting to talk to you again. Compliment her in a teasing way to show interest but don't come onto her too hard if she doesn't seem to play along, she probably won't think about sleeping with you at first anyway, women don't really do that, it's more about establishing some basic mutual attraction and chemistry. Don't approach it so seriously, try to find some fun in the whole process. From a woman's point of view if she says no it doesn't really mean she is rejecting you as a person, she doesn't even know you, it's wrong circumstances or just lack of romantic interest most of the time, so don't let it define your life. I've only not rejected a handful of people in my life and it never meant I thought the rest of them sucked.

[kaylan]

I definitely understand these societal pressures and I agree that they exist, but what I said is absolutely true. Women are more aroused by women than men are by men, even when cultural variables are controlled for. Also, women are aroused by animals mating in a way that men are not.

 

FuturePundit: Study on Differences in Female, Male Sexuality

The Washington Times

 

This doesn't mean women are in to bestiality, or that women are all bisexual. It means that arousal is weird and doesn't work the same way in both men and women.

 

 

 

I am not saying that you are wrong; clearly it's much more acceptable for a woman to be bisexual in American society than it is a man. I'm just saying that the science does not suggest that's all that's going on.

You mean the science from flawed studies? The science that also ignores how many people lie about their orientation and attraction? Or the science that uses small sample sizes from a university or one segment of a population and tries to apply it to all people, all the while ignoring how sexuality has been different and changing throughout history?

 

Ive seen these studies regarding orientation and they arent without their flaws and biases. But do share some if you wanna further this discussion.

[bodhesatva]

You mean the science from flawed studies? The science that also ignores how many people lie about their orientation and attraction? Or the science that uses small sample sizes from a university or one segment of a population and tries to apply it to all people, all the while ignoring how sexuality has been different and changing throughout history?

 

Ive seen these studies regarding orientation and they arent without their flaws and biases. But do share some if you wanna further this discussion.

 

I just linked two in the post you just quoted. Northewestern, in particular, is hardly some kook pop psy think tank; it's a well respected research university. And these are neuro studies, so it isn't something people can fake. They are studying brains, not people's stated reactions.

 

I mean, I could be wrong, of course. And so could these studies. It's always possible to be wrong. But so far, I have offered several pieces of scientific evidence, and you have offered none. Simply insisting that the other person's position is "flawed" and dismissing the science without reading it -- and then providing no evidence of your own -- is not a sign of a good argument. I'm not sure why this bothers you so much, because I've just spent a good amount of time catching up on this forum (I'm new!) and you generally seem like a reasonable poster.