Men talking about women

[Janesays]

Rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction. It is an act of violence against a woman and in some cases a man. Men rape because they want to control a woman and hurt her and one of the most heinous ways to hurt a woman is rape.

 

The mind of a rapist and the mind of a man who is just turned on by an attractive woman are two very different things.

 

I do not propose to know the mind of a man which is why I talked about MY feelings and no one else's. Someone here suggested that if women didn't like it, they should speak up. I simply discussed my experiences and gave reasons why I personally didn't speak up in the past. Fear of violence, fear of social stigmatizing, humiliation, youth... and the fact that most times, speaking up leads to being dismissed, belittled and treated like a lot of women in this thread are being treated.

 

Oops, sorry. Ignore what I just said. What I meant was, "awww shucks! You boys will be boys!"

[TheBigQuestion]

Exactly.

 

Further, after reading the OP, I assumed that honest, real answers were wanted from women. The belittling, dismissive, sarcastic tones I'm reading from the men in this thread are exactly why I usually refrain from participating in discussions like this.

 

The quotes over the word "objectifying" and the tendency to be purposely personally insulting indicates, to me, that true understanding here was never the goal or intent. Instead, I think some just wanted past behavior validated with an, "awww shucks! You boys will be boys!"

 

I apologize for taking this seriously. As I said before, I will defend anyone's right to say whatever they want to whoever they want. But I will also urge you to consider that should you fail to act in a respectful and mature fashion, don't be surprised if I judge you as childish, emotionally stunted, and not very bright. *shrugs

 

And once again, I do not once recall anyone (save for DrGoebbels, perhaps) , male or female, endorsing the idea that men directing crass/vulgar sexual comments to women in public is behavior we as a society should encourage. Where this thread went off the deep end was when it was suggested that virtually all discussion of the opposite sex's physical features, particularly critical discussion, should be curtailed in favor of saving the feelings of a select few. This was followed by all sorts of tenuous and unsubstantiated attempts to correlate or establish causation between saying a woman has a "nice rack" and sexual assault.

[Anela]

I will concede that some women get more unwanted attention than others and I may be one of them. But, unlike you, I know EXACTLY why I'm getting it and it's not because of some 'vibe' I give off. (Unless, of course, you think I'm capable of giving off this 'vibe' in childhood or when I'm SLEEPING, for the love of God!)

 

In fact, I've already told you why:

 

1. I'm small. I'm very visually easy to overpower. Coming in at a whooping 5 foot tall and able to wear children's sized shoes, I appear more easily dominated. Even a guy who is 5'5 and 140lbs knows he can take me in a fight. Heck, I've been towered by CHILDREN.

 

2. I have large D-cup breasts, a very curvy butt, and a tiny waist. It is a stereo-typically over sexualized body. Which is why I constantly have to 'dress down.' You know how you can see a woman with smaller breasts and straighter hips walking down the street wearing a tank top and think, "There's a woman walking down the street wearing a tank top. Must be hot outside." Well, it can be 99 degrees and if *I* walk down the street wearing a tank top, I look like a freaking porn star.

 

It was worse when I was ALSO blonde.

 

And I just really want to stress this because you are still subtly insinuating that women like me must be 'asking for it' which is so freaking dead wrong it makes me sick to my stomach:

 

I cannot help what I look like. I cannot change my body type. I would if I could, but I CAN'T. And just because I look this way DOES NOT MEAN I LIKE being sexually assaulted. It's DNA, nothing more. Not a 'signal' or a 'vibe' that I'd like to be treated like meat for you to gorge yourself on.

 

You've described the way I've felt since I started to develop. In my early teens, I was afraid to walk down the road by myself - I experienced cat-calls, and disgusting behaviour from guys of all ages. One in particular stands out, because he was curb-crawling, and being gross - I moved as fast as I could toward the closest store, but I was afraid he was going to grab me right there. It's *horrible*, to put it mildly.

 

I can't wear tank tops without looking like I'm asking for attention - as if I pump them up every morning, just so that I can have guys talk to them. A friend of mine has been told that she shouldn't bring them to the party, if she isn't willing to show them off. I wear dark tops, and am careful with styles.

 

Certain comments would be different coming from a boyfriend, and welcomed (not the one I just mentioned - respectful comments). As long as that isn't all that's drawing their attention.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Anela

[ThaWholigan]

And once again, I do not once recall anyone (save for DrGoebbels, perhaps) , male or female, endorsing the idea that men directing crass/vulgar sexual comments to women in public is behavior we as a society should encourage.

 

Exactly.

 

 

Where this thread went off the deep end was when it was suggested that virtually all discussion of the opposite sex's physical features, particularly critical discussion, should be curtailed in favor of saving the feelings of a select few. This was followed by all sorts of tenuous and unsubstantiated attempts to correlate or establish causation between saying a woman has a "nice rack" and sexual assault.

That was part of a reasonable discussion IMO. It was a bit of a reach, but I can understand that feeling really. I do see how that conclusion can be drawn. The only thing I took issue with in this thread was being compared to the men who behaved in a crass manner, and that I have belittled anyone's plight - which is wrong IMO.

[january2011]

I feel that this discussion evolved from talking about women's bodies to women receiving unwanted attention from men. Since only the recipient/target can decide if the attention is wanted or not, it does seem like there aren't going to be any set rules that can be agreed universally. That is, each individual woman decides for herself whether she wants any, some, no attention from a particular man or men in general. And whether or not she wants any reference made to her body parts.

 

Just as with every social interaction involving individual differences, guys are just going to have to play it by ear. Some women won't mind. But some women will. I think that strict social etiquette dictates that references to body parts are out of bounds in most contexts. However, not everyone moves in social circles that require such strict codes of conduct.

[ThaWholigan]

I feel that this discussion evolved from talking about women's bodies to women receiving unwanted attention from men. Since only the recipient/target can decide if the attention is wanted or not, it does seem like there aren't going to be any set rules that can be agreed universally. That is, each individual woman decides for herself whether she wants any, some, no attention from a particular man or men in general. And whether or not she wants any reference made to her body parts.

 

Just as with every social interaction involving individual differences, guys are just going to have to play it by ear. Some women won't mind. But some women will. I think that strict social etiquette dictates that references to body parts are out of bounds in most contexts. However, not everyone moves in social circles that require such strict codes of conduct.

So what about on the internet?

 

If a man saw a woman he liked and wanted to describe her, and does so by not just talking about her personality, but he talks about her body too, in a descriptive, flattering manner - is he not to mention her body? Or allowed to, for fear of upsetting women at the idea that he is describing this woman's body?

 

Bear in mind (in light of accusations of belittlement), I'm asking these questions genuinely and innocently, not to spark negative emotions.

 

 

(That I have to preface my posts in this manner now is embarrassing )

[january2011]

So what about on the internet?

 

If a man saw a woman he liked and wanted to describe her, and does so by not just talking about her personality, but he talks about her body too, in a descriptive, flattering manner - is he not to mention her body? Or allowed to, for fear of upsetting women at the idea that he is describing this woman's body?

 

Bear in mind (in light of accusations of belittlement), I'm asking these questions genuinely and innocently, not to spark negative emotions.

 

 

(That I have to preface my posts in this manner now is embarrassing )

 

For the record, ThaWholigan, there is very little that you've posted in this thread or any other thread that has really offended me. Anything that has raised an eyebrow is probably due to generational and cultural differences, which are allowed on the internet and indeed in life, in general.

 

Back to your question - I don't know is the short, honest answer.

 

A longer answer is that you have to judge for yourself. If you know that you are on a site where the majority of women (and men) are going to be easily offended by your descriptions, then you'd tailor your posts accordingly. However, that would be the case for any site and any topic - you lurk first to get a feel for the culture, then you take into account your audience and you pick your battles.

 

There are always going to be a handful of people who might get offended. As long as you adhere to the site's policies for respectful posting, I think you're doing okay. Unfortunately, you really cannot please everyone or be friends with everyone.

 

I'm sure you know all this already.

[veggirl]

So what about on the internet?

 

If a man saw a woman he liked and wanted to describe her, and does so by not just talking about her personality, but he talks about her body too, in a descriptive, flattering manner - is he not to mention her body? Or allowed to, for fear of upsetting women at the idea that he is describing this woman's body?

 

Bear in mind (in light of accusations of belittlement), I'm asking these questions genuinely and innocently, not to spark negative emotions.

 

 

(That I have to preface my posts in this manner now is embarrassing )

 

Who, it's when the men get SO descriptive about her body on here that is obnoxious. Why can't they just say "she is good looking" or "I thought she was really sexy" or something? Why does it have to be "her waist was so small, her booty was so fleshy and her boobs bounced as she walked" ? like do we need that visual? lol.

 

Here's an example that I ran into on LS when I put pics in my album for people to see. Some people told me basically "you are a pretty girl" (an innocuous compliment), and some people PMed me to tell me in much more crass terms that they think I'm hot and do I have a bf and someone even said that he always disagrees with my posts but will NOW "forgive me" for my opinions!

[utterer of lies]

I do? Since when? What men are these? I think you're confusing me with someone else...

 

Reread the PMs you've sent me

[ThaWholigan]

For the record, ThaWholigan, there is very little that you've posted in this thread or any other thread that has really offended me. Anything that has raised an eyebrow is probably due to generational and cultural differences, which are allowed on the internet and indeed in life, in general.

 

Back to your question - I don't know is the short, honest answer.

 

A longer answer is that you have to judge for yourself. If you know that you are on a site where the majority of women (and men) are going to be easily offended by your descriptions, then you'd tailor your posts accordingly. However, that would be the case for any site and any topic - you lurk first to get a feel for the culture, then you take into account your audience and you pick your battles.

 

There are always going to be a handful of people who might get offended. As long as you adhere to the site's policies for respectful posting, I think you're doing okay. Unfortunately, you really cannot please everyone or be friends with everyone.

 

I'm sure you know all this already.

 

Sure do. I have been OK. I've been descriptive before, but mainly in a clinical manner, or at the very least pointed to expression rather than crassness.

 

Who, it's when the men get SO descriptive about her body on here that is obnoxious. Why can't they just say "she is good looking" or "I thought she was really sexy" or something? Why does it have to be "her waist was so small, her booty was so fleshy and her boobs bounced as she walked" ? like do we need that visual? lol.

 

That's a shame . I do like to be very descriptive, not quite as crude as your example however. I understand though, I keep it to a minimum usually - I even draw attention to non-physical things, or the physical expression rather than the actual physique of a woman.

 

Here's an example that I ran into on LS when I put pics in my album for people to see. Some people told me basically "you are a pretty girl" (an innocuous compliment), and some people PMed me to tell me in much more crass terms that they think I'm hot and do I have a bf and someone even said that he always disagrees with my posts but will NOW "forgive me" for my opinions!

 

I didn't know that! That's a bit OTT...

[utterer of lies]

Here's an example that I ran into on LS when I put pics in my album for people to see. Some people told me basically "you are a pretty girl" (an innocuous compliment), and some people PMed me to tell me in much more crass terms that they think I'm hot and do I have a bf and someone even said that he always disagrees with my posts but will NOW "forgive me" for my opinions!

 

News at 11 - there are idiots on the internet.

 

Why are you surprised? Especially considering you made your pics public on a site filled with bitter, disappointed people like LS...

[veggirl]

News at 11 - there are idiots on the internet.

 

Why are you surprised? Especially considering you made your pics public on a site filled with bitter, disappointed people like LS...

 

True, but it's just an example of what some of us are talking about. The hilarious part is it's not even like I am soooo beautiful or something. I am normal pretty. Oh well, I guess.

[oaks]

Who, it's when the men get SO descriptive about her body on here that is obnoxious. Why can't they just say "she is good looking" or "I thought she was really sexy" or something? Why does it have to be "her waist was so small, her booty was so fleshy and her boobs bounced as she walked" ? like do we need that visual? lol.

 

I doubt you'll get much disagreement with those extremes - the former being fairly non-descriptive and anodyne and the second being quite a long list. The sorts of things I've heard men discussing are usually somewhere in between the two... being more descriptive and referencing perhaps one body part or location. We've already done "nice rack" to death, but "She's got a nice pair of legs" is something I hear from time to time in real conversations.

 

If guys stick to "She's really sexy" and "she's good looking" then, when this sort of conversation comes up in a bar, it would get repetitive very quickly. (What do they say about the 3rd girl?) It turns out that guys can be better communicators than that, hence more precise, detailed descriptions.

 

I think I now know better than to try and 'defend' such behaviour in this thread - I've already been called things that needed to have asterisks inserted in places where vowels should go (Not by you, veggirl, of course) and I wouldn't wish to be accused of dismissing or belittling your comments either - but I just put this out there to give an example of what sometimes happens.

 

I'm now going to hide under the bed... it should be safe there.

[utterer of lies]

True, but it's just an example of what some of us are talking about. The hilarious part is it's not even like I am soooo beautiful or something. I am normal pretty. Oh well, I guess.

 

It's a luxury problem.

 

The behavior from both females and males towards 'ugly' girls is much worse.

[AD1980]

Its not illegal to offend you or just be an ahole unfortunately..you cant police the world you just have to not pay attention to them

[ThaWholigan]

It's a luxury problem.

 

The behavior from both females and males towards 'ugly' girls is much worse.

A problem is still a problem.

 

I do think 'ugly' girls have a unique set of problems, as do 'ugly' men. We all have our own unique set of problems.

[verhrzn]

Reread the PMs you've sent me

 

I cleaned out my inbox, so you'll have to be more specific.

[utterer of lies]

I cleaned out my inbox, so you'll have to be more specific.

 

You said that you never get a date and I tried to console you and wrote that I'm sure there are some guys who are interested in you.

 

And then you made some comments that one might interpret as superficial.

 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong to have minimal requirements for the body as well as for the mind. But those people who always scream "superficial" (including you) attack others for stating that, despite the fact that it's the plain observable behaviour of mankind.

[joystickd]

I think the problem with men talking about women is the problem of women having trouble with male honesty. For example once I was talking to a woman and she asked me was I interested in a women we both knew I said not really. She asked why and I kept trying to word my response as nice as possible, but she kept probing for details. Eventually I just came out and said she was only good maybe to f**k and that is all. She was bothered by the response.

 

In general people want to know reason why. In some instances saying she is beautiful is cool but dealing with some women they want details. The thing is when you want details coming from a man they can be brutal and straight forward. I'm one I hate beating around the bush. I'd rather get straight to the point.

[verhrzn]

You said that you never get a date and I tried to console you and wrote that I'm sure there are some guys who are interested in you.

 

And then you made some comments that one might interpret as superficial.

 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong to have minimal requirements for the body as well as for the mind. But those people who always scream "superficial" (including you) attack others for stating that, despite the fact that it's the plain observable behaviour of mankind.

 

And what exactly were those comments? Was it one of those "Well you could find people who were interested in you, so long as you had absolutely no standards and would date someone who was out of shape* and unemployed with barely a high school education." Cause, yeah, I'd probably say no to that. So sue me as superficial if that be the measuring stick.

 

*Out of shape does not necessarily equal overweight. Plenty of skinny guys who are unhealthy, and overweight guys who exercise regularly.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

My response was to Janesays posts

 

Some people have no manners. That applies to both men and women. Don't hang out with people that have no manners, simple. I won't generalise and say men are like that just because of a few bad apples. Not all men are disrespectful even if they don't fancy a woman.

 

By the way, a lot of women choose to objectify themselves. Everyone has control over how much of their body they expose.

 

 

You gave the classic 30-minute sitcom advice Emilia. Unfortunetly, in real life, things raen't so black and white. Sometimes people you love say crappy things. Not because they are horrible people but because they are human and make mistakes. Sometimes people are simply crappy but you still have to associate with them due to connections to other people. Other times, people just offer their opinion of you even though you never asked. You don't even have to be their friend for them to feel like they can give it to you. So no, it's not just a matter of not "hanging out" with people with no manners. And no, it's not simple.

 

I never said all men where disrespectful or that some women don't choose to objectify themselves. Although I suspect a lot of women choose to objectify themselves because they grew up in a world that placed more value in their visual beauty then anything else about them.

[joystickd]

You gave the classic 30-minute sitcom advice Emilia. Unfortunetly, in real life, things raen't so black and white. Sometimes people you love say crappy things. Not because they are horrible people but because they are human and make mistakes. Sometimes people are simply crappy but you still have to associate with them due to connections to other people. Other times, people just offer their opinion of you even though you never asked. You don't even have to be their friend for them to feel like they can give it to you. So no, it's not just a matter of not "hanging out" with people with no manners. And no, it's not simple.

 

I never said all men where disrespectful or that some women don't choose to objectify themselves. Although I suspect a lot of women choose to objectify themselves because they grew up in a world that placed more value in their visual beauty then anything else about them.

and some just like the attention and its not about how they grew up. Yes it is that simple

[Disenchantedly Yours]

To women like verhrzn and DY I am an *******. I guess because I am unapologetically male. I am just not willing to be ashamed of my desires or feel guilt because of what I do. Like some of the "bitter" buys sh*t on me because I don't feel bad about banging married women. I say at least I'm getting my dick wet and getting a nut. Women only feel uncomfortable if its someone they are not attracted in. For example my name Joystick came because I showed a coworker while I worked at wal mart a picture of my penis. I lost my virginity to her which lead to a crazy set of events that still have an effect on how I see women, but that is another story. Now if she was not interested she would have wasted no time in saying I harassed her. That is the thing about talking about women in that way. On some level they want that type of thing but with someone they are interested in. Men would be surprised the things they could do once a woman has an initial interest in them that would be unwanted if they were not interesting. That the thing for me. If these women saw a man across the room for example and he approached them and got to them emotionally this whole how men talk about women would be forgotten. They wouldn't give a damn about him not caring about their other attributes.

 

 

I just vomited a little in my mouth. You are not “unapologetically male”. Although I have no doubt you enjoy seeing yourself that way. What you are actually “unapologetic” about has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with self entitlement. A self entitlement you, and something I have seen in other men, believe is your right to talk about women anyway you please simply because women make you horny.

 

Talking about the other gender differently also has nothing to do with being male. Showing respect to people has nothing to do with specifically being male or being “unapologetic” about it. Listening to women and what they take issue with when they get discussed by guys has nothing to do with trying to take away your masculinity. So you need stop with the “I am male, hear me roar, I’m so cool in my anti-PCness” bull crap, nonsense, horse poo, rat vomit, racoon squawking ways.

 

The fact that you are attracted to women, the fact that you may be attracted to certain women has nothing to do what we are discussing here. What is being discussed here is how men choose to talk about women either with women or with men. I don’t understand why some guys thing they deserve a free pass to talk about women any way that pleases them simply under the justification that women make you horny.

 

No one is asking you to apologize for being male anymore then men are asking women to apologize for being women when a man talks about things that women do that he feels are disrespectful to him. So get off the the “I don’t apologize for my boner” choo choo train.

 

Further, no one asked you to be ashamed of your desires or feel guilty for them. All that a few women here are doing is asking men to be aware of how they choose to talk about women and what they choose to focus on.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

No one wants to be treated as an object. I do online dating, and I understand that (besides a good first email), my education level, "what I do" (i.e., solid income), and even what I look like is what will get me the date. But I want to be seen as more than that, and most any other guy who actually has experience would say the same thing. If a woman approached me from say online and said that she was looking for an educated man with a good income and that from my profile I qualify, I would not write her back. Even if I was attracted to her. I'd feel too much like an object. This would hold if you replaced the adjectives "educated" and "with a good income" with "handsome" or "with a great body".

 

So yes, as men we want to think of ourselves as winners on the one hand. We take pride in "what we do" and even what we can afford. But on the other hand, we fantasize on some level about a woman who would still be into us even if we lost our jobs and our money, because she is into us because of us. We don't want to be thought of as an ATM, at least, those of us with any self-respect.

 

I think something similar is true for women. They know beauty is the milkshake that brings the boys into the yard, and they want to think of themselves as beautiful. But women don't want to be liked only for their looks because that makes them feel objectified. And they fantasize on some level for a man who will stick by them even if/when their looks go.

 

Nail. On. Head.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I wonder what would happen if men simply stopped talking about women's physical beauty altogether......

 

Wholigan, you started this thread not because of a simple matter of men sincerely appreciating women's physical beauty but because it was from a thread where a poster was systematically dissecting a woman's features and judging if they were good enough for him. It's when women get talked about as a collection of body parts where a sincere appreciation of a woman's beauty is lost.

 

Women LOVE when men are sincere about his appreciation of her beauty. But very often men aren't sincere for the right reasons about appreciating a woman's beauty. They are mainly thinking about what *he* can get out of her beauty. Not about something really beautiful or sincere toward her.