Men talking about women

[Mme. Chaucer]

It's just a slippery slope of demanding someone grow a thicker skin so someone else can continue their bad behavior. Again, why should women HAVE to ignore/confront men when they make those comments? Why is it on women's shoulders to police someone else's behavior? (And ignoring it is, in a way, policing it; in essence, when you ignore something, you signal that there are no consequences to continuing that behavior.) Why shouldn't men themselves be responsible for THEIR behavior??

 

Men should be responsible for their own behavior, and people who internalize comments that other people make and allow those to influence their sense of selves and their whole lives need to be responsible for doing something about that FIRST, before expecting society to transform. Or accepting it.

 

I don't think its fine for men to comment on women as if women are "things." But if I let those guys get under my skin, I would consider myself to be the biggest jerk in the situation.

 

Peoples' consciousnesses ARE raising. Lots of men think it's rude, childish, crude, etc. when other men do that. I don't think a single one of them got their consciousnesses raised by being shamed into it.

 

I have to say that I find all of this hard to take seriously from you, v, considering that the majority of your many posts have to do with what you LOOK like, and talking at length about changing every aspect of yourself to try to attract men. Aren't you objectifying YOURSELF?

Edited September 24, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[verhrzn]

Men should be responsible for their own behavior, and people who internalize comments that other people make and allow those to influence their sense of selves and their whole lives need to be responsible for doing something about that FIRST, before expecting society to transform. Or accepting it.

 

I don't think its fine for men to comment on women as if women are "things." But if I let those guys get under my skin, I would consider myself to be the biggest jerk in the situation.

 

Peoples' consciousnesses ARE raising. Lots of men think it's rude, childish, crude, etc. when other men do that. I don't think a single one of them got their consciousnesses raised by being shamed into it.

 

I have to say that I find all of this hard to take seriously from you, v, considering that the majority of your many posts have to do with what you LOOK like, and talking at length about changing every aspect of yourself to try to attract men. Aren't you objectifying YOURSELF?

 

But sometimes it has nothing to do with internalizing comments. Right now, you are making the situation specific to me, because that's my "hang-up".... but you read Veggirl's and Janesays' posts. They aren't internalizing the comments, so much as feeling unsafe by them. So, feeling unsafe when someone threatens you makes you a jerk??

 

I really wish you guys would stop making this about an individual, in this case me. I have not been speaking about this as ME. I have been speaking about this as someone who studies culture and gender, as a "feminist" if you want to use that dreaded word.

 

Furthermore, you all seem to miss the point I make OVER and OVER that objectifying in and of itself, if done with someone's permission (or inside your own head) is not bad. It's when those opinions are voiced, out loud, without consent, that I start taking issue. So me objectifying myself isn't really a problem (or the point) because I am doing it to myself. I have the right to do whatever the heck I want with myself and my body.... To make a gory analogue, I have every right to stab myself in the neck if I so choose. But someone else does NOT have the same right to stab me in the neck, because my body is not their body.

 

SOME people's consciousness' are raising. That is not the point. This thread demonstrates that there are still plenty of people who believe they have a right to make comments about a stranger's body. In what twisted world is the victim responsible for that?? So, because they feel harassed, they somehow deserve it? They don't get to speak out about it until it no longer effects them?? What??

[oaks]

This thread demonstrates that there are still plenty of people who believe they have a right to make comments about a stranger's body.

 

Yup. I do have that right. Sometimes I'll temper or withhold my use of it, perhaps because I'm aware that it may be inappropriate (perhaps based on my audience, perhaps based on what I was considering saying) and sometimes people will get offended or upset by words that I say. Sometimes I'll regret what I say after I've said it, and sometimes I won't. Sorry about that.

[Emilia]

I am a black belt. I have been doing self-defense for years. It still didn't stop me from being assaulted in Japan. I have drilled techniques over and over again. I am actually TRAINED, and I still froze up. You can't account for shock, for the natural reaction of your body to freeze, to panic. Anyone who has actually been trained, and been in a fight, will tell you that sometimes, your training doesn't mean squat, because you reaction in a "fight or flight" response. Claiming that women can avoid being assaulted if they just "fought back" to beyond absurd. It completely ignores psyology.

 

More importantly, it ignores the natural reaction to not fight back, in fear that if you fight, it will make things worse. A lot of rape victims DON'T fight their attacker, because they fear that fighting back means he will escalate his violence. If they just lie there and take it, make he will let them live. If they fight back, maybe he will snap their neck.

 

sorry to thread jack but some serious piece of advice: if you want to learn self defense, you shouldn't train for black belts or any of that nonsense but take professional advice from people that teach about street fights and attackers' behaviour. Martials arts mean diddly squat in a real fight.

 

sorry, back to the thread.

[Emilia]

Ah, well, as long as we've cleared up that you guys are arguing for your rights to be objectifying a**holes. Fantastic.

 

Not just guys. I objectify male strangers' body all the time, couldn't care less what he thought if he overheard me.

 

You need to get less exhausting V. Get what you are saying but all this hammering is too much.

[oaks]

Ah, well, as long as we've cleared up that you guys are arguing for your rights to be objectifying a**holes. Fantastic.

 

Is this a step up from being "f*ckers" and "bullies", or a step down?

 

I wonder if you see the irony in resorting to ad hominem attacks in a discussion about objectifying the body.

[Lonely Ronin]

Just because bad things happen does not mean we should ALLOW them to happen. Just because bad things happen does not mean we shouldn't try to change them.

 

 

Has anyone ever told you your reading comprehension skills really really really suck?

[verhrzn]

Not just guys. I objectify male strangers' body all the time, couldn't care less what he thought if he overheard me.

 

You need to get less exhausting V. Get what you are saying but all this hammering is too much.

 

Well bully for you. Glad to hear you don't care if you hurt some stranger's feelings and are perpetuating a culture that trivializes using someone else's body for our own selfish gratification without their consent.

 

And yes, how dare I care about things, and argue for them, and be offended when someone suggests rape is akin to getting your wallet stolen. God, it's just so exhausting when victims won't just shut up and take it, isn't it?

[verhrzn]

Is this a step up from being "f*ckers" and "bullies", or a step down?

 

I wonder if you see the irony in resorting to ad hominem attacks in a discussion about objectifying the body.

 

You say "I get the right to objectify women."

 

I say," That hurts women's feelings and contributes to a culture that trivializes sexual assault and men get to control women's bodies and how they feel."

 

You say," Oh well, my right to do so."

 

And it's an ad hominen attack to call you an a**hole? Is it an ad hominen attack to say if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck?

[verhrzn]

Has anyone ever told you your reading comprehension skills really really really suck?

 

Likewise, considering I have said over and OVER in this thread that guys are free to objectify women with their consent, that I don't care in the least in guys objectify women in their minds, and that the issue is NOT changing or "shaming" male sexuality but expecting people to control themselves for the sake of decency.

 

And yet you directly say I'm trying to "mentally" wipe men's minds, that people need to objectify to find a mate they like (they need to do it out loud? without someone's consent? before even getting the person's name?) and that I'm trying to control people.

 

So, projection!

[verhrzn]

What is rape culture: Frequently Asked Questions | STFU, Rape Culture!

 

MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT RAPE CULTURE

 

Proponents of rape culture consider all men to be potential rapists.

 

People who deny the existence of rape culture often equate our call for better rape education (‘teaching men not to rape’) with a misandric view that all cisgender men are rapists in training. This is not the case. There are several reasons to include men in rape education:

 

While only a small percentage of men overall actually commit rape, the vast majority of rapists are men. It’s a poor prevention strategy not to intervene on the people most often committing the crime.

Rape is an all too frequent crime and we cannot hope to adequately combat it when we don’t bother to talk to half the population about it at all.

Men can be and are raped. When no one talks to men about rape, it perpetuates the idea that cisgender men cannot be raped and makes it more difficult for survivors to report their rapes and/or access resources for survivors.

Beyond that, we respect men. We recognize that they have the capability and the desire to be advocates against sexual violence. Educating them about sexual assault empowers men to stand against culturally accepted degradation of women and the normalization of sexual violence.

 

Acceptance of rape culture perpetuates a “victim mentality” among women

 

We recognize the ways in which our society promotes and accepts the devaluation of women and romanticizes and/or ignores violence against us. I think we’re all familiar with the phrase, ‘the first step is admitting you have a problem.’ Admitting that these problems exist within our culture is not the same thing as accepting them as unchangeable. Rather, we cannot hope to fight back and make real changes in the way women are viewed and treated unless we first expose the problems that exist within our current system. Burying your head in the sand and pretending rape culture doesn’t exist will not help prevent or eliminate rape.

[Emilia]

Well bully for you. Glad to hear you don't care if you hurt some stranger's feelings and are perpetuating a culture that trivializes using someone else's body for our own selfish gratification without their consent.

 

The thing is - and this might be news to you - a lot of people (men AND women) don't mind being objectified, many of them even ENJOY IT AND EXPECT IT! Would you believe that!

 

'Without their consent....' People shouldn't think thoughts and and shouldn't say things about me without my consent?

 

And yes, how dare I care about things, and argue for them, and be offended when someone suggests rape is akin to getting your wallet stolen. God, it's just so exhausting when victims won't just shut up and take it, isn't it?

 

LR wasn't comparing rape to wallet being stollen, you are misinterpreting what he was saying on purpose. He is a level headed poster.

 

You seriously need to get laid more often V

[Els]

Wait.... wasn't this thread about men talking about women?

[oaks]

And it's an ad hominen attack to call you an a**hole?

 

When it's a direct personal attack used to dismiss my argument, how could it be anything else?

 

(If you need to look it up you'll find that it's usually spelled "ad hominem". I have trouble with this myself, since it's not in my spell chucker on account of not being English.)

 

Is it an ad hominen attack to say if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck?

 

Another irrelevance, but it's hardly the way we do things around here... so I'll ask you to kindly lay off the personal attacks, please, even though we clearly disagree strongly about some of the points being debated.

 

The point I was making was that I'm asserting that I do have the right to make comments about a stranger's body. I understand that you disagree, or at least disapprove of this, but calling names isn't really the way to further the debate or your point in any meaningful way.

[verhrzn]

The thing is - and this might be news to you - a lot of people (men AND women) don't mind being objectified, many of them even ENJOY IT AND EXPECT IT! Would you believe that!

 

'Without their consent....' People shouldn't think thoughts and and shouldn't say things about me without my consent?

 

Do you guys not see me saying OVER and OVER that people can think whatever freaking thoughts they want? And if you're talking with a stranger, and they are open to it/consent, go nuts objectifying them?

 

Yes, SOME people like it. But SOME people don't. So maybe, just maybe, try to ASSESS if someone likes it BEFORE doing it. Ya know, keep your opinions to yourself until asked? That whole "being polite" stitck?

 

Just so difficult, I know, to actually not voice your opinion about a stranger's body before actually knowing your advances are welcome. What a hard life it must be, being considerate of others!

 

 

LR wasn't comparing rape to wallet being stollen, you are misinterpreting what he was saying on purpose. He is a level headed poster.

 

He said "Bad things happen, like getting your wallet stolen!" How is that not comparing it to rape?? Since the bad thing I was talking about was sexual assault? How is that not comparing the two?

[Lonely Ronin]

Likewise, considering I have said over and OVER in this thread that guys are free to objectify women with their consent, that I don't care in the least in guys objectify women in their minds, and that the issue is NOT changing or "shaming" male sexuality but expecting people to control themselves for the sake of decency.

 

And yet you directly say I'm trying to "mentally" wipe men's minds, that people need to objectify to find a mate they like (they need to do it out loud? without someone's consent? before even getting the person's name?) and that I'm trying to control people.

 

So, projection!

 

And again this where your comprehension skills are lacking. Hell I asked a question, and you construed that into a definitive statement. Personally I believe in keeping your mouth shut, and most people do. I don't even think most people have the ability to dehumanize another person to the level you seem to think a lot of men do.

 

Secondly make up your mind what you are arguing about, are we talking about rape, or objectification? you comment on one and then when someone responds you use the other to try and degrade their argument.

[verhrzn]

And again this where your comprehension skills are lacking. Hell I asked a question, and you construed that into a definitive statement. Personally I believe in keeping your mouth shut, and most people do. I don't even think most people have the ability to dehumanize another person to the level you seem to think a lot of men do.

 

Secondly make up your mind what you are arguing about, are we talking about rape, or objectification? you comment on one and then when someone responds you use the other to try and degrade their argument.

 

We are talking about BOTH, because one leads into the other. Look at the link I posted.... men rape women (and other men) because they objectify them. Because they don't see them as people. They see them as objects, to be used, for selfish gratification.

 

Here, I'll post it again: Frequently Asked Questions | STFU, Rape Culture!

 

MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT RAPE CULTURE

 

Proponents of rape culture consider all men to be potential rapists.

 

People who deny the existence of rape culture often equate our call for better rape education (‘teaching men not to rape’) with a misandric view that all cisgender men are rapists in training. This is not the case. There are several reasons to include men in rape education:

 

While only a small percentage of men overall actually commit rape, the vast majority of rapists are men. It’s a poor prevention strategy not to intervene on the people most often committing the crime.

Rape is an all too frequent crime and we cannot hope to adequately combat it when we don’t bother to talk to half the population about it at all.

Men can be and are raped. When no one talks to men about rape, it perpetuates the idea that cisgender men cannot be raped and makes it more difficult for survivors to report their rapes and/or access resources for survivors.

Beyond that, we respect men. We recognize that they have the capability and the desire to be advocates against sexual violence. Educating them about sexual assault empowers men to stand against culturally accepted degradation of women and the normalization of sexual violence.

 

Acceptance of rape culture perpetuates a “victim mentality” among women

 

We recognize the ways in which our society promotes and accepts the devaluation of women and romanticizes and/or ignores violence against us. I think we’re all familiar with the phrase, ‘the first step is admitting you have a problem.’ Admitting that these problems exist within our culture is not the same thing as accepting them as unchangeable. Rather, we cannot hope to fight back and make real changes in the way women are viewed and treated unless we first expose the problems that exist within our current system. Burying your head in the sand and pretending rape culture doesn’t exist will not help prevent or eliminate rape.

[Emilia]

Why are you arguing for the right to hurt someone else?? Wy are you arguing for the right to publicly air whatever thoughts float across your brain??

 

If everyone got as personal on this thread as you are, you would run away crying and not come back for a month.

[joystickd]

When did this transition from men talking about women to men raping?

[Emilia]

Bring it on.

 

No thanks. Your shouting and screaming doesn't make your points any more valid and the original post has been blown out of proportion.

[Emilia]

When did this transition from men talking about women to men raping?

 

Some people here apparently think one leads to the other more frequently than the rest of us think

[verhrzn]

Some people here apparently think one leads to the other more frequently than the rest of us think

 

Maybe you should read any of the links I posted. They state the case more eloquently than I do, because I'm upset.

[Els]

We are talking about BOTH, because one leads into the other. Look at the link I posted.... men rape women (and other men) because they objectify them. Because they don't see them as people. They see them as objects, to be used, for selfish gratification.

 

Here, I'll post it again: Frequently Asked Questions | STFU, Rape Culture!

 

V, I understand that you are passionate about reforming a culture that encourages trivialization of rape and blame of victims, because, you're right, it's not a thing to be trifled with and the victims are most certainly not to blame. But if you want to link rape to 'talking and thinking about other people's bodies' with complete causation, you would need much, much better sources than 'stfurapeculture', which I'd think would be innately biased.

 

Causes of sexual violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has a good compilation of reports and studies about potential causes and factors that predispose someone to committing sexual violence. The long and short about it is, there isn't simple causation. It really isn't as straightforward as a rapist only being 'someone who objectifies others'. That could be one of the many factors, yes, but that is like saying that 'eating' could cause cancer. The people who are the most obnoxious about other people's bodies are most often not rapists, and rapists are not always obnoxious about other people's bodies. The psyche of a rapist goes way deeper and more convoluted than that, in many cases.

[ThaWholigan]

I'm sorry, I find it a little strange that me talking about a woman's body leads to raping them - as if most men do not have the cognitive function to apply restraint to varying degrees. Are you suggesting that the men in this thread are potential objectifying rapists? Are you also suggesting because we like women's bodies, we don't see them as people?

 

I think that some of the things you have said in this thread have been more offensive than any comment I've ever made about a woman, or indeed the comment about the "rack" that started this thread.

 

Also - given that we are not talking about outright offending women, but talking about her body at least in an appropriate manner or an attempt to do so - is it really warranting being called "bullies" and objectifying "a**holes"?

[Emilia]

Maybe because people kept arguing and arguing with me. I already said that people have the right to their thoughts, and the right to share those thoughts with people who consent. But apparently that isn't good enough.... apparently it's too much to ask for people to control their speech and behavior in public.

 

They argue with you because you are wrong and offensive. Elswyth's last comment is a very good one actually, I 100% agree with her.