Consolidated discussion - The Friend Zone

[Emilia]

Then I also decided to just focus all my energy on getting a GF, and that there isn't any need for guy friends.

 

[....]

 

I really have no idea. I don't know anybody in my age range.

 

 

First off all, I have no idea where to even meet a single 30 year old woman. I know where to meet girls 18-23.

 

The answer to your last question is yes. I simply have much more in common and a similar lifestyle to that of a 21 year old than to somebody who is 25+.

 

You need circles of friends and acquaintances to build social capital. Having social capital is what helps you continuously achieve goals in your life such as meeting enough members of the opposite sex to be able to date and to develop your social skills to the level that is expected of your age and supposed maturity.

 

Since you don't have this sort of support and background, you are surrounded by young and immature people where the gap between you and them is continuously growing. You think you have something common with a 21 year-old but you don't really (partly because many of them have their own social circle and don't need to hang out with you, who is an oldie) and this gap is widening.

 

You would be best off if you made friends of your own age and social standing.

[Teknoe]

Your fixation with getting a GF does not allow you to have female friends at this time. That is why people often tell you to first build a social circle with male friends, ftr. You essentially cut out the first part of fish's advice -- to make and keep male friends first and THEN make and keep female friends and only THEN be ready for romantic relationships. You immediately shortened the chain in your mind -- you often do this, skip steps, avoid anything you feel might "delay" you from getting a R, but doing so and fixating on that R has delayed you consistently.

 

+100

 

In life, you can rarely skip steps and be "successful." You can't be lazy or cut corners. Again, you always reap what you sow.

 

 

You need circles of friends and acquaintances to build social capital. Having social capital is what helps you continuously achieve goals in your life such as meeting enough members of the opposite sex to be able to date and to develop your social skills to the level that is expected of your age and supposed maturity.

 

Since you don't have this sort of support and background, you are surrounded by young and immature people where the gap between you and them is continuously growing. You think you have something common with a 21 year-old but you don't really (partly because many of them have their own social circle and don't need to hang out with you, who is an oldie) and this gap is widening.

 

You would be best off if you made friends of your own age and social standing.

 

Emilia, you hit the nail on the head. "Social capital" is a great way of putting it! I honestly am baffled by SD's constant denial of how he doesn't need guy friends. To be quite frank, it's kind of obvious to me that he has intimacy issues. Which is ironic given the fact he claims he wants to be intimate with a girl. I don't think he really can because he's too quick to cut off conversations and whenever any sort of conflict arises, he likes to avoid it.

 

As long as people pat him on the back and say "everything's gonna be OK, just stay the course" or "SD's not really that bad. I think he's just a victim of the system" he is happy.

 

Unfortunately, that's not reality. There are some real, clear cut issues with him that he needs to FIRST address before the girlfriend part ever comes.

 

But he constantly skip steps. And that's why he's never had a girlfriend.

 

 

Since you don't have this sort of support and background, you are surrounded by young and immature people where the gap between you and them is continuously growing. You think you have something common with a 21 year-old but you don't really (partly because many of them have their own social circle and don't need to hang out with you, who is an oldie) and this gap is widening.

 

You would be best off if you made friends of your own age and social standing.

 

I simply have much more in common and a similar lifestyle to that of a 21 year old than to somebody who is 25+.

 

I wanted to quote this part specifically, as I wanted to tell SD about this in post #65 of this thread, but decided not to. You pretty much said it though, Emilia.

 

Three facts here:

 

1. Yes, SD relates more to 21 year old girls than he does 25+ year old females. SD's life experiences and mindset is more akin to that of a late teens/early 20s adolescence

 

2. SD is not really growing or maturing like he should. I've read his posts and "life stories" for nearly 2 years now, and it seems nothing has changed. Other posters know him since 2008 and say he's not changed much. A lack of social circle hurts his growth

 

3. Here's the big one, and the reality he has to soon face before it's too late. The longer he delays "growing up" (for a lack of a better term), the harder it will get for him to relate to 21 year olds. The reason why is what Emilia stated, 21 year olds already have their own social circle of similarly-aged friends, and it starts getting harder and harder to befriend someone nearly 10 years your senior who DOESN'T offer significantly cooler life experience (again, for a lack of a better term). The older SD gets, the harder it will become. In 2 years he'll be 32. If he maintains this same lifestyle and ways of thinking, he will still relate closer to 21 year olds, but now there's an 11 year gap, and that's just too odd. He needs to start learning how to relate to his peers (i.e. people within 3-4 years difference). If he doesn't, I'm afraid one day he'll be 35, have the same (lack of) social skills as he does now, and it will be impossible for him to even befriend 21 year old girls, because that would be straight up creepy from their shoes.

 

The older you get, and the longer you delay addressing your real issues SD, the wider that chasm becomes and the more difficult it gets for you. Please, don't wait for things to get worse. What's the solution? I'm not going to tell you what everyone's already told you 1,000 times before. Again, you make your choices, and you live and die by them.

 

What are you going to do?

[Imajerk17]

It astounds me how all of you keep writing him novels when in the end, he hardly does anything. Dumb. I think it says more about you and your issues than him. Somedude81 doesn't really want to change. Either that he is overwhelmed by all the information he is getting. But your novel-writing is still pointless.

 

I don't care what kind of guy SD is. He basically has no way to meet women. He isn't cold-approaching, isn't doing online dating, and he has no hobbies to speak of (far as we know anyway). So he is left with the occasional girl who works with him. That comes to what, one or two random girls a year? Who wouldn't be celibate with that lifestyle?

 

So my advice to him is to set up an OLD account. He'll be in contact with women who want to date, and some who even want to hook up. Something simple he can get started on today.

[Imajerk17]

Let’s Talk About Why the ‘Friend Zone’ is Bull**** | STUFF YOU WILL HATE

 

Enclosed is a lovely, humorous blog post from one of my favorite blogs about why the friend zone is BS and how grown men who get themselves caught in those situations need to pull their heads out of a certain cavernous orifice. I, for one, think it's spot on.

 

Thoughts?

 

Anyway TBQ, thanks for posting this. Great thread!

[Million.to.1]

Great article.

 

I had a feeling this thread would be a long SomeDude therapy session. ***audible groan.

[somedude81]

I don't care what kind of guy SD is. He basically has no way to meet women. He isn't cold-approaching, isn't doing online dating, and he has no hobbies to speak of (far as we know anyway). So he is left with the occasional girl who works with him. That comes to what, one or two random girls a year? Who wouldn't be celibate with that lifestyle?

I go to a university that has 30,000 female students. I meet girls all the time that I would like to date.

 

The only problem I'm having is that I can't get the girls I meet to like me as more than a friend. And that's because my approach with women is wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with how many friends I have.

 

And before anybody says otherwise, getting women to want me sexually is a very different skill-set from getting a woman to want to be my friend.

[TheBigQuestion]

I go to a university that has 30,000 female students. I meet girls all the time that I would like to date.

 

The only problem I'm having is that I can't get the girls I meet to like me as more than a friend. And that's because my approach with women is wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with how many friends I have.

 

And before anybody says otherwise, getting women to want me sexually is a very different skill-set from getting a woman to want to be my friend.

 

What are your reactions to the blog post I linked in the OP?

[somedude81]

What are your reactions to the blog post I linked in the OP?

Pretty much, don't be friends with chicks who reject you.

 

If you somehow want a relationship with a friend, try something, if it doesn't work, disappear.

 

 

I tried the forcing a relationship thing, and it obviously didn't work.

Edited May 15, 2012 by somedude81

[fishtaco]

It astounds me how all of you keep writing him novels when in the end, he hardly does anything. Dumb. I think it says more about you and your issues than him. Somedude81 doesn't really want to change. Either that he is overwhelmed by all the information he is getting. But your novel-writing is still pointless.

 

Pretty much this.

 

I think you guys are too nice, and very eager to help. I think it's a good thing, but it is still pointless... SD clearly does not want help. The same advice has been given to him in different forms, by different people. We see gender wars erupt on LS all the time, due to understandably polarized opinions that comes from that whole Venus/Mars thing. But this is one of the few instances where men AND women are actually agreeing, and telling him the same thing. Yet he rejects them all anyway.

 

Hence he is now on my ignore list. I'm wondering if he's the ultimate LS troll. And we we all got sucked into it. I can't imagine anyone like that for real.

[Cracker Jack]

I honestly don't think SD is a troll or anything like that. I just think he's someone who's too stuck in his ways, which means he'll likely be more reluctant to do different things. He actually asked a girl out rather quickly, which was a cool change.

 

Unfortunately he seems to not be open to many of the nice suggestions given. You can't keep doing the same things expecting different results. I'm sure he knows this by now. Whether he's going to actually take steps to do something about his approach instead of always stating (I want to get women wet, get a girlfriend etc) it is another story entirely.

[somedude81]

So far the only "suggestions" I'm getting are to make friends.

 

I've stated many times that I can't see the connection between making friends and getting a girlfriend. So what do people do? They yell even louder for me to make friends. Then they get mad and pissy at me when I don't bend over and tell them that they are right.

 

What feels most insulting is that I know getting friends is not going to make girls attracted to me when my approach to a girl is still completely wrong. Without having any friends I should be able to:

 

Meet a girl

Flirt with her

Ask her out

Get a date

 

How are friends even relevant?

[Cracker Jack]

When you have friends (both women and men), you have significantly better opportunities to meet more people--especially women. It also makes your social life that much better. I'm honestly not so sure why you're against something this good. Having friends opens up so many different doors in life, but you don't have to believe it.

 

Also, yeah, you should be able to do the 4 things mentioned, but how often are you doing those? Are there many opportunities for you to actually put yourself out there, without considering cold approaches?

[somedude81]

When you have friends (both women and men), you have significantly better opportunities to meet more people--especially women. It also makes your social life that much better.

Both of those are only connected to meeting women. And I'm not going to argue that it's not beneficial.

I'm honestly not so sure why you're against something this good. Having friends opens up so many different doors in life, but you don't have to believe it.

I don't have anything against making friends. But I know that having friends is not the key to getting women which everybody is trying to convince me otherwise. It's 100% possible for a man to have several friends, and still do horrible with women. Men like that are all over this forum, and I've been there myself.

 

I'd wish people would stop harping about friends and start talking about the other things that matter as well.

 

Also, yeah, you should be able to do the 4 things mentioned, but how often are you doing those? Are there many opportunities for you to actually put yourself out there, without considering cold approaches?

There are lots of opportunities.

 

These past months I simply haven't flirted with and asked out as many girls as I should have. I've only asked out two girls so far this year and that's low even for me.

[BeyondtheClouds]

What I learned the hard way about the "friend-zone" is not so much pining after a girl and being like her brother or whatever... it was something a bit different.

 

The chick you REALLY have to watch out for, is the one that flirts with you a LOT and drops little hints that there could be something more if you made a move.. then when you make one BAM she hits you with the "but we're just friends" line.

The process repeats and you're lured back in.. until you figure out her BS and finally call her on it.

 

It's not just men who "put themselves" into this situation. There are constantly cases where women abuse their attractiveness to a man to lead them on because they LIKE the attention, and the guy friend who really wants something more is kept strung along so she's not alone or feeling undesirable.

 

I think THIS is truly why men hate the friend-zone. I think this is WHY if she's not going to ever step up, he should just bail COMPLETELY and not take this BS offer of "friendship", when it's really just a crutch for her self esteem.

 

It's well known that since birth women learn the artful craft of manipulating men... so I don't buy that it's ALL the guy's fault. BUT if us guys are more informed and know what to look out for, we can nip that BS right in the bud and carry on with some dignity.

 

I am very intrigued with this type of woman and the men who fall for this. My bf and I had a rocky beginning because he was trying to dress up someone he used to date as just a friend. what I learned by piecing a few things together is that he had tried to date her and after a few weeks, went in for the proverbial kiss and she rejected him. HE showed me the text messages between them. What a fighter she was. she accused him leading her on. Then admitted that she had been on some dates with another guy but she could drop him for my (now) bf so that she won't lead him on. then she accused me of leading my bf on and that he should drop me.

 

Oh dear. he was wise never to introduce us and I told him he needed to stop all contact with her. which he did. But I still can't understand why he would even want to be friends with her.

[Imajerk17]

I go to a university that has 30,000 female students. I meet girls all the time that I would like to date.

 

The only problem I'm having is that I can't get the girls I meet to like me as more than a friend. And that's because my approach with women is wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with how many friends I have.

 

And before anybody says otherwise, getting women to want me sexually is a very different skill-set from getting a woman to want to be my friend.

 

How many of those 30,000 have you actually flirted with and hit on? Until you're doing things like hitting on three girls a day you need to suck it up and stop whining.

 

I live in a town that doesn't have 30,000 women (as in 30,000 women period, nevermind 30,000 women who are single and age-appropriate for me) and I hit on 5--10 a week easy.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Imajerk17

[somedude81]

How many of those 30,000 have you actually flirted with and hit on? Until you're doing things like hitting on three girls a day you need to suck it up and stop whining.

 

I live in a town that doesn't have 30,000 women (as in 30,000 women period, nevermind 30,000 women who are single and age-appropriate for me) and I hit on 5--10 a week easy.

Do you really think that the only thing to do is keep trying over and over?

[Imajerk17]

Do you really think that the only thing to do is keep trying over and over?

 

Well it's a start. So to answer your question, yes. Three a day, every day.

[Teknoe]

But I know that having friends is not the key to getting women which everybody is trying to convince me otherwise.

 

I think people aren't shouting from the rooftops "Make friends! And as a result, get a girlfriend someday!" SO MUCH AS we're trying to tell you "Make friends; it'd be healthy for you."

 

Steering you toward better health mentally, emotionally and spiritually is not a bad thing. It's a good thing.

 

The issue is you're looking at making friends from the posture of "Will this help me get a girlfriend or not?" Why not try approaching making friends from this posture instead "What could it hurt? Why the hell not? Hey, I might even learn a thing or two about caring for others, taking risks in life, etc."

 

Everything about your approach is GF GF GF. No wonder you find no real joy in life. This is self-sabotage at its best (worst?)

 

It's 100% possible for a man to have several friends, and still do horrible with women. Men like that are all over this forum, and I've been there myself.

 

Well of course. Again, there are no guarantees. But healthy people need (healthy) friends. You could use a strong support group in your life.

 

It's also 100% impossible for an average looking (at best) man with no friends, lack of social skills, major confidence issues and no passions in life other than getting a GF, to actually get a GF. Seriously. I've yet to meet one. And if I ever did, odds are, the girl isn't any sort of catch at all.

 

Having friends > having no friends. You even know and admit this. Yet you still don't care about making friends when you know it can only benefit you. The answer is simple: fear is blocking you. Stepping out of the boat is too scary. You rather stay in your little comfort zone and not rock the boat.

 

No girl will ever be attracted to that, I'm sorry to say.

 

 

I'd wish people would stop harping about friends and start talking about the other things that matter as well.

 

AS WELL. You just admitted friends is important. The reason why people are harping on it is because it's a fundamental step, and a good first step for you. Making friends is like running a mile. Getting a girlfriend is like running a 13 mile marathon.

 

You're trying to go for something over your head. But first you need to learn about showing empathy, being compassionate, being selfless and learning the ins and outs of mature, adult reciprocity.

 

Will making and maintaining friends guarantee you a GF?

 

Heck no.

 

But will making and maintaining (healthy) friends help you to become a better person overall, girlfriend or not? Yes.

 

So what is it, fear of failure, fear of change... fear of being vulnerable to a real life person? I dunno what's going on in your head, since you know making friends is NOT A BAD THING, but yet you still refuse to do it. Sounds like you have some social issues... which explains the social miscues you have had with D. Your inability to maintain a mature friendship relationship suggests you won't be able to start a dating relationship anytime soon, or even ever, if you keep your current lifestyle going.

 

Gotta take it one step at a time.

 

THAT'S WHY we harp on friends. It's an important FIRST step for someone in your situation.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Teknoe

[Mrlonelyone]

This is so simple.

 

The problem is that these "friendzoned" guys and girls are not in genuine friendships.

 

It's more like the woman knows the man is attracted to her and will use him for favors; the man thinks by doing favors he will get sex. Both parties to such an arrangement get what they deserve.

 

Genuinely being friends can and has organically lead to sexual and romantic relationships. It's just a matter of seeing that person as a romantic prospect.

 

Remember the difference and don't get confused:

Friendzone = A man who wants to use a woman for sex being used by a woman to fullfill her non sexual needs. Both parties are users and no sex will happen.

 

Friendship = A mutually beneficial but not sexual relationship based on common interest respect and social intercommunication often as part of a larger group. Sex and more can sometimes happen in such a relationship.

 

IME real true blue genuine friends are much harder to find than sex.

 

Editd to add:

 

@sumdude

 

As I have tried to say just grow that social network larger. Make as many friends, acquaintances etc as you can. Just don't do it with the goal of having a relationship. You'll click with someone eventually.

 

Remember people are social creatures. Women want boyfriends who have a healthy number of friends and good relationships with them.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Mrlonelyone

[Teknoe]

@sumdude

 

As I have tried to say just grow that social network larger. Make as many friends, acquaintances etc as you can. Just don't do it with the goal of having a relationship. You'll click with someone eventually.

 

Remember people are social creatures. Women want boyfriends who have a healthy number of friends and good relationships with them.

 

Exactly. I was at a small group gathering tonight with some friends. Quite a few couples in the group. Anyway, one guy's bday is end of May. People were already talking about a throwing a BBQ for the guy. He just sat there and smiled. His GF looked happy as she held onto his arm. You could just tell they share a healthy relationship with each other, and with their mutual friends. It's healthy.

 

It's really impossible for an average looking (at best) loner with no confidence and no passions in life to get a GF. I've never ever seen it.

 

Girls love throwing birthday parties for their BF and getting their BF's friends involved. If you don't have any it's like "uhhh..." just gets a bit awkward. Again, this isn't the #1 reason to make friends, but it's one of those perks.

 

It's unnatural to not have friends. There are some definite red flags there, and most girls would never go there...

[Emilia]

 

But I know that having friends is not the key to getting women which everybody is trying to convince me otherwise.

 

Wrong. Most people meet their partners through their friends. It still tops OLD and bars. Women by and large also dislike loners

 

 

It's 100% possible for a man to have several friends, and still do horrible with women.

 

Not as high a % as loners. What the issue is and why you don't like having friends I suspect, is that having a circle of friends is a constant feed back on how you are doing. You have to figure out and re-calibrate relationships with your friends depending on group and individual dynamics.

 

I don't think you are capable of this and it's the same reason you cannot get a girlfriend. You simply don't have the social skills to maintain friendships nor romantic relationships.

 

The reason for this is that you only care about what you could possibly get from the other person and most people see through this. I think someone posted a thread about the importance of attraction in a relationship a while ago and your response was you didn't care if your girlfriend was attracted to you as long as she let you have sex with her. That pretty much sums up your attitude to other human beings on this planet.

[Emilia]

 

So my advice to him is to set up an OLD account. He'll be in contact with women who want to date, and some who even want to hook up. Something simple he can get started on today.

 

From what I have seen men who struggle with connecting with women/people in real life struggle just as much online. OLD is not some magic wand that solves your problems, it's just a database.

[Teknoe]

What the issue is and why you don't like having friends I suspect, is that having a circle of friends is a constant feed back on how you are doing. You have to figure out and re-calibrate relationships with your friends depending on group and individual dynamics.

 

I don't think you are capable of this and it's the same reason you cannot get a girlfriend. You simply don't have the social skills to maintain friendships nor romantic relationships.

 

Right. I agree especially with the bolded part. Having friends means some sort of "accountability." Like SD said, he had past friends get on his case about being too girl-obsessive to the degree where it was unhealthy. It's so much easier being alone and not having to hear that in real life. Sure, we can post about it to him, but he can glance over our text like it's nothing. An audible voice in his ear and a person face to face is not as easily avoidable.

 

Also, pretty clear he doesn't have a good grasp on how to emotionally handle conflicts or points of disagreement.

 

Until he can develop the social skills to maintain friendships in a healthy manner, I don't ever see him getting into a romantic relationship. I'm not trying to hate on the guy or make him feel bad, I'm simply speaking about REALITY.

[Emilia]

Let’s Talk About Why the ‘Friend Zone’ is Bull**** | STUFF YOU WILL HATE

 

Enclosed is a lovely, humorous blog post from one of my favorite blogs about why the friend zone is BS and how grown men who get themselves caught in those situations need to pull their heads out of a certain cavernous orifice. I, for one, think it's spot on.

 

Thoughts?

 

I suppose I'm always surprised how some people appear to have one dimensional relationships with the opposite sex. Since each girl is different, the only common denominator is the man himself.

[Emilia]

I'm not trying to hate on the guy or make him feel bad, I'm simply speaking about REALITY.

 

Like others said you probably want to give up at this point though. As much as it's interesting to disect people's lives, it's also a bit gruesome. Also, it's not like somedude gives a f*** about what we think