Consolidated discussion - The Friend Zone

[motive2002]

What I learned the hard way about the "friend-zone" is not so much pining after a girl and being like her brother or whatever... it was something a bit different.

 

The chick you REALLY have to watch out for, is the one that flirts with you a LOT and drops little hints that there could be something more if you made a move.. then when you make one BAM she hits you with the "but we're just friends" line.

The process repeats and you're lured back in.. until you figure out her BS and finally call her on it.

 

It's not just men who "put themselves" into this situation. There are constantly cases where women abuse their attractiveness to a man to lead them on because they LIKE the attention, and the guy friend who really wants something more is kept strung along so she's not alone or feeling undesirable.

 

I think THIS is truly why men hate the friend-zone. I think this is WHY if she's not going to ever step up, he should just bail COMPLETELY and not take this BS offer of "friendship", when it's really just a crutch for her self esteem.

 

It's well known that since birth women learn the artful craft of manipulating men... so I don't buy that it's ALL the guy's fault. BUT if us guys are more informed and know what to look out for, we can nip that BS right in the bud and carry on with some dignity.

[ThaWholigan]

What I learned the hard way about the "friend-zone" is not so much pining after a girl and being like her brother or whatever... it was something a bit different.

 

The chick you REALLY have to watch out for, is the one that flirts with you a LOT and drops little hints that there could be something more if you made a move.. then when you make one BAM she hits you with the "but we're just friends" line.

The process repeats and you're lured back in.. until you figure out her BS and finally call her on it.

 

It's not just men who "put themselves" into this situation. There are constantly cases where women abuse their attractiveness to a man to lead them on because they LIKE the attention, and the guy friend who really wants something more is kept strung along so she's not alone or feeling undesirable.

 

I think THIS is truly why men hate the friend-zone. I think this is WHY if she's not going to ever step up, he should just bail COMPLETELY and not take this BS offer of "friendship", when it's really just a crutch for her self esteem.

 

It's well known that since birth women learn the artful craft of manipulating men... so I don't buy that it's ALL the guy's fault. BUT if us guys are more informed and know what to look out for, we can nip that BS right in the bud and carry on with some dignity.

This particular strand of the friendzone scenario is very accurate, but I question how common it is in comparison to guys who allow themselves to be self-delusional.

[somedude81]

Wow 10. You know the other day, I tried to play guitar 10 times. I couldn't get it, therefore I doubt that practicing makes me better at playing guitar.

 

I have 10 times more friends than you do. Counting past friends that I no longer keep in touch with... even more.

Posting what I really want to say to you would get me banned, so use your imagination.

[Els]

Fairly good article, not written in a style that I particularly fancy, but excellent premise nevertheless.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

A good summary of why bellyaching about the friend zone needs to stop

 

 

 

A better summary of why bellyaching about the friend zone needs to stop:

 

 

The Ladder Theory

[motive2002]

A better summary of why bellyaching about the friend zone needs to stop:

 

 

The Ladder Theory

 

Dude, I lost the link to this article. Forgot how damn funny it is. Thanks for sharing.

[fishtaco]

. It's taking me ages to get really good at guitar and bass. But I'm getting results, I learn new things every day.

 

It's taking me ages, and I'm still not good at guitar. I'm working on it though. I don't really care if one day I can be a bad-ass guitar player, it's something I like, so I keep doing it.

 

Posting what I really want to say to you would get me banned, so use your imagination.

 

Heh, why are you so against doing the right thing? I'm not the only one on LS saying what I'm saying.

 

But anyway, whatever. You're absolutely right, and I'm absolutely wrong. Don't make friends with women. Whatever it is that you're doing, I'm sure that's the right thing to do.

[Teknoe]

when I had friends, they often got on my case for being down so often and wanting a girlfriend so badly.

 

 

Interesting. I thought you swore the online persona that you project is much different from the real life persona? In this case, it doesn't seem to be that way.

 

And I think I have a better understanding of why you don't have a social circle TODAY. When you had a small one back in your junior college days, they got on you for being down so often and your girlfriend desperation/obsession. It's much easier being alone and having no one being able to tell you things you DON'T want to hear.

 

So now you're alone, without any friends, so no one in real life can tell you to your face things that you don't want to hear.

 

Also, at your age of 30, most men and women 27-32 have much different life experiences from you. They're, in most cases, emotionally mature adults. From your posts, you're not exactly the spitting image of what I'd call an "emotionally healthy adult." I imagine it difficult for you to associate with men and women in your age range.

 

And that's why you go after younger girls (i.e. 21, 22 years old). They don't yet have the life experiences that a 29 year old woman would have. You feel you have a better chance at getting with a 21 year old female than you would a 30 year old woman, correct?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But I can see why you eliminated any social circles in your life. The fact that you ONCE had people in real life telling you things you DIDN'T want to hear, at some point you probably thought to yourself "I don't need this. I don't need them. I don't need friends. All I need is a girlfriend."

 

Good luck.

[carhill]

The frustration and prior, if any, bellyaching, departed after, oddly, attending MC, where I learned about differing 'styles' of attraction, love, psychology, etc. I then could process every incident I might have complained about as clearly a fundamental difference in love/attraction 'style'. Essentially, as I got to know the lady, there was a tipping point where I began to find her attractive sexually, and this didn't happen immediately. The friendzone ladies had a differing style, where they processed attraction immediately; if it wasn't there for them, it would never be there, no matter how intimate they became otherwise. We were just on different paths because of our style differences. It appears, if LS is any indicator of wider data points, that this style of women is common, hence a potentially accurate reason for one aspect of my lack of dating success as a young man. Another potent reason was my own pursuit of unhealthy potentials, which drained resources away from healthier and more compatible relationship potentials. Another interesting nuance I've noted of late, as I'm out of the dating market, is that healthy ladies like having me as a friend and reciprocate. Unhealthy ladies actually get angry at me for desiring (and requiring) a healthy and mutually satisfying friendship. MC helped a lot with this too, clarifying boundaries and expressing wants and needs clearly.

 

I found the ladder theory incredibly descriptive of my own life experience, and in a wonderfully humorous way. That era is over so no bellyaching from me. Looking forward with a smile. Good luck.

[Teknoe]

Heh, why are you so against doing the right thing? I'm not the only one on LS saying what I'm saying.

 

Coz it's easier to complain and believe that it's not your fault but somehow the world's? Because doing things that might actually move him forward in life requires some heavy lifting and persistence? Coz change is scary? I dunno... could be those reasons...

[fishtaco]

Coz it's easier to complain and believe that it's not your fault but somehow the world's? Because doing things that might actually move him forward in life requires some heavy lifting and persistence? Coz change is scary? I dunno... could be those reasons...

 

I read your last post. Made a lot of sense. I didn't realize somedude actually isolated himself and cut off his friends too.

 

Well, that's unfortunate.

 

But look on the bright side, Mass Effect 3 is a very fun game.

[somedude81]

Heh, why are you so against doing the right thing? I'm not the only one on LS saying what I'm saying.

 

But anyway, whatever. You're absolutely right, and I'm absolutely wrong. Don't make friends with women. Whatever it is that you're doing, I'm sure that's the right thing to do.

What you basically did was tell me that my experiences are irrelevant. And then you expect me to care that you've had more friends then I had. Do I really need to explain myself?

Interesting. I thought you swore the online persona that you project is much different from the real life persona? In this case, it doesn't seem to be that way.

Now tell me how old was I when I had a group of friends? How long ago that's been?

 

 

And I think I have a better understanding of why you don't have a social circle TODAY. When you had a small one back in your junior college days, they got on you for being down so often and your girlfriend desperation/obsession. It's much easier being alone and having no one being able to tell you things you DON'T want to hear.

Yes that is part of it. Also the last guy friend I had, ended up totally disrespecting me and using me. Then I also decided to just focus all my energy on getting a GF, and that there isn't any need for guy friends.

 

 

Also, at your age of 30, most men and women 27-32 have much different life experiences from you. They're, in most cases, emotionally mature adults. From your posts, you're not exactly the spitting image of what I'd call an "emotionally healthy adult." I imagine it difficult for you to associate with men and women in your age range.

I really have no idea. I don't know anybody in my age range.

 

And that's why you go after younger girls (i.e. 21, 22 years old). They don't yet have the life experiences that a 29 year old woman would have. You feel you have a better chance at getting with a 21 year old female than you would a 30 year old woman, correct?

First off all, I have no idea where to even meet a single 30 year old woman. I know where to meet girls 18-23.

 

The answer to your last question is yes. I simply have much more in common and a similar lifestyle to that of a 21 year old than to somebody who is 25+.

[fishtaco]

What you basically did was tell me that my experiences are irrelevant. And then you expect me to care that you've had more friends then I had. Do I really need to explain myself?

 

My point was 10 doesn't do anything. I have hundreds of friends in order to "benefit from it". So your 10 was on the right track, but you expect magic to happen right away? And you call that "experience"? It's not irrelevant, it's NOT ENOUGH. You think you half-ass at something then suddenly you're the expert? If you're not the expert then it's the world's fault? Anyone that's not coddling you is making your experience irrelevant?

 

Really? Are you for real or are you just trolling? I find it difficult to believe you're actually serious.

 

Anyway, please put me on your ignore list, because you're going on mine.

 

Good luck.

[somedude81]

My point was 10 doesn't do anything. I have hundreds of friends in order to "benefit from it". So your 10 was on the right track, but you expect magic to happen right away? And you call that "experience"? It's not irrelevant, it's NOT ENOUGH. You think you half-ass at something then suddenly you're the expert? If you're not the expert then it's the world's fault? Anyone that's not coddling you is making your experience irrelevant?

 

Really? Are you for real or are you just trolling? I find it difficult to believe you're actually serious.

 

Anyway, please put me on your ignore list, because you're going on mine.

 

Good luck.

Since you're obviously not understanding something, I'll point this out.

 

Some people don't have a lot of friends and the ones they do have are special to them. Also, not everybody is an extrovert/social butterfly.

 

Think about that and my previous posts. Anything clicking for you?

[Teknoe]

Now tell me how old was I when I had a group of friends? How long ago that's been?

 

I don't know. I just recall you saying the last time you had any sort of male social circle was junior college, which I'm guessing was when you were 18-19 years old, AKA 11-12 years ago AKA 2000/2001?

 

Yes that is part of it. Also the last guy friend I had, ended up totally disrespecting me and using me. Then I also decided to just focus all my energy on getting a GF, and that there isn't any need for guy friends.

 

Focusing all your energy on getting a GF has gotten you where, exactly? You're in the same exact place, actually, you're worse off now since you STILL don't have a girlfriend and NOW you have no friends to relate to. I know you THINK there's no need for guy friends, and I understand your last guy buddy hurt you, but that doesn't mean future guy friends will use you or hurt you. And quite frankly, if you live life scared, you'll never go anywhere.

 

How did your last guy friend disrespect you?

 

How did he use you?

 

Just curious what the circumstances were that led to all of that.

 

 

I really have no idea. I don't know anybody in my age range.

 

First off all, I have no idea where to even meet a single 30 year old woman. I know where to meet girls 18-23.

 

I just googled "Southern California young adult meet-ups" and got 2.71 million hits, lol. It's not that hard. Look up meet-ups online, pick one, attend. You're making it sound like looking for a needle in a haystack. If you really wanted to, you could meet young adults your age. IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO. But it doesn't sound like you care, since all you're fixating on is getting a girlfriend.

 

Again, how is that working out for ya?

 

You still don't have a GF, *AND* you don't have any social support to help lift you up.

 

This is why I've suggested a small group activity night for you in the past. You'll meet people your age, and they will support you. Sure, some will judge, but I'm willing to bet there will be some who will see you for the diamond that you are deep down. You need that right now in your life.

 

But again, the choice is yours. You can step out of your small box/comfort zone in faith, or you can choose to remain right where you are, and probably regress as time passes.

 

Question is, how bad do you want it? ("it" being positive change). You reap what you sow...

[TheBigQuestion]

I should have known this would have turned into an SD81-centered thread.

 

Anyways, motive2002 caught on to something to which I would like to respond. It is true that there are a sizable amount of women, usually during the college years, who are highly manipulative in their flirtations so that upon making a move, a guy gets blindsided by the "we're just friends" speech. No, men are obviously not at fault for creating these situations, but they often play a considerable role in ensuring that that they persist. Denial is an incredibly strong force in these situations, and I remember a few guys who would cling to their female "best friends" for years, their desires for "something more" waxing and waning but never disappearing entirely. Sure, sometimes these girls would lead them on, but their own infatuation blinded them to reality, time and time again, sometimes for years, and even in the face of the girl having a boyfriend.

 

Now, anyone who follows me here knows that I'm hardly one to disproportionately blame anything on the male gender. But in this case, I really do think that disappointment of "friend-zoning" is a phenomenon for which socially inept men are primarily responsible. The best thing anyone can do for them is to instruct them on how to avoid this from a very early age. Guys like SD81 really do need lives outside their obsession/pursuit of women before they can even begin to break their dysfunctional cycles.

[somedude81]

I should have known this would have turned into an SD81-centered thread.

First of all, I'm hardly the only poster in this thread. All posts I make are on topic. And yes you should have known. There are only a couple of issues that I actually post about. The friendzone is one of them. Now tell me TBQ, when you made this thread, did I cross your mind at all? If not who were you thinking about?

[Teknoe]

SD,

Your response to post #65 of this thread?

[zengirl]

When I bother to put in the effort, I can make female friends.

 

Frankly, I've had enough fights with female friends, and having things go very wrong because they couldn't return my feelings that it is just not something I want to deal with again. Those have happened in situations where I liked the girl from the start and it's happened when I had no feelings for the girl at all, and she wasn't even remotely my type, but I still fell for her.

 

It really doesn't sound like your female friends are actually friends. Whether they started as a sincere effort by you to be friends or not, if this is the dynamic that emerges, it stops being a friendship.

 

Your fixation with getting a GF does not allow you to have female friends at this time. That is why people often tell you to first build a social circle with male friends, ftr. You essentially cut out the first part of fish's advice -- to make and keep male friends first and THEN make and keep female friends and only THEN be ready for romantic relationships. You immediately shortened the chain in your mind -- you often do this, skip steps, avoid anything you feel might "delay" you from getting a R, but doing so and fixating on that R has delayed you consistently. Anyway, that's all I'll say about YOU, as this is a thread about FZ in general, not SD's love life.

 

The chick you REALLY have to watch out for, is the one that flirts with you a LOT and drops little hints that there could be something more if you made a move.. then when you make one BAM she hits you with the "but we're just friends" line. The process repeats and you're lured back in.. until you figure out her BS and finally call her on it.

 

As TBQ says, I don't think this is the majority of the situations by far. However, of course there are women who want orbiters and will manipulate to varying degrees to get it. (There are men who will too, but they also want sex, so they will manipulate to get the phenomenon we often see as LS as a 'harem' but it is fairly rare that this happens as well.)

 

However, such people are easily avoided by the same methods outlined in the article: Realize that any dynamic and relationship you have with a person is VOLUNTARY and choose not to engage in it if it is not something you want to engage in. If you feel a person is neither a real friend, nor someone who is expressing the kind of romantic interest you want right now, why wait around? There's no reason. Some manipulations in life are harder to avoid, but this one is truly an easy one to avoid. Honestly.

 

NEVER hang around for something that might change in the future. That lesson applies to both men and women, "friend zone" or "sex zone" or whatever. Hell, it even applies to relationships, unless you're both actively working on changing some dynamic of a serious LTR through serious means, like MC (i.e. don't wait around for someone ELSE to change, but if you're both committed to each other, you can actively wait for your R to change, if you're working towards it -- that's a different story, obviously).

[Mme. Chaucer]

It's all true. There also needs to be an article for women too. So many women will get into a relationship with an uncontrollable guy, thinking they can change him. Then they get devastated when it doesn't happen. It's similar to friendzone but in this case she gets laid.

 

That's not what the article is about.

 

It's basically refuting the whole concept of "friendzone."

 

Either be actual friends, or don't. There is no such place as the "friend zone." If you don't want to go on as friends with a woman because you don't like her or you feel she is using you for manly favors because you want to get in her pants, which she may be doing, then just move on. Being friends with somebody, though, is no valid reason for whining and self pity. Friendship is actually a gift.

[dasein]

Now, anyone who follows me here knows that I'm hardly one to disproportionately blame anything on the male gender.

 

There's another type of friendzoning, historical revision. I have experienced this when things seem to be going great with a woman. We are having regular sex, have agreed to exclusivity, several months, then a shiny BBD comes along. IME it's been local celebrities or very wealthy men. BBD expresses interest in the woman I'm dating and suddenly, "well you have been a great -friend- but I can see a life with Mr. Big." I move on annoyed and somewhat humiliated that that is all it takes to invalidate a relationship in a dishonest way, and at having wasted time on a person with no character.

 

Then of course Mr. Big has just another of dozens of options to choose from. One woman who did this to me did in fact marry Mr. Big, but it took her 4 years and being a harem mate during the interim to accomplish it. Have seen this happen to friends even after marriage, which is a big reason I advise men not to get married unless they want children, and to be the guy with options. Once they perceive you don't have options, your social value plummets and regardless of indicia of romance and how healthy the relationship seems on the surface, they will begin friendzoning you... you will likely not know it until you have been through it a couple times. Lots of what men post to this forum comes back to this very issue IMO, and I think it is a gender thing. Have seen it happen to a few women, many many men though. I have many married female acquaintances who despite being happily married, some even with kids, they let it be known that they think of me as a BBD and are open to it. In these scenarios I've done nothing at all to encourage it.

 

This is a lesson to men which I have finally learned myself, either she thinks you are the BBD, or you are always vulnerable. This type of behavior -never- happens when I have one foot out the door, they know it, and I have options. There is a huge pressure to "give yourself" to a woman because you think it's what they want. They do want it, but makes them feel more secure. From security, they will begin the subtle process of being open to "upgrades" and simultaneously begin reconstructing you as a friend. A friend they screw 5 times a week, introduce as their BF, tell you they love you daily, but a friend nonetheless. Guys who play more of an iron fisted game in relationships never get this treatment. I haven't since I've been more Machiavellian. Always keep a woman a little insecure, never let her think she "has" you 100%.

 

And to clarify, it doesn't have to be a millionaire or celebrity, it's whichever male in your social group that she may perceive who is "above you" in social value who is "gettable." Ironically, it can be a guy you introduce her to. The trick is to always let her know subtly that you are losable, and will walk at the first hint of "upgrading." This kind of behavior seems to decrease once they have kids or reach a certain age, but can continue well into middle age in many women.

[ThaWholigan]

I can't imagine myself doing all this supplicating stuff just to make a girl my GF. If I do anything, it's because I want to do it, not as means to an end (bell-end ).

 

I really don't alllow myself to be so vulnerable off the bat, it's a futile endeavor in all honesty, that's why the friendzone doesn't exist to me.

[ThaWholigan]

There's another type of friendzoning, historical revision. I have experienced this when things seem to be going great with a woman. We are having regular sex, have agreed to exclusivity, several months, then a shiny BBD comes along. IME it's been local celebrities or very wealthy men. BBD expresses interest in the woman I'm dating and suddenly, "well you have been a great -friend- but I can see a life with Mr. Big." I move on annoyed and somewhat humiliated that that is all it takes to invalidate a relationship in a dishonest way, and at having wasted time on a person with no character.

 

Then of course Mr. Big has just another of dozens of options to choose from. One woman who did this to me did in fact marry Mr. Big, but it took her 4 years and being a harem mate during the interim to accomplish it. Have seen this happen to friends even after marriage, which is a big reason I advise men not to get married unless they want children, and to be the guy with options. Once they perceive you don't have options, your social value plummets and regardless of indicia of romance and how healthy the relationship seems on the surface, they will begin friendzoning you... you will likely not know it until you have been through it a couple times. Lots of what men post to this forum comes back to this very issue IMO, and I think it is a gender thing. Have seen it happen to a few women, many many men though. I have many married female acquaintances who despite being happily married, some even with kids, they let it be known that they think of me as a BBD and are open to it. In these scenarios I've done nothing at all to encourage it.

 

This is a lesson to men which I have finally learned myself, either she thinks you are the BBD, or you are always vulnerable. This type of behavior -never- happens when I have one foot out the door, they know it, and I have options. There is a huge pressure to "give yourself" to a woman because you think it's what they want. They do want it, but makes them feel more secure. From security, they will begin the subtle process of being open to "upgrades" and simultaneously begin reconstructing you as a friend. A friend they screw 5 times a week, introduce as their BF, tell you they love you daily, but a friend nonetheless. Guys who play more of an iron fisted game in relationships never get this treatment. I haven't since I've been more Machiavellian. Always keep a woman a little insecure, never let her think she "has" you 100%.

 

And to clarify, it doesn't have to be a millionaire or celebrity, it's whichever male in your social group that she may perceive who is "above you" in social value who is "gettable." Ironically, it can be a guy you introduce her to. The trick is to always let her know subtly that you are losable, and will walk at the first hint of "upgrading." This kind of behavior seems to decrease once they have kids or reach a certain age, but can continue well into middle age in many women.

This happened to my mum. Step-father left her for a young white woman with a rich mother (£millions). They had kids together but it didn't last (although it was he who left).

 

I've seen this happen where quite a few women tend to upgrade boyfriends while still in a relationship, even going as far as to humiliate the last guy depending on the kind of man he is/was. I find that if he was an all-round likeable character, they wouldn't do this, but they would still leave for someone who was simply "better".

 

I've always liked the idea of options, but I never realized how essential it might be until not too long ago, especially in a city like London. It just so happens that it ties in somehow with my big dreams and ambitions, as it will end up being some kind of side-effect. But still, I have a lot of honour in how I do things and I like to be direct about things, so I don't think I will have masses of options.

[Emilia]

I've always liked the idea of options, but I never realized how essential it might be until not too long ago, especially in a city like London.

 

how do you mean?

[ThaWholigan]

how do you mean?

Many of the areas I know where people live, a man who looks like he has options generally has an easier time having a relationship, or attracting women towards him. This could be for various reasons. This is very apparent to me, the majority of the time a lot of girls I encounter expect you to have a certain level of social expertise and have a few options. If you present yourself as though you have none of either, you're toast. This is minor to me though, just an interpretation of my own observations. I could of course be wrong.....

 

For example, my little brother. Always has girls who like him so he has lots of options. And it seems the more options he has, more and more girls like him, and it continues. It shows in his character and how he presents himself too.