What happened to Life is not Fair and not all things Equal.

[rafallus]

Is this the new locker room talk and male norm. Everything between males and females has to be equal? Is this realistic? Or is it simply the new Man Nag or Boy-bitch?

I have never heard so much heckling by men, that because a woman wishes to be treated like a lady, she has some duty to clean, cook, iron, and take punches for their man, wear the pants in the relationship, and work to boot.

Life will never be equal or fair.

 

That being said, what would you say, if a male not only didn't whine and dine a woman, but also make her do chores, therefore doing inequality, but to the other side? Would you also say "Life's not fair, get over it"?

Edited August 14, 2011 by rafallus

[AlexDP]

Is this the new locker room talk and male norm. Everything between males and females has to be equal? Is this realistic? Or is it simply the new Man Nag or Boy-bitch?

I have never heard so much heckling by men, that because a woman wishes to be treated like a lady, she has some duty to clean, cook, iron, and take punches for their man, wear the pants in the relationship, and work to boot.

 

That's pretty normal actually. You can't expect to have all the advantages of being treated like a lady and none of the disadvantages. Either you're being treated as equal or you're not. Don't expect to be put on a pedestal, just because you have a vagina.

[zengirl]

First of all, I take umbrage to the mis-use of the word feminist in this thread. I am a feminist, and any woman who is not a feminist is essentially self-hating because all a feminist is = a woman who thinks women should have the same legal rights and social equality as a man. I don't know who wants to hang around with people who believe they're lesser beings; I certainly don't.

 

Is this the new locker room talk and male norm. Everything between males and females has to be equal? Is this realistic? Or is it simply the new Man Nag or Boy-bitch?

I have never heard so much heckling by men, that because a woman wishes to be treated like a lady, she has some duty to clean, cook, iron, and take punches for their man, wear the pants in the relationship, and work to boot.

 

I've never been told I had a duty to do any of those things. Instead, I've been told there are many ways to exist in the world and in your relationships and you can CHOOSE and cobble out your own path, based on what works for you. I'm almost 27, so I live on my own; I didn't go from my father's house to my husband's house, so of course I can support myself financially and otherwise, cook, clean, and take care of my home and self----AND so can every man I date. We may have different strengths and weaknesses, but why should that be about our genders? I know women who are great at carpentry and men who love to knit; let people do what they want to do in the world, and don't do anything you don't want to do.

 

I think she means being treated with respect. Mutual respect between men and women is important, but with today's hookup culture, it seems like many men have lost respect for women and just treat them like sex objects. They don't even want to date women anymore, they just want to have sex with them and be done with it.

 

In terms of dating and relationships, it seems like men don't want equality, they want women to do all the work. They've gotten lazy. Dating should be 50/50, but a lot of guys won't even do the bare minimum.

 

I don't think she means being treated with respect, based on her other threads and complaints. But really, shouldn't EVERYONE be treated with respect. Why is that a gender issue?

 

I'm not into calculation, but I do think dating should be a mutually enjoyable experience where both partners invest and both partners benefit. (When you get into calculation, you're inviting petty energy to the relationship, and that either means something was already wrong with the relationship or something is wrong with you.) I have found plenty of men eager to invest in relationships with me, who help bring me fulfillment, treat me nicely, support me, and encourage my happiness. And I've seen men and women do this in other people's relationships as well.

 

I've never felt like men want women to do all the work. Maybe some men are like that, but so are some women with their men. Just don't date those people! They're the same kind of people who think life should hand them everything in other ways as well (or they're just really attractive with a particular personality and used to getting their way easily, and in that case, they'll almost always pick someone who is a challenge in the end anyway, though I don't recommend dating those types either).

 

It is really all over the place, men cannot expect to be entitled to a slut and a feminist rolled up in one. You want feminists, then you need to start enjoying the bossy, hard core, bull dykes to come your way. Come on. Who are the entitled ones? Men still want the women to be feminine, but women are to pay for their meals, listen to their man-whiney spills all day without banging their heads into the nearest wall, and have sex with them on demand. And women wish to be treated equally as men, but do not wish to carry their own bags, fill their own gas tank because they are too weak. It is all hogwash. This is woman's lib?

 

Wow, what a gross use of the word "feminist."

 

Women and men wish to be with people who support them, have caring and compassion for them, and treat them right. The bag and gas tank things come from specific examples of niceness in another thread, and all I and the other women (who mentioned those types of things) were trying to say were that practical ways men have been nice to us are very appreciated. Donnamaybe even gave you a practical way she was nice to her man, and you said, "Ew! I'd never stoop to that level!"

 

All people should have legal and social equality, and then, in partnerships, all people should be nice, caring, considerate, supportive, helpful, and respectful of each other. Why do you want random rules on what people should do to show they "respect" you---respect doesn't come from pulling out a chair, IMO. But if you feel it does, feel free to only date chair-pullers; just don't tell the rest of the world how to live and date or act like relationships are empty or cheap if they aren't the way you like yours.

 

It is changing. Now men expect women to do the approaching and pursuing. And apparently they expect women to do everything else in the relationship too. It used to be that guys only made an effort in the beginning. They were willing to approach the girl and pursue her, but once they had her, they got lazy. It was women who maintained the relationships because men didn't feel the need to make an effort once they became a couple.

 

See, I find now that women can approach more, this effect is actually improved. I often approach and "pick out" the men who've become my BF (many, many men still approach me, but they don't tend to be the ones I like best, personality-wise, so rather than feel thwarted and bummed by that, I go after what I want). Which means I'll show interest. He still does plenty of "beginning" work, such as arranging dates, picking me up, etc. And he KEEPS investing and adding to the relationship, as do I, throughout the time, even after that brief courting period has ended.

 

A guy who comes on strong, does everything for you, puts in crazy effort, and then stops once you're securely in a relationship IS lame, I'll give you that. That's why relationships should be mutually built from the beginning and mutually continued.

[LoveandSuch]

That's pretty normal actually. You can't expect to have all the advantages of being treated like a lady and none of the disadvantages. Either you're being treated as equal or you're not. Don't expect to be put on a pedestal, just because you have a vagina.

 

Yeah, but all the women screaming equal rights on this board, actually allow their men to carry heavy objects for them, because in their own words their men see them as the weaker sex and therefore too weak to handle the task EQUALLY. Another claims it is okay for her man to freeze his ass off, because he is a man, and somehow, his being cold is okay, because she is the weaker sex and cannot handle the task EQUALLY. Sorry, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Cannot have it both ways!

These same equal rights schreechers, expect to be put on a pedestal and allow their men to do all hard work and labor for them, why, because he is a man. Nothing fair about that. Maybe some endurance training, lifting a few weights might do these gals a little good, who are too weak to handle their own BS.

[LoveandSuch]

Another good point is, it is up to the man to decide who he treats like a princess and who he places up on a pedestal. I cannot help this is how men CHOOSE to treat me. It is their choice.

[LoveandSuch]

Some men have become women... only some

I'm sure most men that actually came across you turned out to be lovely gents.

 

Many have, lovely indeed, and most importantly were quite happy and comfortable with their own successes in life, regardless if monetary or spiritually, that they had little reason to nag and bicker about equal rights among men and women.

[Negative Nancy]

That's pretty normal actually. You can't expect to have all the advantages of being treated like a lady and none of the disadvantages. Either you're being treated as equal or you're not. Don't expect to be put on a pedestal, just because you have a vagina.

 

lol

 

thing is, all men want that "vagina" so we can afford to act whatever way we want. women have the upper hand by the virtue of being a woman. since men want and need sex way more desperately (on average) than women, you can go off on your rant about how women shouldn't be on a pedestal but the reality is that women are catered to just because we look good and are able to get a man's d*** hard. i'm talking about really gorgeous, stunning, hot women, not the average plain jane. men in heat can be really fun to watch, how they bend over backwards just to please a woman in hopes of getting a little nookie. why do you think so many men whine about taking a woman out to dinner and getting nothin in return, a.k.a. sex. the whole pua community is dedicated to losers getting women to sleep with them. men want that vagina. they might think like you, that women shouldn't be on a pedestal just cos we have a vagina, but fact is that that is merely frustration speaking out of you because men need sex.

 

 

thank god i have a hot boyfriend that i have a mutual, equal relationship with, so i don't have to take part in the whole dating circus anymore.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Negative Nancy

[LoveandSuch]

lol

 

thing is, all men want that "vagina" so we can afford to act whatever way we want. women have the upper hand by the virtue of being a woman. since men want and need sex way more desperately (on average) than women, you can go off on your rant about how women shouldn't be on a pedestal but the reality is that women are catered to just because we look good and are able to get a man's d*** hard. i'm talking about really gorgeous, stunning, hot women, not the average plain jane. men in heat can be really fun to watch, how they bend over backwards just to please a woman in hopes of getting a little nookie. why do you think so many men whine about taking a woman out to dinner and getting nothin in return, a.k.a. sex. the whole pua community is dedicated to losers getting women to sleep with them. men want that vagina. they might think like you, that women shouldn't be on a pedestal just cos we have a vagina, but fact is that that is merely frustration speaking out of you because men need sex.

 

 

thank god i have a hot boyfriend that i have a mutual, equal relationship with, so i don't have to take part in the whole dating circus anymore.

 

Life is beautiful! You have a hot male who loves all of you and treats you like a princess:) You go girl! I love the power of beauty and vaginas, lol.

[PratyekaYana]

lol

 

thing is, all men want that "vagina" so we can afford to act whatever way we want.

 

Do you not see how this attitude is perpetuating of the kind of demeaning behavior that we've addressed in several pages of this thread? To say that you have no constraints on your behavior because you possess a certain sex organ is equivalent to a man stating that he may act as he pleases in a marriage/relationship because he may be the breadwinner. How you comport yourself with respect to others should not be determined by what you feel you can get away with; there should be an internal locus of control for decency.

 

 

women have the upper hand by the virtue of being a woman. since men want and need sex way more desperately (on average) than women, you can go off on your rant about how women shouldn't be on a pedestal but the reality is that women are catered to just because we look good and are able to get a man's d*** hard.

 

An interesting if not slightly off key story relating to what you wrote:

 

I once worked informally with a group of contractors who were all very promiscuous and entirely unfaithful to their significant others. At the time, I was fresh out of high school and still attached to my romantic notions of a healthy relationship, and I simply could not understand why otherwise sterling men would choose to tacitly degrade their women in such a manner. It was explained to me that without the rotating supply of sexual gratification in the form of multiple women any one of these men might fall prey to the manipulations of their girlfriends and wives (withholding sex until demands are met). So, in essence, promiscuity was their answer to the pedestal effect that you're describing.

[Disillusioned]

I don't bother with guys who expect me to chase them (nothing turns me off more than arrogance), but it does seem like more and more men are expecting it these days. Not because they're the type who can get any woman they want. They just don't want to do any work.

 

That part is only half true. If we don't want to do any work, it's because we know we'll have nothing to show for it. Nobody wants to win the contest and then not get any prize.

[Woggle]

lol

 

thing is, all men want that "vagina" so we can afford to act whatever way we want. women have the upper hand by the virtue of being a woman. since men want and need sex way more desperately (on average) than women, you can go off on your rant about how women shouldn't be on a pedestal but the reality is that women are catered to just because we look good and are able to get a man's d*** hard. i'm talking about really gorgeous, stunning, hot women, not the average plain jane. men in heat can be really fun to watch, how they bend over backwards just to please a woman in hopes of getting a little nookie. why do you think so many men whine about taking a woman out to dinner and getting nothin in return, a.k.a. sex. the whole pua community is dedicated to losers getting women to sleep with them. men want that vagina. they might think like you, that women shouldn't be on a pedestal just cos we have a vagina, but fact is that that is merely frustration speaking out of you because men need sex.

 

 

thank god i have a hot boyfriend that i have a mutual, equal relationship with, so i don't have to take part in the whole dating circus anymore.

 

 

Not all men are willing to hand over their balls just for a little nookie. I never have and never will degrade myself for it. It's funny that when these man eaters meet a man who won't be their little puppy dog they completely lose it. They can't take not having sexual power over a man. I am a man and I get sexually aroused but I know what it is and I let the big head do the thinking instead of the little one.

[Disillusioned]

Not all men are willing to hand over their balls just for a little nookie. I never have and never will degrade myself for it. It's funny that when these man eaters meet a man who won't be their little puppy dog they completely lose it. They can't take not having sexual power over a man.

 

No lie, bro.

 

I once worked at a company where one such woman was one of my bosses. When I resisted her forceful come-ons, she retaliated by cooking up all kinds of crap to make me look like I was screwing up on the job, in an unsuccessful attempt to get me fired.

[Woggle]

No lie, bro.

 

I once worked at a company where one such woman was one of my bosses. When I resisted her forceful come-ons, she retaliated by cooking up all kinds of crap to make me look like I was screwing up on the job, in an unsuccessful attempt to get me fired.

 

I had a FWB and I was as clear as day that this was only about sex. When she realized that I wasn't going to fall for her she freaked out. When a woman who is used to having cater to her runs into one who keeps his composure it gets very interesting.

[LoveandSuch]

It is funny all men think women want to marry them just because she is having sex with them. 99% of the men I come across have nothing I desire and the few I do desire, it is for a mere FWB relationship.

The women who were considering becoming serious most likely were low on the appetizer round, and were just settling for momentary marginal happiness.

Too many beautiful men out there, why settle for slobs, man boobs, whiners, or grouches.

[Woggle]

It is funny all men think women want to marry them just because she is having sex with them. 99% of the men I come across have nothing I desire and the few I do desire, it is for a mere FWB relationship.

The women who were considering becoming serious most likely were low on the appetizer round, and were just settling for momentary marginal happiness.

Too many beautiful men out there, why settle for slobs, man boobs, whiners, or grouches.

 

Well it was pretty obvious when she said she could see herself marrying me and was constantly trying to call me just to hang out. She was far from subtle about it.

[sally4sara]

Woggle, that's simply not true. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this, but most people (men and women) do not post about their love life on message boards, so you can't draw your conclusions from that. The fact is, most women do not separate sex and emotion. The biology and hormonal makeup of the female body do not allow it. Men, on the other hand, can easily separate sex and emotion. The hookup culture is driven by men. Most women do not want it.

 

The ability to blend sex and emotion is part of the blessing of sex for women - its just easier for us like with multiple orgasm.

But while some people (most of which are women) have a hard time having sex without an emotional response I have always been baffled as to why people always assumed that the emotion is LOVE. Its not. Women only claim coy **** like "I only have sex with people I love" because some women still think they need to apologize for their appetite. And they don't have to - just play honest and there is no need for shame. I get that the hook up culture is a bit of a STD cesspool but you don't have to hook up with strangers to have an active sex life. And women, just like men, very much do want an active sex life.

 

Both men and women are brilliant at separating love and sex. Also love and exclusivity are two different things. Both genders role equal when it comes to keeping love and exclusivity separate when having sex.

[zengirl]

The ability to blend sex and emotion is part of the blessing of sex for women - its just easier for us like with multiple orgasm.

But while some people (most of which are women) have a hard time having sex without an emotional response I have always been baffled as to why people always assumed that the emotion is LOVE. Its not. Women only claim coy **** like "I only have sex with people I love" because some women still think they need to apologize for their appetite. And they don't have to - just play honest and there is no need for shame. I get that the hook up culture is a bit of a STD cesspool but you don't have to hook up with strangers to have an active sex life. And women, just like men, very much do want an active sex life.

 

Both men and women are brilliant at separating love and sex. Also love and exclusivity are two different things. Both genders role equal when it comes to keeping love and exclusivity separate when having sex.

 

This is all very true.

 

I do know a few people (one of them a guy, actually) who truly only have sex with someone they love and wait a long time, so I don't think it's ALWAYS B.S. though. But a lot of times it is.

[LoveandSuch]

Well it was pretty obvious when she said she could see herself marrying me and was constantly trying to call me just to hang out. She was far from subtle about it.

 

You were just her best option, again, low on the appetizer round. I cannot believe at times when my appetizer tray is full of yummy bits, and an old flame comes crawling out of the woodwork, and how disgusted I am by the sight of the old liverwurst.

Women settle too quickly, they need to keep their emotions in check, and keep their options open.

[Woggle]

You were just her best option, again, low on the appetizer round. I cannot believe at times when my appetizer tray is full of yummy bits, and an old flame comes crawling out of the woodwork, and how disgusted I am by the sight of the old liverwurst.

Women settle too quickly, they need to keep their emotions in check, and keep their options open.

 

This woman had men falling over themselves to be with her. She was a perfect 10 physically and seemed likable on the surface though she had some serious issues buried underneath. She could have easily gotten any of those other men to cater to her every whim but she tore herself into knots over me. It was because I was the only man who wasn't that impressed with her. I wanted sex and thought she wanted just the same.

[sally4sara]

Also when people talk about equality they're not talking about everyone being able to do everything equally well or with equal ease. Its about everyone having equality of rights. Duhhhhh. No one ever said women and men are equal in abilities and anyone who did is a dumb ass because not even all men are equal in abilities nor are all women equal in ability. Its impossible for everyone to be equal in that way. But it isn't impossible for everyone to be equal in rights or the pursuit of opportunity.

 

And saying "I love being a woman" is kinda ridiculous too because there is no one definition for what it is to be a woman. Saying that says nothing unless you follow it with what being a woman means TO YOU.

[zengirl]

Also when people talk about equality they're not talking about everyone being able to do everything equally well or with equal ease. Its about everyone having equality of rights. Duhhhhh. No one ever said women and men are equal in abilities and anyone who did is a dumb ass because not even all men are equal in abilities nor are all women equal in ability. Its impossible for everyone to be equal in that way. But it isn't impossible for everyone to be equal in rights or the pursuit of opportunity.

 

And saying "I love being a woman" is kinda ridiculous too because there is no one definition for what it is to be a woman. Saying that says nothing unless you follow it with what being a woman means TO YOU.

 

It's also just. . . silly. I mean, unless you've had the surgery and lived as both a woman and man and/or can remember past lives as something else, I hope you do, because it's what you are.

[sally4sara]

It's also just. . . silly. I mean, unless you've had the surgery and lived as both a woman and man and/or can remember past lives as something else, I hope you do, because it's what you are.

 

I know right? Might as well just say "I love being me". THAT I'd understand because DAMN do I love being me!

[LoveandSuch]

This woman had men falling over themselves to be with her. She was a perfect 10 physically and seemed likable on the surface though she had some serious issues buried underneath. She could have easily gotten any of those other men to cater to her every whim but she tore herself into knots over me. It was because I was the only man who wasn't that impressed with her. I wanted sex and thought she wanted just the same.

 

The serious issues while hopefully temporary, is probably why she was engaging with you in such a manner. Hopefully she has a check on her issues and emotions currently to avoid looking needy and desperate and not begging a man to love her.

[Woggle]

The serious issues while hopefully temporary, is probably why she was engaging with you in such a manner. Hopefully she has a check on her issues and emotions currently to avoid looking needy and desperate and not begging a man to love her.

 

Chances are those issues are still there. There was a time in my life when I had four women at once wanting to be my wife so I don't think I have been settled on.

[LoveandSuch]

I know right? Might as well just say "I love being me". THAT I'd understand because DAMN do I love being me!

 

I love being a women and I love men taking me to dinner and spending their money on a fabulous fun filled evening, while enjoying my beauty and charm. Hey, at least I am honest.

It is those who protest too much who are the ones with the issues and hang ups.

They know I can afford to pay for dinner and while I can, it is their choice to happily pay for the evening out, because they choose to do so.

I am sure you nag the heck out of your men too, goes with the territory of the woman feminist, I suppose.