Any legal tips for a BS here?

[andyg99]

stick to your plan - stay calm and be prepared for tons of BS coming your way...

 

Well, I have decided on a date: The papers start flying on the 12th of August.

 

Wish me luck guys. This is probably going to get very ugly.

[Saul Goodman]

stick to your plan - stay calm and be prepared for tons of BS coming your way...

 

Thanks buddy.

 

Phew, nerves are killing me.

[imagine]

Saul, I would hold off the lawyers until you know that you want to divorce her. This plan shows know effort to win her back. This plan also makes the lawyers richer.

 

Exposure is the best way to unhinge her fantasy love life. Not necessarily the surest. Thanks to your unhinging your wallet to your MC you know how to better meet her needs. This is for life.

 

Until now, your marriage has suffered a lack in friendly communication. Fix it now. Fix it forever.

 

Unfortunately, your children needs to realize that mom is unfaithful and that it is WRONG. Make up your mind if you want to win her back or get revenge. Tell your kids only if you are fighting for her.

 

Filing for divorce first, gives you the advantage in court, do you need it at this stage?

[Trimmer]

Make up your mind if you want to win her back or get revenge. Tell your kids only if you are fighting for her.

Can you explain your rationale behind this advice? I'm not saying there isn't any, I just want to understand your thought process.

[andyg99]

Saul, I would hold off the lawyers until you know that you want to divorce her. This plan shows know effort to win her back. This plan also makes the lawyers richer.

 

Exposure is the best way to unhinge her fantasy love life. Not necessarily the surest. Thanks to your unhinging your wallet to your MC you know how to better meet her needs. This is for life.

 

Until now, your marriage has suffered a lack in friendly communication. Fix it now. Fix it forever.

 

Unfortunately, your children needs to realize that mom is unfaithful and that it is WRONG. Make up your mind if you want to win her back or get revenge. Tell your kids only if you are fighting for her.

 

Filing for divorce first, gives you the advantage in court, do you need it at this stage?

 

I disagree - filing is the first step to getting his life back and moving on... I don't see where Saul is seeking revenge, he's just looking at it objectively and realizes that there is little or no chance for this marriage to work...

 

I don't get where he has to "win her back" and "fight" for her... if there's any chance in making it work I'd think that his wife seeing that he means business may actually get her to reconsider - she may see him in a different light as a man who will stick up for himself instead of hanging his head and begging her to come back to him...

 

When an affair happens IMO the marriage is over... the only way it can ever work is both sides putting 110% into a bad marriage.

[stillafool]

Your wife may be surprised to find that after she is planning on leaving her husband for the OM; when it comes down to it he probably will back out of leaving his wife and family and all his stuff. We've seen it happen many times here on LS. If you do decide you want her to stay, once you reveal to her your knowledge of the affair, also tell his wife. Your wife will see the truth of her lover's heart then.

[Yasuandio]

I have been reading from the beginning. Of course, I agree your wife's conduct is unacceptable. I am sorry that you found out the way you did, and have been burdoned with this secret for weeks now. At least you know. However, you did not have to be burdoned with a secret for weeks. That was your choice in the "masterplan" you have construsted.

 

IMO, your Masterplan is no more than a HUGE "Got Cha" Game. I feel certain that this may not be the first time you've engaged in such gaminess. I am not defending you wife's conduct, but, I urge you to factor in where YOU MAY NOT have been addressing her emotional needs (see Marriage Builder website), and visa versa, before you spring this rat-trap.

 

Anyone that would deliberately go thru such devious efforts is, sadly, looking to make a Sensational Big Spash, Front Page News - even just to impress the LS forum. Any attention, is attention, see me, hear me, feel me, touch me, I AM HERE! YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE ME!

 

Why? Iis this some sort of necessary, masochistic "acting-out" on Saul's part, a form of exhibitionism? August 12 will be the BOMB! I will certainly be tuning in!

 

Let me ask you Saul, have you ever done anything similiar to this before? Are you typically kind of sneeky? Do you have a pattern of playing the "Got Cha" game?

 

We all play games. I'm not trying to be critical. I'm trying to point out to you that "this particular time-bomb" you set may blow up in your face --- or turn out to be a dud.

 

Did it ever occur to you that your wife is sick of the "Got Cha" routine, and left the evidence where you could find it? Is it possible you are being played?

 

Let's turn it back around the way it was before I twisted it. Do you love your wife? If she immediately came to her senses, would you was your family to stay intact? If so, you are limiting that chance with your provocitive plan. The entrapment is so deep-seatedly ornate and caculated, that I would wonder if either of you could ever get over the drama of it.

 

Please reconsider an alternate methodolgy. Something tells me you want to preserve your marriage - and this strategy strikes me As a total doom's day dude, and the thill has only a very short shelf life. Good luck. Yas

[Trimmer]

Please reconsider an alternate methodolgy.

Why lay all that out and then not suggest one? Keep going....

[Yasuandio]

Why lay all that out and then not suggest one? Keep going....

 

Will do, Mr., or Ms. Trimmer! Although the "alternate methodology" seemed like an obvious conclusion, at least, to me.

 

This is exactly what I'm proposing. Counter the deceitful, underminded affair, as well as the false participation in bogus MC with HONESTY. Start NOW.

 

1. Tell her what you know.

2. Tell her how long you've known.

3. Tell her how you feel, in graphic detail. Describe your true pain.

4. Fess up to all ulterior motives, until now. That now, you see the best way to handle this matter is to face her, and confront her directly with the information you have (rather than conduct covert activities).

5. Ask her, at this moment, where does she honestly stand with regards to your marriage?

6. Ask her directly - has she already decided she wants a divorce?

7. No matter how you like or dislike her answers, admit to her that you had no choice but to retain council. And you need some time alone to process this situation and get theriputic assistance.

 

Ask her to pack some things and leave immediately.

 

She will - because you've taken her by surprise. You've also taken your power back. None of this really makes any difference. She's gonna do what she's gonna do. It's possible she's not thinking straight because of the "affair fog."

 

You have a perfect right to have obtained council before notiffying here. You can file ahead of her. That doesn't mean you have to have her served. Ya get me.

 

Once she leaves, you need to consult Marriage Builders. And lose your current MC. Trust needs to be rebuild. She is distrustful - you are tricky. Neither are honest. Fix your side now.

 

I think you need an IC that sees you, and then begins to invite her in for MC, if you wish. That's one alternative strategy.

[carhill]

OP, IMO, the above suggested path has merit, but I'll add the following cautions:

 

Be sure about which path you want to choose legally. Your jurisdiction allows for both fault and no-fault. The specifics of the paths are different. Your lawyer can advise you.

 

Be mindful that, once you've disclosed, your joint liquid assets become more vulnerable prior to filing and serving. In our jurisdiction, filing and serving are contemporaneous. The lawsuit has no standing unless and until served upon the respondent. Once served, there are legal prohibitions wrt joint assets/debts/etc. Prior to this point, you are married and equally able to manage/dispose/transfer joint assets.

 

I recall, as one example, going to the bank with a MW one time and observing her withdraw $5K from their joint account before 'leaving' (not with me). She was having an affair with another man.

 

My personal experience has been, both with MW's and in my own M, that once a woman has disconnected from the M emotionally and has invested over a long period of time with another man, especially sexually (unclear to what extent in this situation), the process of recovering that M is daunting. It's possible, to be sure. There are a few M's on LS which have recovered from female affairs, but none I know which were long-term and sexual. Those which have recovered have done so over an equally long period of time, often much longer than that of the affair. If both partners are willing, it's possible.

 

I wish you well.

[Yasuandio]

Can't argue with Carhill.

 

You can always say, guilt free, "She left you no other choice."

 

I tend to lean towards the good faith option. But in all honesty, I always get screwed with that position.

 

If service is necessary to protect your interests, per Carhill, then ask my questions immediately after service. Of course, why not begin the discussion apriori, before the server is scheduled? You could easily arrange ample time to ask aformentioned questions, as well as explain the legal urgency to respond - and prepare her for such (e.g., she left you with no other choice. You have to protect yourself and your children in such a triangle).

 

Whatta ya think?

[Saul Goodman]

Another very long post. Sorry.

 

At least you know. However, you did not have to be burdoned with a secret for weeks. That was your choice in the "masterplan" you have construsted.

Yes. I know. I can live with that.

 

IMO, your Masterplan is no more than a HUGE "Got Cha" Game. I feel certain that this may not be the first time you've engaged in such gaminess. I am not defending you wife's conduct, but, I urge you to factor in where YOU MAY NOT have been addressing her emotional needs (see Marriage Builder website), and visa versa, before you spring this rat-trap.

I can see it as a twisted game I suppose. Although I can't say that I am having fun, nor enjoying typing it up for all to see. I could say that the end justifies the means, but I don't believe that to be entirely true.

 

I am aware that the marriage isn't and wasn't perfect. Ultimately MC has made it quite clear that neither of us have done the best job that we can. Although it is in my personal opinion that she has already checked out beyond all reach. Hence, the extremity of what I am doing.

 

Let me ask you Saul, have you ever done anything similiar to this before? Are you typically kind of sneeky? Do you have a pattern of playing the "Got Cha" game?

No. That's why I came here for advice. I have no experience in the area of sneakiness. If I had prior experience, I wouldn't have bothered asking for any tips. The only reason that I had such a solid start was because I was receiving help from a close friend who knew what he was talking about.

 

Did it ever occur to you that your wife is sick of the "Got Cha" routine, and left the evidence where you could find it? Is it possible you are being played?

You are suggesting that the player that is playing the player, is being played? Damned if I know. I suppose I'll get her opinion soon enough.

 

1. Tell her what you know.

2. Tell her how long you've known.

3. Tell her how you feel, in graphic detail. Describe your true pain.

4. Fess up to all ulterior motives, until now. That now, you see the best way to handle this matter is to face her, and confront her directly with the information you have (rather than conduct covert activities).

5. Ask her, at this moment, where does she honestly stand with regards to your marriage?

6. Ask her directly - has she already decided she wants a divorce?

7. No matter how you like or dislike her answers, admit to her that you had no choice but to retain council. And you need some time alone to process this situation and get theriputic assistance.

I'll keep this in mind. But if she is capable of her convoluted plot (yeah yeah, hypocritical of me), I honestly have doubts that she will care much. She seems very cold to me now.

 

Be sure about which path you want to choose legally. Your jurisdiction allows for both fault and no-fault. The specifics of the paths are different. Your lawyer can advise you.

 

Be mindful that, once you've disclosed, your joint liquid assets become more vulnerable prior to filing and serving. In our jurisdiction, filing and serving are contemporaneous. The lawsuit has no standing unless and until served upon the respondent. Once served, there are legal prohibitions wrt joint assets/debts/etc. Prior to this point, you are married and equally able to manage/dispose/transfer joint assets.

One reason that I specifically chose to hold back till the 12th, was because some of the advice of my lawyer touched heavily on this area. But you bring up some good points, carhill.

 

I tend to lean towards the good faith option. But in all honesty, I always get screwed with that position.

I agree. You see, I initially planned on confronting her immediately, similarly in line to your own advice, Y. This plan didn't suddenly pop into my head as the most logical solution. It was the fact that a close friend of mine (the one mentioned earlier) who went through a similar ordeal, tried being open, rational, and reasonable about it. He ended up getting completely destroyed. So one less noble motivation for what I am doing, is the fear that I could end up like him.

 

I concur that what I am doing isn't healthy for anyone. But if I believed that there was a chance of reconciliation, or an amiable divorce, I wouldn't have gone through with it.

[Saul Goodman]

Let's turn it back around the way it was before I twisted it. Do you love your wife? If she immediately came to her senses, would you was your family to stay intact? If so, you are limiting that chance with your provocitive plan. The entrapment is so deep-seatedly ornate and caculated, that I would wonder if either of you could ever get over the drama of it.

I actually realised that I missed this part. Good points raised here.

 

I do love my wife and I would love the family to stay together. No, I don't want to attempt reconciliation. I would've spoken to her immediately if I wanted reconciliation. But I will acknowledge one point that was made earlier in the thread: I don't know how I will feel in the future.

 

I said that I had hopes that she would "snap out of it" before. But they're a fool's hope in my opinion. Keeping things amiable for the sake of our kids is all I can hope for. I know, it is a pretty bleak view.

 

I think that I have reached the point where I know that our relationship is dead.

[imagine]

I would not share before I exposed. This gives her a heads up to "prepare" friends for the truth.

 

The problems that you are experiencing now will not necessarily go away in another marriage. Use her to fix you.

 

However, regarding divorce, do not make rapid decisions -this is your family and your wife.

[imagine]

Responding to Trimmer...

 

"Make up your mind if you want to win her back or get revenge. Tell your kids only if you are fighting for her."

 

Can you explain your rationale behind this advice? I'm not saying there isn't any, I just want to understand your thought process.

 

This comment was to respond as a parent to your children. Infidelity is wrong, they must not accept that this is a normal situation.

 

Revenge is also incorrect, they must not be told that this is the reason for contention.

 

To Saul...

Reconsider immediate divorce. Can you hold out for three months?

[carhill]

From the MA law library web site:

 

 

'What happens after you file:

After you file the above documents to the Court, you will be issued a "Summons". This summons and a copy of the Complaint MUST be forwarded or given to the Sheriff or Constable in the County where the Defendant lives. These papers will be "served" on the defendant by the sheriff's department. After the sheriff "serves" these papers, they will either forward to you, as plaintiff, or the Court the ORIGINAL SUMMONS with a "Return of Service" on the back of the Summons. This means that the sheriff has served the defendant a copy of the divorce papers. If you receive this original summons from the Sheriff's Department with the back of the summons filled out by the Sheriff, then you MUST file this with the Court. This is "proof to the Court" that the Defendant has been served.

The Defendant has 20 days in which to Answer your Complaint for Divorce. The Defendant could either

-File an Answer with the Court. If the Defendant chooses to file an Answer then you could file motions for temporary relief. At that time, the Court can address issues such as temporary custody, support, visitation, and temporary property issues during your motions for temporary relief. The Court can also schedule Pre-Trial hearings, or other types of hearings. However, when you are filing a no fault divorce (otherwise known as a 1B divorce), you MUST wait 6 months from the date of filing to get a final trial Date.'

 

 

So, even if OP filed today, this morning, and his wife filed a legal response, there would be no final trial date (where the decree is entered) until six months from today. This is similar to Cali's 'cooling off' period. In a divorce where children and lawyers are involved, it's extremely unlikely that the D will happen in six months, even if everyone is pleasant and amicable. Our D took 18 months, mainly due to procedural errors (our fault).

 

 

 

My perspective is tempered by the reality that the OP's wife has been having an affair for 18 months and has been deceiving the OP in MC for about a year. I would bet that she's also been working on an exit strategy or already has one in place. Having been through it, I learned a lot about how women operate. When divorced male friends shared stories in the past, I used to take them with a grain of salt. Not anymore.

[Yasuandio]

Carhill, how can Saul pull this off without appearing like a skeeming, gamey, man?

 

I mean he has also been a fraud in MC. Doesn't look really good to the judge, how can you expect MC to have an effect if your heart is not in it? That is where the truth should have been brought up. This demonstrates Saul's bad faith.

 

He has worked diligently to entrap her.

 

Such covert activities over this long a period of time could actually stimulate sympathy towards her. Maybe he pushed her away? I don't mean any of this literally, I'm just spining it.

 

Then, my other point, he still loves her. Well - this does not look like love. This looks like she lives with a PI. How is she gonna react when she finds out the efforts and lengths Saul has gone to?

 

I say always listen to Carhill, he has done the reseach. Perhaps Mr. Carhill can think of a way to temper the procedures so you don't look so bad yourself.

[Binster]

As soon as you drop the papers on her inform the other guys wife,

it's going to show her what his real intentions are.

[SlevinKalebra]

Carhill, how can Saul pull this off without appearing like a skeeming, gamey, man?

 

He has worked diligently to entrap her.

 

Such covert activities over this long a period of time could actually stimulate sympathy towards her..

 

Yes in some ways, BUT, It also depends if you are in a no fault state. If you are then this is very good and establishing a base for your case will be a real advantage for your case. If not, it looks like you have all the info you need to decide that it's time. You are playing it very smart by not showing your hand keep that up. When you drop the hammer drop it completely, tie everything up fast and neat then drop it all at once (ie get finances and everything else in line and in one fell swoop close the knot).

If you live in a no fault state you need to wrap it up fast. If you keep digging it will look bad for you. Don't bring up more info than absolutely necessary. Instead take a day off tie up all the loose ends and at the end of the day you are free.

Regarding the kids do not rely on any bad treatment of you to give you a toehold of custody. The judge will see this as vindictiveness and will hurt you.

Good luck

[carhill]

Carhill, how can Saul pull this off without appearing like a skeeming, gamey, man?

I learned this from women:

 

Serve first, explain later. My exW took all kinds of unilateral actions, some which were difficult and time-consuming for me to rectify, and she merely stated 'I did what I had to do'. That's it. Overall, we had an amicable divorce.

 

The OP is taking unilateral action. His lawyer, if competent, will advise him as to what specific actions he can legally take and what the consequences may be for actions which are or aren't necessarily proper or legal. That's what lawyers do. If the OP keeps things business-like and doesn't allow himself to be embroiled in drama, he can proceed to assert his rights under the law. What his wife does is completely outside of his control. Trust me, I know more about that subject than I ever wanted to.

 

Given that his wife is currently in an affair and has been lying in MC, she has demonstrated a complete re-write of the M. IMO, there is nothing that the OP could do that wouldn't be perceived by her to be a negative action. No doubt everyone knows what a douche he is and how their marital problems are all his fault. That's networking skill, and women are expert at it. His job, if there is to be any equity or even a chance for reconciliation, is to level the playing field. That does not happen by being 'nice'.

 

OP, how does your lawyer feel about a post-nuptial agreement?

 

Oh, and I agree about not focusing on the affair. Focus instead on the M not working out. Irreconcilable differences. This presumes you are not going for a fault divorce.

Edited August 8, 2011 by carhill

[Yasuandio]

I take back my concerns of "perceptions" of your actions. I was just thinking down the line - how wife mighty use to advantage, and/or how such could eradicate the chances of reconilation (since you said you still want your family together.

 

I totally get it, Carhill, and am in full agreement.

 

If she were not doing what she is doing, (or at least changed courses during MC), then OP would not have to resort to being "sneeky" in

collecting the covert material in the first place.

 

In essense, she had to do what she had to do, and he had to do what he had to do. Fair enough.

 

(Perhaps she may hopfully know the story of Saul's friend that got hammered, then she would fully understand).

[Saul Goodman]

The problems that you are experiencing now will not necessarily go away in another marriage. Use her to fix you.

Yeah. MC has been useful in that regard. The thing about my wife, is that she has always been the introverted type. Her methodology has always been "Don't worry about it, I'll handle this in my own way". It's a case where I was unaware that I could've been a better spouse.

 

Revenge is also incorrect, they must not be told that this is the reason for contention.

It's not like I am angry or anything. It's mostly that I believe that some pragmatism will be needed to move forward. I think that some other posters raised similar ideas.

 

So, even if OP filed today, this morning, and his wife filed a legal response, there would be no final trial date (where the decree is entered) until six months from today. This is similar to Cali's 'cooling off' period. In a divorce where children and lawyers are involved, it's extremely unlikely that the D will happen in six months, even if everyone is pleasant and amicable. Our D took 18 months, mainly due to procedural errors (our fault).

Yes. That's another thing that's been on my mind. A lot can happen during that time. What was your experience there, carhill? Or anyone else?

 

As soon as you drop the papers on her inform the other guys wife,

it's going to show her what his real intentions are.

When all is said and done, I will.

 

OP, how does your lawyer feel about a post-nuptial agreement?

I brought it up with him. It will really depend on the legal actions that my wife takes. At the moment, it's just one possible option and nothing more.

 

Oh, and my lawyer does recommend a no-fault divorce.

 

(Perhaps she may hopfully know the story of Saul's friend that got hammered, then she would fully understand).

Years down the line maybe. Edited August 9, 2011 by Saul Goodman

[carhill]

What was your experience there, carhill?

My data point is unique, as I was doing end of life care for my mom while the D was proceeding. TBH, I didn't have the stomach to assert myself when I saw the procedural errors being made, so I just let them go and let the D drag on, finally going to court with her and getting things squared away by doing mediation. What a waste of time prior. It was so simple. Go over the details, agree, they draw up the settlement agreement, I have my lawyer look it over and we sign and file and done.

 

Remember, though, neither of us had any interest in reconciling. I certainly wasn't pining away and she already had a live-in boyfriend before that last spurt (mediation/MSA/filing) occurred. Very different than your deal.

 

Once step at a time. Remember, filing for divorce in no way impels divorce. It's an action, kind of like her affair is an action. See, you're still married, right? And you will be, until that final judgment is filed and approved by the court. Even then, that only dissolves your legal partnership. No authority on earth can keep you from loving each other and continuing or reuniting as a couple. Right now though, her actions have obviated healthy couple status. You're recognizing that officially. It works

[Yasuandio]

OK, Houston, I guess it's countdown time. I certainly hope this plan gives you the best possible result. My fingers are crossed. Will stay tuned-in for the lift-off. Good Luck!

[Saul Goodman]

Remember, though, neither of us had any interest in reconciling. I certainly wasn't pining away and she already had a live-in boyfriend before that last spurt (mediation/MSA/filing) occurred. Very different than your deal.

 

Once step at a time. Remember, filing for divorce in no way impels divorce. It's an action, kind of like her affair is an action. See, you're still married, right? And you will be, until that final judgment is filed and approved by the court. Even then, that only dissolves your legal partnership. No authority on earth can keep you from loving each other and continuing or reuniting as a couple. Right now though, her actions have obviated healthy couple status. You're recognizing that officially. It works

 

Appreciate your perspective. I'll keep it in mind.

 

OK, Houston, I guess it's countdown time. I certainly hope this plan gives you the best possible result. My fingers are crossed. Will stay tuned-in for the lift-off. Good Luck!

 

Heh, you're a quirky one. Thank you.

 

Okay, I'll be gone for a while. I've learnt a lot from here.