25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[knitwit]

really? are you his wife? how do you know exactly what she needs?

 

primary tenet after infidelity - nope - generally is to move towards rebuilding trust... and then moving toward forgiveness...

 

i'd love to see your evidence that it works best YOUR way...

 

no contact does not even ALWAYS insure the mind is invested in repairing a M... and the damage the cheater has caused. IF a spouse still thinks about their affair person - to the point of taking up space within their mind - then that is still NC - but still NOT fair to the marriage.

 

i don't see your words holding the merit you want it to - there are MANY ways of cheating - and repairing the damage caused.

 

BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A HEALTHY MARRIAGE GET TO THAT PLACE WHEN ONE SPOUSE REFUSES THE EFFORTS OF THE CHEATER TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE THEY CAUSED - BY HOLDING THAT POWER OVER THE CHEATER'S HEAD FOR SHAME AND GUILT - BY NOT BEING WILLING TO FORGIVE AND MOVE TO A BETTER PLACE IN THE MARRIAGE.

 

You see it your way. That's cool.

 

I see his wife differently. She had issues to start with.

 

Then she got big knock-out punch in the face with the infidelity.

 

Then, each day he goes to work, or has a great success with his business, or has another business meeting/dinner/whatever- this is akin for her as another smack across the face. Maybe not as strong as the initial knock-down, but surely strong enough to set her back.

 

So I don't see her an intentionaly withholding, or not moving on. In fact, Nick himself has seen some movement.

 

I think it is unrealistic to think that she is going to move forward until she is fairly certain that she is not to get smacked down or punched out. Nick can do as many good things as he can, but if can't protect her and ensure that she is safe with him, it is not going to help.

 

Right tool, right plan.

 

Simplistic? Sure, but this is how I see it.

[2sunny]

You will get over the hurt and guilt and shame when you are truly dedicated to helping her heal. You have the right idea but the wrong tools and plan. Get the right tools and plan and I think you will have a great outcome.

 

that's your promise? wow, cool!!! i suppose helping her heal - means sacrificing anything that may make him happy - to make damn sure she gets happy - only to realize she still may not be happy... hmmmm :rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

 

[

B]You have to do whatever it takes to help your wife get past this[/b] first and ongoing wound. It is ongoing because of the job, and because you insist on making her contribution to the healing equal at this point. Stop that.

 

really - HE can make her get past this? hasn't looked like it in 25 years... hmmm

 

her issues seem to stem from BEFORE they were married! how can he make THAT magically disappear - by quitting his job?

 

you need to get your facts straight... you are way off base for this unusual set of circumstances.

 

HE can't MAKE her get happy when she refuses to...

[2sunny]

Nick - has your wife ever point blank stated that her boundary includes you quitting that job?

[knitwit]

that's your promise? wow, cool!!! i suppose helping her heal - means sacrificing anything that may make him happy - to make damn sure she gets happy - only to realize she still may not be happy... hmmmm :rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

 

[

 

really - HE can make her get past this? hasn't looked like it in 25 years... hmmm

 

her issues seem to stem from BEFORE they were married! how can he make THAT magically disappear - by quitting his job?

 

you need to get your facts straight... you are way off base for this unusual set of circumstances.

 

HE can't MAKE her get happy when she refuses to...

 

Like I said, we have different perspectives on the situation. To me, helping her heal is his way out of the guilt and shame. You call it sacrifice, I don't see it that way. It means putting his attention on her needs, and getting past step one.

 

I don't believe it is realistic to think that she can put in what he expects right now due to the infidelity. That is my belief. You seem to believe that is more intentional on her end. Different points of view.

 

It's true, he might put everything he has into it, and she still might not heal. It's a possible outcome.

 

But its up to Nick on whether he wants to make that attempt. Since he posts that he still wants to try , he still loves his wife, he still sees the wondeful woman he married and wants to find a way back into that relationship, I post my suggestions.

[NickFeek]

Nick, not all sins are equal.

 

Some things you do will hurt her more than others.

 

The OW at work thing is HUGE. HUGE!!!

 

It is unrealistic to think that she is going to get over the infidelity when she knows you have either some contact or the possibility of contact with the OW every day you go into work. It sets the clock back to zero on a very frequent basis.

 

I am saying this because it is Step 1 for getting over any serious break-up, affair or not, and it is a HUGE step 1 for infidelity reconcilation.

 

Your wife has to get to a healthier place before she can help you, or even really help herself. This is just reality. You can see that she is still all over the place! You have to help her, and it does have to be you going first, if it is going to happen at all.

 

I see that you are trying! But I think that you are missing your target. It is like trying to get a plant healthy by putting it in an oxygen chamber, when what the plant needs is carbon dioxide.

 

I am not trying to be a smart-ass, but obviously what you guys are trying is not working.

 

There's a lot of advice on here to just throw in the towel. That is one option.

 

I took a look at your post and told you what I saw as likely barriers to your success. I am trying to show you another option. But like I said, these are just one stranger's words on an interet, offering up another perspective.

 

I do understand that, and I have read this in several sources. I am seriously struggling with how to rectify this. The business we started is a passion for all of us, and although I'd be perfectly fine participating in the business without the OW, she has every right to be there as well. But hear me out on this, and tell me if this changes anything even slightly.

 

I have seen the OW exactly four times in the last year, all in business settings. The nature of our business is such that we can conduct most of it either online or in smaller groups that do not need to include all of us. There have been a good 5-10 other events I did not attend, though it would have been better for my coworkers for me to have been there. And I have not attended one board meeting in the last year. I have given up projects/work that others were able to cover for me on, so I could further minimize my contact with her. It's not an office where we're in the same building or on the same floor five days a week. Far from it.

 

I know in her eyes & yours (and others) this is still not enough. And I understand why. But until the business emerges from the cocoon, so to speak, I will need to stick around. I will continue to do as much remotely as possible, and to give up every project I possibly can.

[NickFeek]

Nick - has your wife ever point blank stated that her boundary includes you quitting that job?

 

No. She has said A. she could never ask me to do that because she knows how much it means to me; B. she doesn't even want me to quit because she knows I will be more miserable & rudderless, and that will not help our marriage; C. she does not want to be the person who forced me out of something I helped create because she's afraid I'll resent it even if I say I won't; but D. I can't expect to be involved in the company & not have it affect her.

 

I agree with all of this, and appreciate her even-handedness. I have been hoping as things progress and as I show her after each business thing that nothing bad like that will ever happen again, and as time passes, that the company involvement will hurt less & less. So far that's not the case, but it hasn't been all that long I guess.

[2sunny]

Like I said, we have different perspectives on the situation. To me, helping her heal is his way out of the guilt and shame. You call it sacrifice, I don't see it that way. It means putting his attention on her needs, and getting past step one.

 

I don't believe it is realistic to think that she can put in what he expects right now due to the infidelity. That is my belief. You seem to believe that is more intentional on her end. Different points of view.

 

It's true, he might put everything he has into it, and she still might not heal. It's a possible outcome.

 

But its up to Nick on whether he wants to make that attempt. Since he posts that he still wants to try , he still loves his wife, he still sees the wondeful woman he married and wants to find a way back into that relationship, I post my suggestions.

 

Have you read all 1480 posts here? Because it looks like you're not recognizing Nicks efforts to repair the damage he caused... And you're not seeing the odd dynamics of an unhealthy M... Before the A even... Not that it justifies cheating...as Nick has admitted.

 

Do you know marriages that take 2 years to have sex AFTER they are married? That's SO not the norm!

 

And your approach looks like he hasn't done work on considering her feelings - I believe he has... More than most husbands would.

[NickFeek]

Like I said, we have different perspectives on the situation. To me, helping her heal is his way out of the guilt and shame. You call it sacrifice, I don't see it that way. It means putting his attention on her needs, and getting past step one.

 

I don't believe it is realistic to think that she can put in what he expects right now due to the infidelity. That is my belief. You seem to believe that is more intentional on her end. Different points of view.

 

It's true, he might put everything he has into it, and she still might not heal. It's a possible outcome.

 

But its up to Nick on whether he wants to make that attempt. Since he posts that he still wants to try , he still loves his wife, he still sees the wondeful woman he married and wants to find a way back into that relationship, I post my suggestions.

 

The discussion you two are having might be more helpful than most of the individual posts here!

 

On the whole I agree with much of what 2sunny says, though not all. On the whole I see what you are saying, knitwit, though agree with only some of it.

 

I do agree that she's still in a place where she's incapable of doing the work that needs doing. I don't think that means I should be doing the lion's share. I also don't think that means her frequently & lengthily shutting down is acceptable. It's often not one silent day but an entire silent week or more. There has to be a give & take or this won't work no matter what I give up.

 

I just can't see this as choose her or choose the company. I believe they can coexist, and that if I can show her what kind of husband I can be, and reestablish trust, the company will become less & less of an issue. I have been told POINT BLANK by both her and the therapist (who IS an expert in MC, by the way, and HAS suggested I give up the company) that I need to stop thinking of her excessive work hours & preoccupation with work day & night as a threat to me, as her choosing work over me. I HAVE done that to fairly good success. So my contention is, if I'm making a strong & good faith effort to minimize contact with the OW, she should also not see it as me choosing the company over her. Frankly I've done slightly more work in trying to repair this marriage than she has, and my work hours (despite two jobs) do not come NEAR the hours she puts in. I reach out to her every day & night. I am here & available & open & listening & game to consider and try everything she suggest and/or says she needs or wants different. If she is not able to get to that point within a reasonable amount of time, what am I working/fighting for?

[knitwit]

I do understand that, and I have read this in several sources. I am seriously struggling with how to rectify this. The business we started is a passion for all of us, and although I'd be perfectly fine participating in the business without the OW, she has every right to be there as well. But hear me out on this, and tell me if this changes anything even slightly.

 

I have seen the OW exactly four times in the last year, all in business settings. The nature of our business is such that we can conduct most of it either online or in smaller groups that do not need to include all of us. There have been a good 5-10 other events I did not attend, though it would have been better for my coworkers for me to have been there. And I have not attended one board meeting in the last year. I have given up projects/work that others were able to cover for me on, so I could further minimize my contact with her. It's not an office where we're in the same building or on the same floor five days a week. Far from it.

 

I know in her eyes & yours (and others) this is still not enough. And I understand why. But until the business emerges from the cocoon, so to speak, I will need to stick around. I will continue to do as much remotely as possible, and to give up every project I possibly can.

 

I think the important question is, is it enough in her eyes? If she were honest and there wasn't a financial issue- what do you think she'd want?

 

When can you get out? How long? And can you have a plan with your wife so she is at least supported on a daily basis until you can get out?

 

There was a poster in the infidelity section- maybe it was Anne?- who had an affair in her office. She had a specialized job and it took a very long time for her to be able to find another one. In the meantime, she and her husband had very specific plans. He picked her up and dropped her off each day; sometimes they had lunch together. They tried to make sure that time was enjoy able for them both, so that they were actively building their bond during that time.

 

Work with her and find out what she thinks will help. If she has no ideas, then take the lead and start trying your own ideas. If they don't work, try something else, see what you can ferret out of her reactions.

 

Mostly though- if you sit down with her about this, you will validate her feelings about it.

 

She won't be hearing, "There is no contact, and she needs to bring more to the table before I am willing to sacrifice something so important to me and others".

 

Instead, she will hear, "I am working to get out of this situation. I am sorry I put us in this situation where you are hurt every day. Until we get out, I want to do whatever I can to make this bearable and for you to feel that you are safe." etc..

 

The former is a bit of gaslighting, as if you were saying "I am doing everythign I can!!!!" The latter is supportive, kind, and it is this sort of constant, steady attention that will help her heal.

 

And while there is no guarantee she will heal, you can see how the liklihood is much greater in the supportive scenario.

 

And hey, maybe you ARE doing this kind of thing frequently. You clearly have identified ways to lessen your involvement, and you have made sacrifices. I am just going by that one post.

 

This is it for me tonight. I hope you and your wife have a great evening. If the last weeks have been hard, hopefully tonight you get a chance to settle down a bit together.

[NickFeek]

I think the important question is, is it enough in her eyes? If she were honest and there wasn't a financial issue- what do you think she'd want?

 

When can you get out? How long? And can you have a plan with your wife so she is at least supported on a daily basis until you can get out?

 

There was a poster in the infidelity section- maybe it was Anne?- who had an affair in her office. She had a specialized job and it took a very long time for her to be able to find another one. In the meantime, she and her husband had very specific plans. He picked her up and dropped her off each day; sometimes they had lunch together. They tried to make sure that time was enjoy able for them both, so that they were actively building their bond during that time.

 

Work with her and find out what she thinks will help. If she has no ideas, then take the lead and start trying your own ideas. If they don't work, try something else, see what you can ferret out of her reactions.

 

Mostly though- if you sit down with her about this, you will validate her feelings about it.

 

She won't be hearing, "There is no contact, and she needs to bring more to the table before I am willing to sacrifice something so important to me and others".

 

Instead, she will hear, "I am working to get out of this situation. I am sorry I put us in this situation where you are hurt every day. Until we get out, I want to do whatever I can to make this bearable and for you to feel that you are safe." etc..

 

The former is a bit of gaslighting, as if you were saying "I am doing everythign I can!!!!" The latter is supportive, kind, and it is this sort of constant, steady attention that will help her heal.

 

And while there is no guarantee she will heal, you can see how the liklihood is much greater in the supportive scenario.

 

And hey, maybe you ARE doing this kind of thing frequently. You clearly have identified ways to lessen your involvement, and you have made sacrifices. I am just going by that one post.

 

This is it for me tonight. I hope you and your wife have a great evening. If the last weeks have been hard, hopefully tonight you get a chance to settle down a bit together.

 

This all makes a lot of sense. And she did say two weeks ago that one of the problems she's had with my continued involvement is that I have been deciding what to participate in or not without consulting her. I was trying to find a way pull back as much as possible while also shielding her from any contact or news, and the result was she felt shut out of the process.

 

We've now agreed that I will discuss my work with her more openly, and bring her into the process. This way she'll also know the exact nature of everything we're doing.

 

I wish we could have that kind of time, but her schedule and the kids' schedule leave no breathing room. I have pulled back to the point where I'm out at night once a week or less, so I can be more available at home. It's just a very difficult situation for us to have any time to reconnect. I will say she just suggested we go away for a weekend, the first time SHE has made this suggestion in a really long time.

 

Goodnight to you too. I'm sure you need a break from all of this!

[2sunny]

you still need a commitment from your W - whether or not she's in to participating on a level where she moves in a positive direction - or if she expects she will stand firm in her anger and fear.

 

without a clear understanding of exactly how she intends to participate - you are merely in this M alone...

 

exactly what are YOUR intentions? THAT is the question to ask - and if/when she answers... the next question may be - how do YOU expect to get to your goal of what YOU say YOU need?

 

THAT may tell you how you can expect to be a part of her plan - or if she's just in this world to work and leave you out of her equation.

 

IF she intends to leave you out of her life - like she did intentionally the other night - it's only fair to ask her to be honest about what she intends.

[ThreeLegDog]

So my contention is, if I'm making a strong & good faith effort to minimize contact with the OW, she should also not see it as me choosing the company over her. Frankly I've done slightly more work in trying to repair this marriage than she has, and my work hours (despite two jobs) do not come NEAR the hours she puts in. I reach out to her every day & night. I am here & available & open & listening & game to consider and try everything she suggest and/or says she needs or wants different. If she is not able to get to that point within a reasonable amount of time, what am I working/fighting for?

 

This is so logical and analytical that my brain hurts, and I'm a logical and analytical kind of guy. I'm pretty sure that you will have to try another approach where feelings are concerned.

 

If it were me, and my business was negatively affecting the happiness of the woman that I loved... that business would be history.

[NickFeek]

This is so logical and analytical that my brain hurts, and I'm a logical and analytical kind of guy. I'm pretty sure that you will have to try another approach where feelings are concerned.

 

If it were me, and my business was negatively affecting the happiness of the woman that I loved... that business would be history.

 

Well good for you. But it's not you and you are not in my situation. If it were that cut and dry I would have given it up last year. It's not. Once again I really feel like people who see this as simple black and white should either read all the facts or at least post a disclaimer saying their opinion is based on partial information.

[NickFeek]

you still need a commitment from your W - whether or not she's in to participating on a level where she moves in a positive direction - or if she expects she will stand firm in her anger and fear.

 

without a clear understanding of exactly how she intends to participate - you are merely in this M alone...

 

exactly what are YOUR intentions? THAT is the question to ask - and if/when she answers... the next question may be - how do YOU expect to get to your goal of what YOU say YOU need?

 

THAT may tell you how you can expect to be a part of her plan - or if she's just in this world to work and leave you out of her equation.

 

IF she intends to leave you out of her life - like she did intentionally the other night - it's only fair to ask her to be honest about what she intends.

 

The next conversation we have is going to lay everything out in concrete terms. After Tuesday night I feel like she's ready for that, both to emotionally handle it and to take it seriously.

[2sunny]

The next conversation we have is going to lay everything out in concrete terms. After Tuesday night I feel like she's ready for that, both to emotionally handle it and to take it seriously.

 

can you be specific...the way you word this is oozing an elusive feel/approach.

 

next convo - when? when do you expect to talk with the woman you live with? has she told you she would discuss it before you two go into counseling tomorrow? or is she even going? or is she going alone? you haven't stated what has happened with that appt...

 

lay everything out in concrete terms?

 

what does THAT mean? lay it out how? will there be a plan of ACTION? what is a concrete term?that means absolutely nothing to me except empty words - it should feel the same to you at this point as well... you need to know EXACTLY what action will happen to GET TO the targeted goal!!!

 

emotionally handle it and take it seriously?

 

does it mean she hasn't been taking it seriously? maybe - maybe not... we have evidence that it's VERY low on her priority list... has she bumped it at ALL to TOP priority? if not - no need to rush to think so.

 

let her go tomorrow on her own. THAT alone may tell you whether or not she intends to make some effort instead of being a COMPLETE roadblock to this recovery!

 

call the counselor - tell a few details about what happened - say you EXPECT HER to make the effort for a while - to take the lead instead of you - and IF she doesn't - that's YOUR answer.

 

you really need her to see the counselor alone for a while anyway.

 

she has major things to tackle - things you can't fix for her - get out of the way and see what she's going to bring to the table.

[2sunny]

did you read the book the four agreements?

 

use words that equal action - then evidence shows no lie... has your W read it?

 

there is also an answer in a person's lack of words too - it means you should not expect to get whatyou have asked for... have you considered she has answered you in this silence?

[Floridaman]

Originally Posted by ThreeLegDog

 

This is so logical and analytical that my brain hurts, and I'm a logical and analytical kind of guy. I'm pretty sure that you will have to try another approach where feelings are concerned.

 

If it were me, and my business was negatively affecting the happiness of the woman that I loved... that business would be history.

Well good for you. But it's not you and you are not in my situation.

If it were that cut and dry I would have given it up last year. It's not.

 

Once again I really feel like people who see this as simple black and white should either read all the facts or at least post a disclaimer saying their opinion is based on partial information.

You're right, Nick.

It's like some cheer for guys like us to "get out of" our relationships and "just leave" our spouses.

It's not that simple, and in my case, we don't have kids, so should be easier, right?

She and I made promises to each other. My parents divorced when I was 5. I never see divorce as an option.

[NickFeek]

can you be specific...the way you word this is oozing an elusive feel/approach.

 

next convo - when? when do you expect to talk with the woman you live with? has she told you she would discuss it before you two go into counseling tomorrow? or is she even going? or is she going alone? you haven't stated what has happened with that appt...

 

lay everything out in concrete terms?

 

what does THAT mean? lay it out how? will there be a plan of ACTION? what is a concrete term?that means absolutely nothing to me except empty words - it should feel the same to you at this point as well... you need to know EXACTLY what action will happen to GET TO the targeted goal!!!

 

emotionally handle it and take it seriously?

 

does it mean she hasn't been taking it seriously? maybe - maybe not... we have evidence that it's VERY low on her priority list... has she bumped it at ALL to TOP priority? if not - no need to rush to think so.

 

let her go tomorrow on her own. THAT alone may tell you whether or not she intends to make some effort instead of being a COMPLETE roadblock to this recovery!

 

call the counselor - tell a few details about what happened - say you EXPECT HER to make the effort for a while - to take the lead instead of you - and IF she doesn't - that's YOUR answer.

 

you really need her to see the counselor alone for a while anyway.

 

she has major things to tackle - things you can't fix for her - get out of the way and see what she's going to bring to the table.

 

I don't intend to be oozy. It's just my way of speaking. I do mean that things will need to be specific. And by "lay it out" I mean go back to our list and/or make another list, and set up a schedule for everything. BUT even before that, we need to agree on what we both need to work on. If we can get to an agreement, we can take the action steps. If we can't even get there, I'd have to guess we are done as a couple.

 

She is unable to go to the session. We will be speaking this weekend at home. I'm going to the session anyway. She would much rather be there with me - doesn't like the thought of me talking to the doctor alone. But I told her I NEED to go. I'm going to run this week's events by her & get her interpretation, as well as some action advice. I also told my wife if ever she needed to go alone, I'd be thrilled, and that in fact I advocate it.

 

I think she's been unable to handle thinking beyond the infidelity, and as frustrating as it's been I understand that. Now that she popped her volcano, I think she's at a better place - more willing to consider what I've been saying. I also think her need to focus on the infidelity has prevented her from seriously considering other things. So that's what I meant by "take it seriously".

[NickFeek]

You're right, Nick.

It's like some cheer for guys like us to "get out of" our relationships and "just leave" our spouses.

It's not that simple, and in my case, we don't have kids, so should be easier, right?

She and I made promises to each other. My parents divorced when I was 5. I never see divorce as an option.

 

I'm with you on that. I've certainly considered leaving, as has my wife. But it's not the step I'd choose, and apparently not the one I'd desire even though I once thought I did. The kids are a huge factor, but not the only reason I want to stay. Doesn't mean divorce WON'T happen, just that I'm considering that the last option. I will know when I've done all I can, and when she's either done all she can or decided not to. We're not quite there yet, so I'm still going to work on this with all I have.

[findingnemo]

I see what you mean by withdrawing, and I can see how that's worked already. I withdrew for ONE DAY, and she very quickly became more solicitous & understanding. I need to stop chasing her & pleading with her to do the work. This approach should force the issue one way or another.

 

The only thing wrong with this approach is that I'm already hurting so badly. To withdraw with no sense of comfort is going to be even worse, and will be unsustainable for any stretch of time. Kids & career cannot take the place of deep one-on-one love for me. If they could we wouldn't be in this mess. We'd both have been content with what we had.

 

Exactly, Nick. It hurts when you keep chasing her and it hurts when you leave things as they are. At this point you have to pick what hurts less and what requires less effort from you. Normally, one would leave this kind of situation. But it is difficult when kids are involved.

 

Yes kids and career are not enough but you can't have the one-on-one you desire unless she changes. Maybe I'm missing something. With all that has been happening, it seems like she doesn't want to to do so. What is it that keeps you hoping she can or she will? Is it a feeling you have, a conviction?

 

Whatever it is, what you have been doing so far hasn't worked. I wish it had because you've worked so very hard. In order to continue trying to change things, you have to change tactics. If not withdrawal, what else can you do?

[2sunny]

so now she's missing two weeks of counseling in a row?

 

and at this critical juncture you turn a blind eye again?

 

let me guess - her work is in the way of acting upon repairing the M...

 

incredible!

 

i admire tolerance, compassion and patience - but your dose of it is killing attempts at getting things into action for forward movement.

 

she married the right guy - because you are somehow tolerant of accepting nothing from her.

 

i am very sad you treat yourself this way in allowing her to ignore this once again. she's consistent - i'll give her that.

 

 

how about if she just goes alone from here forward for a while? see what kind of effort she puts into getting herself in a better place. when she gets there - then come together with the therapist.

[trippi1432]

See but that's what gets me about these posts of yours. You are taking my acknowledgment of past bad behavior and using it as ammunition against any other argument I have about our mutual culpability in the state of our marriage, however it's weighed. {/quote]

 

And you are not doing the same thing to your wife...she told you in therapy that she did not agree to at first but is doing now...what is missing..and you are using that against her to comply to your wants and needs. Yes, you should both be working towards that..but you cannot force her to forgive and forget.

 

Not only have I been listening intently to what my wife feels she's missing or is unhappy with re my behavior, I have made changes of behavior, mind & heart in order to show her how sincere I am in improving our relationship. I grant that contact of any kind with the OW is still a big thorn, but considering the 99 other things I've done in the past six months alone, I can't agree that I've shown NO good faith or intent. I understand that she's stuck because of what I did, but knowing her better than anyone I can tell you that she's been stuck before for things related and UNrelated to me, and in every case she has just shoved it deeper down until it shut that part of her off.

 

If she shoves it deeper, it's because she cannot trust you, you haven't shown her that you can...and her righteous anger that perplexes you so, is because of the infidelity that you want so much to validate. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at page 2...and you can choose to ignore that and all other advice such as getting you out of your affair fog and enticing you to try again with your wife while others here told you to do what you are doing now....nothing good comes from forcing when you have offended someone....guilt/no...you have never show much in the form of remorse for what you did..so yes, in HER mind, the infidelity is paramount.

 

So, Nick..ignore me....I have no vested interest..lump me with those that disagree with you, as I now see that only agreeing with you and serving your purpose is the only thing that will get heard...those of us who see your wife's POV get that...it's not power...it's no different than the man who was crying out in therapy for 10 years to be heard.

 

In my book, we BOTH need to show good faith here. For any healthy relationship to be built, we BOTH need to come to the table.

 

You are both coming to the table...it's a screwed up world when that happens...because now you see how SHE sees you and how YOU see her...that is what you are both running from.

[Afishwithabike]

Nick - How much time would you say you and your wife spend together in an average week, just the two of you, no kids and nothing else to interrupt that time?

 

I also want to thank you for sharing so much of this personal journey with us. This thread is now at 100 pages. I've been reading it since you started it months ago! We often hear marital counseling recommended for this problem or that and your posts here give us a glimpse of those people in the trenches fighting for their marriages. MC is not an easy fix to marital problems.

[NickFeek]

Exactly, Nick. It hurts when you keep chasing her and it hurts when you leave things as they are. At this point you have to pick what hurts less and what requires less effort from you. Normally, one would leave this kind of situation. But it is difficult when kids are involved.

 

Yes kids and career are not enough but you can't have the one-on-one you desire unless she changes. Maybe I'm missing something. With all that has been happening, it seems like she doesn't want to to do so. What is it that keeps you hoping she can or she will? Is it a feeling you have, a conviction?

 

Whatever it is, what you have been doing so far hasn't worked. I wish it had because you've worked so very hard. In order to continue trying to change things, you have to change tactics. If not withdrawal, what else can you do?

 

You ask great questions.

 

I'm not concerned about what takes more or less effort. The question REALLY IS Is her door open enough for my efforts to make any difference. All evidence seems to say no. So on one level it's impossible for me to explain why I keep hoping, except that I know her in 50 other ways & I love her for all the rest of who she is. I also have had faith (until this week) that when things got most dire she would do whatever it takes to make us right. I told her on Tuesday night that it's ironic that she's the more religious person, but I seem to have more hope & faith & capacity to forgive than she does. Can't tell you how much it hurts right now.

 

I think I may have one more tactic up my sleeve. But I'm not even sure about that. It really feels painfully over, and I think it will until she ever decides to reverse course.

[NickFeek]

so now she's missing two weeks of counseling in a row?

 

and at this critical juncture you turn a blind eye again?

 

let me guess - her work is in the way of acting upon repairing the M...

 

incredible!

 

i admire tolerance, compassion and patience - but your dose of it is killing attempts at getting things into action for forward movement.

 

she married the right guy - because you are somehow tolerant of accepting nothing from her.

 

i am very sad you treat yourself this way in allowing her to ignore this once again. she's consistent - i'll give her that.

 

 

how about if she just goes alone from here forward for a while? see what kind of effort she puts into getting herself in a better place. when she gets there - then come together with the therapist.

 

Oh believe me I am very upset. I told her this morning how upset I am, and her answer was she doesn't think it's a good idea for me to go by myself. I said I'm going because I'm hurting badly & I need help, and I would never use a solo session to undermine what we're trying to do. She said "How would you feel if I went alone?" I said "I TOLD YOU how I'd feel on the phone yesterday, which is I would be thrilled, and I would feel good that you were able to get the help you need." THEN I said how much it hurts, and she said, "The why are you bothering to try?" I said "If you have to keep asking that then maybe you've already made up your mind. You will never learn." And I left for work.

 

The odds of her doing individual therapy even with this doctor are slim to none. As much as I understand certain meeting schedulings are out of her hands, it boggles the mind that on this week of all weeks, and after missing last week, she thinks a simple apology will make up for putting our marriage crisis yet again on the back burner.