25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[2sunny]

I've been so used to it for so long, and from such an early age, that I've only recently begun to realize what the difference is. I have now point blank told her I'm hoping we can talk before Friday. She responded with a smile, which I'm taking to mean yes. But again, non-verbal.

 

well- i think you have enough evidence that IF things remain the same as they have been - then it's not a good thing.

 

i'm floored that you don't expect to even get an answer when asking a simple question that only requires a yes or no answer.

 

that is completely rude and ineffective as a means of communicating.

 

does she expect THAT to be adequate at work? does she do that at work when asked if she'll be at a meeting - meet a deadline?

 

a smile? come one - that's just rude.- she can't let you know IF she can talk the whole week - and she can't answer if she's gonna make the friday counseling?

 

you accepting completely unacceptable behavior has gotten you nothing.

 

you will continue getting nothing as long as you settle for this as "normal" - it's not a normal way to communicate in a marriage - especially when that M is in crisis.

[NickFeek]

well- i think you have enough evidence that IF things remain the same as they have been - then it's not a good thing.

 

i'm floored that you don't expect to even get an answer when asking a simple question that only requires a yes or no answer.

 

that is completely rude and ineffective as a means of communicating.

 

does she expect THAT to be adequate at work? does she do that at work when asked if she'll be at a meeting - meet a deadline?

 

a smile? come one - that's just rude.- she can't let you know IF she can talk the whole week - and she can't answer if she's gonna make the friday counseling?

 

you accepting completely unacceptable behavior has gotten you nothing.

 

you will continue getting nothing as long as you settle for this as "normal" - it's not a normal way to communicate in a marriage - especially when that M is in crisis.

 

If I'm being fair, we have both found ways to avoid communication & confrontation. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but as with any long term relationship, there are certain things that are communicated in less than direct ways, however frustrating that might be. I am more direct than she is, but ONLY when I'm clear in my own head. Otherwise I tend to talk in circles until I get to my point. So while her failing is not talking/answering nearly enough, I tend to err in the other direction.

 

But I also agree with you that now, in a time of our worst crisis, tactics like this should be set aside. We'll see how things go on Friday, and take it from there.

[2sunny]

Soupy still don't EXPECT her to let you know ahead of time? You don't expect common courtesy from your W?

 

This agreement you two live by can't be effective.

 

Yet you don't have a boundary that shows it to be unacceptable.

 

You are complaining of very basic ways you two communicate ( or lack of) and ways you interact (or lack of) - yet on the back end you just keep accepting it knowing it causes you pain emotionally (she knows it too).

 

Since there's no boundary with any consequences for bad behavior ( lack of communication and lack of participating) she knows she can DO it this way (knowing it hurts you) and there's no consequence (except you sulking). Big deal.

 

Yet you keep signing up for this (saying - we DO it this way - but I don't like it).

 

At this point YOU are the victim of YOU Nick - first because you keep dancing this hurtful dance with her knowing it causes you harm; second because you haven't gotten a boundary that says she gets a consequence.

 

The way you participate is to complain - but defend her because this is the way she does it. There's NO change.

 

That's why things are still the same. You haven't expected change, implemented change, and are willing to go slower thana snails pace.

 

She resistant, yes. Go back to that "formula for change".

 

You may be able to "see more of her perspective" at this juncture - but is it ENOUGH to be happy in this M if it remains the same as it is now?

 

What exactly DO you want from her? Write your list!

 

State a very precise list on Friday. IF she's not willing to change everything to get toward the list - what's the point? She may be in counseling so that YOU grow to accept things the way they are now. You may be there to change the way things are now.

 

Ask her which one it is!

 

Expectations...what are yours - what are hers?

 

And HOW do you get to those quickly before the M runs out of patience?

[Lexygirl]

Nick, what you are talking about is the fact that you two are still behaving in ways to keep you in your comfort zones.

I've come to totally realize that in my own relationships. Comfort zones are to protect ourselves from any pain but with pain comes immense growth. This is the time for growth, Nick.

This is the only way out of this abyss. Require her to move out of her comfort zone and grow with you.

 

You have so much insight and empathy and those are amazing qualities that not everyone has. I hope she can see this and dig deep too very soon.

[2sunny]

Nick, what you are talking about is the fact that you two are still behaving in ways to keep you in your comfort zones.

I've come to totally realize that in my own relationships. Comfort zones are to protect ourselves from any pain but with pain comes immense growth. This is the time for growth, Nick.

This is the only way out of this abyss. Require her to move out of her comfort zone and grow with you.

 

You have so much insight and empathy and those are amazing qualities that not everyone has. I hope she can see this and dig deep too very soon.

 

Nah, he's so worried that she may experience being uncomfortable in her growth - that he hasn't required her to move in any direction.

 

He watches - every time she runs to hibernate at work - from her pain she won't face - then he complains about it.

 

At this point he is a victim of himself... Because there is no boundary that MAKES change happen whether she likes it or not. She's not gonna change! She's given plenty of evidence for that - you either accept it or not.

[NickFeek]

At this point YOU are the victim of YOU Nick - first because you keep dancing this hurtful dance with her knowing it causes you harm; second because you haven't gotten a boundary that says she gets a consequence.

 

That's why things are still the same. You haven't expected change, implemented change, and are willing to go slower thana snails pace.

 

You may be able to "see more of her perspective" at this juncture - but is it ENOUGH to be happy in this M if it remains the same as it is now?

 

What exactly DO you want from her? Write your list!

 

State a very precise list on Friday. IF she's not willing to change everything to get toward the list - what's the point? She may be in counseling so that YOU grow to accept things the way they are now. You may be there to change the way things are now.

 

Ask her which one it is!

 

Expectations...what are yours - what are hers?

 

And HOW do you get to those quickly before the M runs out of patience?

 

All good points. I chose a few to respond to.

 

I am in part the victim of my own enabling behavior. But realistically we all deal with things our loved ones do that don't thrill us. It's the overall depth & breadth of the connection that mitigates those things, and that's what we're missing.

 

There HAVE BEEN consequences - they just have either been ineffective due to my poor handling or ineffective because one of us isn't seeing that the way we communicate doesn't work. It's a big part of what we're working on in counseling.

 

Things are not entirely the same. Yes, it's a snail's pace, but I can see the movement & the change. NO I don't think that what we have now is enough to sustain us for the long haul, but lasting results take time.

 

I've made my list. I've shared it with her at least three times over the last several months. She has not always been in a state to deal with this stuff - let's not forget how traumatized she's been by the shockers I dumped on her last year & midyear this year.

 

Coincidentally, I actually DO plan to go over that list on Friday, and to ask what the likelihood is of progress on all fronts. And I want to hear more of her list to, which seems not to be very concrete.

 

As for quickly ... I'm not sure what the limit to patience is. I keep thinking I've reached it, she's reached it, the marriage has reached it. And then the dam breaks or cracks a little & we re-up.

[NickFeek]

Nick, what you are talking about is the fact that you two are still behaving in ways to keep you in your comfort zones.

I've come to totally realize that in my own relationships. Comfort zones are to protect ourselves from any pain but with pain comes immense growth. This is the time for growth, Nick.

This is the only way out of this abyss. Require her to move out of her comfort zone and grow with you.

 

You have so much insight and empathy and those are amazing qualities that not everyone has. I hope she can see this and dig deep too very soon.

 

You are right on all fronts. We are both very good at finding comfort zones & hiding there for way too long. I can tell you I've been out of the zone way more often this year, and I can also tell you that it's plain as day when she's in or out of the zone. But that's not something I can always influence. Yet there's no question we can't move forward as a couple until we both agree to move out of the zone & grow.

 

I appreciate you seeing I have empathy and insight, though I often question if it just makes things that much harder. And I also question how much of my insight is accurate. As for her seeing it - there are flashes when I know she sees it & feels it, like this week, and those are the times I feel like we can make this work. But those times are never sustained long enough for us to make serious & lasting changes.

[2sunny]

There is no evidence of "re-up" Nick - when she won't even give a simple "yes or no answer" on whether she plans to attend Fridays counseling session.

 

She's not answering - and you are "accepting it as acceptable for HER behavior".

 

You bend your expectations lower to accommodate her unacceptable participation.

 

That is what's wrong - and that's what isn't changing.

 

That is also why you are a victim of yourself... Yet you defend it as her "normal".

 

Now you are betraying yourself.

[NickFeek]

There is no evidence of "re-up" Nick - when she won't even give a simple "yes or no answer" on whether she plans to attend Fridays counseling session.

 

She's not answering - and you are "accepting it as acceptable for HER behavior".

 

You bend your expectations lower to accommodate her unacceptable participation.

 

That is what's wrong - and that's what isn't changing.

 

That is also why you are a victim of yourself... Yet you defend it as her "normal".

 

Now you are betraying yourself.

 

There's evidence of re-up. Not so much in that department, but unquestionably in other ways. You'd have to be here to feel it. It DOES matter that she doesn't see fit to give a yes or no, but that does not in any way preclude other improvements & changes. Now if all those were consistent & added up to a livable situation, I would be the first to say that. We're not there yet, but it would be suicidal to discount them just because the co-exist with the bad stuff.

 

Other than that, you're right & I can't argue otherwise. I don't feel like it's possible to be completely true to myself at the moment.

[2sunny]

You kids will pick a spouse similar to what you two are showing as your example of what M is.

 

They will choose that for themselves because this is what they KNOW and have been SHOWN as "normal".

 

Think about that Nick... Your kids should expect to live their adult life emotionally as bankrupt as you are showing them.

[NickFeek]

You kids will pick a spouse similar to what you two are showing as your example of what M is.

 

They will choose that for themselves because this is what they KNOW and have been SHOWN as "normal".

 

Think about that Nick... Your kids should expect to live their adult life emotionally as bankrupt as you are showing them.

 

So if I were to quantify our emotional bankruptcy (always an iffy thing to do, but let's), I'd say we have gone from 80% solid years ago, to 30%, back up to 60-70%, down to 35%, a tick up to 50%, then a slide down to 25%, then another slide down to about 15-20%. We're probably closer to 25% now. And that's just between us as a couple, not towards the kids.

 

I understand children end up in relationships that often mimic their parents. This is why we're working. What they should also see is that people don't run for the hills just because it's easier to toss the issues in the trash rather than sort through them. Our oldest knows what's going on, and she is comfortable asking how things are. Our youngest is mostly oblivious. It's the middle one I worry the most about.

[2sunny]

Kids know... They can feel it...

 

So your description of sticking through this - you figure you are showing them what, exactly?

 

That - in a M each person DESERVES to be loved, shown affection and feel close to the one they married... And they should expect that they can get that when the person they are married to is absent - or when present occasionally - they can't get an answer to a simple question?

 

You are showing them that in order to STAY married you should expect to have your feelings and needs completely ignored and have your spouse ignore you and the family? And that's called marriage!

 

That IS what they are SEEING - that IS their example - if it stays the same, with no change - that is what they should expect to choose in their spouse too.

[NickFeek]

Kids know... They can feel it...

 

So your description of sticking through this - you figure you are showing them what, exactly?

 

That - in a M each person DESERVES to be loved, shown affection and feel close to the one they married... And they should expect that they can get that when the person they are married to is absent - or when present occasionally - they can't get an answer to a simple question?

 

You are showing them that in order to STAY married you should expect to have your feelings and needs completely ignored and have your spouse ignore you and the family? And that's called marriage!

 

That IS what they are SEEING - that IS their example - if it stays the same, with no change - that is what they should expect to choose in their spouse too.

 

Right, yes. But what they are also seeing is two people acknowledging there are problems & trying to work through them, however imperfectly or inefficiently. And they're also seeing the many other ways we DO work well together as a couple, and always have. I don't think all that is enough for me, and I don't want them to think that's all a relationship should be. And that's one reason I'm determined to stay the course no matter how long it takes.

 

Honestly at this point I'm so sour on the idea of recommending that ANYONE get married that I can't imagine advocating that to my kids.

[2sunny]

You say you "are working on it" - but you don't even have enough change happening to understand IF she intends to go to counseling on Friday.

 

That's no change. Yet you expect things to magically get better knowing that you don't even expect "common courtesy" of an answer from her.

 

She hides at work - to ignore and avoid - and you and your kids have come to KNOW this as "normal".

 

And you take pride that you've stuck it out all these years with 25% of happy.

 

Hmmm

 

When they've been married and aren't happy - you gonna tell them - stay even though the evidence shows an unwilling to participate spouse?

 

You've shown them they should expect exactly that! Stay and betray self and pretend its your version of what happy looks like.

 

Never settle.

[2sunny]

we train people how to treat us.

 

what has she trained you to expect from her?

 

what have you trained her to expect from you?

 

what are you're children learning by YOUR example for a M?

 

what is it that CAN change? what can be DONE TODAY to start showing them a different way?

 

they will choose what they see - stay and complain about the inadequacy - or change it all and show them a different way.

[NickFeek]

we train people how to treat us.

 

what has she trained you to expect from her?

 

what have you trained her to expect from you?

 

what are you're children learning by YOUR example for a M?

 

what is it that CAN change? what can be DONE TODAY to start showing them a different way?

 

they will choose what they see - stay and complain about the inadequacy - or change it all and show them a different way.

 

We are - or at least I am - trying to show them a different way, part of which is showing that true lasting change, especially the kind that reverses years of mistakes and bad habits, takes lots of constant effort, diligence, and time; and it means being able to push through even when you fail or backpedal or screw up.

[2sunny]

We are - or at least I am - trying to show them a different way, part of which is showing that true lasting change, especially the kind that reverses years of mistakes and bad habits, takes lots of constant effort, diligence, and time; and it means being able to push through even when you fail or backpedal or screw up.

 

what change is that?

 

the change that shows that YOU go to counseling - YOU work to change the M - while your W and their Mom hides away at work... provides you all money but expects you to want or need nothing more from her? not even a simple answer as to expect or not expect HER participation in the RECOVERY part of this marriage?

 

how can this M be EXPECTED to recover and CHANGE when she uses blatant avoiding as HER plan of attack at changing the M?

 

how can THAT role model be a positive influence on your kids?

 

when things get tough - don't commit to change - don't DO things completely different than what we know DOESN'T work for us - just hide away at work and use excuses to avoid my family! how is that useful?

 

that's NOT change!

 

and that isn't a healthy role model to show the kids how to make things better when they get sucky!

 

you are in denial about staying married for this long - and expecting that your kids see it as a good thing.

 

normally - when the horse is dead and doesn't intend to get up and ride...you DECIDE that you need to GET OFF THE DEAD HORSE - but YOU keep kicking the dead horse expecting that it's not dead!

 

your kids see it - but your denial serves you well.

 

you stay married - there is NO great conquest in any years together if they don't have happy intent to grow and look like loving behavior. THAT would require participation from ANY wife...and she doesn't intend to participate - you just won't admit it to yourself or your kids.

 

stay married. accept this as what you get. and stop complaining. it's all she's offering.

 

no need for more counseling - she's not willing to change!

 

the decision rests with you - stay on the horse and kick it longer - or get off and look at the reality that been there a LONG time.

[NickFeek]

what change is that?

 

the change that shows that YOU go to counseling - YOU work to change the M - while your W and their Mom hides away at work... provides you all money but expects you to want or need nothing more from her? not even a simple answer as to expect or not expect HER participation in the RECOVERY part of this marriage?

 

how can this M be EXPECTED to recover and CHANGE when she uses blatant avoiding as HER plan of attack at changing the M?

 

how can THAT role model be a positive influence on your kids?

 

when things get tough - don't commit to change - don't DO things completely different than what we know DOESN'T work for us - just hide away at work and use excuses to avoid my family! how is that useful?

 

that's NOT change!

 

and that isn't a healthy role model to show the kids how to make things better when they get sucky!

 

you are in denial about staying married for this long - and expecting that your kids see it as a good thing.

 

normally - when the horse is dead and doesn't intend to get up and ride...you DECIDE that you need to GET OFF THE DEAD HORSE - but YOU keep kicking the dead horse expecting that it's not dead!

 

your kids see it - but your denial serves you well.

 

you stay married - there is NO great conquest in any years together if they don't have happy intent to grow and look like loving behavior. THAT would require participation from ANY wife...and she doesn't intend to participate - you just won't admit it to yourself or your kids.

 

stay married. accept this as what you get. and stop complaining. it's all she's offering.

 

no need for more counseling - she's not willing to change!

 

the decision rests with you - stay on the horse and kick it longer - or get off and look at the reality that been there a LONG time.

 

I think we're in agreement on the basic principles here. It's obvious our timelines are different, but I'm okay with that. The real discrepancy here is I am arguing process and you are arguing outcome. Your points are extremely valid if we're talking about an end result. But if we're talking about PROCESS, it's way messier & way less likely to look how you want it to look at any given moment. It's like pulling a souffle out of the oven after ten minutes of cooking & saying, "Look - you suck at baking souffles. The whole thing is caved in." If, after proper cooking time, the souffle still sucks, then you throw it out. Before that & you're pretty much guaranteed it will suck.

[2sunny]

I think it's a good analogy... But how do you explain getting that souffle to be made when the ingredients aren't being mixed into the bowl and you can't count on anyone to do the work.

 

It's like counting on you to do the buying of ingredients, you doing the measurements, you doing the mixing - but counting on your W to place it in the oven - yet she won't even say yes or no to getting it in to bake. Then watching you do all that work without her answer if she INTENDS to put it in the oven.

 

There's no respect in her not answering. Yet you don't even expect this basic respect.

 

There's no way to have a souffle IF we count on one person to bake it and she won't tell us if she will or she won't.

 

Does she intend to participate in this M? Or does she plan to leave it to you while she stays absent?

 

By her pattern - she intends to stay away - stay quiet - and have you live with it... There's no way to get anything cooking with that kind of effort.

[worldgonewrong]

It's like counting on you to do the buying of ingredients, you doing the measurements, you doing the mixing - but counting on your W to place it in the oven - yet she won't even say yes or no to getting it in to bake. Then watching you do all that work without her answer if she INTENDS to put it in the oven.

 

:laugh:

This really made my day!

[NickFeek]

I think it's a good analogy... But how do you explain getting that souffle to be made when the ingredients aren't being mixed into the bowl and you can't count on anyone to do the work.

 

It's like counting on you to do the buying of ingredients, you doing the measurements, you doing the mixing - but counting on your W to place it in the oven - yet she won't even say yes or no to getting it in to bake. Then watching you do all that work without her answer if she INTENDS to put it in the oven.

 

There's no respect in her not answering. Yet you don't even expect this basic respect.

 

There's no way to have a souffle IF we count on one person to bake it and she won't tell us if she will or she won't.

 

Does she intend to participate in this M? Or does she plan to leave it to you while she stays absent?

 

By her pattern - she intends to stay away - stay quiet - and have you live with it... There's no way to get anything cooking with that kind of effort.

 

Excellent, masterful extension of the analogy! Had to laugh a little.

 

I know I know. The problem we've almost always had is just what you describe above. But I have messed up the whole cooking process by dumping the entire recipe on the floor and licking someone else's bowl. So she shut off the oven, if it was even preheating to begin with. And now we have to clean up before we can start cooking all over again. The questions I'm trying to answer now are: Will she grab a mop and help out? (I believe so) Is she also prepared to make the recipe together? (not convinced yet) And is either of us even in the mood for souffle anymore after all this? (really not sure yet)

 

Sorry, couldn't resist .

[worldgonewrong]

And is either of us even in the mood for souffle anymore after all this?

 

It might be time to call up & have a pizza delivered!

[2sunny]

And by the way - I am not arguing outcome. I am discussing PROCESS just as you are - but I don't see TWO people in the process.

 

You can't have a M when there's not two people participating.

 

She figuresit enough to give you her earned money to go to the store. It's not enough.

 

Especially when she's not telling IF she'll put it in to bake.

 

The illusion is that you have a M. What you have is a convenience. She stays away, earns money, and relies on you to be quiet and take care of anything necessary without disturbing her world.

 

That's no marriage. That's an arrangement; an agreement for tasks.

 

She expects you to expect nothing from her. Is that right? Is that enough?

 

Things are NOT likely to change with her level of resistance. You may have had a better shot when she got scared and agreed to counseling - but now she's thinking you're not leaving and so she isn't gonna make an effort.

[2sunny]

I think you assume she's in the kitchen - when she's not even close.

 

She doesn't appear to care that there's a mess - she intends to ignore the mess - YOU deal with it - she doesn't even want to eat the dessert anyway...so why bother when she can hide away and avoid it all knowing you will do the work while she's away.

[NickFeek]

It might be time to call up & have a pizza delivered!

 

Ha yes! That's the answer I've been looking for.