25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

At this point she holds all the power.

 

The past few days of events shows her that:

 

You are willing to stay even though

 

She treats you unkindly

Tells you she's not wanting to be married

Not gonna show you the love and affection she knows you want

Not willing to change

Not gonna participate

Not gonna face her fears

Not gonna love you like you want to be loved

Not intending to respect and honor you

 

Yet the way YOU participate shows her that you will settle for this.

 

She bumped you waaaay back - to that place where SHE expects YOU to be - and you accepted it by your actions (or inactions).

 

Since you stay - live with what you created - what you agreed to. This IS acceptance.

 

She expects to call the shots (even in her silence and avoiding) and she expects YOU to go along with it. She's just unwilling to tell you most days.

 

You chose! She pulled her trump card and revealed her truth - and you staying (and not knowing what she intends to change) shows her that you will stay no matter how little she pays attention to you.

 

Well fortunately no decisions to stay or not have been made. And I have made it clear that NO issue can be ignored if we are going to go forward. Things are very nebulous right now. And I'm not able or ready to define where we are until we agree on how to make progress and move forward.

[2sunny]

Now that the flood gates are open, that's exactly what I intend to do. We need things to be more concrete.

 

It's already happened man!

 

You have NOW already made the new agreement with her - justby your action (or I should say inaction).

 

When she called yesterday to "see what you thought" of her behavior the night before - THAT was the defining moment to act on a healthy boundary - and the moment went away when you didn't find out her exact intentions to change before considering a decision to participate further.

 

You can no longer blame her - your inactions affect this too! She's trained you well! She bumps you back to your "shame on you for expecting something" corner - and you just run right to the spot she points to.

[findingnemo]

I have always been willing to deal with my cheating lying anger all around bad behavior from every angle and in any way we need to. But to exclude the preexisting is marriage suicide. To also say that her wall is all about the cheating is ignoring the fact that she's had her wallS up and bolstered for years.

 

I will never minimize what I've done. But I will also not sit back and allow that to consume the entire conversation for the next two years.

 

I totally see what you mean. Yes you cheated. That's one thing that hurts her like crazy. But there's plenty of things that she's done to hurt you. She is literally holding onto the infidelity for dear life. That's what I think given the efforts you have made to reconcile.

 

This new development where she discovered old mail serves as another anchor for her. Okay. I accept that she's hurt and betrayed. But then what? For how long will the status quo hold? Things can't remain static and it seems like she'd prefer to keep holding onto the anger as a control mechanism. This is a sign of significant psychological issues that she may have.

 

I also respect your decision to keep the family intact for your kids. When I suggested you find other things to love, I didn't mean you get an OW. I meant that you withdraw from this battle. You're fighting a rival who doesn't respect the rules of engagement. So stop fighting. All the attention you're giving her is on the one hand pleasing her (or she'd have left already) and on the other hand pushing her to run away to her work due to the pressure to do what she doesn't want to do.

 

If you withdraw one of two things may happen. The first is that she'll see it and start working on your R. She start talking to you more asking you about how YOU feel and what YOU want. The second thing is that she'll be comfortable and relieved. The thing about the second option is that it will allow you to live in what will be your reality for years and years to come. One day you will wake up and leave. When the kids are older and can understand (whenever that is, is up to you), you'll leave. Acceptance of her way sets you free to feel what is happening rather than living on hope. It also allows her to have what she wants. She may not like the life that she seems to be fighting so hard to have. She is after all human.

Edited November 10, 2011 by findingnemo

[2sunny]

since you intend to stay - do it HER way - stay quiet, expect no interaction from her, and accept her ignoring you... DO NOT ENGAGE! and certainly don't expect touching or sex! stay and take care of your kids and allow her the room to work her life away.

 

that is her agreement - live with it! that is what she has offered... you either take it or leave it...by staying she provides her income and willingness to stop in at the end of each day for her rest... leave her alone...

 

THAT is what she's asked you to agree to with her inaction...

 

you either DO IT THIS WAY - or you don't!

[soserious1]

Nick, I've followed this thread for ages, at this point it appears to me that the marriage is over for both of you. All this current noise is just the two of you dancing & weaving to avoid the pain of just finally once & for all calling it quits.

 

If I were in your shoes, come Friday the therapist would be told of the fight & your wife's announcement that the marriage is over. If your wife then waffles, I'd tell her that either she commits to dealing with ALL per personal demons in IC & also commits to having weekly, no holds barred sex (including oral and anal) that you would like the couple's counseling sessions to focus on how best to set up a co-parenting plan & for planning the divorce.

 

It's crap or get off the pot time IMHO.

[2sunny]

I'd be in that office today! I'd be telling the therapist it is do or die time! And if my spouse wasn't willing to go on a moments notice and give honest solid info from which to work from - I'd state it's OVER!

 

Waiting and being quiet has only gotten you more of the same - complacency.

 

If you're willing to settle for complacency by waiting on her - just say so - because you don't need help for that - you two are masters at that game.

[knitwit]

Hi Nick,

 

I find your post below very disturbing, Nick.

 

It's a painfully open question. As of two nights ago, she was MORE than ready to walk out. NOW it seems like she's bounced wayyyy back in our direction.

 

This is one big flag. Men can keep going in a relationship long after they've reached the point of unhappiness. Women usually don't; they keep fighting and fighting, until something finally breaks. She is already starting to waiver over the DONE line. It sounds like this is something you want to avoid, but I don't think you are going in the right direction.

 

 

This is true as far as it goes - meaning the last year or so. What, however, would explain her near IDENTICAL behavior over the previous 20 years?

 

Why should she change her behavior at this point?

 

YOU and YOUR behavior are still very painful to your wife. I don't know of any nice or delicate way to put it. You are still dangerous to her.

 

At this point she has NO reason to make herself vulnerable yet again to someone who has shown, and continues to show, that he is willing to put himself and his wants and needs ahead of her well-being.

 

Your wife is a smart woman. When it comes to the heart and family, the best investment is a safe investment. You are not safe.

 

There is no point in her putting her heart on the line to try to build a better house until she is convinced that she can trust you to really work with her- that you are willing to bring the tools and hard work and dedication, and avoid any gasoline!

 

I have certainly been ham-fisted very often. I have also been quite clear about what we BOTH need to change. I'm doing my best to better understand her needs & the ways in which she feels I've neglected or hurt her. But that does not mean I'm the sole person on the hot seat.

 

Nick, you ARE the sole person in the hot seat, at least for the time being.

 

If you want to have a good relationship- with your wife, or anyone else in the future- you have got to stop keeping score.

 

It is not loving behavior. It tells her that you are watching and focused on tHER faults. You need to stop pointing out her flaws and start demonstrating, day in and day out, that YOU are a good, safe, loving, reliable person who she can trust.

 

Stop demanding that she change. You can't control her. She has her own issues, and one of her biggest battles with herself right now is trying to decide if she should even bother trying. She has told you this loud and clear on numerous occasions.

 

If you don't show her that you are a BETTER and safer person that the guy who had an affair, you are going to lose her.

 

The ONLY way to do that is to improve yourself. This should be your job and your goal. Your ability to be a good, safe, reliable, loving person has NOTHING to do with how she acts, BTW. In fact, the only way she can really trust that you HAVE grown into a good, safe, reliable, loving person is to consistently act that way- even in the face of her being the opposite. I hope I am saying this right so it makes sense.

 

My entire argument here is that currently you are NOT a good, safe, reliable, loving person to her. In fact, I suggest that you are INADVERTENTLY continuing to do damage to her. This is why:

 

 

In a perfectly black & white situation, I'd agree with you. And I do have a long term plan to move away from the company. But it won't happen soon enough for her to avoid more hurt.

 

Three things:

1. How long is "long term"?

2. Does your wife know about this plan?

3. You're right that unless you leave the job today, your wife is going to continue to be hurt. In fact, she has told you that just having you go to the job is painful for her.

 

So to say, "it won't happen soon enough for her to avoid more hurt" is really terrible IMO. Are you saying that since she is going to hurt anyway, there is no point trying to make the hurt less? Or stop earlier?

 

There is a big difference between saying "I will do this for 90 more days and will support my wife in any and every way possible to help her through this" than to say, "eh, she is going to hurt regardless of what I do, so there is no point in making her pain the prime consideration."

 

You are KNOWINGLY going to work each day. You KNOW that your wife hurts each time you go to work. If you do NOT have a plan to reduce this pain, this suggests to me that you are willing to put your own wants and needs ahead of your wife's well-being.

 

Let's look a little deeper into your thoughts on your work and the OW:

 

I do completely understand how she & you feel about my continued involvement with the company. But since my actual business involvement with the OW has gone from 100% to 5-10%, and my personal involvement is nil, I can't simply abandon something that important to me & others who have worked so hard. She has to come to the table with WAY MORE for me to ever consider that.

 

First, I want to note that elsewhere in your post you also say that you have gone No Contact. Clearly this is not the case. 5-10% business involvement is still some involvement. You have gone LOW contact. There is a HUGE difference.

 

You cannot accurately assess how well you are doing in how you are helping your wife and your marriage heal if you will not be accurate and truthful.

 

Second, you say that you can't "abandon something that is so important to you" or let down the OW and the others.

 

If I were you wife and I read that, I would interpret it to mean that NOT ONLY your own needs and wants, but also the needs and wants of your colleagues, including your OW, are more important to you than hers.

 

In other words, you are not willing to change the people and places of your acts of betrayal- not unless your wife makes some big changes and can "bring more to the table."

 

Lets continue:

 

And the thing is, there is NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that her pattern of emotional/physical reclusiveness & neglect over the SPAN of our relationship is a giant factor in where we have ended up. Did I cheat & lie all on my own? Absolutely. Does her past behavior excuse me from that? Not in the least. Do we both need to recover from what I did? Yes, of course. But there is NO EXCUSE for her not dealing with ALL of our issues. I do not in any way buy the argument that all of a sudden the MOST IMPORTANT issue in our marriage is my infidelity. Is it a killer? No question. But there is no way we BOTH can move on & rebuild something we're BOTH satisfied with until we BOTH own up to EVERYTHING we've done.

 

Seriously?

 

Nick. You are not in reality.

 

"All of a sudden" the infidelity is the biggest issue in your marriage?!?!

 

What are the bigger issues?!?!?

 

Your wife is in pain! YOU are the one who caused that pain.

 

You CONTINUE to cause her pain.

 

It is very foggy thinking to believe that she can somehow heal herself from what you have put her through! Even in the best of circumstances- when both partners want to reunite, and both are working hard- it takes about 2 years to recover from infidelity.

 

You are nowhere near that. You started off very foggy (see the beginning of the thread). Since then you have made ultimatums on her (therapy or else you are leaving) and even now, you are still unhappy with her efforts.

 

It is impossible for her to suddenly be able to resolve ALL the issues in the marriage.

 

You have GOT to help HER first, if you hope to get anywhere.

 

Do you not see that you are causing your wife pain? Is there a "Yeah BUT she is causing pain for me" going on in your head? It is IRRELEVANT.

 

Do you want to be a man who protects his wife? Who actively loves her? Right now you are a man who is a source of continuing pain, conflict, dishonesty for his wife- is this really what you want?

 

If you really want to get past the infidelity, then you have to truly accept that YOU are the one who is going to have lay down the battle sword first and help her.

 

She has to begin to feel secure in your love and begin to develop some trust in you BEFORE she can do things like be intimate, want to be around you, be able to give back to you.

 

We've done the transparency thing. It's helped. We've done the no contact thing. It's helped but has not been enough for her. [/Quote]

 

This is gaslighting, Nick.

 

What do you mean, it's not been enough for her? Telling her that you are transparent and have had no contact? How is she supposed to trust you when you tell her that??? It is a LIE. It is NOT transparent! You have NOT had No Contact.

 

As to number two, I've been ardently working on that for a good six months. And that does not count the 25 years I've been trying to figure her out. [/Quote]

 

Are you sure you've been ardently working on this? I see you strong-arming her, lying to her about your status with the OW, deprioritizing her, having fights, gaslighting, and putting yourself way above your wife. I don't see how any of this is meeting her emotional needs. I see you bargaining with her at best & continuing emotional harm at worst.

 

I have spent more time worrying about her emotional & psychological AND physical well being than she has, throughout her whole adult life. She continues to neglect herself, and in doing so gives less to all around her. I'm now done with trying to help her in that way. It's up to her.

 

Your wife has been devastated. She has been betrayed, strong-armed, and still continues to suffer.

 

She is right. You really do not appreciate what she does and what she is going through. You can only see it through your own pain, you can't get past it to help heal her pain.

 

She is still working and supporting you and the kids. She has made an attempt in therapy even though she didn't want to. She has been putting up a good fight, but I strongly suspect that she is very close to being done.

 

You have not been this foggy since you showed up on LS.

 

Be honest. Are you talking more to or thinking more about the OW?

 

I see giant steps backward for you in this post.

 

You are very unrealistic right now.

 

You speak as if you are the caring and loving one, and she is not willing to make any changes at all- but the thread itself does not demonstrate that as a reality.

 

You are trying, I can see that. But there is a reason that your relationship is still in chaos, that your high-powered and normally high-functioning wife is still all over the place, and that you are still struggling.

 

You need a dramatically different plan, Nick.

 

She may or may not come around, she may or may not ever change in the way you hope. But you are going in the wrong direction if you are hoping for a successful reconcilation.

 

Good luck and please do keep on posting.

[2sunny]

In some cases I would agree with you knitwit... But not in this one.

[2sunny]

i agree he needs a dramatically different plan... one that shows a solid, healthy boundary.

 

what i don't agree with is your perspective of shaming him into guilt to be reduced to giving in to an unhappy future.

 

he has shown that he's not communicating with his former OW on any personal basis. to hold onto that isn't moving forward.

 

his W - holds onto her fear and anger as if it identifies her - and retreats into her own place - expecting to be completely absent and expecting Nick to be good with that.

 

 

he has stated he wants an INTIMATE partner - one who WANTS to spend time with him - sharing his thoughts, feelings and yes, sex too. she wants NO PART of it.

 

saying that he should settle and live with what he gets is settling... for he wants a PARTNER... an intimate partner.

 

she's not budging - no way, no how - is that enough? dunno - it's really only ENOUGH if a person lowers their own expectation and DECIDES they don't NEED MORE than their current partner is willing to bring to the table.

 

Nick's wife shows exactly what she's willing to bring to the table - and what she's NOT bringing to the table. true, he can't MAKE her bring anything more than what she's already giving...

 

that is what he accepts - or not...for HIM and HIS happiness.

[findingnemo]

i agree he needs a dramatically different plan... one that shows a solid, healthy boundary.

 

what i don't agree with is your perspective of shaming him into guilt to be reduced to giving in to an unhappy future.

 

he has shown that he's not communicating with his former OW on any personal basis. to hold onto that isn't moving forward.

 

his W - holds onto her fear and anger as if it identifies her - and retreats into her own place - expecting to be completely absent and expecting Nick to be good with that.

 

 

he has stated he wants an INTIMATE partner - one who WANTS to spend time with him - sharing his thoughts, feelings and yes, sex too. she wants NO PART of it.

 

saying that he should settle and live with what he gets is settling... for he wants a PARTNER... an intimate partner.

 

she's not budging - no way, no how - is that enough? dunno - it's really only ENOUGH if a person lowers their own expectation and DECIDES they don't NEED MORE than their current partner is willing to bring to the table.

 

Nick's wife shows exactly what she's willing to bring to the table - and what she's NOT bringing to the table. true, he can't MAKE her bring anything more than what she's already giving...

 

that is what he accepts - or not...for HIM and HIS happiness.

 

All true, 2sunny.

 

What is also clear is that she ain't going nowhere. Saying that the M is over was another power play on Nick. What else can it be if she changed her mind thereafter?

 

You can't be in an R having all sorts of intimacy issues for years and not expect something to happen eventually. Infidelity is one of the things that happens. It may not be moral but it isn't abnormal. This is why I stopped focusing on the infidelity at post 100 or so.

 

What kind of behaviour is this if not cake-eating really? She wants Nick to remain faithful 100%. She also wants him to remain loving as long he doesn't expect sex. She wants him to be the homemaker taking care of the kids while she works till late. The working part I can understand to some extent but the remain faithful but expect no sex is unacceptable, impractical, unrealistic, unbelievable, abnormal...I could go on.

[NickFeek]

It's already happened man!

 

You have NOW already made the new agreement with her - justby your action (or I should say inaction).

 

When she called yesterday to "see what you thought" of her behavior the night before - THAT was the defining moment to act on a healthy boundary - and the moment went away when you didn't find out her exact intentions to change before considering a decision to participate further.

 

You can no longer blame her - your inactions affect this too! She's trained you well! She bumps you back to your "shame on you for expecting something" corner - and you just run right to the spot she points to.

 

No, I can't agree with that. Inaction or delayed action is not always the same as action. I did not condone her behavior. I did not thank her for calling me or express a sense of relief. I spoke to her plainly, listened carefully, and laid the groundwork for whatever comes next.

[trippi1432]

Knitwit...again I applaud your post.

[NickFeek]

I totally see what you mean. Yes you cheated. That's one thing that hurts her like crazy. But there's plenty of things that she's done to hurt you. She is literally holding onto the infidelity for dear life. That's what I think given the efforts you have made to reconcile.

 

This new development where she discovered old mail serves as another anchor for her. Okay. I accept that she's hurt and betrayed. But then what? For how long will the status quo hold? Things can't remain static and it seems like she'd prefer to keep holding onto the anger as a control mechanism. This is a sign of significant psychological issues that she may have.

 

I also respect your decision to keep the family intact for your kids. When I suggested you find other things to love, I didn't mean you get an OW. I meant that you withdraw from this battle. You're fighting a rival who doesn't respect the rules of engagement. So stop fighting. All the attention you're giving her is on the one hand pleasing her (or she'd have left already) and on the other hand pushing her to run away to her work due to the pressure to do what she doesn't want to do.

 

If you withdraw one of two things may happen. The first is that she'll see it and start working on your R. She start talking to you more asking you about how YOU feel and what YOU want. The second thing is that she'll be comfortable and relieved. The thing about the second option is that it will allow you to live in what will be your reality for years and years to come. One day you will wake up and leave. When the kids are older and can understand (whenever that is, is up to you), you'll leave. Acceptance of her way sets you free to feel what is happening rather than living on hope. It also allows her to have what she wants. She may not like the life that she seems to be fighting so hard to have. She is after all human.

 

I see what you mean by withdrawing, and I can see how that's worked already. I withdrew for ONE DAY, and she very quickly became more solicitous & understanding. I need to stop chasing her & pleading with her to do the work. This approach should force the issue one way or another.

 

The only thing wrong with this approach is that I'm already hurting so badly. To withdraw with no sense of comfort is going to be even worse, and will be unsustainable for any stretch of time. Kids & career cannot take the place of deep one-on-one love for me. If they could we wouldn't be in this mess. We'd both have been content with what we had.

[NickFeek]

since you intend to stay - do it HER way - stay quiet, expect no interaction from her, and accept her ignoring you... DO NOT ENGAGE! and certainly don't expect touching or sex! stay and take care of your kids and allow her the room to work her life away.

 

that is her agreement - live with it! that is what she has offered... you either take it or leave it...by staying she provides her income and willingness to stop in at the end of each day for her rest... leave her alone...

 

THAT is what she's asked you to agree to with her inaction...

 

you either DO IT THIS WAY - or you don't!

 

You're leaping way ahead & assuming intentions on her part that SHE isn't even aware of. I grant that this COULD happen, if we were to let this current state of affairs persist. But that's not how it is now. Things are not nearly so definitive or set in stone.

[NickFeek]

Nick, I've followed this thread for ages, at this point it appears to me that the marriage is over for both of you. All this current noise is just the two of you dancing & weaving to avoid the pain of just finally once & for all calling it quits.

 

If I were in your shoes, come Friday the therapist would be told of the fight & your wife's announcement that the marriage is over. If your wife then waffles, I'd tell her that either she commits to dealing with ALL per personal demons in IC & also commits to having weekly, no holds barred sex (including oral and anal) that you would like the couple's counseling sessions to focus on how best to set up a co-parenting plan & for planning the divorce.

 

It's crap or get off the pot time IMHO.

 

I'm sad to say I agree with this. I am feeling such a sense of loss today - that aching in the heart/chest, that I can attribute it to nothing but the feeling that something has ended. More later.

[NickFeek]

Hi Nick,

 

I find your post below very disturbing, Nick.

 

 

 

This is one big flag. Men can keep going in a relationship long after they've reached the point of unhappiness. Women usually don't; they keep fighting and fighting, until something finally breaks. She is already starting to waiver over the DONE line. It sounds like this is something you want to avoid, but I don't think you are going in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

Why should she change her behavior at this point?

 

YOU and YOUR behavior are still very painful to your wife. I don't know of any nice or delicate way to put it. You are still dangerous to her.

 

At this point she has NO reason to make herself vulnerable yet again to someone who has shown, and continues to show, that he is willing to put himself and his wants and needs ahead of her well-being.

 

Your wife is a smart woman. When it comes to the heart and family, the best investment is a safe investment. You are not safe.

 

There is no point in her putting her heart on the line to try to build a better house until she is convinced that she can trust you to really work with her- that you are willing to bring the tools and hard work and dedication, and avoid any gasoline!

 

 

 

Nick, you ARE the sole person in the hot seat, at least for the time being.

 

If you want to have a good relationship- with your wife, or anyone else in the future- you have got to stop keeping score.

 

It is not loving behavior. It tells her that you are watching and focused on tHER faults. You need to stop pointing out her flaws and start demonstrating, day in and day out, that YOU are a good, safe, loving, reliable person who she can trust.

 

Stop demanding that she change. You can't control her. She has her own issues, and one of her biggest battles with herself right now is trying to decide if she should even bother trying. She has told you this loud and clear on numerous occasions.

 

If you don't show her that you are a BETTER and safer person that the guy who had an affair, you are going to lose her.

 

The ONLY way to do that is to improve yourself. This should be your job and your goal. Your ability to be a good, safe, reliable, loving person has NOTHING to do with how she acts, BTW. In fact, the only way she can really trust that you HAVE grown into a good, safe, reliable, loving person is to consistently act that way- even in the face of her being the opposite. I hope I am saying this right so it makes sense.

 

My entire argument here is that currently you are NOT a good, safe, reliable, loving person to her. In fact, I suggest that you are INADVERTENTLY continuing to do damage to her. This is why:

 

 

 

 

Three things:

1. How long is "long term"?

2. Does your wife know about this plan?

3. You're right that unless you leave the job today, your wife is going to continue to be hurt. In fact, she has told you that just having you go to the job is painful for her.

 

So to say, "it won't happen soon enough for her to avoid more hurt" is really terrible IMO. Are you saying that since she is going to hurt anyway, there is no point trying to make the hurt less? Or stop earlier?

 

There is a big difference between saying "I will do this for 90 more days and will support my wife in any and every way possible to help her through this" than to say, "eh, she is going to hurt regardless of what I do, so there is no point in making her pain the prime consideration."

 

You are KNOWINGLY going to work each day. You KNOW that your wife hurts each time you go to work. If you do NOT have a plan to reduce this pain, this suggests to me that you are willing to put your own wants and needs ahead of your wife's well-being.

 

Let's look a little deeper into your thoughts on your work and the OW:

 

 

 

First, I want to note that elsewhere in your post you also say that you have gone No Contact. Clearly this is not the case. 5-10% business involvement is still some involvement. You have gone LOW contact. There is a HUGE difference.

 

You cannot accurately assess how well you are doing in how you are helping your wife and your marriage heal if you will not be accurate and truthful.

 

Second, you say that you can't "abandon something that is so important to you" or let down the OW and the others.

 

If I were you wife and I read that, I would interpret it to mean that NOT ONLY your own needs and wants, but also the needs and wants of your colleagues, including your OW, are more important to you than hers.

 

In other words, you are not willing to change the people and places of your acts of betrayal- not unless your wife makes some big changes and can "bring more to the table."

 

Lets continue:

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

Nick. You are not in reality.

 

"All of a sudden" the infidelity is the biggest issue in your marriage?!?!

 

What are the bigger issues?!?!?

 

Your wife is in pain! YOU are the one who caused that pain.

 

You CONTINUE to cause her pain.

 

It is very foggy thinking to believe that she can somehow heal herself from what you have put her through! Even in the best of circumstances- when both partners want to reunite, and both are working hard- it takes about 2 years to recover from infidelity.

 

You are nowhere near that. You started off very foggy (see the beginning of the thread). Since then you have made ultimatums on her (therapy or else you are leaving) and even now, you are still unhappy with her efforts.

 

It is impossible for her to suddenly be able to resolve ALL the issues in the marriage.

 

You have GOT to help HER first, if you hope to get anywhere.

 

Do you not see that you are causing your wife pain? Is there a "Yeah BUT she is causing pain for me" going on in your head? It is IRRELEVANT.

 

Do you want to be a man who protects his wife? Who actively loves her? Right now you are a man who is a source of continuing pain, conflict, dishonesty for his wife- is this really what you want?

 

If you really want to get past the infidelity, then you have to truly accept that YOU are the one who is going to have lay down the battle sword first and help her.

 

She has to begin to feel secure in your love and begin to develop some trust in you BEFORE she can do things like be intimate, want to be around you, be able to give back to you.

 

 

 

This is gaslighting, Nick.

 

What do you mean, it's not been enough for her? Telling her that you are transparent and have had no contact? How is she supposed to trust you when you tell her that??? It is a LIE. It is NOT transparent! You have NOT had No Contact.

 

 

 

Are you sure you've been ardently working on this? I see you strong-arming her, lying to her about your status with the OW, deprioritizing her, having fights, gaslighting, and putting yourself way above your wife. I don't see how any of this is meeting her emotional needs. I see you bargaining with her at best & continuing emotional harm at worst.

 

 

 

Your wife has been devastated. She has been betrayed, strong-armed, and still continues to suffer.

 

She is right. You really do not appreciate what she does and what she is going through. You can only see it through your own pain, you can't get past it to help heal her pain.

 

She is still working and supporting you and the kids. She has made an attempt in therapy even though she didn't want to. She has been putting up a good fight, but I strongly suspect that she is very close to being done.

 

You have not been this foggy since you showed up on LS.

 

Be honest. Are you talking more to or thinking more about the OW?

 

I see giant steps backward for you in this post.

 

You are very unrealistic right now.

 

You speak as if you are the caring and loving one, and she is not willing to make any changes at all- but the thread itself does not demonstrate that as a reality.

 

You are trying, I can see that. But there is a reason that your relationship is still in chaos, that your high-powered and normally high-functioning wife is still all over the place, and that you are still struggling.

 

You need a dramatically different plan, Nick.

 

She may or may not come around, she may or may not ever change in the way you hope. But you are going in the wrong direction if you are hoping for a successful reconcilation.

 

Good luck and please do keep on posting.

 

Hey so I appreciate all the time you took here, and I'd love to answer all your points & give it the time it deserves. But it's so full of assumptions, inaccuracies, bias, and a clear animosity towards me or people like me, that I just can't respond. Thanks anyway.

[NickFeek]

All true, 2sunny.

 

What is also clear is that she ain't going nowhere. Saying that the M is over was another power play on Nick. What else can it be if she changed her mind thereafter?

 

You can't be in an R having all sorts of intimacy issues for years and not expect something to happen eventually. Infidelity is one of the things that happens. It may not be moral but it isn't abnormal. This is why I stopped focusing on the infidelity at post 100 or so.

 

What kind of behaviour is this if not cake-eating really? She wants Nick to remain faithful 100%. She also wants him to remain loving as long he doesn't expect sex. She wants him to be the homemaker taking care of the kids while she works till late. The working part I can understand to some extent but the remain faithful but expect no sex is unacceptable, impractical, unrealistic, unbelievable, abnormal...I could go on.

 

Thanks to you & 2sunny for your counter arguments. I do also appreciate everything knitwit said. I just can't keep having the same argument on this post.

 

What I will say surprised me about threatening to leave is this: When I did it in the spring, I was 100% sure I was done. I then had a massive change of heart & mind. When that happened, the power shifted in HER favor, not mine. Now that she's done the same thing, we both sense that the power has shifted in MY favor. I have no intention of wielding that power in any abusive or overbearing way - it would make for an even unhappier ending. What I do intend to do, though, is pick up some of the threads of arguments/issues we dropped once I said I was leaving. I will of course discuss the infidelity & the company as much as she wants, but I plan on making sure we give equal time to our history, and to the big things missing in our relationship from the start.

[knitwit]

Sunny,

 

It is not shaming to tell the truth. He does not have No Contact with the OW. The intent is irrelevant. He it might be low contact, but it is not No contact.

 

I am saying his wife cannot move forward as long as there is contact. This is a primary tenet for reconcilation after infidelity. It can't always be done immediately due to finances when its a workplace issue, but it must be done some point as soon as possible. It is not specific to him but is a cornerstone in reconciliation.

 

I am not shaming him into any unhappy future. He can leave at any point.

 

You guys are telling him to leave to leave now. Fair enough! But if he wants to continue to fight for his marriage, then he needs to show his wife that he is a better man.

 

You can bash her all you want, but none of it changes HIS ACTIONS towards her.

 

Lying, cheating, losing his temper, making ultimatums, blaming his partner for HER feelings, and putting his own wants first are HIS issues that are going to cause him problems no matter what relationship he is in.

 

Nick, I don't mean to bash you personally- I have my own list of issues, we all have them. We all get to try to work them out in our relationships.

 

But given that you say you want to try to stay married, you might as well work on these issues now with your wife. God knows you'll be challenged! But if you can, you will show her that you are in fact trustworthy.

 

Hey, it still might now help. She still might never overcome her issues. She might never be able to truly be intimate with you. At the very worst, you will have become a better guy for the next woman in your life.

[NickFeek]

Knitwit...again I applaud your post.

 

I need you & knitwit to explain to me how infidelity means all other issues cease to exist. Then I need you both to go back and show me where I ever said I was justified or when I ever said she should get over it. If you can convince me of any of this, I will respond to your future posts. If not, I'm really just going to ignore the both of you.

 

This is not helpful. This is rehashing stuff we've gone over a million times since I started posting. I have made it very clear I not only see this side of things, but I agree with much of what you and others with your stance are saying. If you cannot extend me the same courtesy then you have made up your minds in a way that conveniently ignores 25 years of history, which automatically invalidates at least half of what you say.

[NickFeek]

Sunny,

 

It is not shaming to tell the truth. He does not have No Contact with the OW. The intent is irrelevant. He it might be low contact, but it is not No contact.

 

I am saying his wife cannot move forward as long as there is contact. This is a primary tenet for reconcilation after infidelity. It can't always be done immediately due to finances when its a workplace issue, but it must be done some point as soon as possible. It is not specific to him but is a cornerstone in reconciliation.

 

I am not shaming him into any unhappy future. He can leave at any point.

 

You guys are telling him to leave to leave now. Fair enough! But if he wants to continue to fight for his marriage, then he needs to show his wife that he is a better man.

 

You can bash her all you want, but none of it changes HIS ACTIONS towards her.

 

Lying, cheating, losing his temper, making ultimatums, blaming his partner for HER feelings, and putting his own wants first are HIS issues that are going to cause him problems no matter what relationship he is in.

 

Nick, I don't mean to bash you personally- I have my own list of issues, we all have them. We all get to try to work them out in our relationships.

 

But given that you say you want to try to stay married, you might as well work on these issues now with your wife. God knows you'll be challenged! But if you can, you will show her that you are in fact trustworthy.

 

Hey, it still might now help. She still might never overcome her issues. She might never be able to truly be intimate with you. At the very worst, you will have become a better guy for the next woman in your life.

 

See but that's what gets me about these posts of yours. You are taking my acknowledgment of past bad behavior and using it as ammunition against any other argument I have about our mutual culpability in the state of our marriage, however it's weighed. Not only have I been listening intently to what my wife feels she's missing or is unhappy with re my behavior, I have made changes of behavior, mind & heart in order to show her how sincere I am in improving our relationship. I grant that contact of any kind with the OW is still a big thorn, but considering the 99 other things I've done in the past six months alone, I can't agree that I've shown NO good faith or intent. I understand that she's stuck because of what I did, but knowing her better than anyone I can tell you that she's been stuck before for things related and UNrelated to me, and in every case she has just shoved it deeper down until it shut that part of her off.

 

In my book, we BOTH need to show good faith here. For any healthy relationship to be built, we BOTH need to come to the table.

[knitwit]

Hey so I appreciate all the time you took here, and I'd love to answer all your points & give it the time it deserves. But it's so full of assumptions, inaccuracies, bias, and a clear animosity towards me or people like me, that I just can't respond. Thanks anyway.

 

Hi Nick,

 

I am sorry you see it that way. I am just telling you what I see my perspective. It's just one stranger's words on the internet.

 

I do wish the best for you and your family, whatever the outcome turns out to be!

[NickFeek]

Hi Nick,

 

I am sorry you see it that way. I am just telling you what I see my perspective. It's just one stranger's words on the internet.

 

I do wish the best for you and your family, whatever the outcome turns out to be!

 

It's not that I don't appreciate it. You obviously took lots of time & thought and that means a lot to me. I just think it's not fully supported by the facts here.

 

I can & will say over & over how sorry I am & how much I regret my actions. But even our therapist is at a loss to explain why her response is so disproportionate to what happened. I am not at all saying she shouldn't feel hurt, betrayed, mistrustful. In fact on days when she is feeling generous towards me - when that person I fell in love with shines through - I realize more than ever how much I hurt her & it kills me.

 

But placed in the context of our total relationship, this defines neither me as a husband/person NOR our marriage. And until she can remember that & put it in its proper context (without diminishing its importance in and of itself), we will make no progress.

[knitwit]

See but that's what gets me about these posts of yours. You are taking my acknowledgment of past bad behavior and using it as ammunition against any other argument I have about our mutual culpability in the state of our marriage, however it's weighed. Not only have I been listening intently to what my wife feels she's missing or is unhappy with re my behavior, I have made changes of behavior, mind & heart in order to show her how sincere I am in improving our relationship. I grant that contact of any kind with the OW is still a big thorn, but considering the 99 other things I've done in the past six months alone, I can't agree that I've shown NO good faith or intent. I understand that she's stuck because of what I did, but knowing her better than anyone I can tell you that she's been stuck before for things related and UNrelated to me, and in every case she has just shoved it deeper down until it shut that part of her off.

 

In my book, we BOTH need to show good faith here. For any healthy relationship to be built, we BOTH need to come to the table.

 

Nick, not all sins are equal.

 

Some things you do will hurt her more than others.

 

The OW at work thing is HUGE. HUGE!!!

 

It is unrealistic to think that she is going to get over the infidelity when she knows you have either some contact or the possibility of contact with the OW every day you go into work. It sets the clock back to zero on a very frequent basis.

 

I am saying this because it is Step 1 for getting over any serious break-up, affair or not, and it is a HUGE step 1 for infidelity reconcilation.

 

Your wife has to get to a healthier place before she can help you, or even really help herself. This is just reality. You can see that she is still all over the place! You have to help her, and it does have to be you going first, if it is going to happen at all.

 

I see that you are trying! But I think that you are missing your target. It is like trying to get a plant healthy by putting it in an oxygen chamber, when what the plant needs is carbon dioxide.

 

I am not trying to be a smart-ass, but obviously what you guys are trying is not working.

 

There's a lot of advice on here to just throw in the towel. That is one option.

 

I took a look at your post and told you what I saw as likely barriers to your success. I am trying to show you another option. But like I said, these are just one stranger's words on an interet, offering up another perspective.

[2sunny]

I am saying his wife cannot move forward as long as there is contact. This is a primary tenet for reconcilation after infidelity. It can't always be done immediately due to finances when its a workplace issue, but it must be done some point as soon as possible. It is not specific to him but is a cornerstone in reconciliation.

 

really? are you his wife? how do you know exactly what she needs?

 

primary tenet after infidelity - nope - generally is to move towards rebuilding trust... and then moving toward forgiveness...

 

i'd love to see your evidence that it works best YOUR way...

 

no contact does not even ALWAYS insure the mind is invested in repairing a M... and the damage the cheater has caused. IF a spouse still thinks about their affair person - to the point of taking up space within their mind - then that is still NC - but still NOT fair to the marriage.

 

i don't see your words holding the merit you want it to - there are MANY ways of cheating - and repairing the damage caused.

 

BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A HEALTHY MARRIAGE GET TO THAT PLACE WHEN ONE SPOUSE REFUSES THE EFFORTS OF THE CHEATER TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE THEY CAUSED - BY HOLDING THAT POWER OVER THE CHEATER'S HEAD FOR SHAME AND GUILT - BY NOT BEING WILLING TO FORGIVE AND MOVE TO A BETTER PLACE IN THE MARRIAGE.

[knitwit]

It's not that I don't appreciate it. You obviously took lots of time & thought and that means a lot to me. I just think it's not fully supported by the facts here.

 

I can & will say over & over how sorry I am & how much I regret my actions. But even our therapist is at a loss to explain why her response is so disproportionate to what happened. I am not at all saying she shouldn't feel hurt, betrayed, mistrustful. In fact on days when she is feeling generous towards me - when that person I fell in love with shines through - I realize more than ever how much I hurt her & it kills me.

 

But placed in the context of our total relationship, this defines neither me as a husband/person NOR our marriage. And until she can remember that & put it in its proper context (without diminishing its importance in and of itself), we will make no progress.

 

Hey, I have always appreciated your posts. You tell your truth and you keep going. I think that is awesome.

 

It is obvious to me that your MC isn't a specialist in infidelity reconcilation. If she were, she would have told you that you need to leave your job sometime soon.

 

Her response is NOT disproportionate to what happened. Especially when she is contantly triggered by your job. Nearly every day goes back to zero for her.

 

Please, go post and read on the Infidelity section. I will again recommend MarriageBuilders, go look at the What Every Couple Needs to Know about Infidelity video (stay away from the forums, though, except perhaps to lurk. They are so black and white!). I am not making this up- there is a decent amount of literature now about how couples can survive infidelity.

 

You two obviously love each other, and you both are obviously trying. I have a very different perspective than most of the posters who have been responding to your thread. I believe you two CAN make it. I am willing to bet that you can have an excellent marriage, far better than what you've had so far.

 

I am not someone who normally thinks this, BTW. In most case, I think divorce is the best and most likely outcome. I've been fortunate not to experience infidelity in my own marriage (so far), but I've seen it and have done a ton of research on it. I think you are different, though, because you BOTH do want it (at least for now.)

 

At some point, you can and will get past the infidelity. It does not- and in fact, CANNOT- be the defining aspect of your marriage if it is going to survive.

 

But you need to put down the sword, the fighting, the anger first. You have to do whatever it takes to help your wife get past this first and ongoing wound. It is ongoing because of the job, and because you insist on making her contribution to the healing equal at this point. Stop that.

 

You will get over the hurt and guilt and shame when you are truly dedicated to helping her heal. You have the right idea but the wrong tools and plan. Get the right tools and plan and I think you will have a great outcome.