25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

In my marriage I played a role that betrayed myself ... I would "dumb myself down" so my husband wouldn't feel my intelligence as a threat - so he would feel "better about himself" but it cost me something to betray myself that way.

 

I see it here - you stooping down to her emotional level so she feels better, less insecure. It's a very unrealistic approach. You are reaching backwards... Because you KNOW she doesn't want to reveal her truth because she's stuck in her pain.

 

So you are now stuck in the pain as well.

 

Instead of skipping ahead where you KNOW in your gut you belong... You ran backwards to "help her" stay comfortable but stuck.

 

This all makes sense, and I do see what you mean, especially the last sentence. But I think the real problem here is the situation I've created by cheating, in that I have placed her in a position that gives her the righteous anger she needs to hold onto her comfort zone, and I've given up my leverage so to speak. It's not just a matter of wading through the bad parts of our relationship, it's also getting us back to where we left off before I cheated & lied. THAT'S been the biggest struggle here. I'm perfectly ready to stand my ground & insist on action from her, but I need to have that solid ground back first, and just as with many infidelity situations, I'm not sure that's possible.

[NickFeek]

Here's a recent thread that looks familiar... Read it - some people there show good reason to find some change through sex therapy - when they followed the "action portion of the homework assigned"

 

Ah dang - I can't get it to copy... The posters name is Floridaman search for his thread, ok?

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253953

 

Ok - edited to try again - hope it works!

 

That is a somewhat familiar story!

 

Our session is later today, and I plan to bring up one very important thing that may illustrate to you why sex therapy seems like a pipe dream (I may have gone over some of this way earlier here).

 

We have touched briefly on sex in two or three sessions, but have not dug deep. I don't want to be petty, but I attribute that ALL to her reluctance to go there. She said both before and after our very first session that the subject IN DETAIL would be off limits. We've had SO MUCH else to talk about that I didn't push the issue. But now we're starting to come around to it again. My gut tells me holy hell will break loose if I just drop into the subject without warning. So I plan to tell the doctor that there are so many things we are not discussing about our past because they've been prohibited. I STILL think that will anger my wife so much that she'll shut down, but at this point I'm so frustrated with her lack of forward motion that it needs to be done.

 

I have suggested sex therapy several times over the years, and she shoots it down like lightning every time. The odds of her having agreed to this at anytime in the past were slim. After my infidelity, they are below zero.

 

What's sad is I'm actually considering living a double life just to keep the home front intact & still have a way to feel loved & satisfied. I don't think my conscience could handle it, but I'm feeling particularly imprisoned.

[2sunny]

That is a somewhat familiar story!

 

Our session is later today, and I plan to bring up one very important thing that may illustrate to you why sex therapy seems like a pipe dream (I may have gone over some of this way earlier here).

 

We have touched briefly on sex in two or three sessions, but have not dug deep. I don't want to be petty, but I attribute that ALL to her reluctance to go there. She said both before and after our very first session that the subject IN DETAIL would be off limits. We've had SO MUCH else to talk about that I didn't push the issue. But now we're starting to come around to it again. My gut tells me holy hell will break loose if I just drop into the subject without warning. So I plan to tell the doctor that there are so many things we are not discussing about our past because they've been prohibited. I STILL think that will anger my wife so much that she'll shut down, but at this point I'm so frustrated with her lack of forward motion that it needs to be done.

 

I have suggested sex therapy several times over the years, and she shoots it down like lightning every time. The odds of her having agreed to this at anytime in the past were slim. After my infidelity, they are below zero.

 

What's sad is I'm actually considering living a double life just to keep the home front intact & still have a way to feel loved & satisfied. I don't think my conscience could handle it, but I'm feeling particularly imprisoned.

 

 

She KNOWS this is not a normal sex life - and it's NOT! Yet she states she won't get help in this area. That's telling you she expects you to live with what little she offers. You can - as that is obviously what she expects.

 

And to your cheating - she was this way BEFORE you cheated! I never say this - but what is she thinking? She's not willing to give seas part of the M but she wants you to live without it? And she expects you to feel badly about expecting it to be discussed? NO! It's all backwards! Talk about it! How can you twofer helpif you don't?

 

You have already stunted your spiritual side in order to please her inner demons... Does she expect you to sell your soul to the devil to stay married to her? Looks like it!

 

SHE also participated in the cheating... But she won't acknowledge that! Some SMALL part of the way SHE participated drove you to make choices you feel badly about... But IF she had been willing to have and ENJOY sex regularly I bet you wouldn't have strayed. I'd tell her THAT today! When she decides to also work on her sex issues is when you may make some progress.

 

It like she expects Togo to counseling but not address the big issue. A healthy M can't be obtained when she's unwilling to talk about what's bothering you! It's cruel on her part! It makes her attempt at counseling look like a sham! No wonder you two haven't made great strides! She's not talking about what's bothering her!

 

I think she shows severe signs of sexual abuse in her child hood. And IF she won't address THAT - you can expect to live this way with her forever, of you stay.

[NickFeek]

She KNOWS this is not a normal sex life - and it's NOT! Yet she states she won't get help in this area. That's telling you she expects you to live with what little she offers. You can - as that is obviously what she expects.

 

And to your cheating - she was this way BEFORE you cheated! I never say this - but what is she thinking? She's not willing to give seas part of the M but she wants you to live without it? And she expects you to feel badly about expecting it to be discussed? NO! It's all backwards! Talk about it! How can you twofer helpif you don't?

 

You have already stunted your spiritual side in order to please her inner demons... Does she expect you to sell your soul to the devil to stay married to her? Looks like it!

 

SHE also participated in the cheating... But she won't acknowledge that! Some SMALL part of the way SHE participated drove you to make choices you feel badly about... But IF she had been willing to have and ENJOY sex regularly I bet you wouldn't have strayed. I'd tell her THAT today! When she decides to also work on her sex issues is when you may make some progress.

 

It like she expects Togo to counseling but not address the big issue. A healthy M can't be obtained when she's unwilling to talk about what's bothering you! It's cruel on her part! It makes her attempt at counseling look like a sham! No wonder you two haven't made great strides! She's not talking about what's bothering her!

 

I think she shows severe signs of sexual abuse in her child hood. And IF she won't address THAT - you can expect to live this way with her forever, of you stay.

 

That's a whole lot of truth right there, and any difference of opinion I might have is extremely negligible.

 

I just had a solo session with the counselor, and it was very productive. We talked a lot about where she needs to go in terms of talk, emotion and action, and the things preventing her from getting there. And while the doc was more evenhanded than your post, you two are in agreement about most of it.

 

I feel so much better having said my peace to the doc. The good things are she kind of knew all this anyway, but now she also sees that my situation is giantly frustrating and obstacle laden. She expressed a course of action and set of goals for my wife that I completely agree with. Now at least I feel like it won't all be about my cheating.

 

I was unwilling to breach my wife's trust and discuss the grittier details. But u made that very clear to the doc - clear that I wild love for us to get into all that, further that it's the ONLY WAY we can make any actual progress. She also set forth some action items for us, some of which I/we already do.

 

I'm still quite skeptical that my wife will ever have the courage to go there, and I'm not entirely encouraged. But I'm much more reassured that our doctor really dies understand the pitfalls and the dynamic as a whole.

[2sunny]

That is good progress being able to give the counselor your truth in this situation.

 

It brings some hope if this counselor understands what is real - and what roadblocks are there. NOTaddressing what is in the way of your happiness would never bring tht hope.

 

Whether your wife likes it or not - certain issues need to be addressed in order to have hope. How she participated or doesn't participate plays aHIGe role in why your M is in this place and why you stepped out. I know it's not ALL on her - yet you two must deal with what is REAL - and her believing that NOT discussing it is not helping. You can't go along with her limited plan and figure it's going to be ok.

 

Good work taking action and putting things out on the table!

 

What was her gut feeling about your wife's possible abuse inher past? Did she state a plan to address her ill feelings?

 

I wouldn't rule out hypnosis in her case... I think her experiences from past are shoved SO FAR down she's made herself unwilling to admit to herself what may have affected her in such a profound way..

[trippi1432]

Just have to ask...2Sunny, were you sexually abused as a child?

[2sunny]

No, I wasn't. But have worked with many who have faced that demon and gotten to a place of no longer allowing it to hold so much power over their current happiness.

 

Mine was a different type of abuse I had to get past.

Edited November 5, 2011 by 2sunny

[NickFeek]

That is good progress being able to give the counselor your truth in this situation.

 

It brings some hope if this counselor understands what is real - and what roadblocks are there. NOTaddressing what is in the way of your happiness would never bring tht hope.

 

Whether your wife likes it or not - certain issues need to be addressed in order to have hope. How she participated or doesn't participate plays aHIGe role in why your M is in this place and why you stepped out. I know it's not ALL on her - yet you two must deal with what is REAL - and her believing that NOT discussing it is not helping. You can't go along with her limited plan and figure it's going to be ok.

 

Good work taking action and putting things out on the table!

 

What was her gut feeling about your wife's possible abuse inher past? Did she state a plan to address her ill feelings?

 

I wouldn't rule out hypnosis in her case... I think her experiences from past are shoved SO FAR down she's made herself unwilling to admit to herself what may have affected her in such a profound way..

 

Thanks. I still feel like I should be doing more, but as you say there are things only she can & should do, and I can't make her do them.

 

The doctor didn't directly mention abuse, but she did state a plan to address both her ill feelings and her past in general. She also said she understands what an incredibly tall task it is. I like that she's both realistic AND optimistic - in terms of the potential for treatment anyway.

[Floridaman]

So you took an otherwise typical marriage and went outside of it because you did not use proper conflict-solving skills.

 

So by being conflict-avoidant you took your legitimate complaints aside and did damage to your relationship. Now your question to everyone here is whether or not you should avoid working on the issues and conflicts in your marriage and avoid them again by leaving it. I am going to vote "No. Not unless you like a lot more pain then what you have been going through, plus a lot of shame for having trainwrecked a 25-year marriage because of avoidance."

 

......

 

If it isn't helping your marriage, toss it. Try this for the next 18 months and then re-evaluate. You can spend 18 months on trying to improve something that has lasted 25 years, right?

 

The fact that your wife has responded reasonably and not kicked your ass to the curb speaks volumes. I tried the same with my H and it seems that often wayward spouses don't get the blessing that they have been given in a spouse that is respectful and willing to work through things. I strongly encourage you to re-evaluating your standing in the marriage and look less at your wife's fault and more at your personal responsibility in changing the dynamic in it. It is much more respectable and empowering.

Nick,

I've read only the first page of posts (it's a big 34-page thread !!) but plan to read more, as I can.

Want to say the advice you're getting, particularly from DreamingOfTigers, looks sound.

The CP issue makes sense too.

Understand the posts I've read are from April, so things may have changed (hopefully for the better:)).

 

Maybe you address this later, but was your wife a virgin or inexperienced when you married her? I know you two held off until marriage, a good thing IMO, and then it took 2 yrs. to consummate (not so good, of course).

Not sayin' virgins or inexperienced people have a lot of sex hangups, but maybe she has some irrational guilt or fears about sexual intimacy.

 

I'm experiencing something similar in terms of sexual frequency.

My wife, who didn't have much sexual experience before meeting me (she had one partner, a former fiance), very rarely lets me ML with her, and it's killing me.

Refusal-Long time refused & considering leaving...

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t253953/

 

So I know what you're going through, though we don't have kids and haven't been married as long as you.

 

Just want to chime-in and say I'm reading the thread.

 

 

 

Here's a recent thread that looks familiar... Read it - some people there show good reason to find some change through sex therapy - when they followed the "action portion of the homework assigned"

 

Ah dang - I can't get it to copy... The posters name is Floridaman search for his thread, ok?

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253953

 

Ok - edited to try again - hope it works!

Works. Scrolled up a little to see the latest before proceeding with page 2.

Glad to see the link, 2sunny.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

I have to say that I do agree with some of what 2 Sunny has said here....you cannot change her or fix it for her, she has to want to do that.

 

Something else, she is strong-willed and independent....she doesn't know how to be vulnerable and that affects the bedroom....whether it is something from her past that she won't admit or a trust issue, her lack of vulnerability obscures the intimacy.

 

Another question - how much do you lead in the personal relationship with your wife? A woman in your wife's position, strong-willed and independent typically tries to lead all the time...sometimes without even realizing it. Is there any balance in your marriage where sometimes you lead and where she does?

 

This is good....

May be applicable to my situation.

Need to get mine to be "more vulnerable" in our bedroom....

[trippi1432]

No, I wasn't. But have worked with many who have faced that demon and gotten to a place of no longer allowing it to hold so much power over their current happiness.

 

Mine was a different type of abuse I had to get past.

 

 

Okay...thanks..explains a lot....for the record, it is about not letting people hold power over you...it really does depend on how long the abuse lasts....victim or survivor...most men damn me for being a survivor....and I say F them. For women who are survivors..the last thing they want is a man who makes himself a victim. Responsible relationships typically happen when both partners are honest with their feelings, their lives...and where things are going. Neither can ever be vulnerable to each other until they both stop being victims.

[2sunny]

Trippi - I'm the warrior! Not even willing to settle ( for myself) as a survivor. And I'll never allow myself to be the victim again - it would kill the spirit of me - I already died once - never going back and won't live in fear for one minute!

 

Life is too short! I got a chance to live again - and I'm never gonna settle! I deserve to be completely happy each day, if anything/anyone gets in the way of that - I choose to change things up!

[2sunny]

Expectations limit us - and since you keep expecting your W to change slowly - that's exactly what you're getting. You are limiting yourself with those expectations.

 

When I want change - I make sure I start making things happen to get to that point.

 

What changes are YOU going to be sure happen TODAY?

 

Waiting to see these changes hasn't made them happen. You may need to just be honest and state what YOU expect... Today! And either she doesn't them with you or you find other ways to make them happen without her participating! And you tell her THAT! She has choices, yes! But she keeps choosing to hurt you by expecting that you live without your sense of what happiness looks like... That's not loving behavior.

 

Make changes each day that get YOU what you expect out of life. Just be honest as you approach those changes!

[NickFeek]

This is good....

May be applicable to my situation.

Need to get mine to be "more vulnerable" in our bedroom....

 

Hi. Thanks for reading some of this. I read through a bit of yours and it hurt so much. I feel what you're going through deeply, despite the differing contexts. I can tell you also love your wife so much and would prefer to work it all out rather than separate. The frustration, pain and loneliness can be unbearable, especially when you know a good deal of your fate is being determined by your spouse and her unwillingness to fully open up and participate.

 

So much of the advice on this forum is highly applicable and WOULD BE a huge help, except for the fact that my wife would reject 90% of it, and has already to a large degree. Seeing "me" from the outside like this, I'm sad to say, doesn't help me come up with answers for either of us. Not easy ones anyway.

 

I have deliberately put on hold some of these intimacy issues so my wife could get comfortable with the counseling process and be allowed to speak out on everything that's bothering her and that I've done to her. But I'm finding that she's not getting much more comfortable at all, and these issues unaddressed are only going to get worse. I'm getting ready to hire the bullet, upset the apple cart, and lay it all out. And I am about 85% certain she will respond so negatively that she'd rather leave than admit/address/acquiesce. Bresks my heart every day.

[NickFeek]

Expectations limit us - and since you keep expecting your W to change slowly - that's exactly what you're getting. You are limiting yourself with those expectations.

 

When I want change - I make sure I start making things happen to get to that point.

 

What changes are YOU going to be sure happen TODAY?

 

Waiting to see these changes hasn't made them happen. You may need to just be honest and state what YOU expect... Today! And either she doesn't them with you or you find other ways to make them happen without her participating! And you tell her THAT! She has choices, yes! But she keeps choosing to hurt you by expecting that you live without your sense of what happiness looks like... That's not loving behavior.

 

Make changes each day that get YOU what you expect out of life. Just be honest as you approach those changes!

 

I hear you. And I love the idea of stating what I expect, rather than what I want. It's virtually the same, but stated that way it may circumvent her normal defensiveness and shutting down. I'm going to try that this week.

[2sunny]

Here's the disconnect:

 

You state you're not happy with the way she participates. You state you need change... She agrees to work on it.

 

She "hears you" state that you need A, B and C changes for staying long term. She acknowledges but doesn't DO all that she hears, yet expects YOU to live unhappy days knowing how and what she COULDDO differently to change it.

 

Then she blames you because she never (in HER mind) intended to DO those changes.

 

Instead she gives you J, K and L - knowing you expect A, B and C... And you take her bait of J, K and L - thinking magically that MAYBE it will become your idea and expectation of A, B and C.

 

When, in reality - she's only willing to give you J,K and L - is when you come to accept that she is only gonna give what SHE CAN and accept that's all she can offer. Accept it. Move forward. When people say they are working on it - they SHOW evidence of moving TOWARD that goal - not resistance in getting there.

 

Any resistance on HER part shows she isn't intending to get to the goal. Her goal may simply be different than yours.

 

Doesn't mean you don't love each other... Just means different ideas and intention of what's expected.

 

But, IF she KNOWS she's never intending to give you A,B and C - but isn't telling you (by not giving you HER truth) then she has you wasting time chasing that illusion that you MIGHT get A, B and C -

[NickFeek]

Here's the disconnect:

 

I wish I could say it's a disconnect. What's even sadder is that I know it all too well, and I'm very connected with this reality - more than ever. I am struggling with deciding what I can live with, knowing in my heart there's a good chance I will NEVER see A B C with her. I love her enough to keep giving her these chances, but you're right in saying how can she call what I get from her love. There's a reckoning that has to come, and this time she has to be ready to jump right in or admit she never will.

[2sunny]

Even if she's willing to give you what's in the middle - say, f, g and h - it's still not her efforts to give you what you expect, need for it to look like love.

 

Months have now passed - she KNOWS exactly what you want from her - she knew it a year ago - yet she hasn't moved into the action necessary to make it a reality! Giving someone time to change - change behavior - is a good thing! But when the person resists change enough to show evidence that they don't intend to change - is when it's time to accept that it's just not gonna happen.

 

Like I said - doesn't mean she doesn't love you - just means her fear of change is too great to step into changing her behavior.

[NickFeek]

Even if she's willing to give you what's in the middle - say, f, g and h - it's still not her efforts to give you what you expect, need for it to look like love.

 

Months have now passed - she KNOWS exactly what you want from her - she knew it a year ago - yet she hasn't moved into the action necessary to make it a reality! Giving someone time to change - change behavior - is a good thing! But when the person resists change enough to show evidence that they don't intend to change - is when it's time to accept that it's just not gonna happen.

 

Like I said - doesn't mean she doesn't love you - just means her fear of change is too great to step into changing her behavior.

 

I would love to have the opportunity to know if FGH would be enough for me in the context of all the positives that exist already. No way to say until I really feel it.

 

Your second paragraph is absolutely right. I know I move slower than you might recommend, but even I am getting to the point where I need to see some evidence of intent to change, or I am going to completely lose hope and heart.

[trippi1432]

Nick, I don't feel that you are moving slower than what needs to be on this situation, it's easy for people to tell you the pace you should be keeping if they aren't walking in your shoes. In all actuality, if Ms. Nick were here telling the story, we would all be applauding her for putting in the necessary stops in the beginning when she found out about the affair. She requested passwords to accounts, stop seeing her and never work with that woman again. That's typically the first thing you see on this site when someone who has been cheated on hits the boards.

 

What is different, is that you have come here to try and gain some understanding to your situation...and in some cases, have been given validation that she is the reason you strayed....the lack of a sex life that you can live with. I still say BS to that...it was both of you! Complacency is the mother of all laziness, head in the sand, bury it and sweep it under the rug. To be honest, I believe that you have been complacent in your therapy. How much does your MC know about the affair, obviously neither of you have really addressed the sex issue and has she addressed why she would rather work all the time than come home to her family. Does her work make her feel more wanted, needed, cared for....does her career give her more emotional stimulation, emotional security....does she even know what balance looks like? How well, after 20 years do you really know her? Where is her safe haven, where does she feel most secure....I'm not looking for a "anytime she can be away from me" sort of victim mentality answer...I'm looking for a man who truly knows his wife emotionally. Not physically....I'm looking for you to get your mind off your tally-whacker for a moment and quit holding your wife to a standard of a brief fling. True intimacy is an emotional blanket where two people can be exactly who they are and feel safe in those moments together...it is NOT about the physical, that is a by-product of pure freedom that comes when the emotional side has been satisfied.

 

There are many reasons why people lose true intimacy...it could be one partner putting too much of their happiness on the other, it can be one partner losing touch with themselves or the other person due to obligations, it can come from self-esteem issues....what drove you to therapy 10 years ago, to seek out those things that you needed to do to better yourself? I know that your side of the story is that she didn't have sex right after the marriage...but honestly, you were both young and inexperienced. I personally feel that a lot of your unrest is more in you needing to be self-fulfilled with a career of your own that you can be proud of, you have a creative spirit and ideas that you want to explore and all of this has become a catalyst for that change you want to get to.

 

Laying the sex card on her as validation to the affair and the destruction of your marriage is unfair. Nick wants to be fulfilled, on a whole 360 degree level. I bet you would even be willing for a trade off. To be honest, I think that Ms. Nick already did a trade off knowing she couldn't fulfill you and found her own happiness in her job...what she is attempting to do now that she is still being slightly berated for, is find balance. Does she want to appease you...I'm sure she does...but she may have given up on pleasing you as she no longer knows how to..why?? Complacency. Why? Because now Nick holds a card that sex as he knew it with a brief fling was more satisfying than what he knew with his wife of 20 years....so, does she have righteous anger. I would say yes. It's not just up to you to determine your own happiness, it's up to her as well to determine hers...it's up to BOTH of you to be willing to make the necessary changes to make that work.

 

Personally, I see her being completely happy without you..she has already defined hers...she may be like many of my career driven friends...happy in being alone and secluded with their brief flings....you have been searching...for years....and you found that answer in a brief fling who endorsed your emotional and sexual needs...made you feel important...made you feel that you could conquer the world. Until Nick truly knows, outside of physical intimacy, what will satisfy Nick...Ms. Nick will continue to find her own happiness outside of coming home to people who are dissatisfied. Emotional support Nick....how much of that have you given over the years to mother-hood, her career, her education...etc? Do you need it more than her? Have you told her that you need that from her? Stop trying to manipulate the situation with the counselor and be open and emotionally honest...mistakes were made on both sides. You need your wife to see you as a desirable man in your marriage....if the emotional intimacy wasn't there for years...you need to help create that.

 

Sorry, in advance, if this post furrows your brow.

[2sunny]

Trippi - you state the situation like he hasn't been honest with his W - like he hasn't given it effort and time for forgiveness and change.

 

As if he hasn't had enough time and outside help to see what her intentions are.

 

He has. If you read the posts - he has, from what he describes.

 

At some point - which only Nick knows or will know by her actions/inaction - a person usually draws a conclusion that the partner is either working with them to change and grow the M to a better place or they're just using a ton of resistance to not grow to a healthier place.

 

I pointed out that it may be useful to ask if she INTENDS to grow the M healthier.

 

The fact that she wanted sex to be excluded from the therapist isn't promising... How can that area possibly get better if she's unwilling to open her mind enough to ask for help?

 

If her resistance is strong - you may not ever see change. I wish she'd open her mind - set her ego and preconceived notions aside and be willing to discuss ideas to at least try out. Most folks would - given the dire circumstances - she must be roadblocked by something big... Has she ever tried hypnosis to see what might be stuffed so far down under there that she stays frozen in fear? What about EMDR?

 

I keep brainstorming about other helpful ideas but I'm at a loss now with her resistance. Something must be in her way...

Edited November 8, 2011 by 2sunny

[trippi1432]

Trippi - you state the situation like he hasn't been honest with his W - like he hasn't given it effort and time for forgiveness and change.

 

As if he hasn't had enough time and outside help to see what her intentions are.

 

He has. If you read the posts - he has, from what he describes.

 

Read HIS posts....we only have his story...

 

At some point - which only Nick knows or will know by her actions/inaction - a person usually draws a conclusion that the partner is either working with them to change and grow the M to a better place or they're just using a ton of resistance to not grow to a healthier place.

 

When it is not working, it's typically because one person is doing all the talking..she may not have found her voice...but I bet she knows what makes her happier...and in the interim, she appeases..why, maybe she doesn't want to hurt his feelings. I just get this gist that Nick is an emotional sort of man, but keeps it buried....he only comes out in therapy where it feels safe...they both probably do this.

 

I pointed out that it may be useful to ask if she INTENDS to grow the M healthier.

 

The fact that she wanted sex to be excluded from the therapist isn't promising... How can that area possibly get better if she's unwilling to open her mind enough to ask for help?

 

If her resistance is strong - you may not ever see change. I wish she'd open her mind - set her ego and preconceived notions aside and be willing to discuss ideas to at least try out. Most folks would - given the dire circumstances - she must be roadblocked by something big... Has she ever tried hypnosis to see what might be stuffed so far down under there that she stays frozen in fear? What about EMDR?

 

If you found your happiness 2Sunny, would you let someone take it away because they needed to manipulate you...hardly. Not if they left you emotionally a long time ago...these two lost each other emotionally....they need to find their way back. Forcing it won't bode well for either...that's why we have seen so much stalemate.

 

I keep brainstorming about other helpful ideas but I'm at a loss now with her resistance. Something must be in her way...

 

I still do not agree on the sexual abuse. I do know some who have kept it a family secret for over 20 years....typically, they are alone and do not want a man in their life...no kids...no long term relationships. The ones who continue to allow it to ruin their relationships only allow someone who was hurtful have power and control over their lives...the ones who overcome that typically have power and control over their lives....seems to me Ms. Nick has that and knows what makes her happy. I think she gave up trying to make Nick happy as he hasn't defined what happy is for himself outside of the bedroom.

[NickFeek]

Sorry, in advance, if this post furrows your brow.

 

This post only furrows my brow because it seems to ignore a great swath of the 90+ pages of facts. I do agree with many of your points, but there are a few major falsities or assumptions I have to address:

 

1. No question we've both been complacent for much of our marriage. But it is absolutely 1000% false that I have been complacent in therapy. What you may be forgetting, or maybe I didn't state it clearly, is that my wife has point blank forbidden us to talk about our sex life in therapy. I could go on for pages explaining why this is the case, why it's no surprise, why I've respected this demand for now, and why the wall eventually has to be breached no matter what. Suffice it to say I know my wife SO WELL, and have known her SO WELL FOR SO MANY YEARS, that this is not just a cause for procedural concern (i.e. getting comfortable with the therapy process or giving her time to process my infidelity), but it is endemic to the problems in our marriage and always has been.

2. I take full responsibility for my part in allowing the above to persist for so many years. YET I ALSO, many times in the past, have pleaded with her to seek therapy of any kind - individual, sexual, couples - and she has resisted up until now. And even now, going through the process, she is resisting addressing a good 80% of our history. I am not holding my wife to the standard of a fling. I'm holding her to the standards of A. What a healthy marriage should be, especially after 25 years, and B. What I need & want, what I would love to give her in return, both of which we both deserve, and both of which I've articulated to her time and again over the years with very little progress or action.

3. I do not blame her or her reticence for my cheating. That was my fault, and though it's brought so many things to the forefront, I still consider it a mistake that has set us back in a GIANT way. So please preach to someone else who is ACTUALLY blaming their spouse for their own actions.

4. I have been exploring more with her & the doctor & within myself what her career means to her, and I've been developing a higher respect of & appreciation for all she goes through every day/week. I do admit I lost touch with what this meant to her through our child years. SO LET ME BE CLEAR - if you have not been keeping up with this post I completely understand that, who could! - I have stated several times in the past few weeks that I no longer berate her or begrudge her what she needs to do for her job. I own up to doing that for a good couple of years - off & on, but no more.

5. IF there has been any "trade-off" for my wife re career vs. intimacy, it's because of BOTH of our failures, and most especially because she has never been comfortable with intimacy of any kind. I have reached out to her in fits & starts for years. I have tried hard to understand her fears. I have certainly gotten frustrated & fed up at times, and I've made mistakes. But I have ALWAYS come back to trying things "her way", as well as taking the initiative in gentle ways to try to open her up more. And what has worked on the whole has been exactly ZERO. So for you or anyone to claim that her PRIMARY effort has been to find balance is utterly ridiculous. I have done everything I can to help her, and to help her to seek help on her own, and she has resisted at every turn. Do I feel that my actions have made her more reluctant? Yes. But on the whole - for TWENTY-FIVE YEARS - I have been a good partner, a loving partner, a patient partner, a great father, a hard worker, a friend, a guide, etc. etc. etc. So please don't make the gross error & overblown miscalculation that my wife has also made & judge me or our marriage on my recent actions. That's a small slice of a gigantic pie, one I will regret forever, but still not NEARLY the definition of me or our marriage.

6. I'm pretty happy with my career as it stands now. I'm happy with my children & "home" life as well. The weak link has always been our interpersonal relationship. I have asked her POINT BLANK what it is that would make her happy, and she has never come up with a response. It's either "not this" or "I don't know". Both of those are valid & deserve serious consideration, but they also illustrate how deeply she's buried herself year after year. I have asked her a million times in our life to take care of herself more, to do for herself more. She never does, and that hurts all of us.

7. I want her to be happy no matter where she is or who she's with, but I can tell you that, until she can wrench her personal demons from out of her closet & wrestle them to the ground - something I've tried so hard to help her do since her teens - she will not be happy anywhere or with anyone. I've even said to her: Go. If you need to be away from me to figure things out I totally understand. She doesn't want to. Nor is she very happy at home right now. Bottom line is she doesn't know what will make her happy because she doesn't know herself!

8. I have always validated her motherhood and her intelligence & her political and social leanings and her accomplishments & the respect her coworkers & bosses have given her. No, I have not validated her career - until recently, and I regret that. Do I need more than she does? Yes. That's my nature. She has known that since we were 17. She should continue to know that, and she should have continued to provide that, assuming she loved me. Believe me, her drifting away emotionally & physically came LONG BEFORE I berated her for coming home at 9-10pm every night, and LONG BEFORE I cheated.

9. I am extremely emotionally honest in therapy. So much so that our doctor has stated openly that it's obvious I'm more comfortable & experienced with the process than my wife. My wife agrees. The doctor has all but pleaded with my wife to be more emotionally open, more forthcoming about our past, her past, her inner life. She's getting there, but not by much yet. I have spent the majority of our sessions owning up to my mistakes, my personal demons, my needs, my issues, what have you, and have listened to my wife & taken to heart all the ways in which she hurts, in which she doesn't understand why the affair happened. AND WHAT THE DOCTOR SAYS is two things: A. Nothing that existed in our marriage (or didn't) is justification for what I did; but B. We will not heal as a couple or truly understand what happened & how to move forward until MY WIFE can own up to her mistakes. She is reluctant to do so because she feels it would diminish her righteous hurt. It would not. Neither I nor the doctor would ever do that.

 

I'm sorry this is so long, and I'm more than willing to keep all of this open for discussion. I just needed to recharacterize things in a more accurate way.

[NickFeek]

I still do not agree on the sexual abuse. I do know some who have kept it a family secret for over 20 years....typically, they are alone and do not want a man in their life...no kids...no long term relationships. The ones who continue to allow it to ruin their relationships only allow someone who was hurtful have power and control over their lives...the ones who overcome that typically have power and control over their lives....seems to me Ms. Nick has that and knows what makes her happy. I think she gave up trying to make Nick happy as he hasn't defined what happy is for himself outside of the bedroom.

 

I agree that there was most likely no sexual abuse. I have explored this with & without her for years, and find no evidence of it. I am fairly positive her issues are emotional & possibly physical, not historical so to speak.

 

What I disagree with is that she has found what makes her happy. She has been a depressive her whole adult life. She has subsumed her own personality in the service of her job & her kids (not me). She has extreme difficulty defining in any concrete way what would make her happy as an adult woman (not a mother or lawyer).

 

What I find really laughable is your last part. I'm actually very happy outside the bedroom. I have extremely clear & precise notions of what would & does make me happy outside the bedroom. I have pursued those. I have achieved a measure of happiness in all regards outside the bedroom - career, monetary, friends, kids to the nth degree, leisure time, etc. I would say the ONLY PLACE I'm extremely unhappy & unfulfilled is in the bedroom. And one fling does not change that.

[trippi1432]

Well Nick....these two posts were definitely better than the previous posts that typically ended with "if she can't give me what I want, I will find it elsewhere or may have to end it.". I know I haven't posted to your thread in a while, but contrary to what you think, I've followed the whole thing and posted many times. When you come here and say those things to us...you leave this forum carrying that mental energy. Even your daughter felt the negative energy between the two of you and knew something was up....kids are very intuitive. Negative energy is just that...it's a look, a sigh, a way of saying "Here we go again" when the discussions happen, in counseling and at home. I'm not saying that's all you, it's both.

 

I'm assuming by your post that the affair is being discussed, but like you said, she won't discuss the sex issue, apparently you have but not in the same session with her? Clarification please.