The dreaded break up talk :-(

[Eternal Sunshine]

Hi D-lish,

 

I am curious about something. Did your ex tell you at the beginning that he wants a relationship but just hasn't met the right person or something along these lines?

 

Did you ask him why he is still single at that age?

[D-Lish]

Ohhhkkay,

 

You haven't played ball with too many boys with attachment disorders have you?

 

D-Lish, you are actually personalizing something here that couldn't be more impersonal.

 

Some men have a busted intimacy template (and your bad kisser-doggy style only guy fits the bill perfectly with his whole conflict-avoidance-can't-end-a-relationship-he-isn't-healthy-in stance). Whew, how's that for a run-on sentence.

 

This means that intimacy and conflict cause them anxiety. Often sexually especially. They have sex to get their rocks off, but the connection parts don't kick in too well because of the anxiety.

 

Anyways, I digress...many men with these issues avoid intimacy altogether because they cannot emotionally process it without the anxiety attached. They crave a relationship and a companion and it looks great and comforting far away, then when they get too close, the fear kicks in. They can't get attached, lest that woman have too much power over him, or sees what they really are (whatever that is they are deeply ashamed of it), or their woman that they grew attached to leaves them. Whatever the underlying intimacy fear/trauma is.

 

If your are really lucky you get a guy that avoids intimacy right in the relationship and, oh, I don't know.....becomes a total porn addict and then you have to ship his ass off to treatment.

 

The whole point here is this:

 

Guy wants companion, guy meets companion, guy gets rush of dopamine/oxytocin/vasopressin, guys limbic system thinks it hit the jackpot, guy opens wide open with huge expectations, guy discovers slightly imperfect human, guy's limbic system goes haywire and creates anxiety and/or intensity, guy emotionally withdraws and avoids, {guy avoids real issues because he doesn't have to capacity to process them much less deal with them, guy becomes ashamed over his own issues, guy becomes more sexually/intimately avoidant, guy feels more shame} the cycle in the squiggly brackets repeats itself until it kills the relationship.

 

Conversely the girl often clings a little harder when the guy pulls back making him go even more haywire.

 

Trust me D-Lish, this guy didn't want you to exit. He's even been in touch since which for these guys is like moving an emotional mountain! He wanted the intimacy to exit because he didn't have the capacity for a normal relationship, much less a pregnancy. With the intimacy gone, the conflict leaves too. Less fear, anxiety, tension and stuff to avoid. Now he doesn't have to look at his internal shame, until next time. Or until he figures it out and decides to deal with it.

 

If you notice the "guy does this, guy does that" timeline, the girl doesn't really seem to matter in it, she could be nice or crazy or whatever. It is the guy's template and the guy's cycle. There are impressively few women that can crack it in any capacity, it can be done, but you practically need a PhD and be able to tolerate all the tests and garbage. If you aren't together very long, it just isn't worth it.

 

He might be a nice guy etc. but relationally he is more of a complex cycle then a person. Hear it, believe it. His behaviour, actions and feelings have less to do with who you are then what his template is set at.

 

I am not going to give you the "he lost a great gal and chin up" speech.

 

Simply: he would lose every girl to avoidance and indifference eventually unless they were severely co-dependent.

 

I think your post was one of the most enlightening things I've read in a long time. It fits with everything I experienced and witnessed.

 

I've been framing the whole situation as if I did something wrong to ruin his love for me. I think back to the first few months where he couldn't wait to see me, how he went out of his way to treat me as if I was the best thing that ever happened to him. But I felt something was off, I felt something was missing, and I reacted to that eventually.

 

I think that the very moment I acted in a manner that didn't jive with how he percieved me, he started looking for a way out. Truly, how can anyone ever live up to an expectation of perfection?

 

I went out of my way to make him feel good about himself because I sensed a strong, underlying insecurity in him. But I don't think anything I could have done would ever have been enough to break through his barriers.

 

He's never broken up with anyone before- he's just withdrawn from them, with-holded affection, avoided, until they got fed up and left him (making him the victim). I forced his hand- and maybe I should be thankful I did. Every single one of his relationships has ended in a passionless, lonley place where he just chose to coast, avoid and withdraw. When he broke up with me I asked him how he could have stayed with a woman (his ex) that used to abuse him, choke him, scream at him in front of her child- but he couldn't get past my hormonal period while I was pregnant, and rejected me when I wasn't even close to being like her. That's where I got some insight. He told me that they moved into together within 3 months (like he wanted to do with me), and then they just existed, not talking, him not coming home at night- and they spent another year together in that manner- seperate bedrooms, no communication- no sex. he said the only thing that kept him there was the fact that she had a daughter and it made it too difficult to leave. So he stayed and interacted with the daughter, but not his gf.

 

I think the red flag I ignored is that all of his relationships have ended up in a state where the sex just stopped, and it stopped early. I don't know what that means- but at the end, we weren't having as much sex either. I don't know what that means, but it should have been a red flag for me.

 

Hi D-lish,

 

I am curious about something. Did your ex tell you at the beginning that he wants a relationship but just hasn't met the right person or something along these lines?

 

Did you ask him why he is still single at that age?

 

My ex told me at the beginning that he'd never met anyone that made him feel the way I did, lol. Apparantly he had- several times.

 

He clouded the facts when it came to the lengths of his relationships. He told me the longest relationship he'd been in was 5 years- but I think it was more like 2 when I got to the bottom of it.

[threebyfate]

Habs fan? HUGE, RED FLAG!

 

Awesome post DoT!

 

D, her post fits to a T, your situation. Co-dependents "take care" of these types of fearful guys, over-compensating for their lack.

[dreamingoftigers]

Habs fan? HUGE, RED FLAG!

 

Awesome post DoT!

 

D, her post fits to a T, your situation. Co-dependents "take care" of these types of fearful guys, over-compensating for their lack.

 

Yep, we are a pretty over-attachey bunch.

 

I think at the bottom of it all is that we believe we are unworthy of love and so we have to reach higher and better places and further to connect with our partner so that we can at least "fake" being worthy of love, then we exhaust ourselves.

 

I think that you are less of those tendencies D-Lish.

 

And of course everything is spectral as well, one co-dependent might take a beating whereas another would only take cheating etc etc.

 

In my case my therapist has said that I am not co-dependent or accepting of the sexual addiction that my H has, that's why it became such an explosive conflict in our relationship.

 

It was the one area of co-dependency that was never role-modeled to me while I was growing up and the one area that I have truly despised being asked to show patience in while my husband develops control over his behavioural compulsion.

 

There are some really interesting dynamics about the push and pull of relationships.

 

A lot of the unbalanced one occur where one partner expresses an overwhelming amount of emotion (i.e. me) and the other one gets kindof stunted in it (i.e. him). Over time it really polarizes if there is a significant enough imbalance to being with.

 

The past week without someone there to express emotionality for my H, he has apparently spent quite a bit of time in treatment sobbing every day.

 

This is a complete polar shift from him at home. I on the other hand have calmed down significantly and I am not anywhere near as triggered emotionally (aside from certain traumatic triggers).

 

So if you got attachey with the old BF there, it could have polarized pretty quickly, especially under stress.

[dreamingoftigers]

You are probably coming pretty close to the end of the data stream from this relationship.

 

By the way TBF TY:)

[Sooner or Later]

 

 

 

Guy wants companion, guy meets companion, guy gets rush of dopamine/oxytocin/vasopressin, guys limbic system thinks it hit the jackpot, guy opens wide open with huge expectations, guy discovers slightly imperfect human, guy's limbic system goes haywire and creates anxiety and/or intensity, guy emotionally withdraws and avoids, {guy avoids real issues because he doesn't have to capacity to process them much less deal with them, guy becomes ashamed over his own issues, guy becomes more sexually/intimately avoidant, guy feels more shame} the cycle in the squiggly brackets repeats itself until it kills the relationship.

 

Conversely the girl often clings a little harder when the guy pulls back making him go even more haywire.

 

[/b]

 

 

Great post, DoT!

 

Just curious--do you think this above cycle gender (male) specific?

 

You said earlier in the post (I didn't include that part), that some men have a "busted intimacy template."

 

 

Just curious if this cycle/theory is, in your opinion, male-centered. Personally, I can see myself in this pattern in earlier relationships.

 

 

--------------

 

D-Lish,

 

I've been reading your posts since I joined. I think you are a remarkably intelligent and self-aware woman who has had some challenges, but I do believe you will overcome these because you are always willing to look inside yourself. I do worry that you internalize and self-blame so much. Keep moving forward and don't let that last one make you spiral downward. Also, I am so sorry for your loss.

 

 

--------

 

To both DoT and D-Lish:

 

Cheers to two smart, articulate and introspective Canadian women!

 

Keep on with your wonderful selves.

 

~Best to you both

 

From another Canadian!

[dreamingoftigers]

Great post, DoT!

 

Just curious--do you think this above cycle gender (male) specific?

 

You said earlier in the post (I didn't include that part), that some men have a "busted intimacy template."

 

 

Just curious if this cycle/theory is, in your opinion, male-centered. Personally, I can see myself in this pattern in earlier relationships.

--------------

D-Lish,

 

I've been reading your posts since I joined. I think you are a remarkably intelligent and self-aware woman who has had some challenges, but I do believe you will overcome these because you are always willing to look inside yourself. I do worry that you internalize and self-blame so much. Keep moving forward and don't let that last one make you spiral downward. Also, I am so sorry for your loss.

 

 

--------

 

To both DoT and D-Lish:

 

Cheers to two smart, articulate and introspective Canadian women!

 

Keep on with your wonderful selves.

 

~Best to you both

 

From another Canadian!

 

Quite frankly I do not believe it to be a 'male-only' problem. There are threads on LS detailing similar behaviours for men and women. As well I have met many male codependents that over-attach but they I believe are rarer and if they are not, then they are less-likely to come forward and work on the issue in quite the same way.

 

they are the "nice guy" that you keep seeing getting burned by women.

 

One of my close friends I believe is an under-attacher. Quite the under-attacher in fact. I know that we won't necessarily be "friends forever" and that I have to keep as strict of boundaries with her as she does with me. I think the one thread that keeps us friends is that despite our issues we are both quite frank of what we think of one another and how we manage our lives. She likes to test me every now and then I have noticed to see what she can get away with. Since I have a pretty sharp awareness of this, I don't let much past my radar. It seems to get her respect.

 

Most people either cave or snap back hard at her.

 

She has recently entered into a relationship where she is expressing some of the opposite traits. I worry about her because the guy is an idiot with no sense of boundaries whatsoever and the relationship is very intense and interlocked. The guy is really an idiot and had the nerve to humiliate me at a dinner last night in front of 10 or so people. It may make it challenging to have a friendship in the future.

 

Back to your query about male-centrism. I do think that men tend to exhibit these issues more blatantly. Women seem able to set up more subtle boundaries that are difficult to call them on, if that helps.

[threebyfate]

Oops, should have clarified that the profile fit is on her ex's side. But since D normally displayed strength, he was drawn to her. When she showed that she needed his support and couldn't always be his strength, it scared the crap out of him and caused him to turtle.

[D-Lish]

Oops, should have clarified that the profile fit is on her ex's side. But since D normally displayed strength, he was drawn to her. When she showed that she needed his support and couldn't always be his strength, it scared the crap out of him and caused him to turtle.

 

Bottom line right? I am pretty strong in many ways- but make me pregnant, and I had difficulties dealing with it, wasn't as strong.

 

I needed him. He wasn't capable of being there for me- I shouldn't beat myeself up over that,

[dreamingoftigers]

Bottom line right? I am pretty strong in many ways- but make me pregnant, and I had difficulties dealing with it, wasn't as strong.

 

I needed him. He wasn't capable of being there for me- I shouldn't beat myeself up over that,

 

I would love to see how most men deal with being pregnant.

[threebyfate]

Bottom line right? I am pretty strong in many ways- but make me pregnant, and I had difficulties dealing with it, wasn't as strong.

 

I needed him. He wasn't capable of being there for me- I shouldn't beat myeself up over that,

Exactly!

[dreamingoftigers]

I would love to see how most men deal with being pregnant.

 

My God I would have had to ask for a maternity test!

 

D-Lish, could you imagine your ex pregnant?

[Kamille]

I'm glad you've reached some clarity D, because it allows me to do this:

 

Go Habs Go!

 

(Grew up a fan and the Leafs never make the play-offs anyway!)

[Sooner or Later]

Quite frankly I do not believe it to be a 'male-only' problem. There are threads on LS detailing similar behaviours for men and women. As well I have met many male codependents that over-attach but they I believe are rarer and if they are not, then they are less-likely to come forward and work on the issue in quite the same way.

 

they are the "nice guy" that you keep seeing getting burned by women.

 

One of my close friends I believe is an under-attacher. Quite the under-attacher in fact. I know that we won't necessarily be "friends forever" and that I have to keep as strict of boundaries with her as she does with me. I think the one thread that keeps us friends is that despite our issues we are both quite frank of what we think of one another and how we manage our lives. She likes to test me every now and then I have noticed to see what she can get away with. Since I have a pretty sharp awareness of this, I don't let much past my radar. It seems to get her respect.

 

Most people either cave or snap back hard at her.

 

She has recently entered into a relationship where she is expressing some of the opposite traits. I worry about her because the guy is an idiot with no sense of boundaries whatsoever and the relationship is very intense and interlocked. The guy is really an idiot and had the nerve to humiliate me at a dinner last night in front of 10 or so people. It may make it challenging to have a friendship in the future.

 

Back to your query about male-centrism. I do think that men tend to exhibit these issues more blatantly. Women seem able to set up more subtle boundaries that are difficult to call them on, if that helps.

 

Thanks for your response--I agree with a lot of it.

[dreamingoftigers]

Thanks for your response--I agree with a lot of it.

 

Kind of funny actually, I had to lay down my personal law with her today. Just let her blow up her fit and then didn't take it from her (I don't crank back full-on for sure). Then she pulled a "well I won't come in to do the work" thing. I said it was fine, that she very well may be right that we would bonk heads if she came in. She made her choice, I held her to it and replaced her for the day. (We split 50-50 on jobs for now because I don't have anything permanent for her).

 

She let me know exactly how it was "all my fault" and I am "very rude" etc. I told her that I disagreed and that everyone is entitled to their opinions and that I hoped that she did have a nice day with her cousin after all.

 

We haven't bonked heads that hard in a long while. She called 10 minutes later to retract, apologize etc. I don't give her an inch because quite frankly I value her as a friend but eventually she would get a mile from me if I gave her even one small inch.

[Els]

 

The whole point here is this:

 

Guy wants companion, guy meets companion, guy gets rush of dopamine/oxytocin/vasopressin, guys limbic system thinks it hit the jackpot, guy opens wide open with huge expectations, guy discovers slightly imperfect human, guy's limbic system goes haywire and creates anxiety and/or intensity, guy emotionally withdraws and avoids, {guy avoids real issues because he doesn't have to capacity to process them much less deal with them, guy becomes ashamed over his own issues, guy becomes more sexually/intimately avoidant, guy feels more shame} the cycle in the squiggly brackets repeats itself until it kills the relationship.

 

Conversely the girl often clings a little harder when the guy pulls back making him go even more haywire.

 

I honestly think that this is a natural, and sad, human tendency. Perhaps more so for men, yes, as men tend to react to problems with emotional withdrawal more so than women - the cave, so to speak. I do not think anyone who feels the tendency to do it, or at least portions of it (getting all crazy with hormones in the beginning, for instance, only to realize with disappointment later that one's partner is less than perfect) has intimacy issues per se - it just makes them human. It is the ability to see this and take proactive measures to curb it that makes one a wise human.

[D-Lish]

I honestly think that this is a natural, and sad, human tendency. Perhaps more so for men, yes, as men tend to react to problems with emotional withdrawal more so than women - the cave, so to speak. I do not think anyone who feels the tendency to do it, or at least portions of it (getting all crazy with hormones in the beginning, for instance, only to realize with disappointment later that one's partner is less than perfect) has intimacy issues per se - it just makes them human. It is the ability to see this and take proactive measures to curb it that makes one a wise human.

 

Well I think next time around I will know to walk away from someone that tells me I am perfect in every way. I think most people put others on a pedestal initially, I know I did with him too. But I think most people accept that being imperfect is part of the human condition. When he started showing cracks in his armour, I actually saw it as a break through and next step to get to know him better (and I saw that as a good thing). I was happy to start to see some of his faults because for me, that's a natural process of getting to know someone and possibly love them deeper.

 

I don't ever see this man capable of loving someone deeply. His past patterns indicate that he goes from infatuation to indifference rather quickly. I think the pregnancy forced him to think in terms of someone much more real than he was capable of handling.

 

I'm just glad I handled the break up graciously- no begging, no pleading, no anger. A little sadness- but no waterworks until I got to the safety of my bathtub at home. I broke NC briefly to send an e-mail about some of the things I didn't get to say because I was in so much shock during the face to face- but I've stuck to NC save for one email saying what I needed to say. I don't regret sending it- I didn't plead for a second chance, and I don't think I betrayed my dignity by saying what I said. I also told him not to write back because it was best for both of us not to have further contact. I really didn't write it hoping to hear anything back- only to get out what I needed him to know. You can never write these kinds of letters if you have any expectations of a response and when I pressed send I had zero need of a response.

 

Thankfully I know the merits of NC from being a long-standing member of LS. Otherwise I might have done the begging and pleading. NC was the first lesson I learned on LS after I got out of my last relationship and had been making every classic mistake indicative of a dumpee that doesn't know any better. I have my dignity now at least. He doesn't need to know my life has been turned upside down since we parted ways.

 

I still think of him 24/7, I still wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep because the anxiety is so intense- but he knows nothing of that, nor will he ever know that he affected me like that.

[dreamingoftigers]

Well I think next time around I will know to walk away from someone that tells me I am perfect in every way. I think most people put others on a pedestal initially, I know I did with him too. But I think most people accept that being imperfect is part of the human condition. When he started showing cracks in his armour, I actually saw it as a break through and next step to get to know him better (and I saw that as a good thing). I was happy to start to see some of his faults because for me, that's a natural process of getting to know someone and possibly love them deeper.

 

I don't ever see this man capable of loving someone deeply. His past patterns indicate that he goes from infatuation to indifference rather quickly. I think the pregnancy forced him to think in terms of someone much more real than he was capable of handling.

 

I'm just glad I handled the break up graciously- no begging, no pleading, no anger. A little sadness- but no waterworks until I got to the safety of my bathtub at home. I broke NC briefly to send an e-mail about some of the things I didn't get to say because I was in so much shock during the face to face- but I've stuck to NC save for one email saying what I needed to say. I don't regret sending it- I didn't plead for a second chance, and I don't think I betrayed my dignity by saying what I said. I also told him not to write back because it was best for both of us not to have further contact. I really didn't write it hoping to hear anything back- only to get out what I needed him to know. You can never write these kinds of letters if you have any expectations of a response and when I pressed send I had zero need of a response.

 

Thankfully I know the merits of NC from being a long-standing member of LS.

Otherwise I might have done the begging and pleading. NC was the first lesson I learned on LS after I got out of my last relationship and had been making every classic mistake indicative of a dumpee that doesn't know any better. I have my dignity now at least. He doesn't need to know my life has been turned upside down since we parted ways.

 

I still think of him 24/7, I still wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep because the anxiety is so intense- but he knows nothing of that, nor will he ever know that he affected me like that.

 

And the moral of the story is don't get involved with a Habs fan (especially one that has intimacy issues, red flags etc. And that you are not a sub-par person/girlfriend and just as valuable to your parents as a natural born child and that NC is the best post break-up policy and that some guys are just screwed in the head and you can't fix them and that some people are really too attached to their dogs).

 

But mostly don't date a Habs fan!

[D-Lish]

And the moral of the story is don't get involved with a Habs fan (especially one that has intimacy issues, red flags etc. And that you are not a sub-par person/girlfriend and just as valuable to your parents as a natural born child and that NC is the best post break-up policy and that some guys are just screwed in the head and you can't fix them and that some people are really too attached to their dogs).

 

But mostly don't date a Habs fan!

 

DOT, you make me laugh. I embraced Habs Nation when I was with him. When we were together I went to get into my car one day I put the key in my lock and there was a Habs keychain on my key ring.

 

My response? I put a Jesus Fish on his car:lmao: (he was an avid Atheist). Took him 3 weeks to see it:lmao:.

[dreamingoftigers]

DOT, you make me laugh. I embraced Habs Nation when I was with him. When we were together I went to get into my car one day I put the key in my lock and there was a Habs keychain on my key ring.

 

My response? I put a Jesus Fish on his car:lmao: (he was an avid Atheist). Took him 3 weeks to see it:lmao:.

 

:lmao:

 

I have to say that I never understood avid athiesm. "We believe in......well.....not HIM."

 

It is kind of like having a parade for not celebrating Christmas.

[D-Lish]

:lmao:

 

I have to say that I never understood avid athiesm. "We believe in......well.....not HIM."

 

It is kind of like having a parade for not celebrating Christmas.

 

I do have a parade for not celebrating Christmas, it's called a stat holiday, and I'll take it! I got one for easter too! Thank you Jesus:lmao:

[dreamingoftigers]

I do have a parade for not celebrating Christmas, it's called a stat holiday, and I'll take it! I got one for easter too! Thank you Jesus:lmao:

 

I was going to add some more 'out there' ideas but decided anything this late at night would border a little too close to offensive to just be witty.

[D-Lish]

I was going to add some more 'out there' ideas but decided anything this late at night would border a little too close to offensive to just be witty.

 

No way, go for it, lol.

 

I do appreciate the insight you've given me though- I revisit your post about the Intimacy challenged man from a few posts back over and over, because it hit home for me and actually helped me release some of my self blame.

 

I'll say it again, you've been really helpful- and I appreciate it a lot.

xo and hugs to you.

[dreamingoftigers]

No way, go for it, lol.

 

I do appreciate the insight you've given me though- I revisit your post about the Intimacy challenged man from a few posts back over and over, because it hit home for me and actually helped me release some of my self blame.

 

I'll say it again, you've been really helpful- and I appreciate it a lot.

xo and hugs to you.

 

Actually, bedtime. They need a tired face on here.

 

It would apply, I mean how many people on here are tired of relationship bull****? Right?

 

Glad the intimately-challened man post helps.

 

Wish that I would have wrote it six years ago, but I digress and whine about my marriage LOL. It is a day that ends in "Y" after all.

[Am4Real]

 

I still think of him 24/7, I still wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep because the anxiety is so intense- but he knows nothing of that, nor will he ever know that he affected me like that.

 

My thoughts are with you "all the time" as I hope for the best for you.

 

P.S. Beware, the Flyers are the arch nemesis of the Lightning!!