I'm attracted to the wrong type of guy :/

[tigressA]

Interesting idea, K. Can you expand on this?

 

Seconded. I never thought of it in that way...what makes one feel secure. I'm interested to read what Panda would have to say about it too, since I can relate to her relationship with her ex.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think the trick is to:

1) Be able to distinguish between what truly is an issue that needs to be addressed as a couple and what might be provoked by one's own inner conflicts. Will solving the issue benefit the relationship or only temporiraly relieve your anxieties? I found, in my own life, that once I could make that distinction and take responsibility for my anxieties, the number of issues in my Rs greatly diminished. Often, I find that in your threads, most of the issues you have are caused by your own anxieties and an interpretation of your dates' actions, not by the actions in and of themselves.

2) Once you've determined that speaking up about an issue has the potential to improve the relationship, then approach the subject in an assertive, confident way. You do have the right to address issues.

3) I also found it best to address issues without having a pre-set intended outcome in mind. But that could be just me: I've heard differing advice. I usually have potential solutions in mind, but really, I think what's important when addressing an issue is to leave room for the other person to come up with a solution, and accept that their solution can be different than mine, and just as effective. Leaving room for a real compromise is key (IME).

4) As TBF pointed out, once you both reach a compromise, then consider the issue solved, until new information arrives.

 

That is really wonderful advice, and so clearly summarized.

 

It took me many years (and probably actually getting pretty old / mature) to internalize these things and be able to function this way myself.

 

It still is not always easy to distinguish between what needs discussion and what is my own issue; I find that if I wait for a day I usually get clarity about this. Also, it helps me not address the situation in a rational, solution-oriented way rather than as an emotional tsunami.

 

We all do need to address issues in our relationships as needed, and we all do NOT need to turn to our partners to fill our "holes" (well, not emotionally, anyway )

[pandagirl]

Kamille really did an excellent job of clarifying the situation!

 

But panda, if his temper got triggered so easily to the degree of yelling match, he has some growing up to do. That's not intensity, that's a serious lack of self-control and could manifest in worse ways.

 

The more I read about him, the more I think you might have dodged a silver bullet.

 

He got really flustered very easily, like he had some sort of ingrained trigger in him, where he's just not equipped to deal with conflict. Could be because of his upbringing (dad was critical, mother not maternal), he just learned to be very self-reliant.

 

He will grow up, I hope. He has a softer side, but I don't know if he'll ever be comfortable with it. I ended up doing that thing where I saw all the potential in him and not what was right in front of me.

 

Seconded. I never thought of it in that way...what makes one feel secure. I'm interested to read what Panda would have to say about it too, since I can relate to her relationship with her ex.

 

What makes me feel secure. I guess it's consistent validation. I don't mean obvious things, like a guy telling me I'm pretty, or that he loves me, or those types of more superficial things, but a consistent and reliable person who does what he says. I know no one is perfect, but once there is a conflict and he doesn't act in the way I expected him to -- a disruption in the pattern -- it can be a slippery slope to me. I become cautious and guarded, more insecure in the relationship.

[pandagirl]

I think the trick is to:

1) Be able to distinguish between what truly is an issue that needs to be addressed as a couple and what might be provoked by one's own inner conflicts. Will solving the issue benefit the relationship or only temporiraly relieve your anxieties? I found, in my own life, that once I could make that distinction and take responsibility for my anxieties, the number of issues in my Rs greatly diminished. Often, I find that in your threads, most of the issues you have are caused by your own anxieties and an interpretation of your dates' actions, not by the actions in and of themselves.

2) Once you've determined that speaking up about an issue has the potential to improve the relationship, then approach the subject in an assertive, confident way. You do have the right to address issues.

3) I also found it best to address issues without having a pre-set intended outcome in mind. But that could be just me: I've heard differing advice. I usually have potential solutions in mind, but really, I think what's important when addressing an issue is to leave room for the other person to come up with a solution, and accept that their solution can be different than mine, and just as effective. Leaving room for a real compromise is key (IME).

4) As TBF pointed out, once you both reach a compromise, then consider the issue solved, until new information arrives.

 

I think I'm actually really good at picking my battles. I *rarely* fight with people, and if I have a problem, I usually don't have an issue bringing it up calmly. Once I feel like my opinion has been heard and understood, and some sort of resolution or compromise has been found, I can drop it.

 

Which is why I felt completely CRAZY with my ex. He made me feel like I was extremely demanding and controlling. Honestly, I still don't know why we broke up. I mean, I know why, but basically it's because we couldn't communicate.

[threebyfate]

He got really flustered very easily, like he had some sort of ingrained trigger in him, where he's just not equipped to deal with conflict. Could be because of his upbringing (dad was critical, mother not maternal), he just learned to be very self-reliant.

 

He will grow up, I hope. He has a softer side, but I don't know if he'll ever be comfortable with it. I ended up doing that thing where I saw all the potential in him and not what was right in front of me.

Straight up. His actions aren't an indication of self-reliance. They're an indication of immaturity, a lack of self-control and very likely, major control issues. If he can't control it, he has to destroy it. If he continues in this vein, he's going to become an abuser.

 

Your ex is badly spoiled.

[Star Gazer]

Panda, so it sounds like validation that the relationship is important and a priority to him? And that once he's unreliable in some way, it makes you feel/worry that the relationship isn't as important to him as you once thought?

[Star Gazer]

Straight up. His actions aren't an indication of self-reliance. They're an indication of immaturity, a lack of self-control and very likely, major control issues. If he can't control it, he has to destroy it. If he continues in this vein, he's going to become an abuser.

 

Your ex is badly spoiled.

 

I've never been one to rush to "abuser" or "potential abuser" characterizations, but I think you're right on the money with this guy.

[Star Gazer]

I think I'm actually really good at picking my battles. I *rarely* fight with people, and if I have a problem, I usually don't have an issue bringing it up calmly. Once I feel like my opinion has been heard and understood, and some sort of resolution or compromise has been found, I can drop it.

 

Which is why I felt completely CRAZY with my ex. He made me feel like I was extremely demanding and controlling. Honestly, I still don't know why we broke up. I mean, I know why, but basically it's because we couldn't communicate.

 

This sounds SO MUCH like what I experienced with the last guy I dealt with!! The reason I kept going back was because he had me convinced I was crazy and that all of our problems were simply the result of a failure to communicate. He was constantly accusing me of being demanding or controlling or impatient, and I was constantly finding myself saying, "I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say..." which would only piss him off more. I always felt like things were "my fault," when in reality, he was just an immature jerk.

 

And we know how that ended. In one big abusive explosion on his part.

[tigressA]

This sounds SO MUCH like what I experienced with the last guy I dealt with!! The reason I kept going back was because he had me convinced I was crazy and that all of our problems were simply the result of a failure to communicate. He was constantly accusing me of being demanding or controlling or impatient, and I was constantly finding myself saying, "I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say..." which would only piss him off more. I always felt like things were "my fault," when in reality, he was just an immature jerk.

 

And we know how that ended. In one big abusive explosion on his part.

 

I also resonate with this as it's how things were with C. Everything was always my fault, I was making too much out of things, asking too much of him. I was always the crazy one, the one making everything complicated.

 

I'm also reluctant to put an abuser tag on someone, but I'm with you in that Panda's ex could eventually be one, and mine could be too. Actually, SG, from what you experienced with that *******, he seems to deserve the tag as well.

[pandagirl]

Straight up. His actions aren't an indication of self-reliance. They're an indication of immaturity, a lack of self-control and very likely, major control issues. If he can't control it, he has to destroy it. If he continues in this vein, he's going to become an abuser.

 

Your ex is badly spoiled.

 

Abuser? I can't really see that.

 

Major control issues? Immature? Yes, yes.

 

Panda, so it sounds like validation that the relationship is important and a priority to him? And that once he's unreliable in some way, it makes you feel/worry that the relationship isn't as important to him as you once thought?

 

Exactly.

[pandagirl]

This sounds SO MUCH like what I experienced with the last guy I dealt with!! The reason I kept going back was because he had me convinced I was crazy and that all of our problems were simply the result of a failure to communicate. He was constantly accusing me of being demanding or controlling or impatient, and I was constantly finding myself saying, "I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say..." which would only piss him off more. I always felt like things were "my fault," when in reality, he was just an immature jerk.

 

And we know how that ended. In one big abusive explosion on his part.

 

 

This sums up my experience, too. My ex wasn't an outright jerk though. He was more avoidant.

[Kamille]

I also resonate with this as it's how things were with C. Everything was always my fault, I was making too much out of things, asking too much of him. I was always the crazy one, the one making everything complicated.

 

 

BTDT. Twice. When it happened once (as is the case with Panda and you), I told myself the guy had issues. When it happened twice, I told myself I was the one who had issues.

 

 

Interesting idea, K. Can you expand on this?

 

Triggering security.

 

I'll try to expand. In my case, Ex and exex offered a lot of emotional security, straight up, within days at the start of the relationship. This feeling never wavered, in either relationship. I came to realize, however, that feeling emotionally secure with a guy (that a guy was really into me), was not a sufficient condition to ensure a healthy long-term relationship together.

 

As I said earlier, I came to realize that I needed that feeling of security in order to be able to open up in a relationship. I also came to make a link between exex and ex's strong confident personalities and their capacity to meet my need for emotional security. The fact they liked to be in charged, driven and had a "my way or the highway" attitude provided a feeling of security on the one hand, but meant that there was little room for me to participate in the decisions about the relationship (input on this front would always be problematic, lead to fights, lead to me being told I was at fault, that I misunderstood, etc).

 

So I started wondering why I needed so much emotional security that early on, and what my exes did that made me feel so secure. In my view, when it comes to feeling emotional security, there's two things:

1) Actual needs

2) Needs that stem from cognitive distortions.

 

I had to check myself when I started dating bf, and to make sure that I wasn't asking for too much emotional security (validation) too soon, upfront. I made sure that I felt emotionally secure and stable, independently from his actions. I reminded myself that I didn't have to fret about whether or not bf was into me. That I should rather focus on ejoying getting to know him, and that if I stopped enjoying getting to know him, than I could wonder what the problem was and take actions at that moment. I kept busy. I went to yoga, booked myself lots of me time (which as an INFJ I need anyways ), made time for friends. I stayed centered on me. All those thoughts and actions made me feel secure and like I could continue to open up to him, without anxiety or fear. In other words, the security came from me and my assessment of our evolving relationship, not from him having to convince me I could open up.

 

 

It still is not always easy to distinguish between what needs discussion and what is my own issue; I find that if I wait for a day I usually get clarity about this. Also, it helps me address the situation in a rational, solution-oriented way rather than as an emotional tsunami.

 

 

So true! I still struggle to distinguish between relationship needs and my own issues. But the very fact that I give myself to get clarity on what a particular emotion migh be helps me approach situations in a way more constructive way.

 

Also, what I find fascinating is one of the biggest difference between bf and the Exes. With the exes, it felt like I always had to be perfect in how I communicated issues, or else they would hold unclear communication against me (when it came to dealing with issues, I feel like they used whatever tool at their disposal against me). With bf, he accepts that I may not always be able to communicate productively and clearly.

 

And you know what? Who in the world always communicates perfectly? It was a ridiculous expectation on the Exes' part and I can't believe I bought into it. If ever things don't work out with bf (heaven forbid!), I know I will laugh in the face of the next guy who expects me to consistently communicate perfectly. I say this, because while this might be obvious to other, I think that the INFJs easily fall prey to perfectionnism (and tend to see other's point views) so that we might therefore agree with our partner's assessment of our flaws, even when those assessments are unfair.

[pandagirl]

This sounds SO MUCH like what I experienced with the last guy I dealt with!! The reason I kept going back was because he had me convinced I was crazy and that all of our problems were simply the result of a failure to communicate. He was constantly accusing me of being demanding or controlling or impatient, and I was constantly finding myself saying, "I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say..." which would only piss him off more. I always felt like things were "my fault," when in reality, he was just an immature jerk.

 

And we know how that ended. In one big abusive explosion on his part.

 

 

This sums up my experience, too. My ex wasn't an outright jerk though. He was more avoidant.

 

EDIT: Don't know why this double posted!

Edited March 30, 2011 by pandagirl

[threebyfate]

Abuser? I can't really see that.

 

Major control issues? Immature? Yes, yes.

You realize there are individuals who are emotionally abusive, yelling and screaming at their partners or nitpicking them to death, in order to maintain control. These are abusive behaviours, hence abuser.

 

There's also a cycle to abusers. Yell/nitpick, sweet, harsh, sweet and on and on. This way, after extended exposure to them, you'll start to walk on eggshells, worried when the next outburst will happen.

 

Watch out for this type of person.

[Star Gazer]

This sums up my experience, too. My ex wasn't an outright jerk though. He was more avoidant.

 

Mine wasn't really either. He (as TBF would say) turtled instead. He didn't become a jerk until that final night.

[pandagirl]

You realize there are individuals who are emotionally abusive, yelling and screaming at their partners or nitpicking them to death, in order to maintain control. These are abusive behaviours, hence abuser.

 

There's also a cycle to abusers. Yell/nitpick, sweet, harsh, sweet and on and on. This way, after extended exposure to them, you'll start to walk on eggshells, worried when the next outburst will happen.

 

Watch out for this type of person.

 

I see what you mean.

 

I can relate to how maybe you'd just rather keep your mouth shut than cause a disturbance after awhile.

 

Interestingly, I remember him saying that one of his relationships didn't work out because she was too "anal," and brought up an example of how she would "nag" him to make dinner reservations all the time. In retrospect, she was probably just trying to make him contribute to the relationship.

[Star Gazer]

I see what you mean.

 

I can relate to how maybe you'd just rather keep your mouth shut than cause a disturbance after awhile.

 

Interestingly, I remember him saying that one of his relationships didn't work out because she was too "anal," and brought up an example of how she would "nag" him to make dinner reservations all the time. In retrospect, she was probably just trying to make him contribute to the relationship.

 

Jerkface called me anal and a nagger too! Haha! And he explained that his ex did the same thing...

 

But really, you've seen the stories. Abused women walk on eggshells, arranging the hand towels and soup cans just perfectly for fear of angering their SO and "causing" him to fly into a rage. I really do think it starts with the "my way or the highway" righteous attitude. "Don't make me get mad at you, Star/Kamille/TigressA/panda... You know what happens if you do X..."

[welikeincrowds]

Jerkface called me anal and a nagger too! Haha! And he explained that his ex did the same thing...

 

But really, you've seen the stories. Abused women walk on eggshells, arranging the hand towels and soup cans just perfectly for fear of angering their SO and "causing" him to fly into a rage. I really do think it starts with the "my way or the highway" righteous attitude. "Don't make me get mad at you, Star/Kamille/TigressA/panda... You know what happens if you do X..."

 

And yet, this is a posture that is routinely advised that men (and maybe women too?) should take on LS.

 

I guess the distinction between healthy and controlling is subtle?

[Star Gazer]

And yet, this is a posture that is routinely advised that men (and maybe women too?) should take on LS.

 

I guess the distinction between healthy and controlling is subtle?

 

I'm not following you. I don't think I've ever seen that behavior advocated?

[pandagirl]

Jerkface called me anal and a nagger too! Haha! And he explained that his ex did the same thing...

 

But really, you've seen the stories. Abused women walk on eggshells, arranging the hand towels and soup cans just perfectly for fear of angering their SO and "causing" him to fly into a rage. I really do think it starts with the "my way or the highway" righteous attitude. "Don't make me get mad at you, Star/Kamille/TigressA/panda... You know what happens if you do X..."

 

 

I really don't think my ex is abusive. It's more I think he's very immature and emotionally stunted.

 

God, am I talking like a battered wife??

[Star Gazer]

I really don't think my ex is abusive. It's more I think he's very immature and emotionally stunted.

 

God, am I talking like a battered wife??

 

Who knows, really. I would have said the same thing about Jerkface if he hadn't exploded in the end. Before that, I wouldn't have dubbed him abusive either, because up until that moment, he hadn't really abused me. But I was walking on eggshells, I did feel crazy, it was his way or the highway, he was emotionally stunted, and had a desire to dominate... Was he abusive in the end? Absolutely. Was he before that? I really don't think so.

 

But no, if you had in fact been abused, I think you'd be able to acknowledge it. But just because you weren't abused doesn't mean he's not an abuser or not capable of being one.

[SteveC80]

Women and Men need to realize were different in how we act and are attracted to different things as genders

 

Women are attracted to MEN not Men who act like women showing allot of emotion being nurturign and sweet

 

Were attracted to women becasue their different then us and women are attracted to Men becaue of our different characteristics:

 

Stoic non emotional in control, leadership, powerful[physically and status wise], dominating etc

 

We both admire those qualities becasue sexually thats what we want out of the other gender in the bedroom and are animalistically attracted to

 

Its why a lot of Men complain women are attracted to jerks,women are just attracted to raw animalistic stoic powerful Men that will ravage them in the bedroom not sweet quiet meek Men

 

What were animalistically programmed to be attracted to may not be good for us in the long run but its what makes our body parts tingle towards the opposite sex and out of Men and womens control

Edited March 31, 2011 by SteveC80

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

I completely agree. Women say they want a nice guy, but they always pick the jerk in the end.

[Isolde]

I completely agree. Women say they want a nice guy, but they always pick the jerk in the end.

 

Please, leave Panda's thread alone.

[johan]

I completely agree. Women say they want a nice guy, but they always pick the jerk in the end.

 

So be a jerk.