Trojan John Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 In Christian religions, God did not "create" His Son. You are right, God is "simultaneously" Father, Son and Holy spirit, which existed from the beginning of time. But God chose to become man (and at the same time still sinless and Devine). He sent the Son to redeem us from sin by the ultimate sacrifice, becoming human and enduring His own suffering and death on our behalf for the forgiveness on sins. Not to pick nits, skydiveaddict, but how do you come to the conclusion that they have existed since the beginning of time when Jesus isn't mentioned until the New Testament, and the Trinity is an extra-biblical concept enforced by the Council of Nicea in the 4th century? And again, with all that you and I have stated (still god, divine, etc.) how is it a sacrifice, let alone an ultimate sacrifice? If I push my wife out of the path of a bus, only to be struck and killed -- that is the ultimate sacrifice. I will not be resurrected, I will not gain godly powers. If, however, I know for fact that I will gain godly powers, then that's pure callous opportunism on my part, despite me saving her life. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) The other thing that got to me was that Jesus said: I am the way, the Truth and The Life. Nobody comes to the father except through me." Er...ok. What about all the people devoted to god, preceding Jesus, who never found out about him? Does this make their faith in God invalid? And if "Time" has a beginning - then God must have a beginning. And if he has existed since the beginning of time - that means he will come to an end, also. he can't have a beginning - but no end. That's not possible. Edited May 12, 2011 by TaraMaiden Link to post Share on other sites
slothslap Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I thought we were all Gods children, so how was Jesus his only son? Link to post Share on other sites
Trojan John Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 If somebody has a faith that gives them internal strength and a sense of peace, and doesn't manifest itself in harmful/oppressive actions against other people, then having that faith seems a good and rational decision for them to make - even if the faith isn't rooted in anything that has been scientifically proven. Perhaps it helps them towards some meditative state where they're not reliant on other human beings to give them reassurance that they're okay....but where they have a commitment (required by their faith) to strive towards upholding certain values. I think the values such as peacefulness, freeing oneself from hatred or envy etc are promoted in the main religious faiths would generally be considered as positive values in secular societies as well as religious ones. The problems set in when people who have malignant agendas start to use religion as a tool to promote those agendas. The same thing happens with psychology. Somebody with a good understanding of psychology can use their knowledge to help others in a positive way, or they can use it to control and influence others in a harmful manner. As to why people must believe in the notion of an all powerful, perfect being in order for the faith to work positively for them....well, few things relating to promoting inner peace work unless you believe in them. A lot of people think things like hypnotherapy and CBT counselling are crap. Others swear by them. These methods of trying to help people towards a healthier psychological state won't work on those who don't believe in their effectiveness. Sometimes for people to get beyond psychological factors that are holding them back or keeping them in an unhappy state, they have to start developing a belief that won't be universally regarded as a rational one. I understand exactly what you mean, and agree with you for the most part. I completely see the value of prayer as meditation with its repetitive, mantra-form (however I value meditation more because it does not intrinsically reinforce unfounded beliefs). I see the value of positive beliefs to make positive people. I am just of the opinion that any crutch -- be it psychological, spiritual, pseudoscientific or chemical -- is ultimately detrimental. Granted, many people do many good things because of their belief in a higher power, and as long as they are not hurting anyone then their beliefs are none of my concern. What I take issue with, like in the previous reply, is this idea that one cannot be or do good without a supernatural belief; that life is not worth living or impossible to continue living without aspirations to be with one's god(s) of choice. Ignoring the people who use beliefs or religious texts to do wrong, you still have fundamentally good people with their unfounded beliefs -- and even in an attempt to do what they think is right -- who commit minor atrocities. You still have very good people who, instead of moving toward a healthy psychological state, are physically and mentally shackled specifically because of their religious beliefs. But that's an entirely different thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Fugu Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Jesus and God are two different entities. Jesus is our God but he is not the God, he is the son of God. When we worship, we worship the trinity. At the time when Jesus sacrificed himself, he did not know everything about what God (his father) had planned for him. He was sent here to be tested throughout the course of his life and to, in the end, die for us and our sins. God knows that in order to rule, you must first learn to serve - so that was Jesus' mission. Like I said, you don't have to understand it - and it's no one's job to try and force you, especially when you are not even willing to in the first place. This story just strikes me as just pure, unmitigated anthropocentric bullsh*t. I think that we humans like to believe that the Universe is centered upon us and our evolution, in spite of the steady stream of scientific evidence that increasingly sheds light on our significance (or lack of it) relative to everything else that exists. Why would God need to serve -- to learn how to rule? That makes no sense. God *is* the Creater and Lord of the Universe, supposedly, so why would a rational, human-like God care? Would God need to establish legitimacy? Mmmm, okay, maybe I could go along with that, but it seems that if that were the case, there would be easier ways of going about this task, eh? "You don't have to understand it". Well, gee, thanks. I don't, and I never will -- probably because it makes absolutely no sense. It makes sense only when you believe and have faith, but when one starts asking serious questions, the best one can respond with is, "You don't have to believe it, but you'll be judged and condemned if you don't." That just doesn't pass the bullsh*t test. Link to post Share on other sites
Fugu Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 In Christian religions, God did not "create" His Son. You are right, God is "simultaneously" Father, Son and Holy spirit, which existed from the beginning of time. But God chose to become man (and at the same time still sinless and Devine). He sent the Son to redeem us from sin by the ultimate sacrifice, becoming human and enduring His own suffering and death on our behalf for the forgiveness on sins. How does creating himself in the flesh so he could suffer "redeem" humanity? Why is that necessary to "redeem" us? Doesn't this strike you as something that seems to be the work of a good fiction writer? An early version of Shakespeare? Look, I'm not mocking someone's belief in Jesus or Christ per se. I have my doubts, but people can believe whatever they want. However, if it doesn't make sense, then I'm going to point it out or at least ask questions. FWIW, I do believe in a God. I just don't believe it's the human-centered God that we wish it to be. I think it's probably a mysterious force that is beyond our ability to comprehend. Naturally, that would ensnare me in one of the prime defenses of Christianity and other forms of monotheism: that Christianity is something that I cannot understand, which doesn't mean that it isn't a valid theological model. To that, I would respond by saying that, whereas some 'get it' and others don't with regard to Christianity, in my model of God, I think the Creator is probably beyond the comprehension of nearly everyone. I think we can all relate to God on some level, but we will never truly understand it. We don't have the intelligence to do so. Link to post Share on other sites
Fugu Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Some people will either simply never believe, or they used to believe and no longer do. You can't teach them anything, and their only goal is to undermine your faith, so there's no point in discussing anything with them past the extent of expressing your own opinion and leaving it at that. If there were legitimate defenses of the Christian model of God, I would be inclined to 'learn'. However, as I said before, it is a model that, for many devout followers (though not all), hinges upon faith and it seems hostile to those who ask legitimate questions. Christianity's biggest flaw, in my view, is that it is a 2000 year old religion, which itself is heavily influenced by ideas that were thousands of years old at the time of its development. Christianity is an anthropocentric philosophy which exaggerates the significance of our existence. These types of people revel in the chance to show their disdain for people they view as ignorant for believing in a 2000 year old book written by followers of an invisible entity, something that they simply don't understand. They may think they understand the bible in a purely logical sense, but since they are not genuine believers they will never grasp the full meaning or feeling. A pity for them. Christians have always been spurned and persecuted, today's persecutors are simply of a different brand because they don't have the power to crucify us or feed us to lions. Actually, I would quite agree with you that Atheism itself seems to have taken on an almost religious-like character. I find myself opposed to the sarcastic and hostile attitudes of many self-proclaimed Atheists. But having said that, the reason people are so visceral in their reaction to religion is because those who embrace religion often try to influence our thoughts and behaviors based on a set of their beliefs. As I've pointed out, these are beliefs that are based on little more than faith. When people try to regulate others based on philosophy that relies more on faith than what we know to be true and fair based on our own personal observations and experience, then I think people will -- and should -- be hostile. Link to post Share on other sites
xisnotx Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 When people try to regulate others based on philosophy that relies more on faith than what we know to be true and fair What do you know to be true and fair? Link to post Share on other sites
SushiX Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Don't be silly. God is Santa for grown ups! Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 What do you know to be true and fair? When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them." This resonates with me. Link to post Share on other sites
xisnotx Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Such a state can be achieved without a belief in god. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Being Buddhist, that was my point..... Link to post Share on other sites
xisnotx Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 If that's what you want to call it. I prefer to think of it as common sense. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 It's a direct Buddha's teaching from the Suttas. But I'm not surprised you see it as common sense. Given that Buddhism precedes Christianity by 600 years or so, it spoke common sense a lot longer before God did. Link to post Share on other sites
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xisnotx Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Buddhism was hardly the first. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Buddhism was hardly the first. I'm not saying it was, but it preceded Christianity by over 500 years, so it was first - before Christianity. Much of what is taught in the new testament by JC appears in similar format, in the Pali Suttas written a few hundred years before any biblical scriptures existed. Link to post Share on other sites
xisnotx Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 And those teachings came from other teachings...which came from other teachings...which came from other teachings... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Right.... Name one. Link to post Share on other sites
xisnotx Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 why bother? your mind is made up. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 So's yours. Link to post Share on other sites
Envekeerm Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 CCleaner 3.06 adds HTML5 cleaning, support for first time apps piriform ccleaner free download has long been a favorite utility of geeks and non-geeks alike, as a result of its no-hassle system maintenance abilities. Piriform, the business behind Ccleaner, does a great job of keeping pace with the Web browsers the app is designed to clean up after. In the current Ccleaner 3.06 update support for everyone's non-finalized standard, HTML5, has been bolted on. Both the installer and portable version of Ccleaner are already updated to 3.06. Existing users should receive an update notification when launching this program, while new users can download it straight from Piriform. Like the other temp files it handles, ccleaner.com review can now clean up HTML5 IndexedDB files for both Google Chrome and Firefox plus the HTML5 offline cache files employed by Opera and Safari. Internet Explorer support has been enhanced at the same time, with better removing temporary Internet files and history items. Ccleaner? it's recently-introduced intelligent cookie scanner has got a bit brainier, and those using a keen eye for detail will also notice the introduction of the new Google Chrome icon. Both installer and portable version of Ccleaner have been updated to 3.06. Existing users should receive an update notification when launching this system, while new users can download it from Piriform. free registry cleaner ccleaner doesn' it is stop with Internet browsers, of course it is also good at removing the cruft out of your Windows registry, and its skills on that front happen to be refined. Support to get a handful of other applications may be added, too, including CoreFTP, FileZilla, and MusicMatch Jukebox. Have more at Ccleanercom Link to post Share on other sites
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DreamerGirl27 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Well, the way I look at is this. When a murderer murders, he gets sent to prison and most likely gets the death penalty, and that's just for one or more murders. Osama Bin Laden...the dude killed 3,000 people. Plus hijacked how many planes and tried to fly them into other buildings. You don't politely and kindly sit by while that happens. When somebody smacks your mama, you don't sit there and do nothing, you smack the mother effer back and tell him if he ever does it again there will be heck to pay. It's this sort of passive aggressive behavior about liberals and people who are anti war that I don't quite get. And I'm very liberal in a lot of ways. Nobody likes war. Nobody likes death. But we are human and the only way outta this world and into the next, is through death. And when someone is so mentally challenged that they feel the need to mass murder (terrorize) thousands of people for their religion...there's something wrong and they are probably better off dead. Put out of their misery. It's like a wounded horse that's suffering that you put a bullet through to end it's pain. Same scenario. Because nobodies anywhere near happy if he thinks he has to kill that many people. Link to post Share on other sites
xisnotx Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 ^lol 1) Whose "momma" was hit first? Yours? His? At this point does it even matter? He did what he had to do. 2) What is religion? Nobody likes war. Nobody likes death. But we are human and the only way outta this world and into the next, is through death. And when someone is so mentally challenged that they feel the need to mass murder (terrorize) thousands of people for their religion...there's something wrong and they are probably better off dead. Put out of their misery. I'm sure if Osama was alive he would agree. The real question is "Why?". I don't know if it's just me, but I can't wait to see who wins in the end. Link to post Share on other sites
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