If you believe in God...

[quankanne]

Why was it necessary … It wasn't a choice on Jesus' (God's) part. It was his mandate, and an odd one at that. it's wasn't necessary at all. However, Jesus' acted on free will (courtesy of the human nature in him) to step up and do this on our behalf simply because he loves us. When you think about it, none of the decisions we make are particularly sacrificial because we do them yet when you factor in the whole "taking it out of my comfort zone" and doing that thing because you have nothing to gain or that it doesn't change anything for you, it's a sacrifice. Because you choose to make it about other, and not self. And really, we humans are horribly selfish because we don't want to break out of our comfort zones. Jesus didn't have to do this, especially because he knew what the turnout would be, yet he still did. And therein lies the sacrifice. ¿Entiendes?

 

if I were a god I think that I could come up with a myriad of ways other than a blood sacrifice in order make things right with the world. I'm sure you could, too. two thoughts on this: One, read the Old Testament, where bloody animal sacrifices were the norm – in our history books (real-life shxt), we see human sacrifice among the Mayans to appease their deities blood-lust. If we follow that reasoning, and take general animal and human sacrifice constantly being offered on behalf a certain group of peoples for a limited amount of time, wouldn't it therefore be a greater act of love (and sacrifice) for one dude who knew he had an out to say, "I'll do it because it ensures you a seat at my heavenly Father's table. You don't have to do a thing, just embrace the fact that I love you with all my heart, as my Dad loves you with all my heart. You don't have to throw yourself in front of a runaway train or slit your wrists or take a bullet, just surrender yourself to His love and then share that love with others." And then for him to make it an open offer for souls throughout time? That's a big thing, when you think of how narrow-minded and self-centered we humans are

 

other thought is that yeah, Jesus could have waved his hands and made things all right spiritually, but what kind of impact would that have? It's something in our selfish way of thinking that we'd expect. The simplicity of his act makes a greater impact because it's a ginormous thing, and it cuts down to the heart of the matter: Choosing other over self. If you've got kids, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I see parents – in particular, mothers – sacrifice so that their children can have. They give up the visits to the salons, they don't stay on top of buying trends, they learn to live with what they have just so their babies get what they need ... I think of a particular niece by marriage, who spent the total of a whole pregnancy (two kids) on bedrest just so she could carry her babies full-term. Didn't squawk once about it because it was about them, not about herself. And now asks that she and my nephew don't get things, but that we can help by giving to their children. And she's no dummy, either – she and the boy realize that their kids are more important.

 

and I think that's how God sees it: He stepped down from his place of authority and became human because it meant that he could be even closer to us. Then he offered himself up on our behalf so that we could be ensured a shot at eternal life. If that's not love – much like what the kids are doing for their babies – I don't know what is ...

[OpenBook]

Why was it necessary for god to splinter itself, then offer itself up as a bloody and brutal human sacrifice in order to 1) forgive humans of their ancestral sin, 2) grant people everlasting life, and 3) how can you possibly relate a brutal act of crucifixion with an act of love? It wasn't a choice on Jesus' (God's) part. It was his mandate, and an odd one at that.

 

Again, we all seem to have different working definitions of the word "sacrifice", and in this particular example we differ on what is and what is not an act of love.

 

I'm only human, but if I were a god I think that I could come up with a myriad of ways other than a blood sacrifice in order make things right with the world. I'm sure you could, too.

 

I struggle with this myself. The shedding of innocent blood to save others is an ancient law, and not exclusive to Christianity (for example, the American Indians - this law is also embedded in their belief system). For the life of me I do not understand why it is necessary. But I do believe it WAS a choice for Jesus, and He willingly stepped up to the plate for us.

[Taramere]

If God really didn't want anyone to suffer He would simply make the suffering stop. If He really wanted everyone to be "saved" He would simply save them. All that crap about free will and choice is a load of bull!!! If God is really at odds with Satan, and if there is really going to be a war between the two and God is really more powerful and will win, then why is God wasting time with all the sh*t.

 

God revels in a bit of drama, the same as everybody else does. Probably a great deal more so, in fact. There's no other explanation. Well, other than the obvious one that what society generally terms God is nothing more than a projection of our human drives, instincts, creativity and emotions onto the forces of nature.

 

My theory regarding humans sacrificing themselves in days of old is that because of the dominance of religion back then there was absolutely no other way they could effect changes in society.

[Trojan John]

it's wasn't necessary at all.

Right. Wasn't necessary at all. You could have stopped right there. I hate to sound like a broken record, but a god with powers over life and death makes no sacrifice by knowingly being killed and resurrecting itself. Any zone is a god's comfort zone with powers like that.

 

two thoughts on this: One, read the Old Testament, where bloody animal sacrifices were the norm – in our history books (real-life shxt), we see human sacrifice among the Mayans to appease their deities blood-lust. If we follow that reasoning...

...then the bible was written in barbaric times for a people with principles and values that have next to ZERO to do with those we hold today. The simple fact that the god of the bible endorses MANY acts of horrific violence should be enough to make one question the value and validity of the teachings in the bible. Violence begets more violence. What is chopping off my arm, or killing my brother going to teach my naughty children -- love? kindness?

 

Choosing other over self. If you've got kids, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I see parents – in particular, mothers – sacrifice so that their children can have. They give up the visits to the salons, they don't stay on top of buying trends, they learn to live with what they have just so their babies get what they need ... I think of a particular niece by marriage, who spent the total of a whole pregnancy (two kids) on bedrest just so she could carry her babies full-term. Didn't squawk once about it because it was about them, not about herself. and I think that's how God sees it: He stepped down from his place of authority and became human because it meant that he could be even closer to us. Then he offered himself up on our behalf so that we could be ensured a shot at eternal life. If that's not love – much like what the kids are doing for their babies – I don't know what is ...

Yes, your niece made a huge sacrifice. Great, actual example of an actual sacrifice. However, your analogy doesn't work. She is human, capable of dying a real death in childbirth. She has to deal with the many years and many hardships that follow raising children. A god, on the other hand, does not have this issue. I can't call the act of a god sacrificing itself unto itself -- for the sake of creatures it created imperfect and subsequently damned -- an act of love. I don't even know what I'd call it.

 

For my next pointless endeavour, I'll discuss how this all conflicts with the numerous messianic and creation myths of the 4000 other world religions...

[Trojan John]

I struggle with this myself. The shedding of innocent blood to save others is an ancient law, and not exclusive to Christianity (for example, the American Indians - this law is also embedded in their belief system). For the life of me I do not understand why it is necessary. But I do believe it WAS a choice for Jesus, and He willingly stepped up to the plate for us.

 

Not trying to be mean, but what was the alternative -- to live to be an old fisherman in northern Israel and have six children by two different wives? Or maybe he could have pushed the guy next to him forward and said, "no, he said that HE'S the king of the Jews. I was just hanging out with him."

 

The entire biblical existence of Jesus preordained by the biblical god. There can be no choice.

[dreamingoftigers]

As a Mormon we believe that Jesus and God are somewhat separate entities. Jesus is the son of God, not God throwing himself up on the cross. He really did allow his son to go through the suffering.

[quankanne]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but a god with powers over life and death makes no sacrifice by knowingly being killed and resurrecting itself. I get what you're saying now. Yet it's the human part of me that identifies with what Christ chose to do, not the spark of the divine that lives in me ...

 

The simple fact that the god of the bible endorses MANY acts of horrific violence should be enough to make one question the value and validity of the teachings in the bible. Violence begets more violence. yet if you remember your catechism, Jesus' act fulfilled all those blood-lusty sacrifices because it was the ultimate act ... and violence was met with love because that was what he preached. Even his death was an act of love in the end.

 

I can't call the act of a god sacrificing itself unto itself -- for the sake of creatures it created imperfect and subsequently damned -- an act of love. again, for me, it goes back to the whole selflessness factor of it all. We hear about the gods and goddesses of Greek mythology who were quirky about their treatment of humans, and acted with great arrogance and pride toward them, much like the little shxthead who pulls off insects wings and uses a magnifying glass to torch anthills ... What the Gospels share about God shows us that there's no room for that baloney ... it's all a love-based revolution.

 

600 posts is the secks! :laugh: reminds me of a line from "House Bunny," where Collin Hanks steps on Anna Ferris' foot and she yells out "BIG SUCK!"

[alwaysagoodgirl]

honest question: ...... If the theory of "A Trinity" exist, then God must be schizophrenic.

 

I have experience in the mental health field and this sounds like mental illness to me. Not that that's bad. I've known many mentally ill people that are wonderful intelligent productive people. Mentally ill just the same.

[TheLoneSock]

Some people will either simply never believe, or they used to believe and no longer do. You can't teach them anything, and their only goal is to undermine your faith, so there's no point in discussing anything with them past the extent of expressing your own opinion and leaving it at that.

 

These types of people revel in the chance to show their disdain for people they view as ignorant for believing in a 2000 year old book written by followers of an invisible entity, something that they simply don't understand. They may think they understand the bible in a purely logical sense, but since they are not genuine believers they will never grasp the full meaning or feeling. A pity for them. Christians have always been spurned and persecuted, today's persecutors are simply of a different brand because they don't have the power to crucify us or feed us to lions.

 

Most of these people will claim they are indifferent towards the religious, but we know that's not the case, don't we? The venom in their words seeps through anyway and shows their true attitudes.

[quankanne]

honest question: ...... If the theory of "A Trinity" exist, then God must be schizophrenic.

 

I have experience in the mental health field and this sounds like mental illness to me. Not that that's bad. I've known many mentally ill people that are wonderful intelligent productive people. Mentally ill just the same.

 

very interesting thought you've put out there, kiddo. But by that posit, you'd have to say that every person on the planet is schizo because of the different facets others identify us by. For example, my husband sees one version of quank, while my friends see another, and my sibs/family and colleagues yet another. Yet I'm just me, and I don't really think I'm different around any of those groups.

 

maybe the whole Trinity thing is to allow people a better grasp of God's nature? One of the sisters explained it like this: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are really just different facets of Love. God = Love; Jesus = Beloved, the Spirit = Lover. All the same (love) just different aspects to better illustrate the God as a whole.

[Taramere]

Some people will either simply never believe, or they used to believe and no longer do. You can't teach them anything, and their only goal is to undermine your faith, so there's no point in discussing anything with them past the extent of expressing your own opinion and leaving it at that.

 

These types of people revel in the chance to show their disdain for people they view as ignorant for believing in a 2000 year old book written by followers of an invisible entity, something that they simply don't understand. They may think they understand the bible in a purely logical sense, but since they are not genuine believers they will never grasp the full meaning or feeling. A pity for them. Christians have always been spurned and persecuted, today's persecutors are simply of a different brand because they don't have the power to crucify us or feed us to lions.

 

Most of these people will claim they are indifferent towards the religious, but we know that's not the case, don't we? The venom in their words seeps through anyway and shows their true attitudes.

 

I like Quankanne's approach on this board...probably because her temperament and her faith seem to be very much in harmony. She's a very good advertisement for her faith. Unfortunately there are a lot of religious individuals out there whose faith and temperament just don't seem to fit together....and they don't do much to convince skeptics that religion is very effective in promoting inner peace,harmony and wellbeing.

 

People who don't share your faith may well find it funny and express their amusement. If you find that annoying and condescending, you're free to respond as you have (ie by adopting a condescending tone in retaliation). To believe, however, that anybody who doesn't take your faith as seriously as you would like them to is filled with venom and would want to persecute you or punish you for having that faith suggests you have a pretty bleak view of your fellow man.

[TheLoneSock]

People who don't share your faith may well find it funny and express their amusement. If you find that annoying and condescending, you're free to respond as you have (ie by adopting a condescending tone in retaliation). To believe, however, that anybody who doesn't take your faith as seriously as you would like them to is filled with venom and would want to persecute you or punish you for having that faith suggests you have a pretty bleak view of your fellow man.

 

Not at all, that's why I said some individuals and not all in general.

 

And to pretend that you are oblivious to what I mean when I talk about venom spewers in comparison to other honest, genuine Atheists is not becoming of you. Just like for me to pretend that die hard believers who shove their religion down other people's throats don't exist would not be becoming of me.

 

There are two sides to each coin, recognizing that fact doesn't mean my views are bleak.

[Taramere]

Not at all, that's why I said some individuals and not all in general.

 

And to pretend that you are oblivious to what I mean when I talk about venom spewers in comparison to other honest, genuine Atheists is not becoming of you. Just like for me to pretend that die hard believers who shove their religion down other people's throats don't exist would not be becoming of me.

 

There are two sides to each coin, recognizing that fact doesn't mean my views are bleak.

 

I don't see them being venomous. I'd describe it more as zealous about trying to win an unwinnable argument (by which I mean these arguments always just end up in a stalemate with no change in the participants' stances).

 

Even that well known atheist Richard Dawkins has described himself as a cultural Christian who doesn't want to interfere with traditional religious ceremonies that bring a lot of enjoyment into people's lives. The only time I recall somebody here really spewing venom was some guy who used to write lengthy diatribes against God and what he'd say to him in the afterlife. I wouldn't see somebody like that as an atheist so much as somebody who was caught in a conflict between belief and disbelief (assuming he wasn't just trolling for fun).

[Lovelybird]

honest question: ...... If the theory of "A Trinity" exist, then God must be schizophrenic.

 

I have experience in the mental health field and this sounds like mental illness to me. Not that that's bad. I've known many mentally ill people that are wonderful intelligent productive people. Mentally ill just the same.

Actually if you read some researches about religious belief's influence on mental health, they talk about religious belief has very positive influence on people. In mental health field, it is a new trend that psychologists begin to take religion and culture diversity more seriously.

 

 

One can judge a person with faith as Schizophrenia just by the surface, but they are totally different: schizphrenia and people with faith have totally different symptoms. One has peace, joy, endurance, positive outlook, and so on; another has opposite

[Disillusioned]

Ever read Marvin Harris' theory about why missionaries succeed or fail? He says if the missionaries' target audiences don't really think a new religion is going to improve their quality of life, they won't be interested in converting.

 

In the decades leading up to WW2, the Cargo Cults of the south Pacific (the most famous being the Jon Frum cult on the island of Tana in Vanuatu) wanted fancy goodies like canned hams, cars, etc etc, but never got them... they got so PO'd at the Anglo missionaries that they befriended the Japanese invaders. Neither one gave them cargo. Most recently, the Australian government said sorry, but no freebies for the Jon Frum cult... if they want goodies like cars and boomboxes they'll have to buy them.

 

Maybe it's just me... I don't find jokes about guys in stick huts and grass skirts with new Ferraris funny.

[Buddha]

I very much enjoy discussions about spirituality, but I am aware of the truth that they reveal much more about the level of consciousness of the people having the discussions, than they do about the transcendent nature of God.

 

With so many diverse opinions about God, of course it's not possible that God could fit into them all, as many are mutually exclusive -- but does God indeed fit into any human thought system?

 

To the original poster, hello. You sound frustrated in your quest for answers about life. Are you willing to ask the question of whether you are asking the wrong questions? If you really, REALLY want answers and are genuinely willing to have your mind opened and enlightened, keep listening. Your current fear and misunderstanding of God is temporary, but only if you want it to be.

 

Not everyone finds answers that ring true to them in the Bible, even though it is a comfort and a guide to many. For some people, experience leads them along different roads. That's fine. There are many ways to grow.

 

But as we're talking here about Jesus, let me pick up on one thing he said. The people around Jesus were often looking for signs, for outer confirmation of God, and trying to please God by fasting, by speaking loud prayers, by preaching in the streets.

 

But Jesus taught that the kingdom of God comes not through observation -- and that has two meanings. Observation can mean the things we see, or the things we do. You can observe some outer event or 'sign' and think it's coming from God, or you can observe a fast or a period of penance or a prayer time or not eating meat on Fridays or any other outer observation.

 

Neither of these 'observations' will lead you to God, and any Bible-believing Christian should be telling you so, for Jesus himself said it. Jesus said the kingdom of God comes NOT with observation. He said the kingdom of God is within you.

 

Think about this. The kingdom of God is within you. What could that possibly mean? It's a question I pondered for many years, before receiving the answer. The secret to life, if you like, the secret to God (which is not really a secret), is contained within that teaching.

 

I'm not trying to be cryptic, I'm suggesting how you might start to think about God, in order to get answers that are not contained in any book.

 

There was a book released a few years ago called The Secret. I didn't think the book was very inspired in many ways, but it did contain a grain of truth about receiving what you seek. But then so did Field of Dreams. "If you build it, he will come" was right for baseball, and it's also right for God.

 

Ask with an open heart. Something along the lines of "I want to know the truth, whatever the answer is. Even if it's hard to understand or something completely different to what I think I know now, I still want to know" will do. You would be amazed how many millions of well-meaning people have not yet sat down with God and said those words from the heart. If you don't want to be one of them, you don't have to be.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Buddha

[Eve]

Who are you Buddha? That was some pretty deep **** said there..

 

Why call yourself Buddha though? Mostly Buddhists are all like, Christianity is evil, even though we don't believe in evil. In fact there is no 'we' only perception ... blah blah.. well this is only on the internet. I have not found this in real life. Buddhists are cool.

 

Who are you? Tell me what you believe and why please. Obviously be clever and weave it into the OPs question.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[Buddha]

Who are you Buddha?

 

Hello Eve

 

I am a seeker of the truth, as you are. I wouldn't classify myself as a Buddhist... but then, the Buddha is not a Buddhist.

 

Certainly, no true spiritual person or child of the infinite (regardless of which earthly doctrine they choose to identify with) would describe another human as evil if they understood enough about life and about the connectedness of the whole.

 

My beliefs will no doubt reveal themselves in future posts, but you asked about the original poster's question, so let me say a word or two about that. Here is the post Butterflying made:

 

If God sacrificed his only son (allowed him to be tortured, cruxified, ect) how could anyone possibly expect God to treat them any better? Christians are really saying "Yay! Some innocent guy was brutally murdered just so I could have a chance at spending an eternity in Heaven with God. And it's really like the lottery. You may not even be perfect enough to go there, in which case, Jesus' death will have been in vain. What a load of crap!!!![/Quote]There are many basic assumptions written into the Christian church's teaching on vicarious atonement. I will list a few that come to mind:

 

1. Humans have sinned - some believe that humans are inherently sinners by virtue of being born or somehow 'inheriting sin' from their distant ancestors

2. The sin of humans is so bad, there was a time when God could not forgive it

3. Human sin has the power to change the nature of God and/or the nature of God is unforgiving

4. Man cannot be reconciled with God without outside help

 

When I read even these few assumptions (and there are many more) which are accepted by those who believe in vicarious atonement, I see they spring from what I would call a fear-based mindset. The fear is that God is angry, must be appeased, and because humans cannot appease almighty God on their own, someone else is needed to intervene.

 

I do not fear God, and because I do not experience God through the filter of a fear-based mindset, a belief in vicarious atonement is not something I share. Blood sacrifice is not now and never has been demanded by God. Yes, Jesus died, but not for the sins of the world. For a good cause, but not to enable millions of people to give up their power to take responsibility for themselves.

 

The path to God is one of inner growth and revelation. A belief in vicarious atonement is part of an outer belief system which is largely created by man, for mischievous reasons in the most part. It's also a stumbling block for many sincere seekers. You can go so far with it, but when you hold onto the belief that you don't need to get past it, you never will. Of course, the belief can be transcended by anyone willing to question its basic tenets and look beyond what they think they already know.

 

The OP sounds angry at God, but makes the mistake of thinking God is also angry. God is not angry; bemused, probably, at the ways human beings come up with ways to fit God into their own personal psychological imbalances, but not angry.

 

Butterflying is right that if God had demanded the blood sacrifice of Jesus, that would be an act of anger. I'm not interested in that God, because, frankly, that God doesn't actually exist. But some people find comfort in the image of an angry God, because then they have something to fight against, to disbelieve, to blame for the problems in their lives.

 

The fact that God is never less than love makes people wary for some reason. If they can do nothing to earn the love of God, and nothing to lose it, what would that mean for their lives? Anger is something we can relate to, box up and think we understand. Dismissing unconditional love is harder, because the concept is harder to grasp.

 

So most of the religious world spins in circles wondering what God is thinking, whether they make the mark, what will happen if they fail, does hell exist, did letting that boy touch me in the fourth grade mean I'll never get to heaven, and whatever else fills the minds of people trapped in fear.

 

Meanwhile, God is smiling at us all from every point of light in the universe and saying "This is my beloved child, in whom I am well pleased".

[quankanne]

beautiful posts, Buddha, because they give lots of good stuff to ponder. Like your comment I've highlighted below:

 

The kingdom of God is within you. What could that possibly mean? It's a question I pondered for many years, before receiving the answer. The secret to life, if you like, the secret to God (which is not really a secret), is contained within that teaching.

 

interesting that you bring this up, because so many of us find this a cryptic answer. And now I'm starting to wonder if it's not all tied into that spark of divinity God imparted to us when he created us? Not that we are minor deities ourselves, but that we have the capability (i.e., the Kingdom of Heaven) within us to be one with him when we tap into that spart ...

[shadowofman]

They hung him on a cross,

They hung him on a cross,

They hung him on a cross for me.

One day when I was lost,

They hung him on a cross.

They hung him on a cross for me.

 

They wooped him up a hill,

They wooped him up a hill,

They wooped him up a hill for me.

One day when I was lost,

They hung him on a cross.

They wooped him up a hill for me.

 

He never said among them word,

They never said among them word,

They never said among them word for me.

One day when I was lost,

They hung him on the cross.

They hung him on the cross for me.

 

They bit him in the side,

They bit him in the side,

They bit him in the side for me.

One day when I was lost,

They hung him on the cross.

They hung him on the cross for me.

 

He hung his head and died.

He hung his head and died.

He hung his head and died for me.

One day when I was lost,

They hung him on the cross.

They hung him on the cross for me.

[curredreeetcj]

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[Rooster_DAR]

A pity for them. Christians have always been spurned and persecuted, today's persecutors are simply of a different brand because they don't have the power to crucify us or feed us to lions.

 

Actually, Christians have also have historically been the persecutors against people who didn't accept their views.

 

 

http://zealfortruth.org/2008/02/christianity-is-an-inherently-violent-religion/

[pureinheart]

I completely understand. I was a part of the Catholic church for about 20 years. What you don't understand is the meaning of the word "sacrifice". Not trying to be even remotely snide, but a dictionary can help you with this problem. Again, I pointed out that Jesus is a "god", and a part of your capital- G "god", and also that this god split itself into three. I know exactly what you worship and all you did was regurgitate my statements.

 

Jesus didn't know what was going on? According to Mark 8, verse 31, and John 10, verses 17-18, he did.

 

The problem with trying to understand your viewpoint is not that I am incapable or unwilling, it's that it lacks credibility -- even amongst other Christians. Not all of you believe in the trinity or worship Jesus as "God". The point, again, which you adroitly miss is that a god that can "die"and be "resurrected" ad infinitum because of its godly powers is making no sacrifice whatsoever.

 

Hey TJ...how goes it???

 

I believe in the Trinity ...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are all "God", although serve different functions...much like an egg..you have the shell, yoke and the white stuff...it's still an egg, with shell, yoke and white stuff having different functions.

 

Concerning the "sacrifice"...when Jesus was hanging on the cross, at some point he bore the sins of all mankind, past, present and future. Because God cannot look at sin, He had to "turn" for a time...this is why Jesus asked the Father why had He forsaken Him...then when the price was paid for sin, Jesus proclaimed that it was finished. The sacrifice for Jesus was that period of time that He was separated from God.

 

I can understand (to the best my human state allows) as being separated from God would be the most horrible thing in the world...

 

Thank You Jesus for paying my price...

[Trojan John]

Hey TJ...how goes it???

 

I believe in the Trinity ...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are all "God", although serve different functions...much like an egg..you have the shell, yoke and the white stuff...it's still an egg, with shell, yoke and white stuff having different functions.

 

Concerning the "sacrifice"...when Jesus was hanging on the cross, at some point he bore the sins of all mankind, past, present and future. Because God cannot look at sin, He had to "turn" for a time...this is why Jesus asked the Father why had He forsaken Him...then when the price was paid for sin, Jesus proclaimed that it was finished. The sacrifice for Jesus was that period of time that He was separated from God.

 

I can understand (to the best my human state allows) as being separated from God would be the most horrible thing in the world...

 

Thank You Jesus for paying my price...

 

Thanks, pureinheart, I'm doing well and I hope that you are, too.

 

In your first point you established that in the Trinity you have "God the Son." So Jesus is God. Perhaps a tripartite god can turn away from 1/3 of itself, but that part still knows that it is god, does it not? It still knew what was going to happen and it knows the ultimate outcome of the situation -- namely that it will be fully joined back to itself again. Hardly a sacrifice.

 

In essence, I can neither believe in nor adhere to the ex post facto application of punishment for supposed crime committed before my birth. If I could then I would, for example, hold every (Euro) American alive today for the horrific treatment of African slaves and indigenous Americans in the past; every German for the Holocaust.

 

I neither believe in nor adhere to the notion that bloody or burnt offering could ever possibly atone for my "sins" nor the "sins of the world." No man should rest in prison for my crimes; no animal shall be slaughtered to appease my god. I alone am responsible for my actions. No man nor god nor devil is responsible for what I do, ill or good.

[Dust]

When I was a young child I remember not understanding what religion was. I remember being taught to believe in things like god as well as santa etc. Then as I got smarter I stopped believing. When I got even smarter like during college I found myself starting to believe again. Finally, at the point where I am now I believe there is something bigger then myself but I don’t have any organized religious beliefs such as god wrote the bible etc.