If you believe in God...

[Rooster_DAR]

When I was a young child I remember not understanding what religion was. I remember being taught to believe in things like god as well as santa etc. Then as I got smarter I stopped believing. When I got even smarter like during college I found myself starting to believe again. Finally, at the point where I am now I believe there is something bigger then myself but I don’t have any organized religious beliefs such as god wrote the bible etc.

 

Interesting.....

 

There may be something bigger than any of us know out there, I don't think even the most logical scientists would say for sure that there isn't. But I do know, the religions and gods that humans have traditionally created and worshiped are nothing more than our primal disposition to rationalize what we cannot explain into something that is rational.

 

Cheers!

[TheLoneSock]

But I do know, the religions and gods that humans have traditionally created and worshiped are nothing more than our primal disposition to rationalize what we cannot explain into something that is rational.

 

I'm so glad that you know this to be certain, undeniable fact. That's such a relief that someone finally has the answer. Thanks for laying it all out and showing us that the %90 of the worlds population who do believe in a god are all just full of sh*t. You're an amazing contribution to society! God bless you!

 

Woops...

[Dust]

I'm so glad that you know this to be certain, undeniable fact. That's such a relief that someone finally has the answer. Thanks for laying it all out and showing us that the %90 of the worlds population who do believe in a god are all just full of sh*t. You're an amazing contribution to society! God bless you!

 

Woops...

 

Well your religion didn’t exist for %99.999 of human existence. (I mean unless you believe humans are only a few thousand years old like most Christians thought until science showed we’ve been around for roughly half a million years) So, your 90 percent argument falls short on that. Also 90% is just a number you pulled out of your ass considering Christians probably make up less then 30% and believe in a quite different god then the other religions. You can’t just say all religions are right when they have contrasting beliefs. It would be like measuring something in kilometer and miles and having the measurement be the exact same number.

 

All religion is faith based. Something you prove through feeling rather then any kind of real understanding of it. Doesn’t mean its false. Problem is people have brought this faith based thinking into politics and science. More and more I see science and politics treated as a religion.

 

Things like intelligent design for example deeply offend me. That is not proper topic for a science class. It is not part of the scientific process to disprove or prove god. This is a topic for religious studies. If a church wants to spend time talking about scientific process while arguing it is the hand of an intelligent designer that is for them. That is not for science class. It would be no different then learning prayers in French class.

 

On the other end of the spectrum people don’t understand science. They don’t understand evolution. They take it on faith the same way they would a religion. They have no understanding of science what so ever. The difference of course being that when done properly science has evidence to back up its claims and shouldn’t be faith based.

 

Same with politics. Being a Republican or Democrat has become a crazy thing. It shouldn’t be that way. It’s not a religion and people need to think critically bout their government.

 

To the OP I say this. There is no pleasure with out pain, more to the point there is no creation with out destruction.

 

Hopefully I get my points across but as usual this is an interesting yet difficult subject to talk about. Probably even harder to write about as we do here.

[HeartShineGirl]

If God sacrificed his only son (allowed him to be tortured, cruxified, ect) how could anyone possibly expect God to treat them any better? Christians are really saying "Yay! Some innocent guy was brutally murdered just so I could have a chance at spending an eternity in Heaven with God. And it's really like the lottery. You may not even be perfect enough to go there, in which case, Jesus' death will have been in vain. What a load of crap!!!!

 

 

I believe in the Mythology of Gods/Goddesses. The tales of heroic adventures. Though I also believe many of these stories have been embellished in tale to teach lessons to the people of the ages for which the Myths developed, and they continue to be utilized as a guiding tool by different groups for not only the purpose of good, but the purpose of gain.

 

What matters most is our individual relationship to spirituality in any form/God/Goddess we desire; and beliefs that give us the will to live and be good.

[Trojan John]

I believe in the Mythology of Gods/Goddesses. The tales of heroic adventures. Though I also believe many of these stories have been embellished in tale to teach lessons to the people of the ages for which the Myths developed, and they continue to be utilized as a guiding tool by different groups for not only the purpose of good, but the purpose of gain.

 

What matters most is our individual relationship to spirituality in any form/God/Goddess we desire; and beliefs that give us the will to live and be good.

 

I understand the part about mythology being used to teach lessons, but what I don't understand is why you need to believe in said myths in order to be a good person or have the will to live.

 

Would you be out committing crimes if you didn't believe? Would you be suicidal because you didn't have a personal relationship with some imagined god?

[Dust]

I understand the part about mythology being used to teach lessons, but what I don't understand is why you need to believe in said myths in order to be a good person or have the will to live.

 

Would you be out committing crimes if you didn't believe? Would you be suicidal because you didn't have a personal relationship with some imagined god?

 

I think you are missing what HeartShineGirl said. She believes there for it is. Like creating your own universe if I understand her correctly.

[Rooster_DAR]

òîæå êàêòî ècêàë ýòó òàáëè÷êó! â îáùåìòî íå ñëîæíî îáúÿñíèòü ñëîâåñíî ïîïðîáóþ! öèôðû ñ ïÿòåðêè äî åäèíèöû ãäå òâåðäîñòü êåðàìè÷åñêîãî ãðàíèòà ïî âîçðîñòàíèþ óñèëÿåòñÿ. ó ìåíÿ åñòü êàòàëîã áðàë åãî îòñþäà êåðàìè÷åñêàÿ ïëèòêà kerama marazzi íàéäè â ýëåêòðîííîì âèäå â êîíöå êàòàëîãà äîëæíû áûòü óñëîâíûå ðàçøèôðîâêè â êîòîðûõ âñå è ðàñøèôðîâàíî!

 

 

Be careful with the link above, it's a spammer and the link could be malware or virus.

[TaraMaiden]

It reminds me of the pattern on my retro-sixties shower curtain....

[Dust]

Be careful with the link above, it's a spammer and the link could be malware or virus.

 

Thank you for the obvious advice.

[Taramere]

I understand the part about mythology being used to teach lessons, but what I don't understand is why you need to believe in said myths in order to be a good person or have the will to live.

 

Would you be out committing crimes if you didn't believe? Would you be suicidal because you didn't have a personal relationship with some imagined god?

 

If somebody has a faith that gives them internal strength and a sense of peace, and doesn't manifest itself in harmful/oppressive actions against other people, then having that faith seems a good and rational decision for them to make - even if the faith isn't rooted in anything that has been scientifically proven.

 

Perhaps it helps them towards some meditative state where they're not reliant on other human beings to give them reassurance that they're okay....but where they have a commitment (required by their faith) to strive towards upholding certain values. I think the values such as peacefulness, freeing oneself from hatred or envy etc are promoted in the main religious faiths would generally be considered as positive values in secular societies as well as religious ones.

 

The problems set in when people who have malignant agendas start to use religion as a tool to promote those agendas. The same thing happens with psychology. Somebody with a good understanding of psychology can use their knowledge to help others in a positive way, or they can use it to control and influence others in a harmful manner.

 

As to why people must believe in the notion of an all powerful, perfect being in order for the faith to work positively for them....well, few things relating to promoting inner peace work unless you believe in them. A lot of people think things like hypnotherapy and CBT counselling are crap. Others swear by them. These methods of trying to help people towards a healthier psychological state won't work on those who don't believe in their effectiveness.

 

Sometimes for people to get beyond psychological factors that are holding them back or keeping them in an unhappy state, they have to start developing a belief that won't be universally regarded as a rational one.

[TheLoneSock]

Well your religion didn’t exist for %99.999 of human existence.

 

Hmm, and which religion do you claim that I belong to?

 

Oh, and I didn't just pull that number out of my arse. In fact, I was being a tad lenient:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

 

"A 1995 survey attributed to the Encyclopedia Britannica indicates that the non-religious are about 14.7% of the world's population, and atheists around 3.8%. Another survey attributed to Britannica shows the population of atheists at around 2.4% of the world's population"

 

Taking the information from the two different studies and gaining the average we come to %9.2 of people as non believers. Making the actual number of people who do believe in a god: %90.8.

 

Grant it, it's only Wiki. But you're free to dig up a 'better' source to refute that number if you like. Not that it will matter, or change anything.

[Dust]

Hmm, and which religion do you claim that I belong to?

 

Oh, and I didn't just pull that number out of my arse. In fact, I was being a tad lenient:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

 

"A 1995 survey attributed to the Encyclopedia Britannica indicates that the non-religious are about 14.7% of the world's population, and atheists around 3.8%. Another survey attributed to Britannica shows the population of atheists at around 2.4% of the world's population"

 

Taking the information from the two different studies and gaining the average we come to %9.2 of people as non believers. Making the actual number of people who do believe in a god: %90.8.

 

Grant it, it's only Wiki. But you're free to dig up a 'better' source to refute that number if you like. Not that it will matter, or change anything.

 

It actually doesn’t matter what religion you belong to because pre-history accounts for most of our existence.

 

Tell me why do you waste our time if it doesn’t matter and won’t change anything?

 

You’re Wikipedia links fall short if you follow them to their sources.

[florence of suburbia]

To paraphrase someone smarter than me: It doesn't necessarily bother me that extraordinary, unverifiable claims are made. It's when extraordinary demands are then imposed, based on those claims.

[TheLoneSock]

It actually doesn’t matter what religion you belong to because pre-history accounts for most of our existence.

 

Tell me why do you waste our time if it doesn’t matter and won’t change anything?

 

You’re Wikipedia links fall short if you follow them to their sources.

 

I'm glad we both agree that it doesn't really matter then

 

Are you going to point me to better sources or simply disregard the one I gave?

 

Actually, I already know the answer to that question. Again we land on it not mattering.

[Dust]

I'm glad we both agree that it doesn't really matter then

 

Are you going to point me to better sources or simply disregard the one I gave?

 

Actually, I already know the answer to that question. Again we land on it not mattering.

 

If you’re trying to communicate something to me I have no idea what it is? All I wanted you to understand was your statistics means nothing and I can only assume you are agreeing.

[TheLoneSock]

If you’re trying to communicate something to me I have no idea what it is?

 

Was this a question? It sounds like a statement.

 

Yes, I agree with you that the information is meaningless because anyone who doesn't like what it says can and will simply disregard it. That's exactly what just happened.

[Dust]

Was this a question? It sounds like a statement.

 

Yes, I agree with you that the information is meaningless because anyone who doesn't like what it says can and will simply disregard it. That's exactly what just happened.

 

To go back to the OP, do you believe in god, a Christian god? If you do its based on faith not statistics. Whether you were of the minority of majority has nothing to do with that faith based belief.

[TheLoneSock]

To go back to the OP, do you believe in god, a Christian god? If you do its based on faith not statistics. Whether you were of the minority of majority has nothing to do with that faith based belief.

 

You refuted my statement saying that %90 of modern people do believe in a god of some kind, by telling me I pulled it out of my "a**". Then when I give a source showing where I got the statistic, you simply deflected it.

 

I'm not sure why I'm surprised, I should have expected it.

[Dust]

You refuted my statement saying that %90 of modern people do believe in a god of some kind, by telling me I pulled it out of my "a**". Then when I give a source showing where I got the statistic, you simply deflected it.

 

I'm not sure why I'm surprised, I should have expected it.

 

Actually you were refuting something Rooster Dar said and you obviously didn’t understand what you were refuting. He spoke about humans through out history. You through some random statistic about religious beliefs when all you really have is faith. I don’t think anything is wrong with faith but now you throw out phony statistics based on an article you read on Wikipedia on atheists. By your own argument the Christian god doesn’t exist because the majority of people on earth aren’t Christians?

[TheLoneSock]

Actually you were refuting something Rooster Dar said and you obviously didn’t understand what you were refuting. He spoke about humans through out history. You through some random statistic about religious beliefs when all you really have is faith. I don’t think anything is wrong with faith but now you throw out phony statistics based on an article you read on Wikipedia on atheists. By your own argument the Christian god doesn’t exist because the majority of people on earth aren’t Christians?

 

Lol nope, wrong again.

 

I was refuting this:

 

But I do know, the religions and gods that humans have traditionally createdand worshiped are nothing more than our primal disposition to rationalize what we cannot explain into something that is rational.

 

He is including all religions past and present in this sweeping statement. I was pointing out through sarcasm that he seems to think that the %90 of people in the world who do believe in a god lack intelligence or rational thinking. It's simply sugar coated slander against people who are not atheist.

 

Then we come to the part where you completely disregarded the statistic I showed refuting his statement.

 

How long would you like to go around in circles about this?

[Dust]

Lol nope, wrong again.

 

I was refuting this:

 

 

 

He is including all religions past and present in this sweeping statement. I was pointing out through sarcasm that he seems to think that the %90 of people in the world who do believe in a god lack intelligence or rational thinking. It's simply sugar coated slander against people who are not atheist.

 

Then we come to the part where you completely disregarded the statistic I showed refuting his statement.

 

How long would you like to go around in circles about this?

 

You’ve proven my own point for me so no need to go around in circles.

[skydiveaddict]

Riddle me this:

 

A god creates his son, who is also somehow simultaneously himself, on the planet Earth. He knows that he is going to "die" and be resurrected again with all his godly powers. What did he actually sacrifice?

 

In Christian religions, God did not "create" His Son. You are right, God is "simultaneously" Father, Son and Holy spirit, which existed from the beginning of time. But God chose to become man (and at the same time still sinless and Devine). He sent the Son to redeem us from sin by the ultimate sacrifice, becoming human and enduring His own suffering and death on our behalf for the forgiveness on sins.

[TaraMaiden]

After 40 years as a Roman Catholic, I still didn't get it.

And then I realised why.

because there was absolutely no sense, no answer and no logic to it.

 

I can't deal with something illogical, senseless and unanswerable.

Except by the fact that it isn't actually true....

 

People told me I had to have faith.

I would ask them, "Ok......Why?"

 

And then they were at a loss as to expand on that....

[skydiveaddict]

After 40 years as a Roman Catholic, I still didn't get it.

And then I realised why.

because there was absolutely no sense, no answer and no logic to it.

 

I can't deal with something illogical, senseless and unanswerable.

Except by the fact that it isn't actually true....

 

People told me I had to have faith.

I would ask them, "Ok......Why?"

 

And then they were at a loss as to expand on that....

 

 

I am 52 years a Roman Catholic, and I am constantly riddled with doubt.

The only thing I might disagree with you on is when you say "by the fact that it isn't actually true". I guess I'm just not convinced of that yet.

[TaraMaiden]

Please underatand: These are just my points of view, and I'm not out to pick an argument with anyone - I'm just saying how it is with me:

 

These are doubts I was not satisfied in nurturing.

I simply refused to exist within a religious environment where questions could not be answered, and doubt was par for the course.

 

Why should I?

 

Once upon a time, the masses were largely uneducated, and far easier to manipulate, through fear, through local government, through the church and through social hierarchy.

The "lower" you were, the more influenced you could be.

You knew your place, and if someone "above" you told you something was so, then you took it, accepted it as being part of the natural order of things, toed the line and did as you were bid.

 

Since the advent of general education, people learning to read, and social equality being more broadly established, people have become more curious, more questioning, more educated and are more apt to challenge what once were conventionally accepted ideas.

And since the advent of the Internet, progress has become unstoppable.

The influence of both 'Church' (covering all manner of different religious establishments) and State are more open to scrutiny and examination.

 

I believe that this progress has coincided with, and has been matched by equally zealous and fanatical measures taken by some Religious factions, and Governments, in order to claw back control and domination.

 

Fortunately, here in the West, we have the freedom and democracy to be able to either adhere to those principles - or choose, lawfully, to shun them.

 

I chose the latter.

Because I could.

And I could, because no matter how hard I tried (and please believe me, I did try!) I could not for the life of me, make any sense of some things, and could not, in all consciousness, logically, with sound reasoning, simply rely on measures of 'faith' and 'doubt'.

 

I worked hard, and in discussions, in personal research, in broad reading and analysis, in scrutiny and question, I eliminated the impossible.

The Improbable, became more and more probable as I went on.

And what remained for me, was that this was a man-made progressive and elaborate fabrication.

It had to be.

There is no other logical conclusion.

If there is no logic, no reason, no explanation and no sequential progress - it's not a fact.

 

And I'm afraid, in matters of spirituality, devotional calling and religion, I cannot deal in what is not fact.

 

My 2 cents.