Philetus Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 Only people with little to no sense of decency do what you've described here, Max--IF they are exclusively dating someone/in a relationship. Like Stung said, you have to keep in mind that many male posters here are utterly convinced that women as a whole have no sense of decency as a result of their own negative experiences. I believe that if you're seeing someone, up until there's been an explicit agreement to be exclusive, both people are free to do whatever. It's dangerous in these times to assume that just because you're dating/sleeping with someone, that they're not dating/sleeping with other people if you haven't yet agreed to exclusivity. I wouldn't sleep with more than one person at a time, but there are people who can handle that, and as long as all parties involved are informed of what's going on and are okay with it, there is nothing wrong with it, IMO. And of course, there's nothing wrong with choosing not to date someone who hooks up with other people in the meantime. Cannot have said it better. If I'm in a relationship, and we have talked about being exclusive, then I do not have sex - or even flirt - outside that. However, when I'm not in a relationship, I have casual sex, ONS, FWB, and will date more than one person at a time. HOWEVER, I'm up front about it.
meerkat stew Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I mean yes there are people out there who just sleep with people to sleep with people in a FWB situation, but those are the minority, You are making a mistake in believing this in my experience.
Author Mad Max Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 Cannot have said it better. If I'm in a relationship, and we have talked about being exclusive, then I do not have sex - or even flirt - outside that. However, when I'm not in a relationship, I have casual sex, ONS, FWB, and will date more than one person at a time. HOWEVER, I'm up front about it. That was my issue. She hid it, I found it through a friend, and she flipped. This is why I don't hook up. I don't trust the woman enough to only sleep with me and I value my health.
InceptorsRule Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 Mad Max, in addition to meerkat's cogent observations, pretty much all of which I concur with, one of the dynamics you need to be aware of is that probably the vast majority of attractive women you will ever meet, will NOT completely dump an existing, unsatisfactory relationship until they have first selected the new guy, or at least have a very good idea of who it's going to be. They are like a monkey swinging from tree to tree who never lets go of one branch unless the next one is already in the other hand. In effect, what is actually going on is that YOU as the "new guy" will actually quite frequently be the "Other Man," at least until you have passed whatever audition she has for you. Now she is not going to TELL you she's actually ALREADY, or STILL, in another existing relationship whilst auditioning you as the "replacement guy." What is most likely happening is NOT that the new girl you are going out with is some loose chick with a random FWB or f-buddy, in actuality, she's someone who's in a relationship with another guy, she has an actual boyfriend, that's why she's having sex with the guy; but she's looking for the new relationship. But she can't just cut the guy loose BEFORE finding her new man--most attractive women are simply not socialized to be "alone" for any period of time. In the real life example you provided, it would fit perfectly with what I'm talking about. Why would the girl you were starting to date NOT tell you about some other guy she was having sex with on a regular basis? Well the most obvious reason is that HE is "the boyfriend" and if she tells you about him then obviously that would create a risk of confrontation or some other way that her boyfriend would find out that she is in essence cheating on him (albeit not sexually--YET). So it is not simply a matter of accepting that attractive women have a lot of options and often make use of them. It is a matter of realizing that YOU are simply one of their options.
phineas Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 If she's dating me, yet sleeping with a FWB behind my back, he's getting sex for free where as I'm paying for it. This is why STD testing is mandatory for me before I sleep with someone. I don't trust them to do it themselves. Do you tell women that they have to agree to be exclusive before you take them on a first date?
InceptorsRule Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 That was my issue. She hid it, I found it through a friend, and she flipped. This is why I don't hook up. I don't trust the woman enough to only sleep with me and I value my health. She "flipped"? Yup. The other guy was actually her boyfriend and she was scared sh*tless he would find out about you. There's no other reason for her to have "flipped" if it was her understanding that you two were "non exclusive." She was worried about HIM finding out about YOU, not the other way round.
threebyfate Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I don't necessarily mean strangers. Perhaps I should have worded it a bit differently. What I meant was those with options have people they hook up with, even if they're dating someone. I was dating this girl once and my friend told me she was banging this guy and I immediately stopped seeing her and she had the balls to give me a hard time. She claimed we weren't exclusive and I told her if she was doing this now, god knows what she'd be doing if we were "exclusive". I mean I could have plenty of options if I put myself out there more, but I still wouldn't sleep with someone without STD testing. The guys on this site seem to be adamant that any girl with options is hooking up with people and continue to do so even when they're dating someone.She's right about an exclusivity agreement. But it's arguable that there's an ethics to dating where ethical dating means you're upfront to all your partners. On the otherhand, to expect that everyone lives by the same ethics isn't realistic. For most people, self-interest drives their behaviour.
Author Mad Max Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 Do you tell women that they have to agree to be exclusive before you take them on a first date? I tell them if there's anyone else, they better say so. I'm honest and I expect complete honesty in return.
phineas Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 That was my issue. She hid it, I found it through a friend, and she flipped. This is why I don't hook up. I don't trust the woman enough to only sleep with me and I value my health. when you say she hid it, do you mean you asked her if she was seeing anyone else & she lied about it or that you just didn't ask & assumed you were the only one she was seeing.
MrNate Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 Meerkat's post, though sometime crazy in nature (haha) does have a truthful ring to it. Especially in terms of men needing to get their expectations up to date. I'll elaborate further, but I'm off to get my swole on.
Author Mad Max Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 She "flipped"? Yup. The other guy was actually her boyfriend and she was scared sh*tless he would find out about you. There's no other reason for her to have "flipped" if it was her understanding that you two were "non exclusive." She was worried about HIM finding out about YOU, not the other way round. So essentially, she was cheating? Lovely. I continue to attract promiscuous and otherwise low class girls.
Philetus Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 ... one of the dynamics you need to be aware of is that probably the vast majority of attractive women you will ever meet, will NOT completely dump an existing, unsatisfactory relationship until they have first selected the new guy, or at least have a very good idea of who it's going to be. They are like a monkey swinging from tree to tree who never lets go of one branch unless the next one is already in the other hand. So it is not simply a matter of accepting that attractive women have a lot of options and often make use of them. It is a matter of realizing that YOU are simply one of their options. ... one of the dynamics you need to be aware of is that probably the vast majority of attractive people you will ever meet, will NOT completely dump an existing, unsatisfactory relationship until they have first selected the new person, or at least have a very good idea of who it's going to be. They are like a monkey swinging from tree to tree who never lets go of one branch unless the next one is already in the other hand. So it is not simply a matter of accepting that attractive people have a lot of options and often make use of them. It is a matter of realizing that ANYONE is simply one of their options. Fixed.
Author Mad Max Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 when you say she hid it, do you mean you asked her if she was seeing anyone else & she lied about it or that you just didn't ask & assumed you were the only one she was seeing. I told her I wasn't dating anyone else and assumed she was doing the same. When I found out, I called her out on it and she gave me a hard time. If she told the truth, I would have stopped seeing her anyway, but I at least would have had respect for her. She completely hid her double dating life and flipped when I found out and called her out on it.
phineas Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I tell them if there's anyone else, they better say so. I'm honest and I expect complete honesty in return. Got it. I'm not keen on shareing a woman with another man either. I expect women to have a few guys on the line & even a FWB. It does rais an eyebrow if they try to tell me they have been single for any great amount of time. Because I actually know women with a FWB who do consider themselves single.
InceptorsRule Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 ... one of the dynamics you need to be aware of is that probably the vast majority of attractive people you will ever meet, will NOT completely dump an existing, unsatisfactory relationship until they have first selected the new person, or at least have a very good idea of who it's going to be. They are like a monkey swinging from tree to tree who never lets go of one branch unless the next one is already in the other hand. So it is not simply a matter of accepting that attractive people have a lot of options and often make use of them. It is a matter of realizing that ANYONE is simply one of their options. Fixed. Um, no, since I was addressing Mad Max and he's heterosexual and goes out with women only, not women and men. But thanks for the unnecessary injection of "PC" anyway, you obviously put a lot of effort into it.
phineas Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I told her I wasn't dating anyone else and assumed she was doing the same. When I found out, I called her out on it and she gave me a hard time. If she told the truth, I would have stopped seeing her anyway, but I at least would have had respect for her. She completely hid her double dating life and flipped when I found out and called her out on it. Yeah, she knew what you were getting at when you told her that. I understand your annoyance now.
Author Mad Max Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 Coincedence that the women disappeared?
Philetus Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 Um, no, since I was addressing Mad Max and he's heterosexual and goes out with women only, not women and men. But thanks for the unnecessary injection of "PC" anyway, you obviously put a lot of effort into it. PC? That's funny. I take it the mere use of that term renders my argument null and void even if it isn't applicable? The fact is, women are not the only ones who do that and I was simply pointing it out. If anyone is being honest, they'd know that.
meerkat stew Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 (edited) ... one of the dynamics you need to be aware of is that probably the vast majority of attractive people... No, average women, and average men, are very differently situated in terms of OP's question as the average woman has vastly more sexual/dating opportunity and options open to her than the average man does. Not a value statement, just a given reality. Attractive women have new "jumping branch prospects" extended to them constantly and without effort during the course of their preexisting relationships, whereas men do not unless they strive for such proactively and risk their existing relationship in the process. OP topic is not one where you can smooth out the gender content and make some politically correct platitude out of a sexist platitude Women above a certain low X percentile of desirability needn't ever go without sex or a relationship if they don't choose to voluntarily. Not the case for men below the ~90th percentile of attractiveness. Edited September 2, 2010 by meerkat stew
InceptorsRule Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 Coincedence that the women disappeared? Maybe, but actually I think your thread has hit a real nerve because you've actually started an "exploration" about common ways that women often behave but which they don't want to own up to it, because to be frank about this stuff effectively "knocks them off the pedestal." Getting back to the earlier point I made, maybe she was NOT cheating. However her behavior as described by you--secretly having sex with another guy without telling you; flipping out when discovered; compartmentalization--are all entirely CONSISTENT with someone who believes that they are cheating. On someone. I don't really KNOW for a fact that the other guy she was having sex with was an actual existing "boyfriend" who preceded your brief involvement as her dating partner. However--if she was indeed "cool" with the notion of non-exclusivity, early on in her dating relationship with you, then why not be open and above board about it? And, if her failure to tell you about her other involvement was inadvertent/an oversight/a miscommunication/misunderstanding, why would she "flip out" on you?
dispatch3d Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I told her I wasn't dating anyone else and assumed she was doing the same. When I found out, I called her out on it and she gave me a hard time. If she told the truth, I would have stopped seeing her anyway, but I at least would have had respect for her. She completely hid her double dating life and flipped when I found out and called her out on it. if she told the truth? Want her to grow a dick while she's at it? Lol. I was drinking last week and a girl said "I can't lie. blablabla it's crazy!" And I thought to myself, your either lying now or there is a special reason you believe this... haha she's really religious. Problem solved. Seriously, open your eyes to what women are like man. Read this. Stop being so judgemental! and ala secret society none of them are going to admit to anything: http://www.bristollair.com/inner-game/nature-and-reality/secret-society.html
meerkat stew Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I don't see the "cheating" line of discussion as particularly productive because we just don't have enough information. OP, it boils down to this, either get comfortable with the fact that a woman you find attractive is most likely having sex with some man or men when you meet her, even though she is technically single, or risk lots of disappointment in your romantic life. Or you can purposefully seek out women who have been raised in a very sheltered, fundamentalist environment and know that expecting those types to ever have sex with you before marriage is unrealistic. Today, there just isn't much middle ground any more.
Author Mad Max Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 if she told the truth? Want her to grow a dick while she's at it? Lol. I was drinking last week and a girl said "I can't lie. blablabla it's crazy!" And I thought to myself, your either lying now or there is a special reason you believe this... haha she's really religious. Problem solved. Seriously, open your eyes to what women are like man. Read this. Stop being so judgemental! and ala secret society none of them are going to admit to anything: http://www.bristollair.com/inner-game/nature-and-reality/secret-society.html It has nothing to do with being judgmental. I have the right to expect a woman to not sleep around.
Stung Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I told her I wasn't dating anyone else and assumed she was doing the same. When I found out, I called her out on it and she gave me a hard time. If she told the truth, I would have stopped seeing her anyway, but I at least would have had respect for her. She completely hid her double dating life and flipped when I found out and called her out on it. If you brought up the subject and she was evasive, misleading, lied by omission, etc. then yes, IMO she was slippery with her ethics at best and I wouldn't have put up with it either. I need to be confident that I know where I stand in my relationships. It's highly speculative to assume she was cheating on an established boyfriend, although of course not impossible.
Stung Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 I don't see the "cheating" line of discussion as particularly productive because we just don't have enough information. OP, it boils down to this, either get comfortable with the fact that a woman you find attractive is most likely having sex with some man or men when you meet her, even though she is technically single, or risk lots of disappointment in your romantic life. Or you can purposefully seek out women who have been raised in a very sheltered, fundamentalist environment and know that expecting those types to ever have sex with you before marriage is unrealistic. Today, there just isn't much middle ground any more. This is your experience, obviously. It was not mine, nor that of most of my friends. Perhaps it boils down to location and local subculture, but I knew and know plenty of single women who are contentedly serially monogamous and not involved in any FWB situations or parallel sexytime scenarios.
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