Men and Women and Porn and Strip Clubs

[Jersey Shortie]

Re: "Bad Men". Not trying to put words into your mouth. So let me ask you this: Do you think that men who go to strip clubs are "Good Men"?

 

My opinion of men that go to strip clubs, is not broken down into "good men" or "bad men". That's apparently your assertion of men that visit strip clubs, not mine.

 

I do think there are certain behaviors that men make justitifications for that aren't fair to his partner or the relationship. Men that visit strip clubs being one of those actions. I personally believe its born out of pure selfishness. It doesn't matter if all his friends are going. Does he want to be a sheep or a leader?

 

I think some men defend certain actions based on being men but refuse to understand why some women respond the way they do for being women. If the guys here were really being logical and rational about this they would fully get why a man going out, with his friends or not, to a place like a strip joint puts his SO in a crappy spot.

 

I think some men expect women to adhere to a higher code of ethics then themselves and want women to smile at them with praise them while they act like indulgent school boys, but they still want to be "men". I think those behaviors can be bad and therefore disrespectful to the relationship. I do think that if we discuss these topics hopefully it enlightens *some* men to be mores sensitive about where a lady can be coming from on this issue. It's ridiculous to sit there and defend going to strip clubs on the merit of being a guy and wanting a little thrill and then shaming their women for being apprehensive about the situation and their justified feelings as a woman. Quite simply. Double standard. Women are suppose to use control and adhere to a higher standard while her man runs off acting on what best suites him.

 

Again, quite simply. It's a sexual situation. Period. It doesn't matter if the strippers are sometimes ugly. It doesn't matter if his friends invited him to go or not. He is a man with his own mind right? No one is forcing him to walk through those doors but himself. The fact that men go on and on about how sexual they are and that the visual of a normal girl in the street with a mini can start sexual thoughts but being in a room full of pretty, naked gyrating girls doesn't, is ludicris and really makes me question how much respect men have for women and their intelligence to begin with.

 

I'm simply trying to impress upon you that your opinion, while completely valid and enforceable within the context of your own personal relationship, is not necessarily valid and true in the context of another woman's relationship.

 

I certainly know it's not and really find it silly that you feel the need to point it out. I never insinuated or said anything different, that it was *all* women that felt the same. Again that's your own assumption. But there are alot of women that do see it the same way.

 

But I'd wager, that you (again correct me if I'm wrong) think my ease about my guy going to a strip club is ludicrous.

 

I think you are entitled to run your relationship any way you want. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to have the opinion I want of your choice. Just as you are free to do with me.

 

 

I don't play the semantics game very well...and I paraphrase a lot. So feel free to correct me when I misrepresent you. I certainly don't want to do that because it only adds to the confusion of an argument.

 

I appreciate that, thanks. And that would work both ways if you happen to feel the same way.

 

 

[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]You’reasin[/FONT][/sIZE]

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If you're creative enough, you can keep things rolling in the bedroom

 

You' reasin, I asked you this before. Why isn't the man making the effort to keep things rolling in the bedroom instead of seeking outside sources of stimulation? Is it not the job of both people in the relationship? It's not her fault if he starts seeking out things from outside the relationship, regardless if she is putting in the effort or not. It's his resposiblity to communicate his needs so that they both can start things rolling in the bedroom.

[angie2443]

For the record, I don't think that a woman who has a problem with her SO going to a strip club is necessarily controlling. Its just who she is. There are manipulating and controlling personalities out there for sure, on both sides of the gender fence, but you can't just say that because she doesn't want her SO going to a strip club that she has her man 'whipped' and probably doesn't let him watch football on sundays. Thats just silly.

 

If everyone understood this, there wouldn't be much of a strip club debate. If you're a man who wants to go to strip clubs, hook up with a woman who doesn't care. If you're a woman who doesn't want her man going to strip clubs, don't hook up with a man who goes to them. If some one changes their mind about this during a relationship, then the relationship is going to need to be ended or re-negotiated.

[Jersey Shortie]

It would be great if life was that simple...just like the 30 minute problem solved sitcom.

[Woggle]

It would be great if life was that simple...just like the 30 minute problem solved sitcom.

 

Women make things much more complicated than they need to be.

[Jersey Shortie]

That's great Woogle, way to try and understand and work with the female gender. Just sit there and say that women are the problem and you don't have to start to admit to your own disfuctions.

[Woggle]

That's great Woogle, way to try and understand and work with the female gender. Just sit there and say that women are the problem and you don't have to start to admit to your own disfuctions.

 

I have learned over the years that I can reason with my cat more successfully than I can with many women. Why even try when I will just end up in the doghouse with the rest of the men anyway. I just do what I want and a woman can take it or leave it. If a woman in my life doesn't like it she can leave.

[carhill]

LOL @ the doghouse. You do realize you were there before this all started, right? They're just perfecting the reasons

[Woggle]

LOL @ the doghouse. You do realize you were there before this all started, right? They're just perfecting the reasons

 

Of course but every man will end up there anyway no matter how good they are to a woman and how much he tries to accomodate her needs. Since a man can't anyway why not do what the hell you want? At the end of the day all men end up in the same space with these women anyway.

[flyingtim01]

I'd be very interested to hear what a lesbian might think of her SO going to a strip club.

[Jersey Shortie]

Of course but every man will end up there anyway no matter how good they are to a woman and how much he tries to accomodate her needs.

 

Well, that's how ablot of women feel when it comes to their men seeking outside sexual titilation. That no matter what she does or provides as a woman, it's not good enough for him.

[angie2443]

Of course but every man will end up there anyway no matter how good they are to a woman and how much he tries to accomodate her needs. Since a man can't anyway why not do what the hell you want? At the end of the day all men end up in the same space with these women anyway.

 

What exactly do you consider to be the "dog house"?

[AAlike]

Well, that's how ablot of women feel when it comes to their men seeking outside sexual titilation. That no matter what she does or provides as a woman, it's not good enough for him.

 

Am I correct, Jersey, that THIS is really the crux of your issue? it seems to me that your problem is not necessarily porn and/or strip clubs specifically, but the concept that a man getting arousal from "outside sources" is demeaning to his GF due to the fact that it portrays the message that the GF is somehow inadequate or "not enough" for the guy.

 

If that is the case, I think that your problems go way deeper than porn or strip clubs. While I completely understand the logic that brought you to this conclusion, it would seem to me that you have an issue with male sexuality in its entirety. Those girls that watch porn with their men are not resolving to the fact that they are "not enough" - in my opinion those girls have realized that although a set of t*ts may be "interchangeable" (which is in fact true - I love my girl to death but will always enjoy starting at a nice exposed rack - hahaha) to their guy it doesn't mean that THEY are interchangable.

[AAlike]

As far as the strip club vs. "platonic date" or whatever else - here's what I think is what I was trying to say...first off, let's separate porn from strip clubs, because I think that they play entirely different roles in guys' lives.

 

generally when we are in relationships, it's natural to feel constrained from time to time. Therefore, every once in a while we want to do something that makes us feel "free" or whatever - or more accurately, something that sort of "captures the essence" of what it was like when we were single. I know that for me, that tends to be something like an all-night poker game, some good beer and a pack of cigs, but for many guys, the strip club can fill that role - and it can also fill that role for many women...whether you find it sexually arousing or just humorous, or both! In many cases for women, that role is filled by getting dolled up in order to "go out with the gals", knowing full well that they will be eye-f*cked by a bunch of dudes. and let's face it, there's a sensation that you get from being noticed by a stranger that you can't get from being complimented or even serenaded by your BF. Just last weekend, my GF went out with some female friends for the first time in a long time, and some dude hit on her and told her that she was gorgeous. I wasn't there, but I'm sure that she may have embellished a tad - and why not? and I could tell when she told me about it that she was pretty pumped about it - I could have gotten upset and been like "well why didn't you just go home with him" - but I knew that it wasn't about the guy at all, it was the effect that it had on HER.

 

I would argue that for most men in relationships that go to strip clubs, it's the camaraderie and the taboo that drives them to go...and if it isn't, then yeah, perhaps there's an issue in the relationship. If a married guy is going alone and every week, that's probably a big deal.

[AAlike]

 

I also noticed that when your girlfriend told you about that guy hitting on her at a bar that you said "I could have told her well why didn't you go home with him"? it's interesting that you made a comment that would typically be the "natural thing to" given a scenario like that. A man does feel threatened just by the thought of another man talking and complimenting his woman, a knee jerk reaction would be "why didn't you just have sex with him and get it over with"

 

 

Yes, but please note that I did not say that would be the "natural" way to react - what I should have said is that that would be the way that a jealous, or distrusting, or probably most accurately immature man or a man that really didn't understand women would have reacted. please keep that in mind!

 

I personally actually felt GOOD for her. does she NEED external validation - no, we're perfectly happy and super attracted to one another, but why should I begrudge her a little thrill that she couldn't get from within the confines of the relationship? as long as there's no follow through, I don't really care.

 

and THAT'S the role that I think that strip clubs can play for a guy that is not necessarily "infidelity" - giving that out-of-relationship little thrill. It doesn't for me personally, but I can see where it would for many guys. when trying to rekindle our "single" fire, what in our minds define our "singleness"? I think for guys in many cases, it's the ability to blindly lust, for women in many cases, it's the ability to be blindly lusted after.

 

 

If a man can think that just from a comment like "wow you are gorgeous" his girlfriend would actually sleep with a guy, how can a woman not think that the same guy having a naked woman all over him would not want to do the same?

 

but see, the only reason that I believe that a man would think that is that they are applying tendencies of male sexuality to a situation involving females. A guy might think "why would you talk to this guy unless you wanted to do him" - the thrill of just BEING in the situation would be lost on the guy. Just as the female perspective would be "why on earth would you want a girl shaking her t*ts in your face unless you were trying to do her" - the thrill of just being in the situation is lost on women. They're both a facade - but in both situations we temporarily buy into it. I'm rambling here but I think you know what I mean.

 

and that's the major flaw that I see in Jersey shortie's logic - it makes complete and total sense FROM A FEMALE PERSPECTIVE - but that female perspective is completely not applicable.

[You'reasian]

I'd be very interested to hear what a lesbian might think of her SO going to a strip club.

 

Interesting point.

 

They might not care about men going to strip clubs or have a well thought out feministic response - but when its their SO, its a different story

[sally4sara]

but see, the only reason that I believe that a man would think that is that they are applying tendencies of male sexuality to a situation involving females. A guy might think "why would you talk to this guy unless you wanted to do him" - the thrill of just BEING in the situation would be lost on the guy. Just as the female perspective would be "why on earth would you want a girl shaking her t*ts in your face unless you were trying to do her" - the thrill of just being in the situation is lost on women. They're both a facade - but in both situations we temporarily buy into it. I'm rambling here but I think you know what I mean.

 

and that's the major flaw that I see in Jersey shortie's logic - it makes complete and total sense FROM A FEMALE PERSPECTIVE - but that female perspective is completely not applicable.

 

Tits in face is not equal to getting a compliment. I get the correlation and I agree with you recognition of how your GF getting a compliment from a stranger can boost her ego, make her feel sexy, and benefit you with the result. It would be like going to a strip club and watching a girl perform a dance.

But lap dances are an entirely different beast and steps well over the line of most people in a relationship's acceptance. Lap dances are like that same cute, complimentary guy brushing out your GF's hair, rubbing in massage oil in and breathing on the back of her neck and nibbling while she is drunk and feeling sexy. Better hope she isn't feeling neglected lately........

 

I think you just nailed exactly what Jersey gets POed about. That guys like to try to convince us lap dances are something they're not and we are only confused because of our irrational female perspective.

[You'reasian]

LOVED that description it was perfect and exactly how I see it.

 

Funny how we are just supposed to tuck our "illfounded insecurities" and "controlling feminst jealousy" away and look the other way, pffft because we are just stupid emotional women who don't "get it".

 

..................And your point?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just teasin'

[sally4sara]

LOVED that description it was perfect and exactly how I see it.

 

Funny how we are just supposed to tuck our "illfounded insecurities" and "controlling feminst jealousy" away and look the other way, pffft because we are just stupid emotional women who don't "get it".

 

Yeah, it sounds like some guys need to stop applying their male perspective to what a compliment from a stranger does for a woman. It certainly never made me get all sticky in my undies!

Now you're a guy and you're sitting by the stage and some girl is dancing for the crowd. Maybe she blows you a kiss. Maybe she dances on your side of the stage the longest or pauses in front of you and not anyone else. THAT is like getting a compliment from a stranger.

 

I've never felt it would be okay for me to get a full contact compliment while I was in a relationship. I'm pretty sure my SOs were in agreement.

[You'reasian]

I think my point was very clear. If you can read English of course.

 

you message write very good

[You'reasian]

IMuauauauauauhahahha!

 

oooh! now that's intense.

[AAlike]

Tits in face is not equal to getting a compliment. I get the correlation and I agree with you recognition of how your GF getting a compliment from a stranger can boost her ego, make her feel sexy, and benefit you with the result. It would be like going to a strip club and watching a girl perform a dance.

But lap dances are an entirely different beast and steps well over the line of most people in a relationship's acceptance. Lap dances are like that same cute, complimentary guy brushing out your GF's hair, rubbing in massage oil in and breathing on the back of her neck and nibbling while she is drunk and feeling sexy. Better hope she isn't feeling neglected lately........

 

OK fair enough, I see where you're going with this. I've never gotten a lapdance and don't anticipate doing so in the near future, so I can't really speak on its effect...but yeah I'd probably consider it outside of what is permissable in my relationship. I've only been to strip clubs in the "spectator" capacity that you described...but yes, I enjoyed looking at the flesh while there.

 

I think you just nailed exactly what Jersey gets POed about. That guys like to try to convince us lap dances are something they're not and we are only confused because of our irrational female perspective.

 

lol - do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

 

I never said anything about female-specific irrationality (love makes us all irrational, this whole forum is evidence of that!), nor I have said that lapdances are "OK" (a completely subjective, case-by-case matter IMO).

 

The notion that I was disputing is that, by enjoying a strip club, or viewing porn, or just getting aroused in a random, everyday situation that a man is essentially sending a message that his GF isn't good enough, or that he NEEDS these external stimuli to stay faithful. I can see how it SEEMS that way to a woman, but I just don't think that it's so.

[flash582]

@AAlike :bunny:

 

FINALLY someone with the emotional and intellectual capacity to carry this conversation out! Where were you 6 pages ago.... when I first asked the question? I think we can finally make some headway here.

 

 

I did note that in you original example. You had the maturity to see what she was saying in a non-threatening way and you took the comment as something that had more to do with her than the implication that she needed to be with someone new.

But to the average guy, his knee jerk reaction would more than likely be "well what the hell are you telling me that for? Just go and do him already!" I have been in that situation and though not in those words I've had very jealous reactions from past men.

 

I think I understand what you are saying about how for some men it is not about the act itself but the thrill attached to the action and what it represents.

 

 

 

I never really thought of it that way, now that you have explained it like that it makes a lot of sense striclty from a non emotional standpoint, meaning if I leave all my emotions out of the equation and just look at the sitaution in a cold pragmatic way I can understand the drive behind it somewhat better now. I do still think that it is a thrill seeking actvity that if done from time to time is toeing the line, and that is where the problem lays for me personally and why I don't think I could be with a man who needs that from time to time.

 

The only hang up I have with with your explanation and it's why I also brought the equivalent example of the platonic outing is that women also feel that sense of needing something to "recharge" if you will. So comparing the two examples of a platonic outing and a man going to a strip club as a means to recharge was really not that far off. In both cases there is supposedly little chance either partner will act on the situation but in both scenarions a person needs to feel blindly lusted after or blindly lusting (for the man)

 

That was awesome AAlike I really enjoyed reading your post!

 

 

For the record I agree that porn and strip joints are a completely different beast. I have 0 problems with porn, I don't find that threatening at all and I think we all need to escape from time to time in whatever realm it may be. The only time it would become a problem is if it got out of hand and our sexlife started to suffer of course.

 

Yeah .... I had an 20 year wife who talked the same story about how she should be the only stimulus in my life ... No strip clubs ..... blah, blah, blah .... but she should have the freedom to have friends both male and female, but I should only have male friends, etc.

 

I was ok with it because I trusted her, loved her, etc ..

 

Turns out she was banging all her "Platonic" friends and just giving me lip service.

 

You have a problem with independent men, IMO ..... and a need to justify your own insecurities.

 

As evidenced by the above example, I have a problem with anyone who chooses to dictate boundaries in a relationship. Boundaries should be agreed upon and the same for both sides.

 

As such, I'll go to a strip club if I damn well feel like it.

[Jersey Shortie]

Am I correct, Jersey, that THIS is really the crux of your issue? it seems to me that your problem is not necessarily porn and/or strip clubs specifically, but the concept that a man getting arousal from "outside sources" is demeaning to his GF due to the fact that it portrays the message that the GF is somehow inadequate or "not enough" for the guy.

 

If that is the case, I think that your problems go way deeper than porn or strip clubs. While I completely understand the logic that brought you to this conclusion, it would seem to me that you have an issue with male sexuality in its entirety. Those girls that watch porn with their men are not resolving to the fact that they are "not enough" - in my opinion those girls have realized that although a set of t*ts may be "interchangeable" (which is in fact true - I love my girl to death but will always enjoy starting at a nice exposed rack - hahaha) to their guy it doesn't mean that THEY are interchangable.

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It’s not that I have an issue with male sexuality. I have an issue with the “it’s about me” foundation and the “boys will be boys” mentality and the overall “greed”. I LOVE how sexual a man can be. Really, it can be a very exciting thing. But there are times when men abuse that kind of power and take advantage of it. If men can’t admit that, I think we will forever be struggling with these things. Men have a lot of power sexually and in relationship, I think more then they realize. And sometimes it seems that men both try to deny having that power and abuse it at the same time. You can do your best with your guy but the end result, the message a lot of men are sending, is that he still needs to seek out other forms of sexual entertainment despite what his girl gives. That’s what being a man is about? Is being a man sitting infront of a computer or tv screen vicariously living through the titillating entertainment day after day after day? Then encouraging your woman to watch it with you as some kind of fake sense of intimacy when porn is about the exact opposite? [/FONT][/sIZE]

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It’s interesting though that you think I have an issue with male sexuality. I don’t think it’s about having an issue with it, but I obviously don’t fully get why men use it as a justification to behave anyway they want. I also think men don’t get women’s sexuality and try to turn women’s sexuality into what they ideally want it to be as men. Porn is all about having sex in a way that men want most. The women are super gorgeous and accommodating but they are having sex like men. Perhaps it is men that have issues with women’s sexuality and don’t want women to be sexual and feminine uniquely but want them to conform to the “ideal fantasy” of what men want women to be? Perhaps that is why so many men LOVE and encourage their women to watch porn with their men and respond to it like they do? You don’t have to sit there while the camera focuses on the man. Most of the time it’s the woman that gets to be focused on. What she offers as a sexual toy. It’s often the man in power. Perhaps it’s men that can’t deal with or understand or enjoy women for their individual sexuality? [/FONT][/sIZE]

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]A lot of women, not all, but enough need to feel special and beautiful by their one guy. If you don’t make her feel those things intrinsically as a woman, she will seek them out else where. Giving your all to a guy and him still needing validation from other women makes you think “why bother?”. He is a sexual vacuum and it gets exhausting. He can’t celebrate who you are but wants to encourage you to have sex in a fashion represented in a fantasy world. He wants to encourage his woman to “watch it with him” and respond like a man to something that is ultimately, a pretty disgraceful and horrific way to treat women. [/FONT][/sIZE]

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I would say that porn is often pretty hateful to women but to men men also. Because it stereotypes them as selfish, women hating brutes that see no good use of a woman but her t&a. Do men like being portrayed like that? In the modern media men complain about all the ways men are portrayed in sitcoms, yet they are okay with how men in porn are portrayed? Is this how men want masculinity expressed and defined? I don’t get it. Maybe men have a deep rooted self loathing for themselves. [/FONT][/sIZE]

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[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]You sort of illustrate a common male state of mind that is frustrating for many women. You said” “[/sIZE][/FONT]I love my girl to death but will always enjoy starting at a nice exposed rack – hahaha”. Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. Boys will be boys. But when do boys turn to men? Liking random boobs doesn’t make you a *man*. The nudge, nudge and wink,wink mentality is selfish and boyish and not in a charming way.

 

You say that it’s the women in porn that are interchangeable, but if you are using porn with your girl or not, she is also interchangeable between all those other more sexually titillating options you can’t deny yourself or turn away from.

 

I understand porn’s lure for boys. But you got to wonder where men’s true priorities are. I don’t see many men making the woman in their life the priority.

[fishtaco]

But doesn't interchangeable means you have the ability to move on? Once a relationship is broken, we hide and nurse our wounds. Once we're ready, we'll move on and find the next boyfriend/girlfriend, and guess what, we can fully enjoy the relationship again, just like the last one.

 

Isn't that interchangeable?

 

Or if our current SO did not exist, in a parallel universe. Would we then just wallow in single-hood for the rest of our lives? No, we would have found someone else to love and love us back.

 

Isn't that interchangeable as well?

 

So not only do I not see the connection between porn/strippers as having anything to do with interchangeable-ness, interchangeable-ness by itself isn't even bad. It simply means you have the capability to move on in case something bad happens to the relationship; i.e. if love is lost, you can find it again, with someone else.

 

Also, there is a big difference between fiction and reality. If I see wolverine jumping around beating on bad guys, I'm not going to put on a costume and go out and fight crime.

 

Porn is fiction. Strippers are fiction. They are simply entertainment.

 

I see this as nothing more than some people (like me) enjoy violence in movies. I love action films, especially with good martial arts action. But I've met people that do not like ANY sort of violence. Not even cartoon violence a la Tom & Jerry. So then the person that doesn't like fictional violence can point fingers at me and say I'm a criminal in the making because I like violent movies? I want to interchange my real life boring desk job to be an assassin working for the mafia?

[Woggle]

What exactly do you consider to be the "dog house"?

 

When she resents the hell out of you and even your breathing can cause her to start a fight. It's when there is no love left in her eyes and even trying to kiss her will make her pull away. This is where the majority of male/female relationships eventually end up.