Empathy for BS?

[Reggie]

I agree completely. After discovery, it is amazing the amount of crap BS's let themselves take.

[bish]

I agree completely. After discovery, it is amazing the amount of crap BS's let themselves take.

 

I know it. I was one of them. Then I stood up and thought, is this the life I want for myself? Life with someone with "cheater" stamped on their forehead?

 

The answer was a resounding, "NO!" Thats when I was done taking that "crap".

[The_411]

Lots of interesting items in this thread.

 

To the poster that brought up NPD and BPD there is a very high correlation between those with BPD and or NPD who have affairs as cluster B personality disorders result from brain damamge which affects impulsivity.

 

At this point it is estimated that 17.7 million Americans suffer from BPD. This is a low end estimate because BPD is often misdiagnosed and many with BPD are not detected or seek treatment because a person's self-preservation is centered on believing there is nothing wrong with them.

 

I would guess at 30 million if not more have BPD.

 

Affairs are actually a drug addiction. Affairs trigger PEAs and dopamine reactions in the brain which makes it so hard for people to stop because they crave the PEAs and dopamine rush.

 

Affairs are a very superficial love and a selfish love. As you can see people in affairs are enamoured with the drug rush and having no responsibility.

 

People seem way too impatient in their relationships and feel like they need that spark. Very little emphasis is placed on building lasting relationships.

 

Certainly the BS and AP have issues but the problem comes down to communciation. Certainly there are many incompatabile couples but a lot of the stuff that is bandied about here about losing the spark or feeling like roommates or not feeling alive has to with one's lack of self love and self development.

 

People do not work hard enough to keep a relationship going and I think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that people in the U.S. do not have to deal with hardships similar to Israel (where the infidelity rate is less than 10%). I think people would value their spouses a lot more if they knew there was a chance they'd be dead the next day.

[pelicanpreacher]

I've not seen international figures, but more people are married in my home country in magistrates courts, than in fancy church weddings. And court weddings don't have those kind of vows.

 

I'm curious, international studies aside, what exchanging verbage would a "state sanctioned" marriage by a court magistrate in your country consist of?

[Dark-N-Romantic]

I admit, I have not read all the threads here. But, the ones that I have read seem to be devoid of the OM/OW showing any empathy for their contribution in hurting the unsuspecting betrayed spouse.

I also see many OP's characterizing the BS or the WS's marriage as involving either an abusive or extremely deficient BS. Yet, the source of information for this characterization is , most times, second hand, coming from the WS, a pesron that has shown a great capacity for dishonesty.

I'm struck bu the naivety(sp?) of OP's that simply accept the information from the Ws as true. I am also struck by the focus merely on the OP's discomfort and turmoil without remorse for having hurt the BS and kids if there are any.

Why is that?

 

Reggie, lets think about our own faults and things we do that are wrong, but yet we do them because we enjoy them... OF COURSE were not going to willingly or fully accept what we are doing what is wrong when we enjoy it. Yes we might realize it and say it, but if we continue doing it, then we really aren't accepting it is wrong.

 

Another thing we have to realize we don't see things realistically to fully acknowledging and correcting our wrong downing when we enjoy them. Yes a person may know they should not be stuffing their face (especially if their health is in danger), but they are so addicted to whatever good feeling they are getting they can't stop. The same is for the other person, like any addict, they can't easily break away from their situation though they should. The would prefer to continue causing pain to others than give up their fix.

 

The other kind are those that just don't give a damn. You know, the narcissistic one's who could careless about social decencies, morality, ethics, or even how other's view them. Like the uncaring thug, rapist, murderer, whore, or what have you who will do what they are doing until the day they die. They don't care what poisonous effect they are spreading, just as long as they are happy, they are willing to let someone else suffer in misery.

 

But in all three cases, this is what I feel, as long there are those who DO care about other people besides themselves, the betrayed spouse will more times than not come out on top and the putrid twosome suffer in the long run (Karma/God's justice is still alive). So, don't worry about if the other person will be honest about their roles in causing pain to the betrayed spouse, do care about those who do understand and who are actively changing their role. And be that voice that listens to the sorrows of a betrayed spouse. My ex-brother-in-law knows I am here for him.

 

 

DNR

[OWoman]

I'm curious, international studies aside, what exchanging verbage would a "state sanctioned" marriage by a court magistrate in your country consist of?

 

Pretty much just the magistrate establishing that both parties have the right to be marrying (above the age of consent, in full control of their faculties, neither currently married to anyone else, not related by blood within the bounds of incest legislation, etc), and then establishing that both parties understood the import of the contract they were entering into (that they were to be married in the eyes of the state and the community; that they'd be bound by the financial agreement - in community of property, or accrual system, or whatever ante-nuptial contract they had signed; that children born during the marriage would be deemed children of the marriage - that kind of thing) and then if both parties agreed, calling for signatures, and asking two witnesses to sign as witnesses.

 

Nothing about monogamy or religion or morality. Just the legal basics. It's a secular state.

[Reggie]

Yes, I agree, Dark etc. One cannot really worry about whether the OM has remorse or empathy. It does nothing to worry about this.

I also agree with the way you characterize their states of mind and their lack of control/concern during the affair. I've seen this first hand with the OM completely bewildered by the lack of acceptance of him by my XWW's family and my kids. It's like his powers of analysis were shut off. The guy is mystified as to why everyone is not welcoming him with open arms. It's dawning on him that he has gotten himself into quite a mess, now. But, he is still somewhat bewildered.

[Mino]

Lots of interesting items in this thread.

 

To the poster that brought up NPD and BPD there is a very high correlation between those with BPD and or NPD who have affairs as cluster B personality disorders result from brain damamge which affects impulsivity.

 

At this point it is estimated that 17.7 million Americans suffer from BPD. This is a low end estimate because BPD is often misdiagnosed and many with BPD are not detected or seek treatment because a person's self-preservation is centered on believing there is nothing wrong with them.

 

I would guess at 30 million if not more have BPD.

 

Affairs are actually a drug addiction. Affairs trigger PEAs and dopamine reactions in the brain which makes it so hard for people to stop because they crave the PEAs and dopamine rush.

 

Affairs are a very superficial love and a selfish love. As you can see people in affairs are enamoured with the drug rush and having no responsibility.

 

People seem way too impatient in their relationships and feel like they need that spark. Very little emphasis is placed on building lasting relationships.

 

Certainly the BS and AP have issues but the problem comes down to communciation. Certainly there are many incompatabile couples but a lot of the stuff that is bandied about here about losing the spark or feeling like roommates or not feeling alive has to with one's lack of self love and self development.

 

People do not work hard enough to keep a relationship going and I think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that people in the U.S. do not have to deal with hardships similar to Israel (where the infidelity rate is less than 10%). I think people would value their spouses a lot more if they knew there was a chance they'd be dead the next day.

This has got to be the most **** i ever read... Now affairs are drug addictions... PLEESSSEEEE.. spare us.

[Reggie]

I agree with the addiction analogy. I've seen my XW(who is pretty irrational to begin with) act even crazier during this affair. She is so self destructive. It's just like an addict in that regard.

I also agree that infidleity is rampant among the disordered and that BPD and NPD are much more prevalent than the stats indicate/

[The_411]

Uhh Mino are you aware of the chemical processes involved with love, lust etc?

 

If so then you wouldn't disagree with me.

 

I'm not spouting off rhetoric, but rather scientific research that has been done.

 

Why do people take drugs? To effect chemicals in the brain.

 

Affairs create chemical processes not present in non-affair relationships.

[Lizzie60]

Uhh Mino are you aware of the chemical processes involved with love, lust etc?

 

If so then you wouldn't disagree with me.

 

I'm not spouting off rhetoric, but rather scientific research that has been done.

 

Why do people take drugs? To effect chemicals in the brain.

 

Affairs create chemical processes not present in non-affair relationships.

 

Then maybe you could post a link or something to back up your statement..

[whichwayisup]

I've read that analogy many times, by various OW, OM, MM and MW too. Each have experienced that withdrawal symptoms...That the A is like a drug.

[GreenEyedLady]

I've read that analogy many times, by various OW, OM, MM and MW too. Each have experienced that withdrawal symptoms...That the A is like a drug.

 

Or that a having a choice is just too damn hard to admit.

[bish]

Uhh Mino are you aware of the chemical processes involved with love, lust etc?

 

If so then you wouldn't disagree with me.

 

I'm not spouting off rhetoric, but rather scientific research that has been done.

 

Why do people take drugs? To effect chemicals in the brain.

 

Affairs create chemical processes not present in non-affair relationships.

 

And its chemically no different from eating large quantities of chocolate.

 

So rather than cheat, just go out and eat 10 frickin' Hershey bars.

[Mino]

Uhh Mino are you aware of the chemical processes involved with love, lust etc?

 

If so then you wouldn't disagree with me.

 

I'm not spouting off rhetoric, but rather scientific research that has been done.

 

Why do people take drugs? To effect chemicals in the brain.

 

Affairs create chemical processes not present in non-affair relationships.

Sure... these chemicals in the brain are realised by people who are falling in love... Affair or no affair... Why are we always looking for a label/excuse...? When two single people fall in love we do not call it an addiction... No, this is just a excuse for the bs to feel better...I am not disagreeing with the chemical proccess of the brain... But we cant apply this for affairs only, and now saying affairs are a drug addiction... gee, maybe we should open a rehab center for all the people in love:rolleyes:

[Mino]

I've read that analogy many times, by various OW, OM, MM and MW too. Each have experienced that withdrawal symptoms...That the A is like a drug.

wwisup, That is saddness, missing the other peron... I had the same "withdrawel feeling for my ex of 11 years after we broke up.... no different feeling. Was so bad from both sides we gave it another go for 18 months, then we finally let the r go... this feeling is not exclusively for only Affairs

[taylor]

The chemical processes of falling in love is no different for affair partners than non-affair partners. Any couple falling in love acts a little crazy/goofy/giddy/consumed.

 

And all love-struck couples who break up go through withdrawal symptoms, some more severe than others. Check out the Breaking Up forum or the Coping forum. Affair partners and non-affair partners describe the same physical and emotional symptoms. How many suffer depression, anxiety, crying spells. How many become withdrawn, lose weight, become obsessed with calling or texting, think they can't live without that other person. How many take months or years to get over the other person.

How many times do you read about guys who stalk former lovers, even kill them, because they can't handle the break-up...they're obsessed. They aren't all in affairs.

 

411, I would love to read the literature that supports your claim that affairs produce chemical processes in the brain unlike those that occur in the brains of those involved in non-affair relationships. I would love to know how the process of "falling in love" differs chemically between affair and non-affair partners. (Just curious. I was a biology major in college.)

 

I think one of the only differences between affair and non-affair partners, with regard to the process of falling in love, is this: affair partners, because of the circumstances, HANG in the "in love" state much longer than non-affair partners because in most cases, the relationship doesn't have an opportunity to move past this stage as do "normal" relationships.

The chemical process of "falling in love" does not fade among affair partners as it does eventually with non-affair partners. But I would venture to say the PROCESS itself is the same.

[Owl]

Read chapter 3 of "The Five Love Languages", and look at the references cited there.

 

There's a great discussion about the "in love" state of a relationship, and how it is often prolonged or exacerbated when that "in love" state is the result of an affair.

 

You're all right...that "addiction" is due to the "in love" state of the relationship. However, that stage of the relationship is often much more intense than in a 'normal' one because of the affair, the emotions and stresses that are created BECAUSE the "in love" phase was initiated by an affair.

 

So the "in love" feelings generated in the beginning of any love relationship are powerful and addictive. BUT...they are often more intense and appear to last longer in affairees...and therefore the ADDICTION is much greater then too.

[Lookingforward]

Well I'm sure if it IS an "addiction" in the true sense, then one day some bright spark will find an antidote....and when one finds themselves in an affair they can just trot off to their local GP for a shot in the butt, and it will be all cured.

 

LF rolls eyes around the floor as she wanders off back to work

[Lookingforward]

In the throes of new love - exactly - regardless of whether that new love is an affair or NOT....

 

IMHO this whole addiction thing is just a transparent ploy to negate any actual FEELINGS the affair partners may have, after all it's 'just an affair' so it can't be REAL can it ?

[Owl]

LOL...well...since the vast majority of affairs are based on a very part time relationship that typically has far fewer stressors on it than a typical marriage on it....you're right...the majority of the time, it ISN'T real.

 

And that applies especially well in cases where the affair relationship is LDR, fed by remote communications like internet/cell phone/email/etc...such as in my wife's case.

 

Pretty simple to see when something is based far more on PERCEPTION than on reality, ya know?

[Lookingforward]

whatever you need to believe to make you feel better......

[Mino]

The chemical processes of falling in love is no different for affair partners than non-affair partners. Any couple falling in love acts a little crazy/goofy/giddy/consumed.

 

And all love-struck couples who break up go through withdrawal symptoms, some more severe than others. Check out the Breaking Up forum or the Coping forum. Affair partners and non-affair partners describe the same physical and emotional symptoms. How many suffer depression, anxiety, crying spells. How many become withdrawn, lose weight, become obsessed with calling or texting, think they can't live without that other person. How many take months or years to get over the other person.

How many times do you read about guys who stalk former lovers, even kill them, because they can't handle the break-up...they're obsessed. They aren't all in affairs.

 

411, I would love to read the literature that supports your claim that affairs produce chemical processes in the brain unlike those that occur in the brains of those involved in non-affair relationships. I would love to know how the process of "falling in love" differs chemically between affair and non-affair partners. (Just curious. I was a biology major in college.)

 

I think one of the only differences between affair and non-affair partners, with regard to the process of falling in love, is this: affair partners, because of the circumstances, HANG in the "in love" state much longer than non-affair partners because in most cases, the relationship doesn't have an opportunity to move past this stage as do "normal" relationships.

The chemical process of "falling in love" does not fade among affair partners as it does eventually with non-affair partners. But I would venture to say the PROCESS itself is the same.

Thank you Taylor!, exactly my point... But I guess its much easier to push it off to a "drug addiction", that way no one has to take responsibility, they just Can't help it, cause now its a "disease" Acholholism is a disease, right? Thats what people claim.... I guess now "love" is too !!!

[Mino]

Well I'm sure if it IS an "addiction" in the true sense, then one day some bright spark will find an antidote....and when one finds themselves in an affair they can just trot off to their local GP for a shot in the butt, and it will be all cured.

 

LF rolls eyes around the floor as she wanders off back to work

LMAO:laugh: A shot in the butt!! Me first!!! I wanna shot in the butt too!

[Mino]

Owl, you took the words out of my mouth.

 

Stolen moments in between the kids' baseball games, dinners with the BS, work, or other familial obligations do NOT a solid full time relationship make. Thus, the "new love" stage drags on and on as the OW/OM in a typical affair never gets all of their MM/MW.

Stolen moments in between? Im sorry... Not all A have just moments....Some do see each other daily and do spend many more day/evening hours together....