Author SingleDad Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 TIY thanks great link and break-up guide - everyone should read this - keep it as a permanent link. I will have to learn by it. Link to post Share on other sites
n9688m Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Seems like I am the only one who wants to try to swim up the Niagara Falls and pray I don't drown. You ae not the only one who wants to save your marriage. But the clear preponderance of evidence here says that (1) The odds of your saving your marriage are almost nil; and (2) To the extent there is a chance of your saving it, you are eliminating that chance by remaining "available" to her as a backup plan. As much as you stand on ceremony about the morality of your not dating, the fact is that there is at least as much chance dating others will bring her back to you as there is a chance it will draw her further away. She just might get scared she will lose you and that might make her come back. Of course odds are the divorce will occur no matter what you do - in which case the sooner you move on (yes, that includes dating) the better it is for you to heal. You have to be happy for your daughter's sake. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 I understand that position. And at some point, I may be ready to accept that ultimate fate and start dating. But I am clearly not ready. My wife just moved out 3 weeks ago (even though the "I'm filing for divorce" words were spoken 6 months ago). If I dated, I would just be doing it for some level of external affection. I would be cheating myself and the other person, and feeling guilty in the process. I am consoling with my neighbor who is also going through a divorce with three young kids and an H who is has had a GF for 2 years, is hiding business assets, stopped taking an income and thus not paying child suppport, and doesn't really care for his kids - takes them to his parents to watch when it is his turn. Makes my situation more bearable... I am doing the right thing by my daughter (and my STBXW for that matter). I hope they both truly see some day, that I am a rightous and honorable man. Link to post Share on other sites
TrustInYourself Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 One thing about us. We never let anything get in the way of being good parents. That's not always the case. I'm a bad ass father. No one will ever take that from me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 Damn Straight !!! That is the best thing to do... The only thing about the situation you can control - Be teh best father you can be !!! Link to post Share on other sites
n9688m Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 But I am clearly not ready. My wife just moved out 3 weeks ago (even though the "I'm filing for divorce" words were spoken 6 months ago). I can certainly understand and support that if indeed you are just not ready, i.e. if you still wouldn't date even if the divorce were final today. To me that's the key question to ask yourself - would you be dating right now if the divorce were final? I have started dating even though things are considerably newer than your case, i.e. we started this process 3 months ago, I filed for divorce 6 weeks ago, and she is still living in the marital home while she prepares a house suitable for partial custody for our kids. But I suspect the key issue is infidelity -that has made the ultimate outcome final in my mind and thus my emotional disconnection from her is firm. It sounds as if there is also an OM in your case but you have not yet confirmed it; that's why in another post I suggested to you that confirmation of the OM would likely accelerate the inevitable outcome in your case and encourage you to move on. I am consoling with my neighbor who is also going through a divorce with three young kids Have you considered asking her out on a date? Why not? I hope they both truly see some day, that I am a rightous and honorable man. There may be many reasons why you are righteous and honorable, but waiting to start dating is not one of them. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 We had dinner and then a movie in my home theater. I would not call it a date - we both have been through a rough time and didn't want to be alone - just companions who need to talk through their horrible situations. It would be way way to complicated. Her STBXW does not financially support or irradically supports her 3 kindergarden age kids. He will keep their house that is my immediate neighbor. Could you see that ? She with her 3 kids at my house with her ExH next door with his GF and her child ? That's like having your hand on the trigger... Link to post Share on other sites
n9688m Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 We had dinner and then a movie in my home theater. OK - congrats! You really have started dating - you just have not called it as such. You sure wouldn't have done that when you were married, right? Have fun. It would be way way to complicated. I didn't say you should marry her - just date her. Yes, even get romantically involved. Have fun. See what happens. Enjoy. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 20, 2008 Author Share Posted July 20, 2008 Called STBXW last night to say goodnight to daughter. Only got voicemail. Got voicemail today that her phone was on vibrate and didn't get the call... I though her message said that I could "see" my daughter. I called again without her answering. I drove over to her house. In front of her house, my cell rings. STBXW was screaming at me... invasion of privacy, should have never told me where she lived, never invite me over, can't see my daughter, stop stalking her, etc etc... The devil came out of her. I was devestated and in tears and drove away. I continued to say I was sorry, I thought she invited me over, truly !!! How can someone I though I knew have changed to much ??? I have never seen a person's mind so twisted and hateful as hers is through this divorce process ??? Psychotic !!! I can't explain it any other way... Can anyone answer this ? How long will she have such spite and hatred for me ?? I almost wish I had done something truly wrong so I can feel guilt - but I didn't - I am just in anguish over what has become of my life, my daughter's life and the devil who took over my STBXW's soul. Link to post Share on other sites
TrustInYourself Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Called STBXW last night to say goodnight to daughter. Only got voicemail. Got voicemail today that her phone was on vibrate and didn't get the call... I though her message said that I could "see" my daughter. I called again without her answering. I drove over to her house. In front of her house, my cell rings. STBXW was screaming at me... invasion of privacy, should have never told me where she lived, never invite me over, can't see my daughter, stop stalking her, etc etc... The devil came out of her. I was devestated and in tears and drove away. I continued to say I was sorry, I thought she invited me over, truly !!! How can someone I though I knew have changed to much ??? I have never seen a person's mind so twisted and hateful as hers is through this divorce process ??? Psychotic !!! I can't explain it any other way... Can anyone answer this ? How long will she have such spite and hatred for me ?? I almost wish I had done something truly wrong so I can feel guilt - but I didn't - I am just in anguish over what has become of my life, my daughter's life and the devil who took over my STBXW's soul. It wasn't an emergency, right? You have to consider your mindset is to be with your wife and daughter and you're going to "see" and "hear" things that are conducive to those ends. Your wife wants absolute space and time. Who knows why. We can speculate, sure. It's probably reasonable to assume she was with another man. Speculating is not going to solve the problem. The point is, you "invaded her space" under the premise that she said to come over. This was not the case. Now it's just a matter of perspective, yours and hers. Arguing over it is futile. It's just a matter of being right, or being understanding. Put your emotions on timeout. For most people, this is completely unacceptable and impossible. It's not. It's a simple matter of refocusing that energy and emotion into your own well-being. It's a step back, but not the end of the world. Link to post Share on other sites
n9688m Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 STBXW was screaming at me... invasion of privacy, should have never told me where she lived, never invite me over, can't see my daughter, stop stalking her, etc etc... The devil came out of her. I was devestated and in tears and drove away. I continued to say I was sorry, I thought she invited me over, truly !!! Clearly the OM was at her house. As I said before, this is good news. It will let you move on and acknowledge the inevitable. Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 What part of "Stay away from her place" didn't you get??? Three days ago, I told you she'd brand you a "stalker" if she caught you around, and sure enough, you went on over anyway. You know, SingleDad... I'm not trying to be mean, because really... I don't know you and I've got no investment in your outcome. But, I'm kind of starting to see this woman's point a little bit. YOU DON'T LISTEN. I'm in a recovered marriage today, because I learned (and fast), that the Good Lord gave me one mouth but TWO ears... and he did it for a reason. My marriage was in trouble because I wasn't listening. I was mired in my own POV and it drove my spouse AWAY from me. It causes emotional distancing which left him seeking a new emotional bond outside the marriage. Now. I'm speaking plainly to you, because in all honesty... I think you need the 'wake up call'. You did NOT have a specific invitation to go over to your STBX's new home, and you know it. A garbled phone message isn't an invite. I'm not saying you're not sincere in what you thought you heard, but what I AM saying is that you definitely gave yourself permission to commit an unwise action on the flimsiest of excuses. You've made no bones about the fact that your goal is a return to the marriage. But... the point you're missing is that RIGHT NOW, she's adamant about divorce. The ONLY way to change that dynamic is for her to see you as a preferred potential life-mate, and she's not going to do that if she thinks you're stalking and pushing, instead of listening. How can someone I though I knew have changed to much ??? I have never seen a person's mind so twisted and hateful as hers is through this divorce process ??? Psychotic !!! I can't explain it any other way... She can do that because she's a WS, a wayward spouse. In alot of ways, it's kind of like they have a split personality. One is the person you once knew, who you still catch occasional tantalizing glimpses of. The other is somebody whose chiefest goal in life is to get away from their abandoned former life and partner. Anything that threatens that goal provokes ire in the WS. I don't know if she's got another man or not. From her POV though, she's "separated" and can do as she likes. You and I might not agree with it... but for all intents and purposes... perception is truth. In her mind, she's free to do as she please and you're stalking her. That perception is NOT compatible with getting her to see you as a preferred life partner. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 20, 2008 Author Share Posted July 20, 2008 I made a mistake. I wanted something so badly, it distorted what I heard. Take three steps back, go to jail, until the next round... Damn it !!! I can't stand this !!! Link to post Share on other sites
TrustInYourself Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I made a mistake. I wanted something so badly, it distorted what I heard. Take three steps back, go to jail, until the next round... Damn it !!! I can't stand this !!! It's nothing, lol. Regroup. Send her a card with an apology. Nothing romantic. All business. Link to post Share on other sites
Ladyjane14 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Agreed with TIY. Email her an apology, tell her you misunderstood. It's unlikely that she'll believe you, so you can expect more venom. Your best bet to just take it with as much good grace as you can muster, and to keep the exchange as short as you can. I like TIY's post #120 on his thread. It's worth reading twice. He's right. His estranged wife might not come back. But damn if she's not got a little more to think about as she observes a man who's confident and emotionally appealing. Link to post Share on other sites
TrustInYourself Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Agreed with TIY. Email her an apology, tell her you misunderstood. It's unlikely that she'll believe you, so you can expect more venom. Your best bet to just take it with as much good grace as you can muster, and to keep the exchange as short as you can. I like TIY's post #120 on his thread. It's worth reading twice. He's right. His estranged wife might not come back. But damn if she's not got a little more to think about as she observes a man who's confident and emotionally appealing. Thanks for the referrals. I start charging when I get private messages. Haha! Also, there's ways around her venom. Sure, you made an emotional decision, but that's understandable. I wouldn't even venture down that avenue right now, unless she demands an explanation. The point is, you recognize that you shouldn't have done it and you validated her reasons for withholding her address from you. You broke her trust. That's the fundamental basis for the demon/witch/other personality of pure anger showing it's ugly head. It's all good, we make mistakes. Recover and move on. Link to post Share on other sites
sharebear823 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Hi, Single Dad: I just wanted to add a little of my own experience in here, which is: For the first year after my husband left, he wanted absolutely nothing at all to do with me. I was constantly calling him and demanding to know why he left, which he could never tell me to my satisfaction. I would always say I didn't understand and his explanations made no sense, and he would always say, "That's because you don't want to accept it." I kept begging him to come back, crying, falling apart all the time...nothing ever made one bit of difference at all. Then, after about a year of this, I decided to "take the plunge" and date someone else. I felt completely out of my element, like I was doing something that was alien to my species as a "married woman with three children." Still, I felt I had no choice. My own husband was telling me to try to find happiness with someone else. Well, I don't know if it was the dating, or if it was the shift in my mindset that preceded the dating, that made a difference for my husband, but something changed in him when he saw that I was making an effort to rebuild my life, and that is when he decided maybe there was something still worth saving for us, and he agreed to marriage counseling after all that time. Well, it ended up being a "bad timing" thing for us, because at that point I had made the decision to "move on" from him, and I wasn't any longer so desperate to save our marriage. I wanted much more from him than just to come back to the marriage. At that point, I felt I needed reassurances that he also had changed. The last thing I wanted was for him to come back, and then to face the exact same thing a few years down the road. At that time, though, he was not willing to continue the therapy after he had his own assurances that I had sufficiently changed for him, so even though he really wanted to come back into the marital home, I would not allow it. (I don't know to this day if that was a mistake, but I just wanted to let you know what happened to me in case it might help you.) I realize that my situation is totally different from yours, but some aspects seem to me to be similar, including the devastation and wanting to return to the old relationship. One important thing I've learned from my experience is that you cannot ever go back to what you once had with your wife. The past is gone and it cannot be rekindled. If you are to ever have another chance with your wife, it will have to be a brand new relationship, because the old one is gone, never to return. In some ways, that's a good thing, as there clearly were problems that prevented it from being a viable relationship. Therefore, rebuilding from scratch is the only option. Therefore (and this probably will be hard to wrap your mind around) dating other women is no longer any different than dating your wife, because the relationship that you will have to build with her is an entirely NEW relationship, since you cannot ever get the old relationship back again, because that relationship died when your wife left your marriage. I hope this makes some sense to you. It is what I have been thinking I need to do if I am going to save my own marriage...treat it as an entirely new relationship that we are starting over from scratch. It's a very weird concept, given that I have three kids with this man and I feel I know him like the back of my hand. Yet, in some ways, he is like a total stranger to me and I need to get to know him all over again. I don't know if this will help you, and given my current situation, I'm probably not in any position to be giving you advice, but just my own two cents and I hope it helps a little bit. I do feel for you and feel we are in similar "boats." Take care. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Thanks for sharing bear... Yeah - I do not know how long I can put up with the devil. I do not know how long I can remain lonely. I do not know if I can maintain hope any longer. She is not the woman I married. What the hell happened ? LC today was limited to scheduling vacation days for each of us with our daughter... Can't stand these long periods without seeing daughter. So I scheduled vacation days for 3 Friday's that I do not have daughter for that weekend. Ex is taking full last week of August. Married neighbor (going through divorce) who's BF is moving back to Texas this week. We have been on the phone everynight consoling each other about our twisted spouses and what they are putting us through... Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 SD, LJ is right on the money as always. I do think that your wife is involved with someone else. I think she's deathly afraid you're going to find out, and make it public knowledge and use it against her. That's the REAL reason behind her screaming demands of privacy and such. With that said, you need to start working the "plans" as I'd mentioned before. LJ hit it on...you're NOT going to "win her back" by what you're doing right now. You need to start demonstrating to her that you're WORTH KEEPING. I also still suggest you find out what's really going on...but that's only one part of that plan...and your opportunities are limited right now, so you need to focus on implementing what you CAN do. Seriously...all of this flying around without a gameplan is going destroy any chances you have at recovering this marriage. You're your own worst enemy right now. Settle down...calm down...and plan on winning the WAR, instead of focusing on meaningless little battles. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 My e-mail to STBXW today: My apologies for coming to your house on Sunday. I truly thought your message said I could come over to "see" my daughter - I guess it was just my wishful thinking that had me mishear the message. I didn't mean to affect you emotionally... I never did Her reply Apology accepted. Let's just try to respect each another's space and be civil on the phone. I will continue to drop Brooke off until I have a comfort level Also, just for the record another reason I wanted to keep the clothes separate is because I want to sell them at a consignment shop so that I can get more clothes for her. In addition I have other mother's I know willing to trade clothes for toys, etc. I understand what you ssaid, I just wich I could manage the clothes I have. It is for her benefit Well - Seems like we may be able to try to start the civil LC again... What bothers me is STBXW focus is limited to our daughter's daily clothes, sleeping, food, etc. Her focus is on daughter dressing well and painting her nails... Never a thought about the longer term issues. It will take me so long to get used to 3 days a week with my daughter... It is nice that I can see daughter on a webcam at daycare, she just started her midday nap. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 So...from here...what changes are you going to make to improve your odds of recovering your marriage? You've said you have "His Needs/Her Needs"...have you attempted to identify your wife's most critical emotional needs and tried to come up with ways to meet them while you're seperated? Have you identifed changes you can make in yourself for the better? (both as a spouse and as a person) Have you tried to get to the bottom of the reasons why your wife is acting the way she is? (affair, personal issues, etc...) Link to post Share on other sites
TrustInYourself Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 My e-mail to STBXW today: My apologies for coming to your house on Sunday. I truly thought your message said I could come over to "see" my daughter - I guess it was just my wishful thinking that had me mishear the message. I didn't mean to affect you emotionally... I never did Her reply Apology accepted. Let's just try to respect each another's space and be civil on the phone. I will continue to drop Brooke off until I have a comfort level Also, just for the record another reason I wanted to keep the clothes separate is because I want to sell them at a consignment shop so that I can get more clothes for her. In addition I have other mother's I know willing to trade clothes for toys, etc. I understand what you ssaid, I just wich I could manage the clothes I have. It is for her benefit Well - Seems like we may be able to try to start the civil LC again... What bothers me is STBXW focus is limited to our daughter's daily clothes, sleeping, food, etc. Her focus is on daughter dressing well and painting her nails... Never a thought about the longer term issues. It will take me so long to get used to 3 days a week with my daughter... It is nice that I can see daughter on a webcam at daycare, she just started her midday nap. I hope you feel a little better today. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Reading "His Needs, Her Needs"...just into the first chapter so I haven't had the chance to apply them. Also just bought "the 5 love languages" for next read. For her - LC, giving her the space she wants, being civil with her... I will try to work at being friends and avoid argument at any cost... It will take a long time for her heart to soften toward me. Don't truly know the root cause ot it... Is it an affair, or just need for freedom and space. I know I wasn't giving her the love and affection she desires (but were her expectations realistic ? should she expect my love and acffection when she didn't show it to me ?)... She had said she needs space to rebuild herself - and will never let someone treat her like that ever again (yet She wasn't treating me the way she wants to be treated) Mostly trying to learn to adjust my own lifestyle to learn to live single again and enjoy being by myself (that's hard) and being the best father I can be to my daughter. I have the longing to be loved and desire to date - but I'm not ready. Commesurating(sp?) with my neighbor with her plight - don't expect or want it to lead to anything - but it's nice to have someone to vent with. (besides venting with you all on this forum). I have no real strategy with STBXW... just to try to be friendly, not argue, and hope she will in the next month or two agree to go to dinner or a festival with daughter and me... I am trying to learn how to stand before I can take my first step. Link to post Share on other sites
Author SingleDad Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 I feel better than Yesterday - anguish is now loneliness. As I was typing - Ex just called me again to ask me to put her on my AAA auto service... Even throughout the last 5 months of her putting me through anguish, her 2-3 calls to me each day had me feeling needed and that she was dependent upon me (even if it was to complaing to me); though wanting her independence Believe it or not, I guess I prefer to have her call wanting something (makes me feel closer and needed and have a chance) then no C, her hating me and me feeling alone. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I know this is going to seem like conflicting advice...but... It doesn't make sense to me that she be listed on ANYTHING that costs you money out of your pocket or that she could run up a massive bill on if she wants to be seperated from you. Its one thing if you decide to go over and jump her car, or help her out in a crisis. Its ANOTHER if she expects you to support her monetarily while she's "seperated" from you. Make sense? If she wants to be "seperated"...that should mean that she wants to see what single life is like...that means covering her own expenses/costs/etc...WITHOUT you. What, EXACTLY, is she expecting to learn from this seperation if she's still RELYING on you for things like this? If you save her cookies on something...that's a credit in the lovebank. If you're paying her bills while she's using her new place to continue an affair...that's enabling her. LJ may have some better advice for you on this...but from my POV, I don't know that I'd want to give her any further opportunity to endanger my credit or run up bills that I would be forced to pay later. Link to post Share on other sites
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