Why did Jesus die for our sins?

[HotCaliGirl]

I have heard it said that everyone has a God shaped hole in their heart that they are trying to fill. Some fill it with things other than God hoping that it will be enough but it never seems to satisfy. It seems to me that you want to fill this hole HotCaliGirl which is why you keep questioning Gods law of order. I hope this makes some sense to you. I am writing this late at night so it may not make sense to me come morning but hey I'm trying Hope I didn't offend. Good thread here.

 

Gunner

Hey Gunner, thanks for responding...well it's slightly past 4am after a light night and drinks so you're not the only one concerned about making sense...however I still have the same questions. You are praising God's ways as higher than ours, and clear cut as in how you put it there's not "slightly pregnant' so eigher a right/wrong worrld, however I don't seem to see things that straightforwardly unfortunately. I am struggling with the thougth God would die for the sins of evil people yet have no hesitation to send perfectly kind people who don't sin, to hell to burn forever if they naturally doubt his existence. I find that evil...nobody seems to elaborate or explain that. Why did Jesus die to save evil people yet doesn't care about burning and torturing kind people who naturally have logical doubts?

[HotCaliGirl]

"You gave Me no kiss but she since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss My feet. "You did not anoint My head with oil but she anointed My feet with perfume. For this reason I say to you, her sins which are many, have been forgiven for she loved much but he who is forgiven little loves little.

 

I think this is the reason that people who are in prison for some heinous crime that come to truly know Jesus are sincere. They know how much they have been forgiven. I do not think that this should exempt them from their full earthly punishment though. Jesus said render unto Caesar(man) what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's.

 

Sorry for the long post but I think it was pertinent to the discussion. I hope I helped in some small way.

 

Gunner

Gunner, I read that story, but it still doesn't answer any of my questions....it says Jesus forgives the lady the most for sinning the most, and again I have trouble with that. Should I commit a huge sin so that he may forgive me "the most"? What if I don't sin, am a good hearted person but am sincerely and naturally struggling with my belief...that means as soon as I die jesus has no problem sending me to burn for eternity...again I seem to have a problem understanding this concept as loving, since Christianity is supposed to be loving and I find that to be the most evil act I know of... please help...

[lindya]

Gunner, I read that story, but it still doesn't answer any of my questions....it says Jesus forgives the lady the most for sinning the most, and again I have trouble with that. Should I commit a huge sin so that he may forgive me "the most"? What if I don't sin, am a good hearted person but am sincerely and naturally struggling with my belief...that means as soon as I die jesus has no problem sending me to burn for eternity...again I seem to have a problem understanding this concept as loving, since Christianity is supposed to be loving and I find that to be the most evil act I know of... please help...

 

Exactly. That story implies that the more a person sins, the more Jesus will apparently have a bit of a soft spot for them. A bit like the delinquent pupil who can be as abusive as he likes to all the other teachers, because he always manages to charm the pants off the head-teacher and therefore continually escape expulsion.

 

No wonder people turn off from religion. Most of us would like to think that a higher power has a bit more sense than some woolly-minded, hypocrite who has a bottomless pit of love for his fellow man - whatever crimes that man may have committed against others - until his own house gets broken into and trashed.

[HotCaliGirl]

Exactly Lindya, I feel like you understand where I'm coming from...

[lindya]

Exactly Lindya, I feel like you understand where I'm coming from...

 

It comes down to the idealist-v-guardian, abstract thinkers-v-concrete thinkers debate. Fundamentalists tend to be concrete-thinking guardians....which is why I find it so ironic that they should consider themselves to be experts in matters relating to spirituality.

[d'Arthez]

It comes down to the idealist-v-guardian, abstract thinkers-v-concrete thinkers debate. Fundamentalists tend to be concrete-thinking guardians....which is why I find it so ironic that they should consider themselves to be experts in matters relating to spirituality.

Perhaps it is even a step further: you could define the fundamentalist through the concrete thinking guardian concept. Not just religious, but also political, or whatever area of endeavour. For example, the office fundamentalist.

[lindya]

Perhaps it is even a step further: you could define the fundamentalist through the concrete thinking guardian concept. Not just religious' date=' but also political, or whatever area of endeavour. For example, the office fundamentalist.[/quote']

 

I already do

[Gunner]

Gunner, I read that story, but it still doesn't answer any of my questions....it says Jesus forgives the lady the most for sinning the most, and again I have trouble with that. Should I commit a huge sin so that he may forgive me "the most"? What if I don't sin, am a good hearted person but am sincerely and naturally struggling with my belief...that means as soon as I die jesus has no problem sending me to burn for eternity...again I seem to have a problem understanding this concept as loving, since Christianity is supposed to be loving and I find that to be the most evil act I know of... please help...

 

I think you are missing the point of the story. God loves all people the same and I think the story is illustrating the attitude of the forgiven sinner. The person who is forgiven much, when converted loves much, the person with not as much debt forgiven is a little more blaise about it. At least that is what I got out of it.

 

One thing I always wondered about is what happens to the people that die and have never heard of Christ? I was told that those people would be judged on works but once a person hears that Jesus died for them they become accountable for either accepting or rejecting that message. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this.

[lindya]

The person who is forgiven much, when converted loves much, the person with not as much debt forgiven is a little more blaise about it. At least that is what I got out of it.

 

 

It would be interesting to tie this thread up with one of those "why nice guys finish last" threads. Maybe the women who get stuck in bad relationships, utterly convinced that with unconditional love they can "transform" the man who is treating them so badly, should have taken their Sunday School lessons a tad less seriously.

[HotCaliGirl]

One thing I always wondered about is what happens to the people that die and have never heard of Christ? I was told that those people would be judged on works but once a person hears that Jesus died for them they become accountable for either accepting or rejecting that message. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this.

A lot of people have their religious beliefs engrained in them from early childhood. In imany countries it's not as common as in the US to get solicited by people trying to talk you into converting to their faith, each arguing theirs is the right one.

 

Many people don't hear them out, are not in contact with converters or else if some guy comes up to you trying to preach a religion that's not yours, how seriously are you going to take him? But their religion is supposed to be the right one and due to the messenger/converter''s fault of not being convincing, they will burn in hell after they die? What is the punishment for the converter to not succeed in his job?

 

How could he sleep at night knowing that of the thousands he comes into comtact trying to convert, maybe he succeeds in sounding convincing enough to one person who was already considering converting, so because he didn't do a good job with his salesmanship, all the others who could be nice people are going to burn because of his failure to convert them. I think it would be more his fault than the innocent people that have their own beliefs they are happy with.

 

And the billions of people who live never even knowing what Christianity is, accordingly to your beliefs they too are going to burn in hell when they die. If someone preached such a scary and unloving religion to me, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it, let alone embrace it, especially when a scare tactic is used that if you don't God will have you burn and tortured for eternity...when most people's view of God is a loving, gnetle, understanding entity towards people of ALL faiths...they'd think you were talking about devil-worship or something.

[Moose]

What is the punishment for the converter to not succeed in his job?

The angels rejoice everytime a soul is saved. So if a person, through their works lead only one soul to the Lord, they've accomplished God's plan, and aren't in line for a punishment.

 

I personally think it's impossible for one who allows the Holy Spirit take full control of their life to NOT lead several to Christ. They're like magnets, or gravity.....you're drawn to them, wonder what it is they have that you don't.......

How could he sleep at night knowing that of the thousands he comes into comtact trying to convert, maybe he succeeds in one, so because he didn't do a good job with his salesmanship, all the others are going to burn because of him.

If this person is preaching the Gospel in Truth, and using sound doctrine, he's not liable for those who reject the word.

 

BUT, those who purposely preach the Gospel for their own gain, not using sound doctrine, but twists the word....now they.....they will pay......

And the billions of people who live never even knowing what Christianity is, accordingly to your beliefs they too are going to burn in hell when they die.

Not so. I don't know who told you that, but this simply isn't true. How can God hold you accountable for something you're simply ignorant of?

 

Think of all the mute, mentally challenged, and children out there that can't comprehend the saving grace of God?????

[Admiral Thrawn]

I personally think it's impossible for one who allows the Holy Spirit take full control of their life to NOT lead several to Christ. They're like magnets, or gravity.....you're drawn to them, wonder what it is they have that you don't.......If this person is preaching the Gospel in Truth, and using sound doctrine, he's not liable for those who reject the word.

 

So, I guess if that is not happening then one is backslidden?

 

BUT, those who purposely preach the Gospel for their own gain, not using sound doctrine, but twists the word....now they.....they will pay......Not so. I don't know who told you that, but this simply isn't true. How can God hold you accountable for something you're simply ignorant of?

 

Ignorance is no excuse in a court of law. You cant say to a judge, gee, I didn't know speeding was illegal in this county, can you let me off the hook?

 

That is why, if people do not reach the people who are not saved, or doing everything in their best efforts to reach them, then they are all going to hell. HotCaliGirl is right, with exception of children, anyone who doesn't have an opportunity to hear the Gospel is either going to hell, or very likely to go to hell if there is any ambiguity.

 

Moose, you cant show any verse in the Bible that will show anyone, who doesn't believe Jesus Christ, is going to make it, can you?

 

Think of all the mute, mentally challenged, and children out there that can't comprehend the saving grace of God?????

 

Mute people can hear, therefore, they can receive God. Mentally challenged people, who specifically have no moral judgement and children are protected as Jesus is shown to love little children when His disciples asked who was the greatest, so they are protected too. People who never heard the Gospel may be out of luck though, I dont know how that is going to work theologically.

[penkitten]

hotcaligirl, i think it is very normal for someone to question things, because it helps them find what ground they want to hold when it comes to religion.

 

no one is perfect, and god is always working on us all.

even if you accept god into your heart, you will always have more to learn, and more to pray about.

 

now cali you are full of questions, needing answers. i promise i have been there and may have more questions one day too.

a good book for you to read during this time, that you can relate to is called "a return to love , reflections on the principles of a course in miracles", by marianne williamson.

the writer wrote this book to explain what she got out of the course of miracles, which is a course that took her i think 7 years and it explained in great detail exactly what the bible was suppose to mean.

if you are like me, you dont have 7 years to do this course, so try her book.

mariane taught me so much that i couldnt have gotten on my own.

for instance, "what is god?" and then we learn the answer " god is love"

you learn " love is real and can not be destroyed. anything that is not love is not real. remember this and you will be at peace."

"nothing you do or think or wish or make is necssary to establish your worth."

"enlightenment is a recognition not a change at all."

"there is no problem in any situation that faith will not solve."

"faithfullness is not lack of faith but faith in nothing."

"you will never lose your way for god leads you."

"forgiveness takes away what stands between your brother and yourself."

"heaven is a decision that you must make."

 

i hope this helped, however the book is so much better at explaining things than i am.

[Admiral Thrawn]

A lot of people have their religious beliefs engrained in them from early childhood. In imany countries it's not as common as in the US to get solicited by people trying to talk you into converting to their faith, each arguing theirs is the right one.

 

And allot of people are also searching for the truth and finding it too.

 

Many people don't hear them out, are not in contact with converters or else if some guy comes up to you trying to preach a religion that's not yours, how seriously are you going to take him?

 

Very seriously. If you are hungry for the truth, and someone's telling you the truth you then you will eat it. In fact, many Missionaries say that people in Third World countries and even places the Gospel is not predominant ARE VERY, VERY, VERY hungry for the truth. You may as well be sending bread to starving people on the brink of dying when you are sharing the Gospel in these areas because it is like the same thing.

 

The problem in America, being as materialistic as it is, less people are hungry and interested in the things of God, and showing the same interest in God, as in these other countries. So, the need is very strong.

 

IF you are talking about places such as Saudi Arabia, or another Arabic country where Islam is the predominant religion or Hinduism in India, you will notice that the military plays a predominant role there in rejecting the spread of the Gospel, and normal everyday people under these reguimes would like to hear the Gospel. People will die to get a chance to hear the Gospel in other parts of the world - because that is what life is all about.

 

 

But their religion is supposed to be the right one and due to the messenger/converter''s fault of not being convincing, they will burn in hell after they die? What is the punishment for the converter to not succeed in his job?

 

They know in their heart what is the right religion. The messanger does not convert people, the Holy Spirit makes Jesus real, and makes the person able to accept Jesus as presented in the message.

 

If a converter is doing his job, as you call it, then according to the Bible, they are fine. If the converter does didly squat, when they are supposed to, then for every soul that goes to hell, is blood that will be on his/her shoulders on judgement day.

 

Proverbs 24:11 "If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;

 

12: If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? And he that keepeth thy soul, doeth he not know it? And shall not he render to every man according to his works?"

 

In other words, all Christians should get the heck of their butts and do everything within their power to ensure that everyone is saved, or else, they wont have a sad judgement day (although they will not go to hell - they will suffer some sort of eternal regret).

 

As Moose said, a born-again Christian will naturally win souls. A backslidden Christian has lost a passion for the things of God, and probably wouldn't care, or have a track-record of winning souls.

 

How could he sleep at night knowing that of the thousands he comes into comtact trying to convert, maybe he succeeds in sounding convincing enough to one person who was already considering converting, so because he didn't do a good job with his salesmanship, all the others who could be nice people are going to burn because of his failure to convert them. I think it would be more his fault than the innocent people that have their own beliefs they are happy with.

 

It is not up to a converter to convert, it is up to the Holy Spirit dealing with someone who is hearing the message. This is the power of God we are talking about, not some abstract message of man's wisdom. POWER. Power of God to convict people of their sins, to repent and accept Christ.

 

And the billions of people who live never even knowing what Christianity is, accordingly to your beliefs they too are going to burn in hell when they die. If someone preached such a scary and unloving religion to me, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it, let alone embrace it, especially when a scare tactic is used that if you don't God will have you burn and tortured for eternity...when most people's view of God is a loving, gnetle, understanding entity towards people of ALL faiths...they'd think you were talking about devil-worship or something.

 

No. The fact is we are in a middle of a bloody spiritual war, and nothing is fair or just in a war, one side has to win, and the other side has to lose. One one hand you have the devil, who wants everybody to go to hell with him, on the other hand you have Jesus Christ, who wants everyone to go to heaven.

 

What does the devil have to win the war -- he has powers of distractions, and sin. Money, lust, fame, wealth, idols, false religions, UFO's, cults, -- ANYTHING THAT WILL KEEP YOUR EYES OF CHRIST -- that is its ONE MISSION -- to keep everyone away from who defeated it 2000 years ago, and who kicked its butt on Calvary --

 

The War itself is unfair, and is something that the Kingdom of Christ, is fighting against the Kingdom of Darkness, where the devil is the god of this world system, and we have a renegade tyrant that is controlling things as you are saying. So Unite and Fight -- people are dying and going to hell in this war. Arm with the word of God and prayer and fight.

[penkitten]

 

 

Ignorance is no excuse in a court of law. You cant say to a judge, gee, I didn't know speeding was illegal in this county, can you let me off the hook?

 

That is why, if people do not reach the people who are not saved, or doing everything in their best efforts to reach them, then they are all going to hell. HotCaliGirl is right, with exception of children, anyone who doesn't have an opportunity to hear the Gospel is either going to hell, or very likely to go to hell if there is any ambiguity.

 

Moose, you cant show any verse in the Bible that will show anyone, who doesn't believe Jesus Christ, is going to make it, can you?

 

here you go,

Ezekiel 3

16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

 

 

as far as babies and young children dying and going to heaven without knowing god, well they were born of sin, whether they committed it or not but let's be dogmatic and just say that god does the right thing. same goes with mentally challenged people. knowing the love , grace and mercy of god.

 

instead of debating what will happen to these people, we should be spreading the word, so they can hear of him.

[Admiral Thrawn]

How is every single human being in this planet going to be able to hear the Gospel - AS SOON AS POSSIBLE -- how are we going to coordinate this?

 

Is this a focus on places that do not have access to TV or Radio? Doesn't everyone in North America have access to the Gospel if they want to listen to it. Are we supposed to go haywire and warning everyone we come across about hell and how to avoid it? I'm panicing now, what are we supposed to do? Need to hear response from Christians here. We need a battle plan.

 

Ok, send three tracts out a day and pray for lost souls? What should we do?

Do we have to save the world, just one person, or as many as we can humanly reach? Suppose people dont understand what we are talking about?

Should all born-again Christians be Baptised in the Holy Spirit first, with the evidence of speaking in tongues before fully engaging?

[penkitten]

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/secdchn.html

 

So is there a second chance for little children? Will they be saved or lost? What about the heathen of the world? And what about old Uncle John? You know the good old boy who would never do anyone any harm. He was always good to little children, kind to stray dogs, generous to people in need, but he just never got around to going to church.

 

How many mothers have lain awake nights agonizing, weeping over the fate of a son who died "unsaved"?

What would it be worth to you to know that when you have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and the time for the second resurrection has come, that you could make your way out to the old graveyard where your grandfather, your mother, your son, your sister, or your brother, is buried? Would you like to sit yourself down on a nearby tombstone and wait for the exact moment when that loved one will rise from the grave, and be the first face they see when they live again? Who do you know who would be better suited to sit them down, explain the mysteries of life, death, and the resurrection, to teach them about the true God, to start them out on a new life free from the influences of Satan the devil? Who do you know who would take better care of them, look better after their interests, want more than anyone to bless them? Who would be more likely to extend mercy to your loved ones? Wouldn’t you want that job yourself?

As Paul put it,

 

"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Romans 11:31-36).

 

 

this leads me to believe that once they die, god will explain to them everything and they will understand it all and they will believe in him and ask him to come into their hearts and enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Chris777]

normally , no

(imo) i believe you have no right to kill yourself, you belong to god not to yourself. its not really your life you are taking.

 

in some cases, yes

there comes a point when some people dont get sick and die of cancer or whatever but they get sick in the head instead.

only god knows which people are and are not sick enough to not think clearly and judgements are very clouded.

some people are psychotic and hear voices that tell them to kill themselves. its been documented by lots of doctors that they seek medical attention from. these people clearly believe they hear voices that drive them insane. when one is insane, i think god calls them home any way he can.

 

insane of possesed?

I concede that not all mental "impairment" is demon induced/influenced, but Jesus as well as the apostles cast out demons, so obviously they exist(if one believes the Bible)

[Chris777]

Did they commit suicide? Is there a difference if they choose to remain and get burned naturally, of it they decided to jump out of a building for an instant death rather than being slowly burned alive? Would that make a difference in an eternal destination?

I probably should have posted these seperately as they really represented 2 different ideas and, unfortunately they did get a bit muddled.

 

in responce to the above I mentioned it thinking about the comments of one of my co workers after 911 stating that those who jumped, would go to hell for commiting suicide.

My personaly take on it is that a situation as chaotic as that is difficult to make such a statement on, given the intense heat, smoke etc.

It is like these hypothetical "justifications" for sin, and rejection of salvation, we don't always know what is in someone elses heart, only God can.

However, nobody just wakes up one morning and deliberately decides to go and kill themselves, it is usually due to some severe depression or a terminal illness where they are going to die soon anyway.

The same as the above scenerio. For example, if you are in a semi-coma, and vegetating on a respirator where you will die if it is unplugged, and you are going to die in a week, then will it make a real difference in the grand scheme of things if that respirator was unplugged on request of the patient?

Is that 'really' a decision, or a choice between an inevitable outcome of death, such as jumping from a burning building?

God Gives, and takes away life, as Christians, if we "speed up the process" we are not obeying him, we are following our own will not his

Now, we know that some hasty or bad decisions could be made in the spur of the moment if enough emotion is overpowering reason. Sometimes those decisions can be fatal.

 

The problem of decision is this - people who choose to kill themselves have a crazy mind, because why would anyone want to destroy themselves unless they are insane? If they are truely insane, then are they really responsible for their actions? Now I understand, if they trust Christ, that should keep them going rather than having to take their lives - but would God hold every single person accountable to a rash insane decision and predicate their whole eternal outcome on that decision?

I live with chronic pain I don't want to be here ,now their is a difference between myself, and say an atheist, who believes their suffering will end with suicide, whereas I believe my suffering would only be beginning if i commited it. I am reminded of Pauls statements, about being here on earth for the benefit of others rather than himself.

Insanity is debateable I am uncomfortable with giving it too much power, in that much of its credibility is from psychology a decidedly atheistic/satanic view of things. I have seen it so I know it exist, but I would not say that it is always a medical condition, as I believe that many of the false religions that now exist, are straight from the lips of demons. Remember God is not the author of confusion, and what is insanity but confusion?

as to how God will judge them, I believe he is fair, in all his judgement in ways we are incapable of, and in cases where the scripture is vague, or does not clearly have an example, or "type of example" (IE drunkenness, can be easily equated with drug use) then I leave it up to his judgement, because we are unable to see things from his perspective

[Chris777]

One thing I always wondered about is what happens to the people that die and have never heard of Christ? I was told that those people would be judged on works but once a person hears that Jesus died for them they become accountable for either accepting or rejecting that message. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this.

 

I wouldnt believe anything without scripture to back it up.

We know God is just, and fair, and his judgement will be righteous.

[Chris777]

Ignorance is no excuse in a court of law. You cant say to a judge, gee, I didn't know speeding was illegal in this county, can you let me off the hook?

Gods laws and the laws of man are not the same

 

(the original quote from hot cali)

And the billions of people who live never even knowing what Christianity is, accordingly to your beliefs they too are going to burn in hell when they die.

Not so. I don't know who told you that, but this simply isn't true.

moose should have ended his sentence here.

 

 

How can God hold you accountable for something you're simply ignorant of?

Think of all the mute, mentally challenged, and children out there that can't comprehend the saving grace of God?????

as this is not nessesarily scripturally based, The scripture is silent, so we dont know exactly what God will do, but we do know it will be just, as he is always just.

 

That is why, if people do not reach the people who are not saved, or doing everything in their best efforts to reach them, then they are all going to hell. HotCaliGirl is right, with exception of children, anyone who doesn't have an opportunity to hear the Gospel is either going to hell, or very likely to go to hell if there is any ambiguity.

The "age of accountability" is not scriptural and is a tradition of men, so technically they would be included as well in your above statement, so.

I ask you to show scripture that condems someone to hell if they are not given the opportunity to hear the gospel in the same way you ask moose below.(or a verse excluding children)

 

Moose, you cant show any verse in the Bible that will show anyone, who doesn't believe Jesus Christ, is going to make it, can you?

I agree that Jesus is the absolute only way of salvation, for those that have heard the gospel, and have rejected it, for whatever reason, ie: Buddist(deception), mormon(another {false}gospel),atheist(seeing themselves, as god/foolishness),

But on things the Bible, doesnt clearly speak of, I Leave that up to God. (all people that lived and died before Jesus) It's all hypothetical, both the skeptics questions, as well as an unscriptural anwser. So when you attempt to anwser a question you dont have any scriptural foundation to stand on, it comes across as being ingenuine, especially when you can produce no scripture to back it up.

 

 

Mentally challenged people, who specifically have no moral judgement and children are protected as Jesus is shown to love little children when His disciples asked who was the greatest, so they are protected too. People who never heard the Gospel may be out of luck though,

this is stretching a bit

I dont know how that is going to work theologically.

this is the most solid statement on this issue, unless we all are forgetting a verse.

[Chris777]

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/secdchn.html

I know I am the last person who should say someone talks too much, but it really gripes me when I feel like someone is writing something , for the sake of writing, this whole page (and about 95% of books) could have been summed up in a much shorter and concice maner, without all the verbal diarria.

"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Romans 11:31-36).

 

this leads me to believe that once they die, god will explain to them everything and they will understand it all and they will believe in him and ask him to come into their hearts and enter the kingdom of heaven.

Near as I can tell this chapter speaks about how we as gentiles have been given the opportunity of salvation because of the Jews rejection of Christ.

 

 

I started to just post part of the chapter but It was so rich

1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15: For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30: For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34: For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

35: Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[Chris777]

I have not forgotten about you Cali, I was rereading your post, and trying to understand your perspective a little further, I will try to elaborate on your questions tomorrow, as its getting late.

[HotCaliGirl]

ok Chris777...now go get some rest so you'll be able to tackle some of my questions!

[Admiral Thrawn]

as this is not nessesarily scripturally based, The scripture is silent, so we dont know exactly what God will do, but we do know it will be just, as he is always just.

 

Wrong Chris777, the Bible says John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

 

John 3:14-15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.

That whoseover believeth in him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have eternal life".

 

In the wilderness, when the serpant was lifted, people who did not look to it were killed by the firy serpants.

 

Now, what did the Bible mean by perish - obviously they did not mean just to die, because everybody dies. It is referring to a SECOND DEATH in Revelation. What does the Bible say about the SECOND DEATH?

 

Revelation 21:8 "....shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH."

 

This is that the Gospel is referring to when it says 'shall not perish but have everlasting life". It is therefore theologically tenable and reasonable to purport a doctrine where, if you do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are going to hell. You are in a 'state of condemnation' if you do not currently trust Jesus Christ as your Savior, and by the grace of God you are kept alive to have an opportuntiy extended to receive Jesus as your Savior.

 

 

The "age of accountability" is not scriptural and is a tradition of men, so technically they would be included as well in your above statement, so.

I ask you to show scripture that condems someone to hell if they are not given the opportunity to hear the gospel in the same way you ask moose below.(or a verse excluding children)

 

Sure Chris777, I will be very happy to. The scripture can be found in

Romans 10:13-15 It says:

 

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?..."

 

This means, the only way someone can accept Jesus Christ is if they hear about Jesus Christ, read about Him, they have to know before they can believe.

 

 

These two verses in John and Romans qualify the doctrine that people who do not hear the Gospel will go to hell. Furthermore, there is another issue.

 

If it is true, that people who do not hear the Gospel may make it to heaven - then aren't Evangelists doing more harm than good by giving people an opportunity to 'reject' the Gospel, and thereby causing people who hear and reject the Gospel to go to hell, when otherwise they may have gone to heaven if they did not know? I mean, if it were true, that people who never heard the Gospel can get off scotch free -- then I would be the first to say, make sure nobody hears the Gospel, to ensure nobody can reject the Gospel, so everyone would go to heaven. So, the implications would be absurd, and Evangelism would become counter-productive. The reality therefore is the Gospel has to be preached to every human being on this planet if Christians truely love souls, and want to dedicate their lives to doing the will of God.

 

It is the will of God that every single person gets saved.

 

Now, as HotCaliGirl and others have correctly mentioned, the situation gets sticky when you are talking about Native Aborginals, where it doesn't seem that God has called anyone to go over-seas and minister to them, or in India for that matter, when the Apostels were told by the Spirit not to go there. Is it because God didn't like Indians? God loves everyone. So, these matters start getting very confusing.