Why did Jesus die for our sins?

[Mz. Pixie]

and throw myself on the mercy of the court. And I'm sticking to it! That, and my decent track record.

 

Lord, I applogize for dat right dare… and G-d bless all the starvin' pigmies down in New Guinea.

 

Gosh, even though I've not murdered anyone or anything like that, my track record is not so good in my opinion. I would be what anyone considers a good person but I'm not so good I want to rest on my morals when, again, my book, the Bible tells me "I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the Father except by Me". When the ultimate example is Jesus, anything that I've done pales in comparison. But I'm only speaking for myself.

 

I almost spewed my coffee when I saw you quote the Cable Guy. He's hilarious!

[Mz. Pixie]

I'd like to add that it is extremely hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that my stepcreep will be in Heaven if he accepted Christ just like I will, when he was the molestor and I was the victim.

 

That is something that I cannot understand. Do I think that there will be punishment for that kind of thing?? Absolutely. My mind cannot wrap around the fact that someone will get off scot free for that.

 

But yet, I committed adultery. I don't think that I will be unpunished for that either just because I'm a Christian.

 

I don't understand it but because I believe what the Bible says, I have to accept it with Faith.

 

I know that the Bible says "All things will be revealed" in Heaven. I truly believe that and until then, I'm awaiting the answer to how all of that is possible. I've often joked with my friends when something has happened that I cannot understand- for instance- how Susan Smith could kill her children and not be struck dead at that moment- "I'm keeping a list, are you guys keeping a list?? Of the questions you want answered when we get there??"

[Admiral Thrawn]

 

Oh Yeah: You dodged this.....care to answer me?

 

Not really. Grace2005 brought this up on a thread called 'Eternal Security' and I had posted several times on the matter.

 

The doctrine I believe is that eternal consequences can only be made on this life and not the next one. So, technically, if you have committed suicide, then the parameters of life is closed - meaning you can not get right with God.

 

To suggest that someone can get right with God, after they have committed suicide, would be to suggest that anyone could get right with God after they are dead, but we all know, once you are in hell, or infront of the judgement seat of God, there are no second chances - and you have to own up to everything you did in life and accept the consequences.

[Moose]

Not really. Grace2005 brought this up on a thread called 'Eternal Security' and I had posted several times on the matter.

So what? Are you not willing to edify in this case? I'm not going to go searching for what you posted......I asked a specific question, and you don't want to answer? That's cheezy.....

The doctrine I believe is that eternal consequences can only be made on this life and not the next one.

I know that:rolleyes: , I'm talking about one who has already made the decision to follow Christ, has accepted Christ as their Saviour, but for some reason decides to commit suicide. This person is already right with God, but falls into a deep depression, (is sick), and commits suicide.

 

What of them?

 

Sometimes AT, you HAVE to admit you don't know it all......

[Admiral Thrawn]

I'm talking about one who has already made the decision to follow Christ, has accepted Christ as their Saviour, but for some reason decides to commit suicide. This person is already right with God, but falls into a deep depression, (is sick), and commits suicide.

 

What of them?

 

Sometimes AT, you HAVE to admit you don't know it all......

 

Even if you are a born-again Christian all sins committed have to be confessed, forsaken, and forgiven. If a person commits suicide, how is he or she going to confess, forsake, and ask for forgiveness for that sin, once he or she is technically outside the parameters of life?

 

Unless, you feel you can sin with impunity, and not confess, forsake and ask for forgiveness because you were saved at one point of time, however, the bible doesn't hold to that doctrine.

 

Now, the issues you also raised are culpability, are people committing suicide responsible for killing themselves? If they are not, then it is not a sin. If they are, then it is a sin they wont have a chance of seeking forgiveness for if they are dead.

[Moose]

Skip the long explanation will ya?

 

Will they, or will they not go to Heaven?

 

Why do you feel the need to over explain things? You just confuse people when you go into long theological explainations.

 

Simplify your answers, you'll get farther.......not only with fellow B'sIC, but with the lost as well....

[Admiral Thrawn]

Skip the long explanation will ya?

 

Will they, or will they not go to Heaven?

 

Why do you feel the need to over explain things? You just confuse people when you go into long theological explainations.

 

Simplify your answers, you'll get farther.......not only with fellow B'sIC, but with the lost as well....

 

They will go to hell.

[Chris777]

I frequently hear that Jesus died for our sins and it is used as an excuse for people to sin like there's no tomorrow, because Jesus alrady paid the price for all the sins we did and will commit.

He himself said that their would be people who claimed to know him, that clearly had no clue as to who he really was when he left the door closed on them when they came begging admitance

That's why murderers and molesters will all still be able to go to heaven, as long as they thank jesus for dying for our sins and believing in him. Almost everyone in jail reads the bible, so pretty much everyone is basically going to heaven.

Repentance is the key word. Their is a whole big list of people, including adulterors, fornicators, thieves, homosexuals, idolators, drunkards, extortioners, not to mention the arroeementioned murderers, and pedophiles ,who will never gain entrance into heaven.

the Bible says "let God be true, and every man be a liar" the text is his, so anyone who misquotes it, or gives their own view of things is a liar, in that they speak of things from a perspective, that they know nothing of.

Can someone please explain what this is all about? It just doesn't make sense to me!

the opportunity of salvation is open to EVERYONE. Therefore no one is barred from the chance of being saved, no matter how grave their sin, may have the appearance of being, even murder, rape, and child molestation. In the eyes of God no sin is greater than the other, They are ALL vile, and repugnant.

We as sinful humans are incapable of saving ourselves, no matter what some may claim.

therefore we needed the assistance of God, to cleanse or purge our sins from us.

 

You obviously do not view yourself in the same class as murderers or pedophiles, but you dont exactly state how you do view yourself. Care to elaborate? Do you think you are more "worthy", "better", "worse", or some other view altogether?

 

On the suicide questions

 

the Bible calls the body of a Christian the Temple of God.

Do you think you could go and set fire to a church? It being a building crafted from our own hands to honor God.

Then how do you think he might feel if you intentionally destroyed a temple he himself crafted? (your own body)

defilement is defilement

[Admiral Thrawn]

Repentance is the key word. Their is a whole big list of people, including adulterors, fornicators, thieves, homosexuals, idolators, drunkards, extortioners, not to mention the arroeementioned murderers, and pedophiles ,who will never gain entrance into heaven.

the Bible says "let God be true, and every man be a liar" the text is his, so anyone who misquotes it, or gives their own view of things is a liar, in that they speak of things from a perspective, that they know nothing of.

 

HotCaliGirl seems to think that once a person is a murderer or child molester they should not have a chance for salvation or their after-the-fact repentence is invalid for them not being no longer a murderer or child molester. Anyone can say "yeah, I'll repent of this later after I do this deed", well it is fine and dandy to repent in jail - since you are behind bars anyway. She thinks the whole concept is a sham - because there is a loving God who will always accept you back after someone is 'done with their sick fun'.

 

You obviously do not view yourself in the same class as murderers or pedophiles, but you dont exactly state how you do view yourself. Care to elaborate? Do you think you are more "worthy", "better", "worse", or some other view altogether?

 

Her posts indicate that she was deeply offended when she was seen on the same 'human being' level as a murderer or pedophile.

 

On the suicide questions

 

the Bible calls the body of a Christian the Temple of God.

Do you think you could go and set fire to a church? It being a building crafted from our own hands to honor God.

Then how do you think he might feel if you intentionally destroyed a temple he himself crafted? (your own body)

defilement is defilement

 

However, nobody just wakes up one morning and deliberately decides to go and kill themselves, it is usually due to some severe depression or a terminal illness where they are going to die soon anyway.

[Chris777]

However, nobody just wakes up one morning and deliberately decides to go and kill themselves,

most cases yes, but consider those that leaped to their deaths in the twin towers

 

it is usually due to some severe depression or a terminal illness where they are going to die soon anyway.

 

what does this have to do with the decision though?

[penkitten]

jesus died for us because he loved us and wanted us to be with him in heaven one day and that could only happen thru his bloodshed.

 

he had the power to stop it, to call out for angels to help him however he choose not to because he loved us and believed in us.

[penkitten]

Will they, or will they not go to Heaven?

 

 

normally , no

(imo) i believe you have no right to kill yourself, you belong to god not to yourself. its not really your life you are taking.

 

in some cases, yes

there comes a point when some people dont get sick and die of cancer or whatever but they get sick in the head instead.

only god knows which people are and are not sick enough to not think clearly and judgements are very clouded.

some people are psychotic and hear voices that tell them to kill themselves. its been documented by lots of doctors that they seek medical attention from. these people clearly believe they hear voices that drive them insane. when one is insane, i think god calls them home any way he can.

[HotCaliGirl]

jesus died for us because he loved us and wanted us to be with him in heaven one day and that could only happen thru his bloodshed.

 

he had the power to stop it, to call out for angels to help him however he choose not to because he loved us and believed in us.

Why did Jesus choose that particiular act? If it was a woman, she would've chosen something less gruesome and more civilized that humans, especially women could relate to. And I am coming to believe that if there is such a thing as God, then Christianity is not his religion because someone as smart as him wouldn't forgive murderers and send them to heaven while ordering kind people to burn and be tortured forever like the most un-understanding type of character to come into being, just because they have doubts and do not believe in him, like a cold, egotistical monster worse than the act of any of the evilist people who have ever lived throughout history.

 

If Christianity is all about love, then why would their God do such a cruel act that not even humans here on earth do? If he is so right, then why don't churches round up all the non-believers now and start burning them instead of waiting for god to do all the dirty work after they die? Why not get rid of them and release all the murderers who are going to be rewarded anyways?

[lindya]

Why did Jesus choose that particiular act?

 

To be fair to Jesus, it wasn't his choice. It was the choice of his enemies. A bunch of religious zealots - funnily enough!

 

I am coming to believe that if there is such a thing as God, then Christianity is not his religion because someone as smart as him wouldn't forgive murderers and send them to heaven while ordering kind people to burn and be tortured forever like the most un-understanding type of character to come into being, just because they have doubts and do not believe in him, like a cold, egotistical monster worse than the act of any of the evilist people who have ever lived throughout history.

 

You don't think that's simply a social construct aimed at influencing society's more dangerous and irrational members? Give people hope, and there's a chance that you will be able to exert some control over them. Take away any hope a person might have of salvation, and who knows what damage they might cause.

[HotCaliGirl]

To be fair to Jesus, it wasn't his choice. It was the choice of his enemies. A bunch of religious zealots - funnily enough!

I have to give this some more thought, as in why give power to the enemy by making their act so important? Basically if they hadn't done that to him, he would never have saved all the sinners in the future? Then why do people say >>HE<< sacrificed himself when he in fact had no choice then, was in the hands of his enemy who killed him?

You don't think that's simply a social construct aimed at influencing society's more dangerous and irrational members? Give people hope, and there's a chance that you will be able to exert some control over them. Take away any hope a person might have of salvation, and who knows what damage they might cause.

Why focus on giving hope to the dangerous and irrational members, at the expense of taking hope away from the obedient? I could be working my ass off, paying my taxes, giving to charity and not getting anyone including myself into trouble, yet as soon as I stop breathing, I am going to be burning and torturing for millions of years to come at God's choice, while murderers and molestors will be flying with angels in the clouds? Why can't god be loving with no strings attached, unconditionally, instead of I'll love you and save you from the fire that will await you in hell, "only if" you love me first?

 

Many people can't help not finding it convincing enough to believe in him, maybe people didn't record their experience with him properly or convincingly? or people weren't brought up the same as someone else or for whatever reason...maybe at my age the fact that I'm not clear why Jesus died for our sins? who's fault is it and why should I be punished by someone who is preached to be loving, with pain and suffering, instead of with understanding? Why can't he say "see, I really do exist" and give people a chance after we die, just like we give people second chances on earth?

[converse02]

To original poster:

 

Jesus was a religious guru.

He was peaching, the Romans/Jews didn't like it, and executed him.

His followers needed an excuse to explain how their supposed "God" got himself killed and made up some nonsense about his "great love" and "dying for their sins." They threw a bunch of miracles into the mix. The masses ate it up.

 

Hope this helps.

[HotCaliGirl]

converse02, I'm feeling like the whole story is now a "sidebar" to the bigger issue. Let's say if I believe 100% that Jesus was god, he did this miracle and that miracle, etc etc... As a law-abiding citizen, I would have difficulty sleeping at night knowing that my friend who is just as law-abiding as myself, but who doesn't believe in the story I believe in, is going to be burning in hell. The child molester across the street, he goes to church every Sunday, so he is going to go to heaven, along with Jeffrey Dahmer who believed in jesus. That makes me think it's all nonsense.

 

My mind finds no logic in that type of behavior as being loving. Even surviving family members of murder victims sometimes can't find it in their heart to have the murderer killed. Lacey Peterson's mother wants her murder husband to stay in prison the rest of his life and not get executed, yet God will open his arms and send him to heaven if he is a believer, and let's say if Lacey was not religious, she is going to go to hell. Even her mother has mercy on Scott, yet if we don't BLINDLY believe in jesus, god is going to send us to burn for all eternity, and that is a loving god? I am trying to understand this concept.

[lindya]

Then why do people say >>HE<< sacrificed himself when he in fact had no choice then, was in the hands of his enemy who killed him?

 

I'm no expert in theology. I suppose he had the power to save himself, but likewise humanity had the power to save him/not betray him. His death would be the horrible consequence of people giving in to group thinking and refusing to follow their hearts and speak up against wrongs and injustices.

 

This is why, linking in to something RR said earlier, I have a problem with organised religion. All too often, the dogmatic nature of many of its noisiest proponents seems very similar to the attitudes and behaviours that Jesus was apparently sent down to challenge.

 

Why focus on giving hope to the dangerous and irrational members, at the expense of taking hope away from the obedient? I could be working my ass off, paying my taxes, giving to charity and not getting anyone including myself into trouble, yet as soon as I stop breathing, I am going to be burning and torturing for millions of years to come at God's choice, while murderers and molestors will be flying with angels in the clouds? Why can't god be loving with no strings attached, unconditionally, instead of I'll love you and save you from the fire that will await you in hell, "only if" you love me first?

 

How do you define love? Is it demonstrated by the person who does good works and goes to church every week because they fear the prospect of hell? Or is it demonstrated by someone who does good things for other people for no particular reason other than because that's what their own soul tells them to do?

 

I have a very hazy view of religion. I couldn't describe myself as a Christian, because I don't go to church every Sunday. Or any Sunday, actually. On the other hand, I wouldn't feel comfortable with the description of atheist...because I have some sense that we all have a soul, and I think that ties in with a belief in God.

 

My view, to be honest, is that some people need religion as a form of spiritual guidance more than others do. Again, that links in to what RR said about the sick requiring healing. The irritant is that those who are perhaps most in need of guidance continually insist on preaching to - and describing as "lost" - others who have their own inner guide. They remind me of map-readers who have no natural sense of direction, but insist on stopping passers by and painstakingly trying to issue directions to them (with reference to the map they're holding) as to how they should find their way home.

[witabix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by witabix

Ok a hypothetical situation....

 

A man kills me.

 

I will, by the standards I see here, go to hell.

 

I have commited the sin that AT said was unforgivable. Blaphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

1.Which is probably in the context of rejecting Jesus as your saviour.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by witabix

I have never murdered, raped, abused etc.

 

But I go to hell.

 

 

2.You have done other sins. If ever you hated anyone in your life, or harbored lustful thoughts for someone, then you are a murder and a rapist, as you have the same thoughts, intentions and heart as one, the only difference is, you have not acted on it.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by witabix

The killer goes to prison.

 

Repents and is born again into the light of Jesus Christ.

 

He dies and goes to heaven.

 

Fair?

 

 

3.You have the same opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as someone in prison does, or anyone else for that matter. So, yes it is fair.

 

Interesting reply AT.

 

I would like to deal with each of your replies individually.

 

1. Yes, I unequivocally reject Jesus as my saviour.

 

2. This is the nub of what interests me most about the evangelising types. Hated anyone, or harboured lustful thoughts == murderer, rapist. If you think this strikes any fear into me you are wrong.

 

I can tell the difference between hating someone and killing them.

 

I can tell the difference between thinking I am going to go home and have wild lustful sex with my wife and raping her.

 

So we equate thought with deed in a direct equivalence. This makes sense in the world of the ultra religious. I think god exists therefore he does. I can follow the logic.

 

I have the same thoughts, heart and intentions as rapist. I have engaged in what I thought was a rational discussion. You accuse me of being a murderer and rapist in intention if not deed. Is this rational discussion?

 

Or is it the rantings of disturbed mind?

 

Are you so far from the light of your religious beliefs that you feel morally empowered to make such outrageous accusations to another human being, who you have never met. You are judging me.

 

You seem to like to quote the bible, but you do not either understand or accept your own message.

 

I would suggest you get some counselling for your own anger and hatred. I think you appear to be suffering from some form of deity impersonation complex.

 

3. Read my post again AT. I am killed at the hands of a murderer. I have had my chance to repent removed by a murderer. Who is to say I would not have been saved the next day? But he gets the chance to be saved. He tells you that he is born again etc, you forgive him and he goes to heaven. You say yes it is fair. Your logic, such as it is, is seriously flawed here.

 

In conclusion I will say this. You have my thoughts. I hope you find peace from the demons that pursue your soul.

 

I forgive you for insulting me.

 

Without the need for you to apologise, as I believe you never would.

 

I will turn the other cheek.

 

Find some peace for your tortured mind and spirit.

 

Go in peace AT, to love and serve your Lord.

[Admiral Thrawn]

most cases yes, but consider those that leaped to their deaths in the twin towers

 

Did they commit suicide? Is there a difference if they choose to remain and get burned naturally, of it they decided to jump out of a building for an instant death rather than being slowly burned alive? Would that make a difference in an eternal destination?

 

 

what does this have to do with the decision though?

 

The same as the above scenerio. For example, if you are in a semi-coma, and vegetating on a respirator where you will die if it is unplugged, and you are going to die in a week, then will it make a real difference in the grand scheme of things if that respirator was unplugged on request of the patient?

Is that 'really' a decision, or a choice between an inevitable outcome of death, such as jumping from a burning building?

 

Now, we know that some hasty or bad decisions could be made in the spur of the moment if enough emotion is overpowering reason. Sometimes those decisions can be fatal.

 

The problem of decision is this - people who choose to kill themselves have a crazy mind, because why would anyone want to destroy themselves unless they are insane? If they are truely insane, then are they really responsible for their actions? Now I understand, if they trust Christ, that should keep them going rather than having to take their lives - but would God hold every single person accountable to a rash insane decision and predicate their whole eternal outcome on that decision?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Why did Jesus choose that particiular act?

 

Jesus did the Father's will and remained obediant to the Father to the end. Jesus Himself had asked His Father that, if it were possible, to pass the cup of suffering from Him. I'm sure you know about the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemany before Jesus was betrayed.

 

That prayer shows that there is no other possible way that this could have been avoided as it is absolutely necessary in order for people to be made right with God. If there was, if it was Buddah, Hindu, some other religion, come other possible way that people could be saved, the cup would have been passed and all this would not have happened.

 

If it was a woman, she would've chosen something less gruesome and more civilized that humans, especially women could relate to.

 

The seed of sinful man comes through Adam, therefore the Saviour or the 'Second Adam' (as in the book of Romans) must be male.

 

And I am coming to believe that if there is such a thing as God, then Christianity is not his religion because someone as smart as him wouldn't forgive murderers and send them to heaven while ordering kind people to burn and be tortured forever like the most un-understanding type of character to come into being, just because they have doubts and do not believe in him, like a cold, egotistical monster worse than the act of any of the evilist people who have ever lived throughout history.

 

That is why there are plenty of religions out there because people want to believe their own version of 'God', as opposed to the true version. You like the easy way out and say, you are not that bad, so you dont need a saviour.

 

The fact of the matter is, the murderers and criminals, just show how bad that human beings, outside of Christ can get - and how messed up people are as a corrupted race.

 

In your case, it is not a matter of doubts and not believing in Him, but rather that you feel that you are too good to need to be saved by Him, as portrayed in your posts. You were offended at the idea when I talked about murderers and molesters receiving Christ and being part of the Kingdom.

 

The fact of the matter is you are not good enough, you are a sinner just like everyone else. Nobody in heaven has made it on account of their good deeds or earned a seat in heaven. If you want a religion that recognises salvation by works - then there plenty around - in fact pretty much all of them can not guarantee salvation and would encourage you to work your way up. The logical challenge to that, is how many good-works do you need to cross out your bad-deeds, and suppose you did lots of good-deeds, and one day decided to kill someone? Certainly not a viable logic.

 

If Christianity is all about love, then why would their God do such a cruel act that not even humans here on earth do?

 

It is the only way to save you. Jesus died for your sins.

 

If he is so right, then why don't churches round up all the non-believers now and start burning them instead of waiting for god to do all the dirty work after they die? Why not get rid of them and release all the murderers who are going to be rewarded anyways?

 

Jesus came to seek and save those who are lost not to condemn the world.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Why focus on giving hope to the dangerous and irrational members, at the expense of taking hope away from the obedient? I could be working my ass off, paying my taxes, giving to charity and not getting anyone including myself into trouble, yet as soon as I stop breathing, I am going to be burning and torturing for millions of years to come at God's choice, while murderers and molestors will be flying with angels in the clouds? Why can't god be loving with no strings attached, unconditionally, instead of I'll love you and save you from the fire that will await you in hell, "only if" you love me first?

 

You are making yourself unworthy to receive Christ by saying you are too good for all of that. God already has shown His love for you - He died for you and rose from the dead. Each torture by the hands of the Roman soldiers on that cross was because of HotCaliGirl, so you could go to heaven.

 

He did this all because of your sins. Whether you love Him or not. Let's say you hate him. Same thing, He still did this all for you. He loved the Roman Soldiers who crucified Him, He did all this because He loves HotCaliGirl, and wants to have a relationship with you with the Father.

 

This is the love of Christ towards you. So, whether you like it or not, believe it or not, care about it or not, Jesus died for each and every one of your sins. Just thank Him for it and acknowledge this. What is so complicated with that?

 

Many people can't help not finding it convincing enough to believe in him, maybe people didn't record their experience with him properly or convincingly?

 

Or they make a choice that they enjoy the pleasures of sin and that the world has to offer rather than receiving Christ.

 

or people weren't brought up the same as someone else or for whatever reason...maybe at my age the fact that I'm not clear why Jesus died for our sins?

 

Well, now you know somebody loves you to the extent that they would die for you, even though you do not know Him right now. What is about you that is worth dying for? Only God knows because that is what He did for you. And for all of us, for that matter.

 

who's fault is it and why should I be punished by someone who is preached to be loving, with pain and suffering, instead of with understanding? Why can't he say "see, I really do exist" and give people a chance after we die, just like we give people second chances on earth?

 

But, the reality is you are not punished now, you are alive, and therefore have an opportunity to receive Christ. You can still go to heaven. So what is the problem? Why dont you receive Christ today, and ask Him into your heart - He came to earth on a human form -- temporarily stripping Himself of Divine powers - to die on the Cross for HotCaliGirl -- for you specifically (and everyone else).

[Admiral Thrawn]

To original poster:

 

Jesus was a religious guru.

He was peaching, the Romans/Jews didn't like it, and executed him.

His followers needed an excuse to explain how their supposed "God" got himself killed and made up some nonsense about his "great love" and "dying for their sins." They threw a bunch of miracles into the mix. The masses ate it up.

 

Hope this helps.

 

No, the Jews were angry because Jesus healed on the Sabbath day and sought to kill Him for doing so and claiming equality with God. They became angry and scared of Jesus when He started raising people up from the dead, such as Lazarus. They wanted to kill both Him and Lazarus.

 

Your post basically shows you are ignorant of the Old Testament, and how the laws and the prophets point to Christ. The fact the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. Ever ask yourself why that Temple was destroyed? It is so obvious. Because animal sacrifices were no longer necessary to cover sins for a year - the one and true sacrifice was already made - and by gone, that Temple was destroyed.

 

The concept of animals being killed for people's sin is in the Old Testament, and Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac, his only son - as symbolising God sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ for the sins of the world.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Interesting reply AT.

 

I would like to deal with each of your replies individually.

 

1. Yes, I unequivocally reject Jesus as my saviour.

 

I hope God touches your life.

 

2. This is the nub of what interests me most about the evangelising types. Hated anyone, or harboured lustful thoughts == murderer, rapist. If you think this strikes any fear into me you are wrong.

 

I can tell the difference between hating someone and killing them.

 

I can tell the difference between thinking I am going to go home and have wild lustful sex with my wife and raping her.

 

So we equate thought with deed in a direct equivalence. This makes sense in the world of the ultra religious. I think god exists therefore he does. I can follow the logic.

 

I have the same thoughts, heart and intentions as rapist. I have engaged in what I thought was a rational discussion. You accuse me of being a murderer and rapist in intention if not deed. Is this rational discussion?

 

Or is it the rantings of disturbed mind?

 

Are you so far from the light of your religious beliefs that you feel morally empowered to make such outrageous accusations to another human being, who you have never met. You are judging me.

 

Do, you are judging yourself by saying what you are thinking or what you are doing. All I quoted is what Jesus said in the Bible and nothing more. Someone who has lustful thoughts is committing adultery and someone who has hateful thoughts is committing murder. Do you need me to quote where it is in the Gospel? This forms the doctrine that a sin does not have to be an action, it could be a mediative thought.

 

You seem to like to quote the bible, but you do not either understand or accept your own message.

 

What are you talking about?

 

I would suggest you get some counselling for your own anger and hatred. I think you appear to be suffering from some form of deity impersonation complex.

 

And you were telling me a few sentences ago that I was judging you. No, I am quoting Bible verses you are making judgements about everything. You do not even know me.

 

3. Read my post again AT. I am killed at the hands of a murderer. I have had my chance to repent removed by a murderer. Who is to say I would not have been saved the next day? But he gets the chance to be saved. He tells you that he is born again etc, you forgive him and he goes to heaven. You say yes it is fair. Your logic, such as it is, is seriously flawed here.

 

Well you can be saved now, so, why dont you do something about it now, rather than worry about hypothetical situations? Jesus did die for your sins you know, and you can receive Him into your life.

[HotCaliGirl]

That is why there are plenty of religions out there because people want to believe their own version of 'God', as opposed to the true version.

Why don't you respect others beliefs instead of stubbornly beleiving that anything other than what you believe in is "their own version" and not the "true version," like you have direct communication with god...why not be open-minded and realistic, and believe what you believe in, with the understanding that you may be 100% wrong, just like you think otehrs are 100% wrong?

You like the easy way out and say, you are not that bad, so you dont need a saviour.

The easy way out? The easy way out is to blindly believe and not question. I wish I wasn't so curious and skeptical, then there would be no struggle, just a comforting belief. Why do you talk down to others who disagree with you instead of respecting where they come from? I am here to discuss, not say this or that person is looking for an easy way out. That's disrespectful and not true. Whether or not I need a savior has nothing to do with if I am "that bad" or not, but what I believe and don't believe in. So far, I don't believe in a savior who is evil, the one who burns people and tortures them for egotistical reasons. I'd rather make one up in my head who is understanding and loving, and if he sees I struggle to believe, he would talk to me after I die to show me he really exists and not order me to burn like chopped wood. I might be missing some screws because I don't see that as a loving and forgiving act.

The fact of the matter is, the murderers and criminals, just show how bad that human beings, outside of Christ can get - and how messed up people are as a corrupted race.

Yet they are the ones who have the most faith, going in and out of prison with their bibles and they are the favored ones to go to heaven, while according to you I am going to burn in hell...I still don't find the logic behind it.