Perspective

[FredEire]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok so tell me then why I get no attractive matches on Tinder, Hinge and Bumble?

The market place has spoken very loudly. Its a wonderful idea that someone like this person I currently enjoy spending time with would find me attractive but guess what its just an idea and nothing more. 

In fact this entire conversation with said friend would never have happened had I not brought in "well maybe I can" and just accepted "no I cant". 

 

 

Your profile is likely not very good.

I can't tell you how many friends have had the same situation, tell me their profile is great with amazing pics and when I have a look they seem like a serial killer.

[BaileyB]

10 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

I wonder if, at some point, you will have a "teachable moment" and be prepared to grow or learn something different from the self talk you have perfected to such an extent.   

By the response to the question, the answer is a resounding no. 

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Your profile is likely not very good.

I can't tell you how many friends have had the same situation, tell me their profile is great with amazing pics and when I have a look they seem like a serial killer.

I have had various different profiles and bios over the years and none really get any attention, the attention I do get is from people I am not interested in, I went out with them though anyway because well I am told on this forum "its a numbers game". 

Maybe OLD does work for me?

[FredEire]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

I have had various different profiles and bios over the years and none really get any attention, the attention I do get is from people I am not interested in, I went out with them though anyway because well I am told on this forum "its a numbers game". 

Maybe OLD does work for me?

I would get input from people you know are successful at OLD. If you're bad at creating profiles, it's likely all of them will be bad.

Even very unattractive people can get good photos and create an attractive, interesting profile.

I don't know about your matches, you may have a fetish for being attracted only to people who don't like you, it's hard to say.

I do think it would be good to get some dating practice in if their profile says they are just looking to meet people. Getting out and about and actually talking to women in a dating scenario will help you even if it doesn't result in anything.

Sitting around waiting for "the one" will result in you being frustrated, desperate and needy, meaning even if you do meet someone you like the chances you will come off way too intense are a lot higher.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

I would get input from people you know are successful at OLD. If you're bad at creating profiles, it's likely all of them will be bad.

Even very unattractive people can get good photos and create an attractive, interesting profile.

I don't know about your matches, you may have a fetish for being attracted only to people who don't like you, it's hard to say.

I do think it would be good to get some dating practice in if their profile says they are just looking to meet people. Getting out and about and actually talking to women in a dating scenario will help you even if it doesn't result in anything.

Sitting around waiting for "the one" will result in you being frustrated, desperate and needy, meaning even if you do meet someone you like the chances you will come off way too intense are a lot higher.

Which is exactly what I did for years. Honestly I do not know anyone who has success at OLD, people I know who do well do not need to used OLD. Ladies I know who use it, well one had hundreds of matches so that just about says it all. Your suggestion is a good one and its why I got so much value out of the friend zone situations I had, to me those gave me about 50% of what I really enjoyed so what I am going to do is try continue this trend with the lady, she enjoys the events I arrange, know the people who go to them and seemingly enjoys them, she gets an event and I get someone to take go with me as a friend. There is a lot of good in that.

 I am always intense though I actually try not to be, much like I try to be confident and not awkward.

My bio does state my interests and does state I am writing a novel, that latter part does sometimes stimulate some discussion. I make sure to try keep my bio brief.

[FredEire]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Which is exactly what I did for years. Honestly I do not know anyone who has success at OLD, people I know who do well do not need to used OLD. Ladies I know who use it, well one had hundreds of matches so that just about says it all. Your suggestion is a good one and its why I got so much value out of the friend zone situations I had, to me those gave me about 50% of what I really enjoyed so what I am going to do is try continue this trend with the lady, she enjoys the events I arrange, know the people who go to them and seemingly enjoys them, she gets an event and I get someone to take go with me as a friend. There is a lot of good in that.

 I am always intense though I actually try not to be, much like I try to be confident and not awkward.

My bio does state my interests and does state I am writing a novel, that latter part does sometimes stimulate some discussion. I make sure to try keep my bio brief.

It tends to promote flakiness and pickiness, and has a lot of downright weird people. I think in person generally is a lot better way to meet people.

You need to drop the "zone". The term "friend zone" is loaded with neediness and sexual frustration. Please let me out of the friend zone so I can sleep with you basically.

I think it would be good for you to meet women and if there's no romantic connection but a good rapport nonetheless consider them a friend and be happy with that. Go along with them to social events, enjoy it and all sorts of things could lead from it. But trying to "get out of the friend zone" just shows your sexual frustration for all to see and puts off your new friend.

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, FredEire said:

It tends to promote flakiness and pickiness, and has a lot of downright weird people. I think in person generally is a lot better way to meet people.

You need to drop the "zone". The term "friend zone" is loaded with neediness and sexual frustration. Please let me out of the friend zone so I can sleep with you basically.

I think it would be good for you to meet women and if there's no romantic connection but a good rapport nonetheless consider them a friend and be happy with that. Go along with them to social events, enjoy it and all sorts of things could lead from it. But trying to "get out of the friend zone" just shows your sexual frustration for all to see and puts off your new friend.

I agree with you, problem is its very very challenging to not want more than friends, especially if its someone I really get along well with. Over a decade I have done this with various people but it has a very short life span relatively speaking, inevitably they pair up and then well despite me being about a threatening as a chicken its not acceptable for them to spend time with me which lands me back to where I find myself more often than not.

Also not sure how good it actually is for me to spend time around people I want more than friends with and can never be more than friends with, there is a significant downside to it but I guess that is true with everything. Its difficult to accept that limitation and its become more difficult over time because its not as if they actually include me in their life, its a case of come to an event once a month with me and that is it.

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater Do you think you’re a good catch? 
 

As for height, thinking it’s reasonable to want a woman the same height as you is ignoring reality. Women (not all, but most) want men to be taller than themselves and as luck would have it, men on average are about 5” taller than women! So that works out for most. 

[FredEire]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I agree with you, problem is its very very challenging to not want more than friends, especially if its someone I really get along well with. Over a decade I have done this with various people but it has a very short life span relatively speaking, inevitably they pair up and then well despite me being about a threatening as a chicken its not acceptable for them to spend time with me which lands me back to where I find myself more often than not.

Also not sure how good it actually is for me to spend time around people I want more than friends with and can never be more than friends with, there is a significant downside to it but I guess that is true with everything. Its difficult to accept that limitation and its become more difficult over time because its not as if they actually include me in their life, its a case of come to an event once a month with me and that is it.

You see, this is an example of you getting the wrong end of the stick completely, but being convinced you are right.

PUA philosophy says you have to start a friendship with the objective of "getting out of the friend zone" and once you demonstrate you are really an "alpha" they will change their mind and want to have sex with you.

It's you trying to do this that is actually putting them off. Passive aggressively wanting to portray yourself as the alpha creates an uncomfortable and off-putting atmosphere, which I suspect is the real reason these women didn't want to continue to be your friend.

Regards them exactly the same way as you would your male friends, act the same way around them, and the relationships will become a lot more enjoyable and mutually beneficial.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater Do you think you’re a good catch? 
 

As for height, thinking it’s reasonable to want a woman the same height as you is ignoring reality. Women (not all, but most) want men to be taller than themselves and as luck would have it, men on average are about 5” taller than women! So that works out for most. 

I think I can be a good catch yes. Am I beaten up by poor experiences yes but those do not have to define me either. There good qualities I have, I know that but after years of the same same its easy to believe they are irrelevant. Miss respond in 5 days is still around, the texts are informal and in good humor and I am trying to show the good qualities I do have. Nobody is perfect and I am by no means perfect, very flawed in fact and I do not mind showing that vulnerability, there is also a terrible family situation I had to go through, the lady and I discussed that so this time I did actually let someone in and not go all defensive.

[FredEire]

Do you actually value women as potential friends or think they are only useful as potential sexual partners? This is another example of a damaging philosophy that you could work on changing.

[Weezy1973]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think I can be a good catch yes.

What makes you a good catch? 

[ZA Dater]

Just now, FredEire said:

You see, this is an example of you getting the wrong end of the stick completely, but being convinced you are right.

PUA philosophy says you have to start a friendship with the objective of "getting out of the friend zone" and once you demonstrate you are really an "alpha" they will change their mind and want to have sex with you.

It's you trying to do this that is actually putting them off. Passive aggressively wanting to portray yourself as the alpha creates an uncomfortable and off-putting atmosphere, which I suspect is the real reason these women didn't want to continue to be your friend.

Regards them exactly the same way as you would your male friends, act the same way around them, and the relationships will become a lot more enjoyable and mutually beneficial.

Mutually beneficial how? For what its worth I did treat them the same as my male friends, trust me I do not do the alpha male impersonation well, I cannot stand people who over project that and often its these people who sit at dinners and proclaim how smart they are in an effort to impress their GF only to be found out when they display often astonishing levels of apathy. So no, I definitely do not do the Alpha Male thing. 

If anything I am probably guilty of in some instances not acting on what later appeared to be definite hints of actually wanting some physical contact. Again happy to be vulnerable about not being very good at that but how appealing is that to ladies based on past experience not very.

Mostly what happens is I land up in a friend zone where I have something tangible to offer be it contacts into a unique social circle, professional skills and oddly an ear to listen to them and provide moral support, something I am very good at doing.

[Gaeta]

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Which is exactly what I did for years. Honestly I do not know anyone who has success at OLD, people I know who do well do not need to used OLD. Ladies I know who use it, well one had hundreds of matches so that just about says it all. Your suggestion is a good one and its why I got so much value out of the friend zone situations I had, to me those gave me about 50% of what I really enjoyed so what I am going to do is try continue this trend with the lady, she enjoys the events I arrange, know the people who go to them and seemingly enjoys them, she gets an event and I get someone to take go with me as a friend. There is a lot of good in that.

 

1st bold: That's a bit insulting to respectable women who have found their husband or life partner online. Almost everybody around me has found their SO online including myself, my sibling, my children, my friends, my colleagues. It's a matter of how you present yourself and the quality of the dating app we use. I had many matches and I only had classy pictures, never showing skin. Of course I met weirdoes but I also met a series of good men. 

2nd bold: So after 17 pages of advice you will just keep on doing the same old thing which is revolve around women you desire but don't like you back. 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Do you actually value women as potential friends or think they are only useful as potential sexual partners? This is another example of a damaging philosophy that you could work on changing.

I value them as people because I have learnt most do not desire me sexually at all so even if I knew how, which I do not, I would never try an seduce someone. For me I'd just like someone to share life with who I find attractive overall. Women are not trophies or commodities and when I have to listen to my friends, he slept with so and so and so and so doing abc and I should try get laid, I am mostly ashamed to sit with the same people.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Gaeta said:

1st bold: That's a bit insulting to respectable women who have found their husband or life partner online. Almost everybody around me has found their SO online including myself, my sibling, my children, my friends, my colleagues. It's a matter of how you present yourself and the quality of the dating app we use. I had many matches and I only had classy pictures, never showing skin. Of course I met weirdoes but I also met a series of good men. 

2nd bold: So after 17 pages of advice you will just keep on doing the same old thing which is revolve around women you desire but don't like you back. 

I am sure OLD does work, I simply do not know anyone personally who has made it work. Its a multi billion industry so clearly it does work for a fair amount of people, no insult meant at all. Equally I have met apparently good people, sadly there was no attraction and no connection and often nothing in common, does not make them bad people.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

2: Tall being my height which is reasonable. Not attractive in terms of the sexual market place, yes that would seem to be the case

3: I do have an interesting life which unfortunately most cannot relate to, just so happens that interesting life branches off work and hobbies and they intermix.

4: I can indeed share about myself but mostly choose not to because the other person is not attractive.

6: World affairs, politics, economics, business, outdoors, good food those are all interests.

No quite often those men attracted people based on looks, what they are able to provide, charisma and maybe some fun factor. The fact  they slept around, spun endless half truths was deemed to be irrelevant.

But yes you summed up the issue quite nicely. Maybe in one regard my friends advice does make sense: just be their friend.

 

You’re making up stuff as you go along!  
 
Youve told us that your life is boring. You’ve told  you can’t talk about yourself because the only thing to say is that you have previous trauma. You’ve said that there are loads of 5’8 women, therefore 5’9 is not tall for a man.  You’ve said that all you have is work and now you have interests.    And so on…

With a story which changes so much, which part are we to believe?

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You’re making up stuff as you go along!  
 
Youve told us that your life is boring. You’ve told  you can’t talk about yourself because the only thing to say is that you have previous trauma. You’ve said that there are loads of 5’8 women, therefore 5’9 is not tall for a man.  You’ve said that all you have is work and now you have interests.    And so on…

With a story which changes so much, which part are we to believe?

By most objective measures it is boring, to me it is not. I can talk about myself if I so choose, work and interests are very closed tied together. 

[Wiseman2]

17 pages of whining. It must get exhausting. 

[FredEire]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Mutually beneficial how? For what its worth I did treat them the same as my male friends, trust me I do not do the alpha male impersonation well, I cannot stand people who over project that and often its these people who sit at dinners and proclaim how smart they are in an effort to impress their GF only to be found out when they display often astonishing levels of apathy. So no, I definitely do not do the Alpha Male thing. 

If anything I am probably guilty of in some instances not acting on what later appeared to be definite hints of actually wanting some physical contact. Again happy to be vulnerable about not being very good at that but how appealing is that to ladies based on past experience not very.

Mostly what happens is I land up in a friend zone where I have something tangible to offer be it contacts into a unique social circle, professional skills and oddly an ear to listen to them and provide moral support, something I am very good at doing.

Because you gain a friendship, you gain a woman's perspective on things, someone who is able to give you honest and friendly advice. You may meet their friend group which could contain women who are actually interested in you. You also show potential partners that you feel comfortable around women and are able to sustain a relationship with them, which is a big plus.

There's more contradictions, you say you aren't trying to be alpha but then you say women stopped being friends with you when you realised you were "about as threatening as a chicken". Why do you want to be threatening? With friends you want to be the opposite if anything.

Also you only seem to be friends with women you are physically attracted to, why? Some of my best friends are women I have no romantic interest in, I just think they're great people to spend time with. It suggests that you are desperate and always angling to sleep with the woman or win her over somehow. You don't see any value in friendships with women other than potential relationships or sex, meaning you don't treat them the same as your male friends at all.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Because you gain a friendship, you gain a woman's perspective on things, someone who is able to give you honest and friendly advice. You may meet their friend group which could contain women who are actually interested in you. You also show potential partners that you feel comfortable around women and are able to sustain a relationship with them, which is a big plus.

There's more contradictions, you say you aren't trying to be alpha but then you say women stopped being friends with you when you realised you were "about as threatening as a chicken". Why do you want to be threatening? With friends you want to be the opposite if anything.

Also you only seem to be friends with women you are physically attracted to, why? Some of my best friends are women I have no romantic interest in, I just think they're great people to spend time with. It suggests that you are desperate and always angling to sleep with the woman or win her over somehow. You don't see any value in friendships with women other than potential relationships or sex, meaning you don't treat them the same as your male friends at all.

 

I respect you and your advice hugely. My chicken comment is meant to imply I am the most unthreatening guy around, any guy who thinks I am going to try steal his GF is pretty wide of the mark. 

With respect I totally disagree with the bold, this is wonderful in theory hardly ever happens in reality, friends are not responsible for trying to find you dates over the year a friend has tried this and its been a total disaster every single time. Besides my friendships with these ladies are transactional in the sense I have something they want when they have had enough of that I do not exist and its run its course.

If I find someone attractive yes I am going to try win them over even though I cant.

[FredEire]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I respect you and your advice hugely. My chicken comment is meant to imply I am the most unthreatening guy around, any guy who thinks I am going to try steal his GF is pretty wide of the mark. 

With respect I totally disagree with the bold, this is wonderful in theory hardly ever happens in reality, friends are not responsible for trying to find you dates over the year a friend has tried this and its been a total disaster every single time. Besides my friendships with these ladies are transactional in the sense I have something they want when they have had enough of that I do not exist and its run its course.

If I find someone attractive yes I am going to try win them over even though I cant.

Thank you.

I agree it's not often a great idea for friends to try and set friends up. If it happens it usually happens naturally from being at social gatherings with others.

There is a generally theme of things lacking natural flow. You have to move away from thinking of everything as "transactional", it just isn't. There is no rulebook, no absolutes, no perfect code to crack and no perfect right answer. As long as you think like this it will keep you rigid, stiff and unnatural and prevent good things from coming into your life.

To the last part, don't. If you think friendship is what's on the table, take it and embrace it, don't expect anything but enjoy what a great friendship has to offer. Also be open to being friends with women who you don't find physically attractive but have a great personality. It will teach you a lot and allow you to relax around women.

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Thank you.

I agree it's not often a great idea for friends to try and set friends up. If it happens it usually happens naturally from being at social gatherings with others.

There is a generally theme of things lacking natural flow. You have to move away from thinking of everything as "transactional", it just isn't. There is no rulebook, no absolutes, no perfect code to crack and no perfect right answer. As long as you think like this it will keep you rigid, stiff and unnatural and prevent good things from coming into your life.

To the last part, don't. If you think friendship is what's on the table, take it and embrace it, don't expect anything but enjoy what a great friendship has to offer. Also be open to being friends with women who you don't find physically attractive but have a great personality. It will teach you a lot and allow you to relax around women.

I am generally quite relaxed, albeit my personality is quite intense. What is very hard is to be friends with someone you really like and know well she is not ever going to see you that way, in hindsight its something I should not do. Unfortunately with me everything is transactional because for the most part my worth is defined by that, being kind and generous is not really what interests them but getting into a difficult to find social circle, going to places which are difficult to go to, having fancy lunches in beautiful venues with very successful people. 

Honestly I sit with her and I feel engaged into the conversation, she is actually interested in talking to me and that is a very nice feeling, as is a conversation that flows. The problem is once I have experienced this, its all I want to experience all the time!

[Gaeta]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Unfortunately with me everything is transactional because for the most part my worth is defined by that, being kind and generous is not really what interests them but getting into a difficult to find social circle, going to places which are difficult to go to, having fancy lunches in beautiful venues with very successful people. 

Then stop it. Stop being a mean to an end for these women. Stop letting them use you.  If they don't want to go on a date then pass, go to next. Be yourself, so you're socially awkward so what! I would much prefer that than be sitting with a man who's trying to be something else than himself. You cannot blind women with that. As someone said we are highly sensitive to what people projects and if you project fake...we're not in. 

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Then stop it. Stop being a mean to an end for these women. Stop letting them use you.  If they don't want to go on a date then pass, go to next. Be yourself, so you're socially awkward so what! I would much prefer that than be sitting with a man who's trying to be something else than himself. You cannot blind women with that. As someone said we are highly sensitive to what people projects and if you project fake...we're not in. 

You are right but I do enjoy the attention which is more than I usually get so it's a sad situation all round really. If I don't do this dance I don't get slices of attention.

Maybe this time will be different.