Coffee Date

[normal person]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

At the forefront of that is being forthright and standing up for those who get treated badly, teach those who have not had the opportunities I have had AND ALWAYS put myself in the shoes of the person in front of me.

I am sorry this does not sit well in the dating world but it is my life and I refuse to compromise the basic elements of it on the HOPE that maybe someone might like a version of me who walks right with everyone else. 

I've done all these things too and it didn't hinder me much at all. I'm a decent person, I spent my dating years making efforts to treat people well and do the right thing even when it wasn't being reciprocated. I managed to still do just fine. To say it "doesn't sit well in the dating world" is hopelessly inaccurate. As you often tend to do, you're painting a black and white picture of a world where the only way to be successful is to lie, treat people badly, and act selfishly and obnoxiously. A world where you refuse to do that and sacrificed your romantic life to maintain your integrity because you're so upstanding. It seems to me as if you're describing things in this cartoonish way is because if you admitted to yourself that you're not entirely correct about it, you'd have to admit that your lack of success is more a result of something other than your personal choice not to partake.

The reason you don't have what you want is not because you refuse to compromise morality. It's partly because, amongst other things, you refuse to compromise on the reality of the dating landscape. The longer you keep telling yourself that success is impossible without deceit, the longer you'll be bitter, the longer you won't find opportunity where others would, the longer you'll keep spending your time here having cyclical arguments telling successful people how wrong they are, the longer you'll be where you are. 

You seem to think you're a reasonably intelligent person. So why do you think you keep falling back on these laughable arguments like "the dating world is incompatible with my morals," and "why should I have to change for a woman?" Do you honestly still not understand these concepts? Would your refusal to accept the fact that you're wrong make you feel worse? Would admitting that you're wrong make you feel like you wasted the thousands of hours you've spent here arguing your points? I just ask in case that's what's holding you back from coming to the other side of things. We're all just strangers here, you don't have to maintain that much pride. I think people here would be relieved and happy for if you just bit the bullet and admit that for years now you know you're misrepresenting a lot of these things you say to further your arguments. It'd certainly make it easier to give you good, reasonable, practical, advice. Otherwise you're still going to be on here, having these same conversations well into your 40s and beyond. I know you don't want what to happen. I understand your frustration, but if you actually want help, I really think you need a mea culpa with regards to a lot of your arguments so you can get past them and move forward. You have dozens of strangers who want you to succeed, giving you great advice, trying to help you, but there's only so much that can be done until you first accept that you might be wrong about a lot of things. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Women are usually pretty good at filling in the conversation as required, so when a woman feels the man is not putting in much effort or she is not getting much back she will just keep talking, rather than sit in silence... This incessant chat about work you experienced is an example I guess of that.
Women often like men to lead the conversation. Women are usually far more sociable than men, so she needs to see what he is made of.
In order to get to know him she wants him to say interesting things, she doesn't want to keep speaking on her own. She doesn't want to keep asking questions either.
Women are very used to carrying conversations but it does not usually impress her if she feels like she has to do most of the talking to fill in the gaps.
If a man is not keeping up his side and batting stuff back adequately, she will likely not see him as dating material.

That is interesting and relevant, see this is a problem I can have and its more related to what I call a lack of common interest and common ground,  which I guess is why for me dates where this does work are MUCH better than ones where it does not. The main problem here is its easy to run out a light conversation and I then default to business and world affairs.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

Why do you like finding out what people are passionate about?

Because when you do that is a good topic of conversation anything that interests someone they would naturally enjoy talking about and its easier to have this back and forth conversation if it is something that they enjoy chatting about. I admit I have been doing this wrong in terms of me actually wanting to find out about the person, I just dunno do not seem to take much value about talking about a persons job, it tells me very little about them, what they enjoy doing in their spare time tells me more and look lots of dates I have been on its very difficult to get them to actually talk about what they do in their spare time so I revert to work mode. What I do try to do is add some humour even if its stupid things I have done and they get to laugh at me.

 

[Not So Sad II]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

That is interesting and relevant, see this is a problem I can have and its more related to what I call a lack of common interest and common ground,  which I guess is why for me dates where this does work are MUCH better than ones where it does not. The main problem here is its easy to run out a light conversation and I then default to business and world affairs.

So take up a sport or hobby that you can talk about with other women that do it instead?

Its been mentioned that you do a sport, but which one is it?  I've met boyfriends through triathlon, a foreign language summer school and a university postgraduate course.  Plenty to talk about.  If you do competitions, you meet many more people.  

Why don't you join a debating society, if it interests you?  In fact, in general, why do you keep doing the same thing over and over again with limited success?  Is it because OLD has somehow spoiled you for normal human interactions?

If I were limiting myself to male models though, I doubt I'd have much success, because male models are a very limited sector of the population, and I'd assume they might want to date female models.

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, normal person said:

I've done all these things too and it didn't hinder me much at all. I'm a decent person, I spent my dating years making efforts to treat people well and do the right thing even when it wasn't being reciprocated. I managed to still do just fine. To say it "doesn't sit well in the dating world" is hopelessly inaccurate. As you often tend to do, you're painting a black and white picture of a world where the only way to be successful is to lie, treat people badly, and act selfishly and obnoxiously. A world where you refuse to do that and sacrificed your romantic life to maintain your integrity because you're so upstanding. It seems to me as if you're describing things in this cartoonish way is because if you admitted to yourself that you're not entirely correct about it, you'd have to admit that your lack of success is more a result of something other than your personal choice not to partake.

The reason you don't have what you want is not because you refuse to compromise morality. It's partly because, amongst other things, you refuse to compromise on the reality of the dating landscape. The longer you keep telling yourself that success is impossible without deceit, the longer you'll be bitter, the longer you won't find opportunity where others would, the longer you'll keep spending your time here having cyclical arguments telling successful people how wrong they are, the longer you'll be where you are. 

You seem to think you're a reasonably intelligent person. So why do you think you keep falling back on these laughable arguments like "the dating world is incompatible with my morals," and "why should I have to change for a woman?" Do you honestly still not understand these concepts? Would your refusal to accept the fact that you're wrong make you feel worse? Would admitting that you're wrong make you feel like you wasted the thousands of hours you've spent here arguing your points? I just ask in case that's what's holding you back from coming to the other side of things. We're all just strangers here, you don't have to maintain that much pride. I think people here would be relieved and happy for if you just bit the bullet and admit that for years now you know you're misrepresenting a lot of these things you say to further your arguments. It'd certainly make it easier to give you good, reasonable, practical, advice. Otherwise you're still going to be on here, having these same conversations well into your 40s and beyond. I know you don't want what to happen. I understand your frustration, but if you actually want help, I really think you need a mea culpa with regards to a lot of your arguments so you can get past them and move forward. You have dozens of strangers who want you to succeed, giving you great advice, trying to help you, but there's only so much that can be done until you first accept that you might be wrong about a lot of things. 

Alright I accept I may have been wrong but also look from my point of view, I used judgement and thought what I did was right, sure it might not have been, I accept that BUT what I WILL NOT accept is the argument around supposed leagues, that point blank irritates me and I think you can understand why, its at odds with me view that we should all aspire to what we really want.

I accept I have made mistakes of judgement, there is no doubt there and a lot of this is also because I have received pretty bad advice from people around me, that has to be said. The way I work in general is to put others first, trust me I feel terrible going on a date and having to reject someone, if I have to do that I rather make sure they reject me because I know how unpleasant it is.

A very large part of the error in judgement is also the fact there is not a lot of for want of a better word caring people around me, the models which everyone laughs at have generally been far more understanding of me as a person than the dates I have been on. Its also pretty demotivating to sit on dating apps and just simply never match with people I find attractive, my then needs a reason why so its easy to go looks and wealth, even easier when I look around me at guys who have those things and the absolute ease at which they date, those dots connect pretty well.

I actually like conversing, that was one of the things I enjoyed most with A during the lot of time I spent with her, anything and everything was open to discussion and I was never judged at all, here is someone who honestly can date whoever she wants but she still was able to relate to me. Where the the thing with me falls down is mostly there is a lack of mutual attraction.

In terms of action, yeah I like clothes shopping so I am going to do some of that, my fitness routine is going fairly well but its very hard to do those things and sit with much of the same as I always get. I never really fit in so that is an impediment too.

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 what I WILL NOT accept is the argument around supposed leagues...

You exact situation (and virginity) proves dating leagues exist...

You want to date/have sex with a hottie/model, and how has that worked out for you??

This is just basic logic.  Call it dating league... punching above your weight or whatever you want.  You are an average guy and you will never be able to date/have sex with a model.  Learn some game/skillz and maybe you can date an average woman.

I dated many women over my 30+ years of active dating, anytime I tried to date above my league, I had to spend a lot more money entertaining the woman and (in the end) they all left me for a guy with bigger wallet.

That is just the reality of life, or in simpler terms "Natural Selection".

 

 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

BUT what I WILL NOT accept is the argument around supposed leagues, that point blank irritates me and I think you can understand why, its at odds with me view that we should all aspire to what we really want.

Unfortunately  we can aspire to anything we want but there comes a time when we have to accept it is never going to happen.
We are never going to climb Mt. Everest, never going to be POTUS, never going to be a professional opera singer, never going to buy a tropical isle...
Yes you proved everyone wrong by being more successful in life than predicted but that doesn't mean a lot if you then decide to aspire to totally impossible goals.

Leagues whether you like it or not exist. They are a fact of life.
If you do not have what it takes to attract a woman out of your league, you are going to have to accept it and aspire to something else.
We can control what we think, how we act, but we cannot control other people.
Any highly desirable woman will be well aware she is way out of your league, she is thus NOT going to choose you anyway. 
NO she will try and find someone who is in her league...

Leagues do not matter quite so much in ordinary lives as people are usually well aware of where they lie in the League stakes.
They date accordingly. Willing men find willing women, willing women find willing men within their leagues.
You are extraordinary in that you refuse to believe where you stand in the dating stakes, despite all your failures.
You still think some wonderful top tier woman will forget about who she COULD date, who she COULD aspire to, and instead preferentially choose you... 

 

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not seem to take much value about talking about a persons job, it tells me very little about them, what they enjoy doing in their spare time tells me more

No, but it could lead to other things that would. For example, my partner works with computers. I could not tell you what he does - but I know that he owned his own business at one point. Now, he is a teacher. I know where he studied. I know what he likes and dislikes about his job. I know what his plans are for retirement. Do you see what I’m saying.I know that he’s hard working. I know that he values education. I know that he’s not afraid to take a risk. I know that he enjoys the summer holiday. I know lots about him from our discussion about his job. If you are curious about someone, you can learn more about that person from a discussion about their job, their family, and what they do for their spare time. All of the above, I learned on our first few dates. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been on its very difficult to get them to actually talk about what they do in their spare time

Again, if you ask me what I do in my spare time, I may say... “I don’t know, read.” If you ask me what kind of reading I like to do, and whether I’ve ever been in a book club, or if I have any recommendations, or tell me that you prefer movies... segway to a discussion about books that were made into movies and what your favourite movies are... then you have a good conversation.

Edited June 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[normal person]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

my then needs a reason why so its easy to go looks and wealth, even easier when I look around me at guys who have those things and the absolute ease at which they date, those dots connect pretty well.

Yeah, it's easy to note high visibility examples to make the point (and I'm not saying those things won't make a difference), but it's interesting how you only look at looks and wealth when it suits your argument and not when it doesn't. 
1). You're making it sound as if looks and wealth are the only differentiations between you and these people and they have no other things about them a woman would be interested in. As if they didn't have looks and wealth, they'd have just as much of a chance as you, ignoring all considerations of personality.

2). You conveniently ignore every average looking, average salaried man who has had success dating. 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I WILL NOT accept is the argument around supposed leagues, that point blank irritates me and I think you can understand why, its at odds with me view that we should all aspire to what we really want.

I'm not sure I follow you. Someone's aspirations are incongruous to what they're actually able to execute. Wanting to have x, y, and z isn't the same as actually attaining it. I agree with you, people should aspire to what they really want, if that's what they want to do with their time. But should all those people be rewarded just for wanting something? The winner gets the prize, not simply the participant. If you want to be a man that the models desire, that's fine. But until you are, the argument could be made that they're out of your league. You can change things, sure. That's within your power. Be a man they consider and desire, then you're in their league. All it is is a way of describing the landscape. Look up the matching hypothesis. 

[dramafreezone]

37 minutes ago, normal person said:

 

I'm not sure I follow you. Someone's aspirations are incongruous to what they're actually able to execute. Wanting to have x, y, and z isn't the same as actually attaining it. I agree with you, people should aspire to what they really want, if that's what they want to do with their time. But should all those people be rewarded just for wanting something? The winner gets the prize, not simply the participant. If you want to be a man that the models desire, that's fine. But until you are, the argument could be made that they're out of your league. You can change things, sure. That's within your power. Be a man they consider and desire, then you're in their league. All it is is a way of describing the landscape. Look up the matching hypothesis. 

Yeah we've been around and around on this.  He thinks wanting it is enough. 

He wants to get into Harvard but when we've told him he has to have excellent grades to get in.  Then he says how unfair that is and he's not going to get good grades just to get in.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, BaileyB said:

No, but it could lead to other things that would. For example, my partner works with computers. I could not tell you what he does - but I know that he owned his own business at one point. Now, he is a teacher. I know where he studied. I know what he likes and dislikes about his job. I know what his plans are for retirement. Do you see what I’m saying.I know that he’s hard working. I know that he values education. I know that he’s not afraid to take a risk. I know that he enjoys the summer holiday. I know lots about him from our discussion about his job. If you are curious about someone, you can learn more about that person from a discussion about their job, their family, and what they do for their spare time. All of the above, I learned on our first few dates. 

 

Again, if you ask me what I do in my spare time, I may say... “I don’t know, read.” If you ask me what kind of reading I like to do, and whether I’ve ever been in a book club, or if I have any recommendations, or tell me that you prefer movies... segway to a discussion about books that were made into movies and what your favourite movies are... then you have a good conversation.

I agree with you entirely here and this is what I try and do but short answers with little detail can make this challenging at times! I get people are nervous so I do not ignore that fact but sometimes its very difficult to get this conversation going backward and forward but having said that I will add this post to the many I think about when I actually try to date and I am sitting on a date, whenever that might be, thanks for the insight.

 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

You exact situation (and virginity) proves dating leagues exist...

You want to date/have sex with a hottie/model, and how has that worked out for you??

This is just basic logic.  Call it dating league... punching above your weight or whatever you want.  You are an average guy and you will never be able to date/have sex with a model.  Learn some game/skillz and maybe you can date an average woman.

I dated many women over my 30+ years of active dating, anytime I tried to date above my league, I had to spend a lot more money entertaining the woman and (in the end) they all left me for a guy with bigger wallet.

That is just the reality of life, or in simpler terms "Natural Selection".

 

 

That has zero appeal to me whatsoever. If I do not find the person attractive then I do not see any point in dating at all. Yes, you can say average is attractive but its difficult to define what exactly average is, my average your average and the guy walking down the road average is very different. 

When I think of average I immediately think of many of the people I have been out with and found zero attraction to. 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Unfortunately  we can aspire to anything we want but there comes a time when we have to accept it is never going to happen.
We are never going to climb Mt. Everest, never going to be POTUS, never going to be a professional opera singer, never going to buy a tropical isle...
Yes you proved everyone wrong by being more successful in life than predicted but that doesn't mean a lot if you then decide to aspire to totally impossible goals.

Leagues whether you like it or not exist. They are a fact of life.
If you do not have what it takes to attract a woman out of your league, you are going to have to accept it and aspire to something else.
We can control what we think, how we act, but we cannot control other people.
Any highly desirable woman will be well aware she is way out of your league, she is thus NOT going to choose you anyway. 
NO she will try and find someone who is in her league...

Leagues do not matter quite so much in ordinary lives as people are usually well aware of where they lie in the League stakes.
They date accordingly. Willing men find willing women, willing women find willing men within their leagues.
You are extraordinary in that you refuse to believe where you stand in the dating stakes, despite all your failures.
You still think some wonderful top tier woman will forget about who she COULD date, who she COULD aspire to, and instead preferentially choose you... 

Ok, its odd because I spend a lot of time around the supposed top tier men and you know what most of the time there is nothing remarkable about them at all, nothing whatsoever, people put these guys on a different level when they really are not. This is what I have been saying all the time, I am quite happy to try compete with them because as you and others have told me looks and money do not make any difference at all, its about connection, flirting, seduction so if I can do those things then why cant I compete?

Its the same as women, the great looking ones are not inherently different, they do carry more confidence than someone who is miserable but guess what plenty of attractive people are miserable anyway.

If I have to go out and limit myself to the people I do not find attractive then there is frankly no point even attempting to date. No my belief is quite simple that maybe just one day the things I am good at, the assets I do have will actually matter to someone I like, that is my belief and I'd rather believe that than lie down next to someone I do not find attractive and who does not wow me in some way or other.

Yes I can work to improve the things I am not good at, that is true. If nothing works, well at least I have vicariously seen a very different side of life so there is a loss there but not a big one, I think if I did not live between these two different worlds, I had not met so many dynamic, attractive, supposedly top tier people my view might be different.

I once went on a date with an au pair, she was blond, tall, slim, lets say average. I actually liked her quite a lot, despite her very child like personality, of all the dates I have had she stands out as the average but also very nice, the fact a friend of mine had wanted to date her for years and found out I went out with her and then talked a load of bs about me to her, perhaps this is why I also remember this well.

 

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok, its odd because I spend a lot of time around the supposed top tier men and you know what most of the time there is nothing remarkable about them at all, nothing whatsoever, people put these guys on a different level when they really are not. This is what I have been saying all the time, I am quite happy to try compete with them because as you and others have told me looks and money do not make any difference at all, its about connection, flirting, seduction so if I can do those things then why cant I compete?

Nobody has said that looks and money don't make any difference at all.  What we say is that it's not everything.  Sure, a guy who lives in his basement, has no social skills and doesn't work will of course fail at romance.    But a guy who's on a school teacher salary, with average looks but who dresses fashionably and has good social and romantic skills won't have any problem at all.  

Yes, you are right that it's about connection, flirting, seduction.  But you've repeatedly told us that you can't do those things, and this is why you aren't competitive. 

[elaine567]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

its about connection, flirting, seduction so if I can do those things then why cant I compete?

Because these are the very things you cannot do and seem so reluctant to learn...

Looks and money whilst unimportant to some women, top tier women are more likely to expect looks and money.
Their options will include guys with charm, personality, looks and money as well as the ability to connect, flirt and seduce...
Why would they "settle" for less?

[basil67]

Also, a rule of thumb is that women's expectation of money would vary according their socio economic background.   For example, I'm the daughter of a hard working blue collar dad, and a stay at home mum.  Went to a co-ed state school.   This means that I grew up financially secure with all my needs met, but without money to spare for frivolous things.   So for me, this would probably be my bottom line when it comes to money.  

Had I been born to wealthy parents and sent to an exclusive school, I'd probably want a guy with the type of money and social connections to continue with the life I was raised with.  

Had I been raised in a low socio economic background, this is probably what I'd accept too.

Now, some will chime in about the women wanting to "marry up" but few wealthy guys are going to go for a woman who doesn't have the skill set and background to survive high society. 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

N

Yes, you are right that it's about connection, flirting, seduction.  But you've repeatedly told us that you can't do those things, and this is why you aren't competitive. 

Which would then make no difference whether the lady was a model of an admin clerk, neither would date me.

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

she was blond, tall, slim, lets say average

Not average.
Average height is ~5'3 and average BMI is 27 (ie overweight) for women in South Africa.
So she is far from average.
In fact "Almost 70% of South African women are either overweight or obese" Here

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Now, some will chime in about the women wanting to "marry up" but few wealthy guys are going to go for a woman who doesn't have the skill set and background to survive high society. 

 

Thank you because I agree with this and this is another reason I am picky, someone who cannot fit into both the worlds I live in will not work and it does not matter what she looks like.

[ZA Dater]

Just now, elaine567 said:

Not average.
Average height is ~5'3 and average BMI is 27 (ie overweight) for women in South Africa.
So she is far from average.
In fact "Almost 70% of South African women are either overweight or obese" Here

Than you once again for supporting yet another point I was making, to everyone who tells me to date average would YOU date that average? Lets be honest here, I am brutally honest so lets dispense with the PC and actually be honest, how many of you would date that average?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

Of course you reject the idea of leagues, because you refuse to accept the reality that the ladies you like are currently way out of your league. The fact is, you would have to put serious work in just to get with average women. Work that you seem completely unwilling to do. You seem to think that all these ladies should just date you because....reasons. 

Please, share the reasons why these beautiful models should date you. What do you offer them that they actually want? 

I will give you a few good reasons why because unlike so many of the supposed top tier men I would not throw them away when something better arrived or cheat on them because well I can. Maybe I do not indicate this properly here but I do most things contrary to how others do, in a world of use and take advantage of, I do not walk along that road and that applies to business too. The core things about me are honesty, generosity, caring and taking an interest. Yes I might be terrible at flirting and terrible at seduction but I am very loyal but then I suppose so is a dog.

The reason some should date me is also the reason nobody wants to, I see things too alternatively, I walk my own path and I am not particularly swayed by the need to conform. Admittedly the good things about me make me far better suited a friend than a romantic prospect because lets face it based on the above that is a hopeless idea anyway but an idea nonetheless. 

I look at this most recent experience, that guy was actually not better than me, more shy and awkward socially than I am, more reserved than I am but the fact of the matter is more resourceful than I am,  that was the primary loss there. 

People value mostly the same thing so unless I acquire some of those thing I will never have dating value.

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Which would then make no difference whether the lady was a model of an admin clerk, neither would date me.

Bingo! Which has been proven time and time again.
You get absolutely nowhere with women in a dating sense.
You HAVE to be able to connect, flirt and seduce, it is not an optional extra. 
Other wise even the most "undesirable" woman will cut you dead and friendzone you.
At the moment your aspiration should be about getting ANY woman to want to date you.

[basil67]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thank you because I agree with this and this is another reason I am picky, someone who cannot fit into both the worlds I live in will not work and it does not matter what she looks like.

If you're in a high society world, then wouldn't you also have the money required to give them the standard of living they are used to? 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Bingo! Which has been proven time and time again.
You get absolutely nowhere with women in a dating sense.
You HAVE to be able to connect, flirt and seduce, it is not an optional extra. 
Other wise even the most "undesirable" woman will cut you dead and friendzone you.
At the moment your aspiration should be about getting ANY woman to want to date you.

You tell me this

1: Friendzone someone who ticks most of the attraction/intellectual boxes

2: Date someone who does neither of those things

Which one are you picking because those are the choices you have given.

Last I checked I had 52 tinder matches of "average" women, none interest me, it would be possible to go on coffee dates with all 52 of them but I would just be wasting my time 52 times.

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I look at this most recent experience, that guy was actually not better than me, more shy and awkward socially than I am, more reserved than I am but the fact of the matter is more resourceful than I am,  that was the primary loss there. 

You also said he was better looking with  a pile of money... and I guess his connection and flirting skills were on point...
You also thought you could beat him in public debate in front of everyone, but that made you look bad and him look good actually...