Coffee Date

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

We can keep discussing all the ins and outs of women.
What women want, what women don't want, who women are attracted to, who women are not attracted to.
The problem here is however NOT with women.

The problem here is ZA Dater and his inability to signal romantic interest.
He can't flirt to begin with, he doesn't/won't touch women in a "romantic" way, he has never had a proper kiss (he tried once and is "never" doing it again). 
He adopts the platonic friend role as he is incapable of doing anything else...

He distracts attention away from this with long monologues/dialogues about "dating".
But he is not actually "dating", he is merely "hanging out" with women he meets on OLD and IRL.

People compute that " lack of experience" means he can't satisfy a woman, or he is somehow lacking in the sexual department. 
They don't really realise that  "lack of experience" means he is totally incapable of taking "friendship" into the "romantic"/physical realm.
A) he doesn't know how to
B) he is scared to even try.

Correct because when I did try to date it was just a disaster. Yes, I adopt that approach because it brings me the greatest benefit and I sort of know what I am doing and the type of person is one I find more attractive than the sort of person I find on OLD.

 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, enigma32 said:

I've been gone for a while, I come back, and poor Za Dater still doin his thing. Gonna drop some truths on ya buddy, so buckle up.

The truth is, there are definitely leagues. It's a thing. Occasionally, because of luck or some other blessing, someone can bat outside their league but that is the exception, not the norm. The reason you aren't finding any success is because every single last one of the women you are trying to get with is just plain out of your league. I had more relationship experience than you when I was 15 years old. What do you think some attractive adult female with life exerience is going to think of you when she hears you have never had a GF? How old are you, man? Have you even hooked up with someone before? 

Basically, you are an adult male, trying to date actual models who likely have worlds of experience and you are waving so many red flags in their face with your lack of experience and lack of ability or even desire to close the deal with anyone. You have to compete with the kind of guys these ladies are used to dating and as you are, you simply cannot compete. It's a harsh reality but it's reality. The weird thing is, this ia a reality that every other red blooded male in the world has been able to happily accept. We make the most of it. Sure, every dude would love to hook up with super hot models every day, but most of us can't and we are happy with our pretty, girl next door types. 

What you need to do is, do yourself a favor and try to figure out what fuels this obsession of yours. Why are you here arguing with people about your dating experiences? You keep going round and round but you've been given the simple answer many times and you won't accept it. So, why? Why are you so obsessed with trying to date women that won't give you the time of day? Why are so obsessed with it that you feel compelled to log online here and argue with people about it? Do you seriously think models are the ladies with depth? 

I'm not asking you why because I want to know the answer. I don't care. I think you need to figure these things out for yourself. I've known plenty of ugly, messed up people that found a relationship, so why can't you? 

Part of the answer to this is the fact I rationalize every single thing, I do not allow myself to feel too many emotions and hooking as lovely as it might be is something I have just accepted I am unlikely to get right, I tried for many years and never go anywhere with it, I considered the commercial route a few times but I do not want to do that. I just learnt I am not attractive to people in that way, I might be attractive as someone who can help them with their tax or business but I wont be the guy they want to take home. I can choose to feel bad about or just accept it. I felt bad about it for many years, no more.

How many guys are REALLY happy to hook up with people they do not find attractive, I certainly would not be. If this was so perfect then the commercial option would not exist at all.

My life would be wholly miserable if I bought into your leagues comment, my guess is you at least find mutual attraction.

[elaine567]

38 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My life would be wholly miserable if I bought into your leagues comment, my guess is you at least find mutual attraction.

Be sensible. You are never going to find mutual attraction if you attractio is only focussed on the 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure, they found a relationship but nobody can answer or probably wont admit, how many of them are REALLY happy with settling?

This fear of settling is a weird phenomenon that’s apparently common with the “always singles”. Remember that the vast majority of adults are in relationships and not many people think they settled.

Settling is accepting less than you can get, not less than you want. And you’ve fully admitted you can’t get what you want. So dating what you can get wouldn’t be settling. It would just be normal. The abnormal part for you is literally only being attracted to women you can’t get. 

[Happy Lemming]

5 hours ago, Punterxx said:

He's posted a number of times he is a virgin so the answer is a big fat zero.

 

I wasn't sure...  I've read about so many different individuals on Loveshack that I forget who has or hasn't been sexually active.

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

None.

Are you OK with this??

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

This fear of settling is a weird phenomenon that’s apparently common with the “always singles”. Remember that the vast majority of adults are in relationships and not many people think they settled.

Settling is accepting less than you can get, not less than you want. And you’ve fully admitted you can’t get what you want. So dating what you can get wouldn’t be settling. It would just be normal. The abnormal part for you is literally only being attracted to women you can’t get. 

Not the way I look at it. I'd rather always aspire to something I want than settling for something I do not want. The key is how many people wake up with the "well I wish I had done better" What I can get is not what I want so dating those people is waste of my and their time. What I am going to try and do is get more of what I like more of the time, I could not care if they don't find me attractive, time spent is a compromise I am prepared to make. As has been pointed out to me I am too far down the inexperienced road to get any experience so I if take that want away I can settle for the odd friend here and there some of the time and get most of what I like.

[Weezy1973]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

The key is how many people wake up with the "well I wish I had done better" 

What do you mean by better? While there are surely a lot of people unhappy in their relationship, I’m not sure how many are looking for “better”. They could be looking for more compatible. Is more compatible what you mean by better? 
 

There are a few that are clueless about relationships who see their partner as a status symbol. Willing to trade in their current wife for a younger, prettier model, or will leave their husband for a richer, more powerful man, but those people are rare.

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Are you OK with this??

It is what it is. Would it be nice to be desired, sure but not if its by someone I do not find attractive. I have had opportunities to have sex before, the drunk date I had, morally that was not what I want, the person who invited me home with her, her bf was travelling, morally that does not interest me either and she was not really that attractive to me.

I just accept I am viewed as damaged goods, which might be true but that does not impact my ability to be the helpful, kind and generous. Guys chase sex, I know women do not desire me like that but they do like someone who is there, who can listen, can offer advice, can support, can provide perspective, the guy who will never let them down. That guy is me and I expect nothing from them barring some degree of friendliness. 

At the end of the day I get to live vicariously through others, guys I know date amazing people, not just great looking but genuinely interesting people who offer up a lot of interesting perspective but I guess as someone said we cant all have that and again I cant have that then I cant reconcile to what I can have because once you met people you really like then those who are so so just do not have the same appeal.

I know people look at me as the virgin dateless guy,  I know they laugh behind my back, some took me a strip club once, other suggested paying for it, some tried to set me up with people themselves would not be interested in. 

 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

What do you mean by better? While there are surely a lot of people unhappy in their relationship, I’m not sure how many are looking for “better”. They could be looking for more compatible. Is more compatible what you mean by better? 
 

There are a few that are clueless about relationships who see their partner as a status symbol. Willing to trade in their current wife for a younger, prettier model, or will leave their husband for a richer, more powerful man, but those people are rare.

Not as rare you might think.....

Yes, more compatible that is what I mean. I cannot overstate how much importance I put on this, its absolutely vital for me.

[Weezy1973]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not as rare you might think.....

Yes, more compatible that is what I mean. I cannot overstate how much importance I put on this, its absolutely vital for me.

Then say compatible, not better. Our inner monologue is important. 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not think being slim and athletic is a particularly high bar looks wise, ok a pretty face might be pushing my luck. 

K is overweight and you’re attracted to her. You can stop saying slim and athletic now. How about just someone you’re attracted to? Full stop. No parameters.

[ClearEyes-FullHeart]

I’ve never commented in these threads but have read many of them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a diff outcome, etc. etc.

I am probably the most unlikely person to say this but I think you should go the commercial route - spend top dollar to learn about sex and physical intimacy from a beautiful person that meets your bar (maybe a sugar daddy set up) to at least break the fear and logjam.  Not sure if it’s legal in SA (commercial) if not I guess opt for a diff set up that is legal.

You only have upside - you will actually experience sex, and maybe that alone will change the dynamic as you date after because your base of knowledge, confidence etc will change. And don’t just do it one time via commercial but actually learn and explore. 

I know you have already rejected this idea and you will repeat that but what do you have to lose? Obv. use protection etc etc.

 

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, ClearEyes-FullHeart said:

I’ve never commented in these threads but have read many of them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a diff outcome, etc. etc.

I am probably the most unlikely person to say this but I think you should go the commercial route - spend top dollar to learn about sex and physical intimacy from a beautiful person that meets your bar (maybe a sugar daddy set up) to at least break the fear and logjam.  Not sure if it’s legal in SA (commercial) if not I guess opt for a diff set up that is legal.

You only have upside - you will actually experience sex, and maybe that alone will change the dynamic as you date after because your base of knowledge, confidence etc will change. And don’t just do it one time via commercial but actually learn and explore. 

I know you have already rejected this idea and you will repeat that but what do you have to lose? Obv. use protection etc etc.

 

Its just not something I like the idea of, I have tried the non intimate arrangement idea but its so fake it has no appeal to me at all and its hard to see how doing that will suddenly make me more attractive. I am working on doing something differently in terms of how I approach things. 

My approach has never been static I do try change it up, getting rid of OLD was a good start. In my mind I have pretty much accepted no intimate relationship is possible based on those who rarely find me attractive so unless I can magically become more attractive, well.

[ZA Dater]

49 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Then say compatible, not better. Our inner monologue is important. 

 

K is overweight and you’re attracted to her. You can stop saying slim and athletic now. How about just someone you’re attracted to? Full stop. No parameters.

Does not mean I want to sleep with K....that's the difference.

[elaine567]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Does not mean I want to sleep with K....that's the difference.

OK so why is she usually put into the mix?
She is a friend/work colleague that has a bf, a woman that you get along with.
Now you say you have no romantic interest in her, so what is her relevance? 

[ClearEyes-FullHeart]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its just not something I like the idea of, I have tried the non intimate arrangement idea but its so fake it has no appeal to me at all and its hard to see how doing that will suddenly make me more attractive. I am working on doing something differently in terms of how I approach things. 

I do understand but it’s a means to an end..what about an erotic massage? You need to get physical and think of it as therapy or a workout. It is not a relationship but can it be a springboard to getting one?

What about a sex therapist? Is going to the doctor “fake”, is taking a TRX or CrossFit class “fake”?

You do not have to settle for never experiencing this part of the human condition. I just don’t see what you have to lose, or focus only on finding another virgin to date. That may be hard given your requirements.  I just think if you get physical and break this dynamic it may enable you to get where you want. 

[elaine567]

Commercial solutions can be great for guys who are primarily motivated by sex. They get the experience and then can be good to go...
The "happy endings" justify the means, but I do not believe by what he has said, ZA Dater is motivated at all by sex.
He is looking for mutual attraction and validation and neither will be satisfied by a person who is being paid to be there.

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It is what it is.

 

OK... but keep in mind that as the male body ages, the testosterone level naturally decreases. At some point, your body will not want to have sex or have the ability to have sex. 

If you are OK with missing out on the experience of having sexual intercourse with a woman, so be it.

Are you 100% sure that you are OK with your decision not to pursue this experience/basic human need??

[BeanCounter]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It is what it is. Would it be nice to be desired, sure but not if its by someone I do not find attractive. I have had opportunities to have sex before, the drunk date I had, morally that was not what I want, the person who invited me home with her, her bf was travelling, morally that does not interest me either and she was not really that attractive to me.

I just accept I am viewed as damaged goods, which might be true but that does not impact my ability to be the helpful, kind and generous. Guys chase sex, I know women do not desire me like that but they do like someone who is there, who can listen, can offer advice, can support, can provide perspective, the guy who will never let them down. That guy is me and I expect nothing from them barring some degree of friendliness. 

At the end of the day I get to live vicariously through others, guys I know date amazing people, not just great looking but genuinely interesting people who offer up a lot of interesting perspective but I guess as someone said we cant all have that and again I cant have that then I cant reconcile to what I can have because once you met people you really like then those who are so so just do not have the same appeal.

I know people look at me as the virgin dateless guy,  I know they laugh behind my back, some took me a strip club once, other suggested paying for it, some tried to set me up with people themselves would not be interested in. 

 

Both of those options are terrible, and you were right to not pursue them.

I'm sure you can find someone you are at least mildly attracted to, mildly interested in, that is available and would want to have consensual sex with you.

There is nothing wrong with not having sex if it is what you want to do, but from everything you say it seems like you're desperate to experience it, but at the same time you put women to such high unreachable standards that it'll never happen to you. Accepting that everyone has flaws and just finding someone you're at least somewhat, if not perfectly, compatible with and going for it is going to result in a much happier life with a lot less self-doubt.

[ClearEyes-FullHeart]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Commercial solutions can be great for guys who are primarily motivated by sex. They get the experience and then can be good to go...
The "happy endings" justify the means, but I do not believe by what he has said, ZA Dater is motivated at all by sex.
He is looking for mutual attraction and validation and neither will be satisfied by a person who is being paid to be there.

Yes I totally realize that but to one of your other posts he can’t kiss and doesn’t know how to advance from platonic to romantic. I am theorizing that developing some physical chops may help he be able to take a coffee date into a romantic way, when there is mutual attraction and all that jazz.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

OK so why is she usually put into the mix?
She is a friend/work colleague that has a bf, a woman that you get along with.
Now you say you have no romantic interest in her, so what is her relevance? 

She goes into the mix because I like spending time with her. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, BeanCounter said:

Both of those options are terrible, and you were right to not pursue them.

I'm sure you can find someone you are at least mildly attracted to, mildly interested in, that is available and would want to have consensual sex with you.

There is nothing wrong with not having sex if it is what you want to do, but from everything you say it seems like you're desperate to experience it, but at the same time you put women to such high unreachable standards that it'll never happen to you. Accepting that everyone has flaws and just finding someone you're at least somewhat, if not perfectly, compatible with and going for it is going to result in a much happier life with a lot less self-doubt.

I look at this a different way, I cant seemingly choose who I want to date so am I really entitled to expect sex from anyone? To back track I always wondered what it would be like to spend an extended amount of time with someone I do find attractive and I accomplished that and felt a lot better after it. I really do not think sex will suddenly make me any more attractive to people and I cant see it as a fix all, sure I'd like to have sex but I'd also like to go on holiday with someone, I'd like to walk on the beach with someone watching the sunset, I'd like to share some of my favourite places with someone, I'd like to share the things I am passionate about in life with someone. I got to do a lot of those things with someone who has become a friend. Id like to do them more often. I'd actually like to care.

Unfortunately because of me I am compatible with virtually nobody, the scars of years of rejection are imprinted large on me no matter how hard I try to remove them, I hardly ever meet anyone who is single away from dreaded OLD, I am not into partying and drinking so those places are a no go for me. 

So look at this and well my chances of having sex are pretty much zero.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... but keep in mind that as the male body ages, the testosterone level naturally decreases. At some point, your body will not want to have sex or have the ability to have sex. 

If you are OK with missing out on the experience of having sexual intercourse with a woman, so be it.

Are you 100% sure that you are OK with your decision not to pursue this experience/basic human need??

Unfortunately much about life we do not get to choose, me if I could have ONE thing now it would be to spend more time with the widow and her baby but I do not get to choose. I am not OK about missing out but at the end of the day the very make up of who I am makes me fundamentally unattractive in every single way possible. I have gone through life trying to make a difference in the way I treat people, because I do not find someone attractive does not mean I need to treat them with contempt, I have heard horrible stories how men have treated some women, shamefully that includes the way some people I know cheat on women. I try to be a good person day to day.

You need to understand someone throwing themselves at me is not attractive at all, commercial is unattractive too, I simply want mutual attraction but again that is not really something I get to choose. 

 

[BeanCounter]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Unfortunately much about life we do not get to choose, me if I could have ONE thing now it would be to spend more time with the widow and her baby but I do not get to choose. I am not OK about missing out but at the end of the day the very make up of who I am makes me fundamentally unattractive in every single way possible. I have gone through life trying to make a difference in the way I treat people, because I do not find someone attractive does not mean I need to treat them with contempt, I have heard horrible stories how men have treated some women, shamefully that includes the way some people I know cheat on women. I try to be a good person day to day.

You need to understand someone throwing themselves at me is not attractive at all, commercial is unattractive too, I simply want mutual attraction but again that is not really something I get to choose. 

 

I mean, it's something you find by trial and error? Stop setting expectations so high and go on dates and see where it goes. If you go on a date and you don't like the woman, then what have you lost by not seeing her again? It really feels to me like you're just waiting for someone that checks every single one of your boxes AND ALSO is into you, which might exist somewhere, but it's going to result in a lotttt of searching.

You're a good looking dude, I'm sure you can find plenty of first dates.

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, BeanCounter said:

I mean, it's something you find by trial and error? Stop setting expectations so high and go on dates and see where it goes. If you go on a date and you don't like the woman, then what have you lost by not seeing her again? It really feels to me like you're just waiting for someone that checks every single one of your boxes AND ALSO is into you, which might exist somewhere, but it's going to result in a lotttt of searching.

You're a good looking dude, I'm sure you can find plenty of first dates.

I really am not good looking enough based on what I attract on OLD!  I have been doing the trial and error thing for 20 odd years with no greater degree of success. This date was exceptionally rare in that she was attractive to the point where I wondered why on earth she matched with me to begin with. Its not a case of every single box but there are certain important things I do find attractive. All I have done with dating is search and search and search some more but to no avail. 

Again I do not really get to choose who likes me unfortunately.