Coffee Date

[Happy Lemming]

40 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Risk versus reward.

I need to get to the point where I feel the reward outweighs the risk  been.

Can you elaborate??  What risk??  Its not like you are jumping out of an airplane...

If you are talking to a woman, you ask her out and (worst case scenario) she says "Ugh, no way"... so what, she is just one person with one opinion.  Is your skin that thin that any type of rejection throws you into an emotional tail spin??

And if she was a friend and was so offended that she no longer wants to be your friend because you asked her out, then how good a friend could she have been in the first place??

[jspice]

7 hours ago, Punterxx said:

It's amazing how OP has no experience, no knowledge in regards to women, and then continues to ignore all advice from people that have the experience and have been a lot more successful with women.

Because we’re all sheep who conformed. Lied to get dates and settled for ugly-slash-fat people. 
We’re just not as enlightened and principled as he is. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Except he’s not content with this at all. If he were there wouldn’t be these endless threads...

I would actually if I could get more of what I like more often.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Happy Lemming said:

Can you elaborate??  What risk??  Its not like you are jumping out of an airplane...

If you are talking to a woman, you ask her out and (worst case scenario) she says "Ugh, no way"... so what, she is just one person with one opinion.  Is your skin that thin that any type of rejection throws you into an emotional tail spin??

And if she was a friend and was so offended that she no longer wants to be your friend because you asked her out, then how good a friend could she have been in the first place??

Because I know the only option will be rejection so its better to look at the prospects and then decide how much risk I am happy to take on. Sure one person with one opinion but when all you get rejection, trust me you tire of that opinion quickly. I'd rather not ask than get rejected.

Stupid maybe but I know I have zero chance so why take any risk. Friends have zero risk for me, I do not need to worry about the fact I cant escalate, that I am not attractive, that I cant seduce.

My view on friends is largely that for the most part friends just use each other to fill whatever function that needs to be filled. Cynical yes but again I see this often. 

You have no idea how awkward I get when trying to either charm someone or ask them out, I'd rather not go there when there is no prospect of success.

[Happy Lemming]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Because I know the only option will be rejection so its better to look at the prospects and then decide how much risk I am happy to take on. Sure one person with one opinion but when all you get rejection, trust me you tire of that opinion quickly. I'd rather not ask than get rejected.

 

Do you think you are the first guy to get rejected multiple times...  Trust me I've struck out more times than I can remember, but that didn't stop me from coming back up to the batters box.

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You have no idea how awkward I get when trying to either charm someone or ask them out, I'd rather not go there when there is no prospect of success.

Yes I do... Every guy out there was awkward when they were learning how to ask out women.  It takes practice... lots of practice... years of practice.  I didn't hone my craft overnight.  There is no guy out there that woke up one day (as an adult) went out and wasn't awkward trying to ask a woman out.

And how do you know there is "no prospect of success" if you don't try.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Do you think you are the first guy to get rejected multiple times...  Trust me I've struck out more times than I can remember, but that didn't stop me from coming back up to the batters box.

Yes I do... Every guy out there was awkward when they were learning how to ask out women.  It takes practice... lots of practice... years of practice.  I didn't hone my craft overnight.  There is no guy out there that woke up one day (as an adult) went out and wasn't awkward trying to ask a woman out.

And how do you know there is "no prospect of success" if you don't try.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Its ok to be awkward in your 20s, women are less tolerant of late 30's guys who are awkward. I think its normal to be rejected but its not normal to have no success at all and that is the reality.

I have been around long enough to have a fair idea what is gettable and what is not.

[SumGuy]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

...I have a dinner coming up, K is likely to come with me and that makes me smile more, just feels nice to have someone I really like around me, the fact they wont sleep with me, well its not ideal but there is so much GOOD around the whole situation.

I see nothing wrong with that, and a lot right.   If it feels good it feels good.  I don't judge my time spent with someone of the gender I am attracted to by if we have or do not have sex.   There is nothing wrong with the friend-zone in my view as long as one doesn't expect it to change and it doesn't hold you back from seeking what you wish.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

I see nothing wrong with that, and a lot right.   If it feels good it feels good.  I don't judge my time spent with someone of the gender I am attracted to by if we have or do not have sex.   There is nothing wrong with the friend-zone in my view as long as one doesn't expect it to change and it doesn't hold you back from seeking what you wish.

The point being for the most part that is all I really want or should I say the best scenario I can hope for. I'd have been quite happy being friends with this coffee date, yes people on dating sites do not want friends and I get that but when I think what I am reasonably good at, its being the friend not the romancer, simply because I do not know how to do that.

Thing is for me a lot has to feel good about something, with her it was good the first minute I met her and its been good for every single minute after that (all of 4 odd years), likewise with the widow, its just good, I cant tell you why its good but it just is. Its this good I have been looking for, that feeling and I am not finding it on dates, I never find it on dates actually which is why my approach has been with it is. I do think a lot of it is the confidence these people project but its a lot more than just that.

But yes friend zone is friend zone and its actually just a huge dead end but every date I approach from the point of view as friends because I do not know how to implement an alternative approach, which is made worse because I never really have that feeling. For all the very many things "wrong" with me there is also some right which I remind myself of daily. I do wonder if different recent decisions would have yielded different results.

I get the feeling from these two ladies that on some level they do actually care enough about me to be nice to met and that means a heck of a lot actually so what I am saying is the bar is so low actually in terms of success that small things like this do mean a lot, whether this is good or bad I do not know. 

One thing I DO apparently do is show people I do find them attractive because when I am around K and for want of a better word A people rather awkwardly assume we are a couple, which we both laughed off, so maybe I do put out that sort of vibe.

[dramafreezone]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been on sugar dates before and they are all on a per hour basis and I cannot say I found them very interesting at all because everything was an act and I always wondered what rubbish story I was being sold, then I thought as to why someone would do this, then I thought how many people has she met like this, then I thought is she on narcotics and and and when the pros and cons are tabulated there are more cons than pro's for me. 

I do believe in some respects is all about wealth and money but I am not paying that person per hour to sit with me and this fact alone means its never going to be the same as someone genuinely finding me attractive. 

Super built, again, why, it does not serve a purpose, my ugly face and everything else bad remains so. I work out to feel good about me not in the hope someone may find me attractive.

The best way to fix me is a change of thinking brought on by a change of experience, that is what I am really looking for.

Why would it mean more to you if women liked you for your looks?  

If you had chisled good looks like (insert any masculine hearthrob here), what would that illuminate about who you are as a person?  What did any attractive person do to have their facial features appear the way that they do?  Sure people can get haircuts and use makeup but they were born with that.

Attractive people are used just like people with wealth.  Actually a frequently expressed insecurity of the extremely attractive is that people only like them for their looks.  In any event, I think you overrate looks and underrate what role status and social proof play in attraction.  If Brad Pitt worked at a gas station you think he'd still be considered a sex symbol?  I'd much rather have status than looks, and the thing is you can acquire status if you try hard enough.

There have been women that went out with men because of their wealth and then fell in love.  Conversely there are women that find some extremely attractive men to be extremely dull as people, and everything in between.  I quite frankly don't give two dangs why a woman finds me attractive.  Am I getting what I want out of the deal? 

Also, no one can fall in love with a person's looks, or money, or whatever attracts them to each otheer, those only afford you an opportunity.  Love can develop if the right two people come into proximity with each other, it's only depends on chemistry and time.  Once she's in love, she doesn't see anyone else, you're the hottest guy in the world to her.

Edited May 25, 2021 by dramafreezone

[dramafreezone]

I'm on one right now, another thing @ZA Dater why you struggle...

When you can only like pretty women, they can sense it and they don't like it.  They've dated enough men to know when someone is only interested in their appearance, and when someone actually does value them more than that. 

The man that they appreciate above all others is the one that's not impressed or intimidated by their beauty.  See how that works?  That man demands more of her, he demands character, kindness, agreeableness, whatever he values.  He has standards beyond her looks. 

You can fake it and say you do too, but your submissiveness to women says otherwise, these women have done nothing but be pretty and you show deference to them, all on looks.  They don't trust or respect it.

Edited May 25, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Happy Lemming]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Its ok to be awkward in your 20s, women are less tolerant of late 30's guys who are awkward.

 

If we accept your premise (which I do not), but for the sake of continuing the discussion, I'll accept that women are more tolerant of a male in his 20's being awkward vs. a male in his 30's.  So won't they be even less tolerant of a male in his 40's who is awkward?? 

Time is going to continue.  Your years on this earth will click by one after another one, you will continue to get older, by delaying this learning curve are you not making the situation worse??  The sooner you develop this skill; (asking women out without being awkward) the better...

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been around long enough to have a fair idea what is gettable and what is not.

You may think you have a fair idea what you can date and what you can't, but with minimal experience asking women out and dating... you don't know.

Look... I've even surprised myself by some of the women I've been able to date.  I've dated some real hotties and I've dated some really nice "Plain Jane" women who were quite fun and a joy to be around.

[basil67]

On the topic of being awkward post 23yo, the problem is that you're looking for women who, among other things, have high level social skills.  However, a woman with high level social skills wants the same in a man.  If you were OK with a woman who was a bit awkward, you'd likely find she was far more accepting of your awkwardness.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Why would it mean more to you if women liked you for your looks?  

If you had chisled good looks like (insert any masculine hearthrob here), what would that illuminate about who you are as a person?  What did any attractive person do to have their facial features appear the way that they do?  Sure people can get haircuts and use makeup but they were born with that.

Attractive people are used just like people with wealth.  Actually a frequently expressed insecurity of the extremely attractive is that people only like them for their looks.  In any event, I think you overrate looks and underrate what role status and social proof play in attraction.  If Brad Pitt worked at a gas station you think he'd still be considered a sex symbol?  I'd much rather have status than looks, and the thing is you can acquire status if you try hard enough.

There have been women that went out with men because of their wealth and then fell in love.  Conversely there are women that find some extremely attractive men to be extremely dull as people, and everything in between.  I quite frankly don't give two dangs why a woman finds me attractive.  Am I getting what I want out of the deal? 

Also, no one can fall in love with a person's looks, or money, or whatever attracts them to each otheer, those only afford you an opportunity.  Love can develop if the right two people come into proximity with each other, it's only depends on chemistry and time.  Once she's in love, she doesn't see anyone else, you're the hottest guy in the world to her.

In short it would be nice to be like by someone I like, why they like me is immaterial to me. I do not believe in using people which is why I wont lead someone on in order to get experience, one thing dating has taught me is to be kinder to people, be more aware of how people feel and where possible try not to hurt those feelings, I am very aware of this.

Sure, a lot of these models I have met do get used but to be fair they allow this to happen. 

Status, trust me this does not help as much as you would think, as someone who lives in that world from time to time, you cannot simply arrive with status, they tend to want more than that, there needs to be a combination of attractive features.

I disagree people seem to fall in love with mostly tangible things at least based on what I have seen around me and the losses I have had when trying to compete against this very thing.

 

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

I'm on one right now, another thing @ZA Dater why you struggle...

When you can only like pretty women, they can sense it and they don't like it.  They've dated enough men to know when someone is only interested in their appearance, and when someone actually does value them more than that. 

The man that they appreciate above all others is the one that's not impressed or intimidated by their beauty.  See how that works?  That man demands more of her, he demands character, kindness, agreeableness, whatever he values.  He has standards beyond her looks. 

You can fake it and say you do too, but your submissiveness to women says otherwise, these women have done nothing but be pretty and you show deference to them, all on looks.  They don't trust or respect it.

Here you are wrong, I look at the person overall, K is overweight and not particularly good looking but she has incredible intellect and conversational ability, she is on the top of her game in that respect, which keeps me captivated because I need to be the best version to keep up with this, she calls me out when she thinks I am being dumb and I respect her for that.

My standard are very high, probably too high but I know there are people who have these qualities and frankly I am not prepared to accept any less than that. Its very hard to impress me based on look alone which makes sense when you consider my inexperience at anything to do with intimacy.

I consider myself very fortunate to have met the people I have because they generally further illustrate how flawed OLD is. I'd rather meet someone exceptional for 5 minutes than 5 hours trying to convince myself I like the person.

Its often said a lady will decide within 5 minutes if she will sleep with you and I believe that is true.

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

If we accept your premise (which I do not), but for the sake of continuing the discussion, I'll accept that women are more tolerant of a male in his 20's being awkward vs. a male in his 30's.  So won't they be even less tolerant of a male in his 40's who is awkward?? 

Time is going to continue.  Your years on this earth will click by one after another one, you will continue to get older, by delaying this learning curve are you not making the situation worse??  The sooner you develop this skill; (asking women out without being awkward) the better...

You may think you have a fair idea what you can date and what you can't, but with minimal experience asking women out and dating... you don't know.

Look... I've even surprised myself by some of the women I've been able to date.  I've dated some real hotties and I've dated some really nice "Plain Jane" women who were quite fun and a joy to be around.

That the impossible challenge I face where the odds of success are even lower, hence why I do not expect any success. Fact is there is nobody for me to ask out, I do not meet anyone who is remotely gettable and I do not really meet people full stop. I got lectured about this the other day and my response as it is here "where am I supposed to meet these people" for which there was no answer. 

My knowing comes from OLD, the blond who did not match me on OLD is not going to be any more receptive to me in person, I am fairly sure of that. If it was a case of me attracting people I wanted to on OLD I might be inclined to try the random lady at the book shop but I know I have no chance with that sort of person, even less so when I do not know how to ask someone out barring "do you want to grab coffee" 

For all my dreaming I do live on planet earth and the reality is the people who will be receptive to me are not ones who interest me at all, if through some luck I get the odd date like this one its a win, I'll enjoy the hour or so and then return to reality.

[SumGuy]

19 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

...Thing is for me a lot has to feel good about something, with her it was good the first minute I met her and its been good for every single minute after that (all of 4 odd years), likewise with the widow, its just good, I cant tell you why its good but it just is. Its this good I have been looking for, that feeling and I am not finding it on dates, I never find it on dates actually which is why my approach has been with it is. ...

That is all good.

Quote

But yes friend zone is friend zone and its actually just a huge dead end ...

It is only a dead end if the goal is other than friendship.   Friendship is valuable in and of itself.  

Quote

 

I get the feeling from these two ladies that on some level they do actually care enough about me to be nice to met and that means a heck of a lot actually so what I am saying is the bar is so low actually in terms of success that small things like this do mean a lot, whether this is good or bad I do not know. 

One thing I DO apparently do is show people I do find them attractive because when I am around K and for want of a better word A people rather awkwardly assume we are a couple, which we both laughed off, so maybe I do put out that sort of vibe.

 

Do not underestimate these relationships.  People can very much care about each other in a platonic way.

If women think you are a couple that is very good, it increases your attraction because if another attractive woman likes you, even if just as a friend, it means you are likely not a creep, etc. and have something going.   At least that is my experience. 

Women friends are the best, they may one day set you up with someone or you can one day confide in them.  They after all seem to fall in the category of women you want to attract so their advice is worth ten times anything we can give you here.

[Trail Blazer]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:11 PM, Prudence V said:

You do realise that weight is something someone can change, right? So that seems like a pretty superficial reason, to me. Ever seen the film “Shallow Hal”? 

With all due respect, I do not think it's a very sound strategy to get with someone whose weight renders them unattractive but ignore that lack of attraction because someone might lose weight.

Chances are if they're heavy while on the dating market, they're probably not going to lose weight once they land someone.  A heavy woman probably wouldn't be motivated to lose weight after landing a guy because she'd feel he is attracted to her already.

OP has so many issues going on that I'm not going to mention them.  However, in general, if someone possesses physical traits which are undesirable/unattractive, it's best to let them be.  They simply aren't the right person for you.

To put it into perspective, would you date a guy who has body odour?  I mean, he's just one shower away from not smelling bad, right?  That's a lot less effort than exercise and sticking to a good diet to lose weight...

[Happy Lemming]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

My knowing comes from OLD...

 

There in lies your problem.  I really don't put much faith in OLD as a barometer of what you can and can't date.  Personally, I did (briefly) try OLD and found it to be total crap.  I've had much better luck meeting people in "real life" situations.

I think you'll have better luck in "real life" situations, as well (once the pandemic is over and things open up in your area).  Yes, you will go through a learning curve of developing some game/skillz, but you will get there eventually.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question:

You are at a neighborhood function/party.  A woman (about your age, maybe 2-3 years younger) comes up to you and states you look familiar.  It turns out she lives 3 streets over and recognizes you from doing some yard work in your front yard.  This woman is average.  She is brunette, average height, average weight, average build, drives a small white average car, works as an office clerk at a local business. There is nothing remarkable about this woman, she is the quintessential "Plain Jane". After chit-chatting a bit at this party, do you ask her out?? Exchange phone numbers??

[mark clemson]

If it was me, I'd say "sure we can be friends," assume that absolutely nothing will come of that, and leave it at that. Don't ping her or "try" to be her friend, etc. Just leave it.

If she gets lonely one day and looks you up again at a time that happens to be convenient for you, you can take it up at that point as you deem appropriate.

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I look at the person overall, K is overweight and not particularly good looking

Cool. But you seem to have continual disdain and repeated comments about not being interested in a woman that’s overweight. In this thread I believe you even said you’re only interested in women that are slim and athletic. And you continually comment on you lack of desire for single moms, yet the widow was a single mom and you had a lot of interest in her.

Like Ive said your inner monologue matters. Clearly these things aren’t dealbreakers for you if there are other qualities that you find attractive making her attractive to you overall. Having that as your inner monologue, instead of just dismissing them as possibilities would be helpful. 
 

There are two components to mutual attraction. People you’re attracted to and people that are attracted to you. The more you can expand either of these components the more likely you are to have success. You can’t control much about who is attracted to you, but if you would date both overweight women and single moms given the right other factors, maybe remove them from your “never date” list?

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

There in lies your problem.  I really don't put much faith in OLD as a barometer of what you can and can't date.  Personally, I did (briefly) try OLD and found it to be total crap.  I've had much better luck meeting people in "real life" situations.

I think you'll have better luck in "real life" situations, as well (once the pandemic is over and things open up in your area).  Yes, you will go through a learning curve of developing some game/skillz, but you will get there eventually.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question:

You are at a neighborhood function/party.  A woman (about your age, maybe 2-3 years younger) comes up to you and states you look familiar.  It turns out she lives 3 streets over and recognizes you from doing some yard work in your front yard.  This woman is average.  She is brunette, average height, average weight, average build, drives a small white average car, works as an office clerk at a local business. There is nothing remarkable about this woman, she is the quintessential "Plain Jane". After chit-chatting a bit at this party, do you ask her out?? Exchange phone numbers??

I will answer your question quite honestly even though I will get crucified for the answer . I probably would not ask her for her number UNLESS there was something really captivating about her personality in some way or other. I'd have to be pretty wowed to some degree. I'd probably find it quite disturbing she looked at me doing yard work to begin with and actually had some incident like this before and I found the whole interaction quite creepy.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Cool. But you seem to have continual disdain and repeated comments about not being interested in a woman that’s overweight. In this thread I believe you even said you’re only interested in women that are slim and athletic. And you continually comment on you lack of desire for single moms, yet the widow was a single mom and you had a lot of interest in her.

Like Ive said your inner monologue matters. Clearly these things aren’t dealbreakers for you if there are other qualities that you find attractive making her attractive to you overall. Having that as your inner monologue, instead of just dismissing them as possibilities would be helpful. 
 

There are two components to mutual attraction. People you’re attracted to and people that are attracted to you. The more you can expand either of these components the more likely you are to have success. You can’t control much about who is attracted to you, but if you would date both overweight women and single moms given the right other factors, maybe remove them from your “never date” list?

Sure, the single mother has a beautiful personality, she is warm, friendly, makes me smile, laugh, she is physically very attractive, self supporting, interesting to talk to, there is no ex in the picture, confident, positive and has an interesting life story. Sure, find me the equivalent and I will be very interested.

K is baggage free, super motivated at what she does, interesting, very intelligent and worldly, again has an interesting life story and an interesting profession.

Every time I meet someone I like the list of qualities I find attractive grows and the pool of people with those qualities becomes smaller.

I am simply not prepared to compromise on those things because then to me the entire dating idea is pointless. Especially when I can get MOST of what I want from these sort of friendships.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

If it was me, I'd say "sure we can be friends," assume that absolutely nothing will come of that, and leave it at that. Don't ping her or "try" to be her friend, etc. Just leave it.

If she gets lonely one day and looks you up again at a time that happens to be convenient for you, you can take it up at that point as you deem appropriate.

Exactly what I have done. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, SumGuy said:

That is all good.

It is only a dead end if the goal is other than friendship.   Friendship is valuable in and of itself.  

Do not underestimate these relationships.  People can very much care about each other in a platonic way.

If women think you are a couple that is very good, it increases your attraction because if another attractive woman likes you, even if just as a friend, it means you are likely not a creep, etc. and have something going.   At least that is my experience. 

Women friends are the best, they may one day set you up with someone or you can one day confide in them.  They after all seem to fall in the category of women you want to attract so their advice is worth ten times anything we can give you here.

Here is the thing, I get more out of these two ladies than I get from ANY date I have been on. So it becomes a problem of "in what way is dating actually benefiting me"? I'll never be able to date either of them but they are there, both have ring fenced me from their friends so there will never be introductions there so that does not work and I am OK with that, its just indicative of the fact I just do not fit in. Its guys and ladies who think we are a couple, which is quite amusing in itself. 

Making peace with this is not easy and I have to sit down and write down what I am hoping to get out of dating versus what I get out of some good communication during the course of a week. Having no experience bothered me a lot for many years but I find myself caring less and less because these two ladies wont ever give me that experience BUT they actually make me feel like I have some value, there is something good in me that they can see. Yes, it infuriates me I seemingly cannot ever find mutual attraction but maybe I need to just accept that for what it is. Yes I often feel desperately lonely and yes I am missing out a lot in life by not having a partner but I cant really change the way the world works I just need to accept it.

The way I sort of try make up for this is to create contrived experiences, the weekend away with the model was the most contrived yet but also the most enjoyable because I got to share something. I might be wrong but so much premium is put on sex and intimacy that does sharing anything really actually matter? Does enjoying a great sunset of meal count for nothing at all, I can offer someone unique and I think nice experiences but I am not going to go down  this road if the person is not attractive to me.

[SumGuy]

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

... I might be wrong but so much premium is put on sex and intimacy that does sharing anything really actually matter? Does enjoying a great sunset of meal count for nothing at all, I can offer someone unique and I think nice experiences but I am not going to go down  this road if the person is not attractive to me.

Sharing things with someone is intimacy.  Intimacy comes in non-sexual and non-romantic varieties as well.  Sex is the icing on the cake for me, and I do love it don't get me wrong (and apparently spend inordinate amounts of time engaged in it  ) but it would mean little to me without the connection of sharing a meal, sunsets, views on a book, song or movie.

The connection of sharing matters, you don't need sex to make it valuable.  I'd be lying though if said sharing it with a romantic partner wasn't the best.