Are more women content on remaining unattached?

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, Ellener said:

I want to go in the manosphere...

 

I think you need a space suit or something. Let us know how it goes and take lots of pictures to give to NASA on your way back!

[Ruby Slippers]

39 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

That is good to know as "loving dominant" sounded like a BDSM term...not that I'd have a problem with that.

I've never heard that term. I think I made it up, as it's close to what I want, or what I thought I wanted. I suppose I'm a little kinky and have certain fantasies about it. He fulfilled them at times. He had his kinky fantasies, too, and we took turns holding the reins and in some ways that was a lot of fun. We had a pretty great sex life and a lot of fun trying to deliver the fantasy experience for each other.  

But yes, I'm moving past this as well. I've been randomly chatting with men online the past few days, and when anyone even hints about being "dominant," I just roll my eyes and click away.

[Woggle]

9 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Honey, I feel your pain coming right through the screen. 

The thing is, just as people judge a man negatively if he goes out in public with a woman who looks scraggly, people judge a woman negatively for having a dirty, disorganized home. A man pulling his weight around the house supports his woman's peace and happiness in a big way. A good man gets this.

You're right that a man making even minor efforts to help around the house can have a dramatically positive effect. I used to praise my ex to the skies anytime he went above and beyond around the house, in an effort to reinforce it positively. It felt absolutely delightful.

Not so much. I grew up watching my father break his back trying to make my mother happy and the more he tried to please her the more hostile she became. I have seen this situation play out many times with some of the couples I know. Once a woman is in resentment mode for whatever reason breathing will be offensive to her. In my first marriage I could spend the entire week cleaning the house but if I wanted any leisure time on the weekend I was lazy. If I never met my current I probably would have sweared off marriage by this point because from the man's side it seems like a never ending and fruitless effort to stay out of the doghouse. Maybe both men and women are right and if we ever really want fix modern relationships their needs to some constructive dialogue.

[Ruby Slippers]

Sure, there are both men and women who are unappreciative and unfair in life and love.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I think you need a space suit or something. Let us know how it goes and take lots of pictures to give to NASA on your way back!

I'll be guided by @SumGuy humour for Earth-now, but yes, I have been following the growing space-pod movement:

There are currently over 7.6 billion people on earth, but if space becomes a viable place for humans to live, the solar system has enough resources to support 1 trillion humans...1,000 Mozarts and 1,000 Einsteins. Think how incredible and dynamic that civilization will be.

(Jeff Bezos )

Oh and like most big changes @CaliforniaGirl I'm not coming back...

🌏

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

26 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

@CaliforniaGirl I don’t doubt the frustration, anger and resentment, but at the end of the day it absolutely is just a preference of an individual. What else would it be? I’m sure your husbands did pull the bait and switch with you, which isn’t great. But then transferring that to all men, and assuming that is how future relationships are going to be, therefore I’m happy staying single isn’t really logical.

On the other hand, if someone doesn’t trust there own picker, or knows that the kinds of men they’re attracted to aren’t ones that they can be in a relationship with, then yes, I’m sure they would be happier being single.

It's a preference to have a clean house and to take care of the children you have? I'm sorry, I'm really not getting that. CPS would have a different opinion to yours as well, I'm pretty sure.

I notice nobody has a "preference" to eat off dishes they already ate off of yesterday or walk around in stinking clothes. Or to have children walk around in poop diapers for a day or two. I am just not agreeing that all this upkeep is "a preference." Except maybe on the show Horders.

I don't say "all" men do this, pull a bait-and-switch. What I'm saying applies directly to the OP's question: why on earth would some divorced women say they don't want to remarry? The REALITY is that a huge proportion of relationships involve the wife doing much more of the scutwork than the men, *even when both parties work*, including both working full-time. There are stats but I hate to post links because then my posts get held up. However it worked - maybe the woman thought she'd be doing most of the housework but that she'd go to part-time work instead? Or maybe she was raised to think "that's how it has to be" but after decades just got exhausted? Who knows? - this is a real thing, you hear many women saying it (with actual numbers to back up the probability that this was, or became an issue during the marriage) and giving it as one reason they don't necessarily want to be married/living together again, but would be happy to have a relationship. Just not the marriage.

You can disagree with as many details as you'd like, this is reality. However it happened, if the woman felt exhausted and used in her relationship over this issue she may be among those women who are glad to date and have sex after a divorce, but not feel like she just absolutely has to get married. Why would she? She has one less person to clean up after, and at the same time, she can still have sex, love. The things she wants. You say men might rather do "something else" than clean and caretake all the time in addition to working. So might women.  Oh hell yeah. So there you go. It's just one reason. It's not every woman's reason. But it's real, it happens...quite a bit. You DO hear widows say "I'll never marry again," that's always been a thing too and it's not always because it was some great love of the century or something. This is just how things are *right now* as an average. And once again, men have their complaints. This is not woman good/man bad. It was *a question that was asked*...I answered it 100% honestly. 

You say men would rather be doing other things take care of everyone.

After decades of it, so would many women. Or they were never cut out for all that in the first place and now they know. And they may or may not want to have sex/a relationship, etc. anyway and after the divorce, many are self-supporting and absolutely can make that call, and they choose less complicated, more enjoyable; no resentments. It's that simple.  This is not the answer to every single woman who doesn't want to marry again. The OP asked why. This is one potential reason and it's real.

Edited June 17, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

10 minutes ago, Woggle said:

Not so much. I grew up watching my father break his back trying to make my mother happy and the more he tried to please her the more hostile she became. I have seen this situation play out many times with some of the couples I know. Once a woman is in resentment mode for whatever reason breathing will be offensive to her. In my first marriage I could spend the entire week cleaning the house but if I wanted any leisure time on the weekend I was lazy. If I never met my current I probably would have sweared off marriage by this point because from the man's side it seems like a never ending and fruitless effort to stay out of the doghouse. Maybe both men and women are right and if we ever really want fix modern relationships their needs to some constructive dialogue.

And then the man might not want to remarry after divorce. Those would be his reasons.

[Ruby Slippers]

2 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I notice nobody has a "preference" to eat off dishes they already ate off of yesterday or walk around in stinking clothes. Or to have children walk around in poop diapers for a day or two. I am just not agreeing that all this upkeep is "a preference."

Amen.

There was a big new study and series of articles recently about how on average, women still do more of the housework and childcare, even if both are working the same number of hours, no matter who's earning more, no matter what. Young men are doing more than their dads, on average, but not a whole lot more, and women harbor resentment over it.

Housework and childcare within a family are generally unpaid and not respected, nothing that will ever contribute to future earning power, and this won't change. Google how much it costs to get housework and childcare for a year. It's a fortune. 

The worst part isn't the actual work. I have to do pretty much all the same housework when I'm single, or pay somebody to do it. The worst part is feeling unappreciated and taken for granted.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Housework and childcare within a family are generally unpaid

not just within a family, I found recently researching jobs I would love within the nursing homes ( and be good at ) they pay $8 to $12 an hour...then officially try to make onerous conditions so a worker can't easily schedule two jobs?

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Amen.

There was a big new study and series of articles recently about how on average, women still do more of the housework and childcare, even if both are working the same number of hours, no matter who's earning more, no matter what. Young men are doing more than their dads, on average, but not a whole lot more, and women harbor resentment over it.

Housework and childcare within a family are generally unpaid and not respected, nothing that will ever contribute to future earning power, and this won't change. Google how much it costs to get housework and childcare for a year. It's a fortune. 

The worst part isn't the actual work. I have to do pretty much all the same housework when I'm single, or pay somebody to do it. The worst part is feeling unappreciated and taken for granted.

(bolded) This.

This this this this this!

Thissedy thissedy this.

Th to the is.

And over this general disrespect is what makes couples feel separated from one another, and builds resentments. How could it not?

[Ruby Slippers]

8 minutes ago, Ellener said:

not just within a family, I found recently researching jobs I would love within the nursing homes ( and be good at ) they pay $8 to $12 an hour...then officially try to make onerous conditions so a worker can't easily schedule two jobs?

I'm guessing the facility skims off a lot of the money for costs like legal protection, medical equipment and so on. But I think someone like a house cleaner working directly for customers with no middle man taking a big portion can make pretty good money. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

It's a preference to have a clean house and to take care of the children you have?

 

It’s a preference or belief. Again what else would it be? If someone doesn’t want to clean and doesn’t care if their home is clean, that’s on them. Nobody has to stay with someone like that of course. Or if someone thinks childcare is “woman’s work” again, that’s their belief that they hold for whatever reasons (upbringing, culture, friends / influences etc.). And again nobody is saying to stay with people who you don’t share values with.

And also, understandable that people would be hesitant to jump into another marriage after that. But it’s a leap to ascribe those qualities, to all members of a gender. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

11 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

It’s a preference or belief. Again what else would it be? If someone doesn’t want to clean and doesn’t care if their home is clean, that’s on them. Nobody has to stay with someone like that of course. Or if someone thinks childcare is “woman’s work” again, that’s their belief that they hold for whatever reasons (upbringing, culture, friends / influences etc.). And again nobody is saying to stay with people who you don’t share values with.

And also, understandable that people would be hesitant to jump into another marriage after that. But it’s a leap to ascribe those qualities, to all members of a gender. 

And I don't (ascribe these qualities to all members of a gender).

This may be the third (fourth?) time I've said this but I'll go ahead and say it again.

The OP asked why some divorced women may not want to be married again, or for some, involved at all again.

This is one reason and it is a very real reason. I'm defnitely not the first woman to have said it. It can't be minimized. It also isn't the "whole" reason, for every woman, or even part of the reason for some. But for a fair chunk of women, yes, this is it. They've done their work. Now comes Miller Time.

Men may feel the same way, about this or other aspects of being married/taking care of other people. For example, a man may not want to remarry at all, or if he does, he may not want to have more children. Because he's done all that and he doesn't at this point want more of the same responsiblity. He wants to have fewer "have to do" things that often come with first marriages or young marriages and/or children. Somehow, I don't notice seven pages of arguments for that. 

It's just as simple as for some women. BTDT, now want the fun and perks without all the responsibility. It doesn't matter "why" she had those responsibilities, it doesn't matter whether you think she "chose" it, it doesn't matter that apparently for some people, not eating on already-eaten on dishes or wearing stinking clothes is considered "a preference". (???) For the person who's done a huge chunk of certain types of work, if she doesn't have to anymore (or he) and she is getting older (or he) and now just wants some fun v. all the responsibility, then that person does.

In this case the question was specifically about women.

I answered it. From the point of view of quite a few women I know. And even the older generation; somebody pointed out widows saying they wouldn't want to be married again and it obviously not being solely about love/sentimentality.

I'm not sure I want to repeat this for a fifth time so I'll assume you've read this, and that the OP has gotten this one answer out of other potential answers.  You may not agree with it, but please don't minimize it, because it IS big, and it IS a thing.

[CaliforniaGirl]

56 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I'm guessing the facility skims off a lot of the money for costs like legal protection, medical equipment and so on. But I think someone like a house cleaner working directly for customers with no middle man taking a big portion can make pretty good money. 

I think independent cleaning people can make a fair chunk. I had my house cleaned a few years ago for Christmas and it was something like $40/hour for two people, who worked for themselves/not through an agency. It took four hours so they made $160 together. That's $80 for each for a half-day's work. Not big money but not literal chump change either. And because it was cash it's doubtless no taxes were taken out. I provided all the cleaning supplies, that's standard, so they didn't buy those either, including the bigger items like the vacuum cleaner.

But in that case the person is getting something in return for hard work. She's getting money. Wives (or husbands), not so much. So it's not the same feeling at all when someone just lies back and "lets" things get disgusting until you finally get up and do it so your house doesn't get condemned.

[Ruby Slippers]

10 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

For example, a man may not want to remarry at all, or if he does, he may not want to have more children. Because he's done all that and he doesn't at this point want more of the same responsiblity. He wants to have fewer "have to do" things that often come with first marriages or young marriages and/or children. Somehow, I don't notice seven pages of arguments for that. 

And this goes back to the original point - that statistically, women tend to be happier on their own than men. There are many factors, and many variations of relationships out there. But this issue of housework and caretaking seems to be a pretty big factor. 

Men's biggest complaint post-divorce seems to be that she took half the money, at least from what I've seen. I suppose for those women, that probably feels like a whole lot of back pay for unpaid, largely unappreciated work.

[CaliforniaGirl]

14 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

And this goes back to the original point - that statistically, women tend to be happier on their own than men. There are many factors, and many variations of relationships out there. But this issue of housework and caretaking seems to be a pretty big factor. 

Men's biggest complaint post-divorce seems to be that she took half the money, at least from what I've seen. I suppose for those women, that probably feels like a whole lot of back pay for unpaid, largely unappreciated work.

They might...and I don't know whether I agree with that but I do get the resentments that way...I wouldn't strip my husband of his money if we divorced but I do think it can get to that tit-for-tat point, where people resent eachother THAT much. And it's sad because it wouldn't have been that hard to just make things a little more equal. It's weird that some people can be THIS stubborn about refusing to wash a dish. That literally if it's their marriage and being stripped of their assets, tough, they are NOT getting off that couch to put some laundry in and let the wife not feel like she's the mommy of the man who was supposed to be her lover.

[Allupinnit]

Well this goes back to the old adage - do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

It took me a few years to get my H to care about tidiness as much as I do, but he cares about making me happy, so now he starts doing a lot without my prodding.  But it never fails that I notice when something needs to be cleaned before he does.  

You take two people who are set in their ways well past 30 and expect them to change a fundamental habit in a few short months!  @RubySlippers - how would you feel if everything you did was WRONG to him and he dumped you every time you did something incorrectly in his eyes?

I suspect this has a lot more to do with his character than how clean he is.

That being said I do think that men have a harder time being alone.  They come to depend on their wives as their means for social connections; so many men are bad at making new friends and they rely on us to keep up the social calendar.  I think old men tend to me a lot more lonely than old women who are single.  

Also to keep in mind is that they are very simply wired differently than women are.  What you see as blatant disrespect regarding housework he probably just hasn't made a habit of thinking about for YEARS.  I often wonder if women tend to assume the mental load of the household because we are simply wired to be BETTER at it.

[basil67]

21 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Not talking about that. I'm talking about compatibility and alignment in a belief in both staying healthy in order to enjoy a quality of life.

But this thread isn't about those who find compatibility and alignment.  It's about women who can't be bothered dating anymore and the reasons why.  

If a woman *wants* a relationship then of course, have those discussions upfront.  But if a woman doesn't want a relationship, by default, she doesn't have to have discussions about expectations of each other.   And not having to worry about whether she may put on a couple of inches around her middle when she's post menopausal is one of the benefits of retiring from dating.   Likewise, if her sex drive is not what it was, she doesn't have to bother with all of that either.

 

[chillii]

 

TBH , l don't really see why any of it even matters or why anyone even cares. l mean if your looking for a relationship or marriage you obviously go for someone wanting the same. lf you don't want anything anymore - same thing , what's the problem go live your life, the two women l know like that l mean so what , l couldn't giva fk what they do they can climb trees for all l care, same with the guys l know , good luck to them , or if you just want casual then it sounds like women or men won't have any problem finding casual in that case either then.   Everyone's happy doing whatever their thing people . case closed.

 

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Likewise, if her sex drive is not what it was, she doesn't have to bother with all of that either.

Even if her sex drive is intact, "toys" may be more satisfying than some men and more convenient maybe...

Many women in unhappy marriages have distanced themselves from their man, long before the divorce.
They have often spent years switching their allegiances to kids, friends, extended family or pets, and busied themselves with work, their career, volunteer groups, hobbies and projects.
Once divorced they just continue this man-free existence.

[chillii]

You see this was one of my points earlier btw. l leave this thread go to the parents section l need to find my thread there about my daughter issues , very first thread l read though , is a guys sister , can't find a guy that want's marriage and kids, she's 37 l think he said. From what l heard when l was meeting women , and from what l read all over the forum and other forums , her finding  guys that want serious is the problem if anything , women are on forums all over the place complaining about the very opposite of this thread whether it's a family or marriage or just a relationship they can't find a guy that wants some commitment , they all just wanna sleep with them and run and blah blah blah.

So if some women are deciding they don't want that anymore , who cares , it should be a good thing it leaves the guys that do still want it left for the women that do still want it.

Edited June 17, 2020 by chillii

[CaliforniaGirl]

11 minutes ago, chillii said:

You see this was one of my points earlier btw. l leave this thread go to the parents section l need to find my thread there about my daughter issues , very first thread l read though , is a guys sister , can't find a guy that want's marriage and kids, she's 37 l think he said. From what l heard when l was meeting women , and from what l read all over the forum and other forums , her finding  guys that want serious is the problem if anything , women are on forums all over the place complaining about the very opposite of this thread whether it's a family or marriage or just a relationship they can't find a guy that wants some commitment , they all just wanna sleep with them and run and blah blah blah.

So if some women are deciding they don't want that anymore , who cares , it should be a good thing it leaves the guys that do still want it left for the women that do still want it.

What do you mean, they want the opposite of what's complained about on this thread? If they just wanted a marriage where they acted like servants I'm sure they could have it. If they're not already married then they WON'T settle for the various complaints on this thread, and may be even more cautious than those of us who found ourselves in such a position despite thinking we were having a more equal relationship on all levels.

And I think everybody knows there are both men and women will do want to get married. That wasn't the OP's question.

So I'm not sure what your point is. Do a lot of people want to get married? Yes...I didn't know that could actually be a question. Especially if they've never been married before, and want kids.

As far as who cares...the OP. He asked the question. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Woggle]

People on the internet complain about the opposite sex all the time. Men do it all the time as well and both genders that do this want more ammo to use against the other gender instead of anything tangible. The same women complaining about men not wanting to commit will also complain about marriage minded men wanting to tie a woman down. When I used to go on forums like that I actually saw it. When you are negative towards a group of people you are annoyed with them breathing the wrong way.

[basil67]

18 minutes ago, chillii said:

You see this was one of my points earlier btw. l leave this thread go to the parents section l need to find my thread there about my daughter issues , very first thread l read though , is a guys sister , can't find a guy that want's marriage and kids, she's 37 l think he said. From what l heard when l was meeting women , and from what l read all over the forum and other forums , her finding  guys that want serious is the problem if anything , women are on forums all over the place complaining about the very opposite of this thread whether it's a family or marriage or just a relationship they can't find a guy that wants some commitment , they all just wanna sleep with them and run and blah blah blah.

So if some women are deciding they don't want that anymore , who cares , it should be a good thing it leaves the guys that do still want it left for the women that do still want it.

I interpret the discussion about women retiring from dating differently.   I've been thinking of the women who've been there, done that.  It went OK but they just don't want to do it again.   They quietly remove themselves from the dating field without announcements or anger and start to prioritise their own time.

The shouty women who are all "men only want x or y and blah blah blah"....they seem to talk of retiring from dating, but never do.  They just keep complaining about men and don't seem to look at how they may be contributing to history repeating with each man she meets.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I suppose for those women, that probably feels like a whole lot of back pay for unpaid, largely unappreciated work.

It’s unappreciated by some because some men don’t care. If the woman didn’t do that work, the men wouldn’t notice, and wouldn’t care. 
 

I still don’t get this as a reason not to want to be in a new relationship. Basically the premise is “my previous relationship sucked, therefore I don’t want to be in a new relationship.”