Female friends and people watching in our partnership

[Dandelioness]

 

You also say email is ineffective yet admit that was how you’ve chosen to communicate with him most recently.

 

Are you purposely trying to sabotage your relationship?

 

For the first few years of our relationship we were able to problem solve verbally with little issues. Then (after our toddler was born) when certain topics came up, there was a lot of gaslighting. I took that as a red flag. When he gaslights me, I get angry because I trust myself and he later admits to things (sometimes it takes longer than others). We had a child so because I felt like we couldn't resolve an issue without blood boiling, I felt it was better to communicate via text to maintain a peaceful environment for our daughter. At first it seemed to work out well. But lately it's been going around in circles..

[Timshel]

Trust is earned in action. Words say all the 'proper' things but if not founded with action....dust in the wind.

 

 

 

Trying to maintain a relationship through text is dust, or dandelions...a whole lot of nothing which is why you are here.

 

 

I don't know why you keep trying with this guy, op but if you must despite all giant red flags flying; your bf gets a kick out of getting a rise out of you, hello third child. My guess is that he has never really been all that you needed, having children with him has only brought it all home.

 

 

 

Stop letting him have his ego fix with a rise out of you and it would also be best to make arrangements for a life without him, start planning.

[pepperbird]

I did tell him it's embarrassing. He was offended and said maybe we shouldn't hang out in public together then.. since I'm so insecure.

 

 

That, right there, speaks volumes. He's trying to shift the blame form him for being a perv to you for not being pleased with his behvaior.

 

All I can say is he'd better smarten up. One of these days, he's going to look at the wrong woman, and either she, or her boyfriend/girlfriend./spouse may well end up offering your husband a free face rearrangement.

[pepperbird]

first off, I find it sad how many guys on here are brushing off his disgusting behvaior. Looking and admiring is one thing. Following a woman and actually getting up to watch her as she leaves and looking past your partner to watch her is, well, nasty. ( men, before you brush that off as me being too quick to get angry, how would you feel if it was your daughter or wife her was ogling?)

 

 

About this woman who he reconnected with. I find it odd that he has nothing good to say about her, yet he was texting her? Now I don't know about anyone else, but if I don't like someone and I think they're a waste of time, I don't reach out to them. It makes me think of the line "me thinks the lady doth protest too much". In other words, he's trying to deflect your suspicion because he knows he up to no good.

[pepperbird]

How would your partner feel if it was one of HIS daughters who was being ogled (once they are older)? Would he think it was funny?

 

A guy I know was like your partner ( to a point). That sure changed the day he caught some guy checking out his teenage daughter. That guy got a swift kick int he @ss and the dad realized how creepy his behavior was.

[Mr. Lucky]

first off, I find it sad how many guys on here are brushing off his disgusting behvaior. Looking and admiring is one thing. Following a woman and actually getting up to watch her as she leaves and looking past your partner to watch her is, well, nasty. ( men, before you brush that off as me being too quick to get angry, how would you feel if it was your daughter or wife her was ogling?)

 

Why the need to exaggerate? I don't recall posters, male or female, say anything other than, in this regard, his behavior was disrespectful.

 

Certainly not "many guys"...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Dis]

I've read this thread front to back, carefully

 

And I have to say I don't think OP is being reactive at all

 

I know what it's like to be manipulated and gaslighted. It's an awful feeling and I feel sorry for OP that she's being accused of being reactive on this thread just like her husband shifts the blame on her at home

 

The things OP is describing are subtle in some ways and to the untrained eye her husband's actions don't appear to be controlling or manipulative but to people who have experienced this type of thing, first hand...I can honestly say, for the most part, OP isn't the problem here, her husband is

 

The husband's texts/emails are so phony I almost got nauseous reading them. He's a spinner, of the truth, of reality, of sanity

 

I do agree with the others though that if you feel so negatively about your husband, why stay? Yes you can give it a last go but this dude is a little s***t so I don't see how things could be turned around even with a last ditch attempt. He's probably cheating and he just sounds like a walking turn off.

 

I also think it's a bad idea to sleep with your children at night and not your partner. That's a sure fire way to make children believe it's normal to sleep with their parent every night (it's not) and make your husband believe you no longer want him...which leads to the down fall of the entire relationship

 

I know OP and partner aren't husband and wife, just typed it out that way

 

The husband sounds like a sleaze, a cheater, a manipulator, a liar and a perv

[Dandelioness]

Thank you. I don't think I'm being reactive either. I do call him on his bs every chance I get though.

 

We had our first counseling session since the start of this thread. As it turns out, she has extensive experience and understanding of gaslighting, including various personality disorders, mental health, and abuse. She was quite clear to him that gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse after he admitted of having done so. I found it interesting that the first thing he told her was that I have trust issues with everyone, as if to downplay my distrust in him? He also questioned if I was gaslighting him. That was clarified right away. I'm looking forward to hearing what else she has to say.

 

As for the lack of privacy in our relationship, she mentioned about "lacking filters" as her way to paraphrase what I was trying to explain. She was bang on with this and I also wonder if there's a bit of motive behind his actions to keep me as an outsider - maybe, maybe not.

 

I appreciate your support.

Edited May 11, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[NuevoYorko]

2 questions:

 

Why do you continue your conflicts with your partner via emails / texts?

 

What are the qualities about this guy and your relationship with him that keep you there, not including your children?

[pepperbird]

Has your counselor given any indication about whether or not your SO may be personality disordered? ( e.g.- borderline, narcissist, histrionic, schizoid, etc.).

 

 

f he is, those can be very difficult, if not impossible, to treat or change. Do you feel you can endure his behavior for the long term?

[Dandelioness]

Has your counselor given any indication about whether or not your SO may be personality disordered? ( e.g.- borderline, narcissist, histrionic, schizoid, etc.).

 

 

f he is, those can be very difficult, if not impossible, to treat or change. Do you feel you can endure his behavior for the long term?

 

No. We've only met her once and I doubt she'll ever be able to since we only get 6 sessions with her. I don't think he's narcissistic.

[Dandelioness]

New incident.

 

My partner said if his eyes "wander" again to let him know so he can stop this behaviour as it's clearly been offensive to me. So, please excuse the 'silliness' in the following information. My point here is to get feedback about his responses to the incident rather than the incident itself.

 

In your opinion, do you think he's gaslighting me here? This was done via email. We later spoke, face-to-face, and I'll explain further what happened there.

 

I will say, his emails came off sounding innocent and loving (despite me not buying into it). Once we had it face to face, he was quite agitated and defensive.

 

Here's the email conversation:

 

Me: We were at BP and there was an attractive lady sitting at a booth. I noticed her too, and yes, she was attractive.

 

No, I didn't notice you looking at her inappropriately (this time). However, you must have looked at her roughly 6-7 times (if not more) in the short amount of time you had access to her. Then you winked at me as if I hadn't noticed.

 

J: I'm sorry. I have no memory of the women you speak of and I am unaware that I looked at her multiple times. I believe you that you saw me look at someone but I have no memory of that person. I'm sorry I haven't been able to show you that you are everything to me and I love you very much. You deserve to feel loved and respected, I am sorry that you dont. I love you

 

Me: Don't play dumb.

 

J: I'm sorry.. I am not trying to "play dumb". The only person I remember was a girl sitting at the booth just inside the entrance.. I dont remember thinking she was attractive as she didnt catch my attention as such nor did I look at her closely enough to judge her appearance. I'm sorry.. I feel that you are hurting and it saddens me. I dont ever want you to feel this way, especially because of me .. I love you.

 

Me: If she didn't "catch your attention", you wouldn't have watched her so many times (while we were waiting for our seat; as we walked past her; as you went to/from the washroom).

 

J: Sorry .. I didnt think it was her that you were referring to as I didnt think I looked at her multiple times as she was not in my line of sight while we were there. I did not look at her with any thought of any kind and I am sorry that you feel that I did. I think she was the only other person in the place so yes I probably glanced at her as I passed as she was in my view and the only other person in the place.. I'm sorry

 

Me: Can you stop with these excuses?

 

J: I'm sorry I'm not trying to lie to you, make excuses, play dumb, or gaslight. I was not checking out that girl. I did see her and I believe you that you saw me look in her direction but I was not checking her out and I am sorry that you think I was.. sorry for the confusion.

 

Me: If you were to read your own emails as an outsider, you may see how they lack authenticity. How you write isn't how you speak (or behave) so all I can give you is a big eye roll.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This woman was sitting alone working on some paperwork. She was nearby the entrance where we were waiting for our seats. We waited less than 5min, and during that time, he must have turned to see her about 4 times. Then, as we past by her to our seats, he looked at her again (in this case I see it as natural). As our daughter ran past our hostess to our assumed table, my partner laughed, thinking it was cute. When he looked back to share that funny moment (I was walking behind him) he instead looked at the lady at the booth. Several minutes later, he got up to use the washroom. He looked at her again. At this point, she was sitting to his left with her back against him. The washroom was to his right. On his way back, he looked in her direction again.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

When we discussed this in person, he was irritated. At one point he said he just smiled at her to be friendly since he was passing by her [to the washroom]. But as I've described, he wasnt passing by her at all, nor was she even facing him. He simply just wanted to look at her again, perhaps to see if she was still there. Who knows.

 

The incident with our daughter, he said he looked back at 'me'. It was clear his eyes did not match mine, but instead, past me. No one else was behind us but her.

 

He said it's a matter of perception.. and how I just "think" he looked at her but instead "looked in her direction".

 

He accused 'me' of gaslighting by making him think his reality as wrong and mine as right. He kept saying he couldn't remember (by his email responses). From what I know, that's a typical strategy liars use: "I don't remember".

 

He said "everyone is different in their emails than they are in real life". (In response to my final email).

 

He said, if a man were sitting there, I wouldn't have questioned him. I only do if I think she's an attractive woman. Truly, if it were a man, he wouldnt be watching him so much, let alone give him a polite smile. This isn't the case of.. we were walking by people and politely acknowledged their existence.. To me, he clearly looks attracted to these women and doesn't have the impulse control (or respect) to move beyond that when I'm in his company.

 

Anyway, I get this sounds silly (even for me). It's more about the principle though, so try and understand that.

 

I'm also particularly interested in hearing from the males.

 

Sorry for the long read if you made it that far..

[BaileyB]

I would be really irritated too if my partner wanted to converse/argue about something by email. And I would be really irritated if I had apologized for whatever perceived slight I had caused and was repeatedly told to stop making excuses and playing dumb.

 

I don’t know that there is anything this man can say at this point that would satisfy you. You are a right fighter and that does not make for a happy relationship.

 

I’m not saying he is perfect - far from it based on what you have shared in this discussion. Obviously, we weren’t there so we don’t know what happened. We only have your report of what happened in the restaurant, but honestly... I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Dandelioness]

This is what gaslighting looks like:

 

Blatant lying

 

First, people who gaslight tell obvious lies. You know that they are lying. The issue is how they are lying with such ease. The gaslighter is setting up an abusive pattern. You begin to question everything and become uncertain of the simplest matters. This self-doubt is exactly what the gaslighter wants.

 

Deny, Deny, Deny

 

You know they said what they said. However, they deny ever saying it. The gaslighter may push the point and ask you to ‘prove it,’ knowing that you only have your memory of the conversation. It starts to make you question your memory and your reality. You begin to wonder if the gaslighter is right, maybe they didn’t really ever say what you remember.

 

Using what you love against you

 

Additionally, people who gaslight use what is closest to you against you. If you love your job, they will find issues with it. If you have children, the gaslighter may force you to believe you should never have had them. This abusive manipulation tactic causes the victim to question the foundation of themselves as well as what they hold close.

 

The slow death of self

 

One of the terrifying parts of gaslighting is the methodical timeline that the abuser uses. The manipulation happens gradually and over time the victim morphs into someone entirely different. The most confident human being can become a shell of a person without being aware of it in the process. The victim’s individual reality diminishes and becomes that of the abuser.

 

Words vs. Actions

 

Notably, a person who gaslights talks and talks. However, their words mean nothing. Therefore, it is important to look at what they are doing. The issues lie in their abusive actions towards the victim.

 

Love and flattery

 

A common technique of a person who gaslights is to tear you down and then build you back up, only to tear you down again. However, the uneasiness comes from the love and flattery. Whether you realize it or not, you are becoming used to being torn down. However, the praise may lead you to think that the abuser isn’t all that bad.

 

Confusion

 

Without a doubt, people crave stability, and the gaslighter knows this. The constant confusion that the abuser has instilled leads the victim to become desperate for clarity. More often than not, the victim searches for this clarity in the abuser, thus continuing the cycle and increasing the power that the abuser has.

 

Projecting

 

If the gaslighter is a liar and a cheater, they are now accusing you of being a liar and a cheater. You constantly feel like you need to defend yourself for things you haven’t done.

 

You’re "crazy”

 

The gaslighter knows you are already questioning your sanity. The gaslighter also knows that you search for clarity in the person who is purposefully causing the confusion. Therefore, when they call you crazy, you believe it.

 

Everyone else is a liar

 

The abuser may also tell you that everyone else is against you and that they are all liars. Again, believing that everyone else is lying to you forces your sense of reality to be further blurred. People who gaslight want their victims to turn to them for everything so that they can continue the abuse.

[BaileyB]

If you are feeling this upset by his behaviour, you do have another choice...

 

Honestly, your response is pretty extreme. I’m not sure why you would want to stay in a relationship that causes you this much pain and misery.

[Dandelioness]

I would be really irritated too if my partner wanted to converse/argue about something by email. And I would be really irritated if I had apologized for whatever perceived slight I had caused and was repeatedly told to stop making excuses and playing dumb.

 

He prefers indirect communication. Most liars do. He will walk away from me only to continue our conversation in text form.

 

How he's responded via email vs in person is very different. I just want a truth. My responses in the email is coming from past experiences where he does lie and deny to avoid being honest about something. I'm just tired of it.

 

I see a pattern of behaviour to a concern he's admitted to in the past. Again, it's less to do with the restaurant incident and everything to do with his responses.

 

I'm at the end of my rope a d am considering leaving him.

[BaileyB]

I'm at the end of my rope a d am considering leaving him.

 

I know you have children with this man, but if it is as bad as you seem to think it is... I’m honestly not sure why you stay.

 

I hope counselling brings some clarity for you.

[Dandelioness]

I know you have children with this man, but if it is as bad as you seem to think it is... I’m honestly not sure why you stay.

 

I hope counselling brings some clarity for you.

 

We have our second app next week. I just want to get to the bottom of this. If I'm right, I have no choice but to leave. If it's me, I need to change my own behaviours so I don't ruin a family, myself.

[Mr. Lucky]

He said, if a man were sitting there, I wouldn't have questioned him. I only do if I think she's an attractive woman. Truly, if it were a man, he wouldnt be watching him so much, let alone give him a polite smile. This isn't the case of.. we were walking by people and politely acknowledged their existence.. To me, he clearly looks attracted to these women and doesn't have the impulse control (or respect) to move beyond that when I'm in his company.

 

Anyway, I get this sounds silly (even for me). It's more about the principle though, so try and understand that.

 

While I think you'd probably judge me as guilty of the same thing because, as opposed to staring at my phone, I tend to watch people, that's not the point.

 

If things have disintegrated in a relationship to the point you're counting his eye tracks, you have only a couple of basic choices. As Bailey has said, don't think this guy could ever regain your regard, respect and affection. So the remaining question is simply how much more time do you want to waste guessing where he's looking and googling "gaslighting"?

 

You are a right fighter and that does not make for a happy relationship.

 

Amen...

 

Mr. Lucky

[pepperbird]

Taken on it's face, this one conversation doesn't seem so bad, but if it's part of a larger pattern, I can see why you're troubled.

[Dandelioness]

While I think you'd probably judge me as guilty of the same thing because, as opposed to staring at my phone, I tend to watch people, that's not the point.

 

As Bailey has said, don't think this guy could ever regain your regard, respect and affection. So the remaining question is simply how much more time do you want to waste guessing where he's looking and googling "gaslighting"?

 

Is it just people watching when a single person is repeatedly targeted until she's completely out of sight - when with your wife?

 

Gaslighting is psychological abuse. That's why I asked in my most recent incident. Does his responses sound like he's gaslighting me (again)? He's admitted to gaslighting me before. He's admitted to lying and giving me trickle truths.. just not when talking about specific concerns. I feel like I get a lot of run around and there's never any closure. I'm often second guessing myself.

 

Ya, I'm a fighter to his BS.

[Dandelioness]

Taken on it's face, this one conversation doesn't seem so bad, but if it's part of a larger pattern, I can see why you're troubled.

 

He went from -- no, i have no memory of any woman or looking at anyone multiple times - to -- oh, that girl. I didn't know that's who you were talking about (even though no one else was in our space) -- to -- I was just being friendly. I'm a people watcher. She was engrossed into her paperwork. How is he being friendly to someone she doesn't even notice? Was that the drive? If I look at her long enough, she'll notice me? I don't know.

 

What's with the sorry's and i love you's? It's thick and not convincing. Then there's the "I was looking in her direction- not her".. etc. It's BS

 

There's definitely a bigger picture here.

[BaileyB]

Gaslighting is psychological abuse. That's why I asked in my most recent incident. Does his responses sound like he's gaslighting me?

 

The term “gaslighting” should not even be used if you have a healthy relationship. The fact that it is a part of your regular vernacular with this man tells me that there is a real problem with this relationship.

 

And if I’m being very honest, based on your response to this most recent incident - my first thought was that your behaviour toward your husband was abusive. My goodness, it seems the man can’t even divert his eyes from yours without being accused of being abusive and gaslighting you. Even if his eye does wander, who talks to their partner that way?

 

Your response is WAY out of proportion to what appears to be a relatively minor incident. There is always more to the story. But, it that is the case then I would suggest that you take a big step back and discuss this with your counsellor. IF you are truly feeling this upset and you are that concerned that your husband is psychologically abusing you... then, you need to get yourself out of this situation. It is not healthy for either one of you. Based on your description here, I would say that you are emotionally abusing each other at this point.

Edited May 16, 2019 by BaileyB

[anika99]

OP I see what your saying and empathize with you. I think some posters have been too hard on you. Your partner has been disrespectful to you and since you just had a baby this is a time he should be extra attentive and sensitive to your feelings. You are hormonal and probably don't have your pre baby body back yet. I also agree that he should not be running to his parents to vent about you everytime he gets upset.

 

That being said, your most recent interaction with him regarding the woman in the restaurant is a little crazy sounding. I'm not defending him but this has become an obsession to you. Constantly watching where your husband puts his eyes and becoming stressed and upset when you don't approve is not healthy for you. He may very well be ogling these women but you will drive yourself batty if you keep this up.

 

I'll tell you a story from my own life. I had an 8yr live in relationship with an alcoholic man. We had a lot of problems but he was never unfaithful and never gave me any reason to doubt his fidelity. At one point my brother came to stay with us. He worked at the same company as my boyfriend, which was near my work and it just so happened that my brother's gf worked with me. So we all traveled to work together every morning in my brother's car. He and his gf were in the front, me and my boyfriend sat in the back. Much of the drive to work involved driving down a road that ran along side a bike path. The path was filled with joggers, bikers and pedestrians.

 

One day as we were going to work I was watching the people on the path and I just happened to see my boyfriend watching a pretty female jogger. He watched her until she was out of sight. This caught my attention because I had truly never paid any attention to where my boyfriend was looking before. Now I was alert and I noticed him taking notice of all the girls on the path but I didn't say anything. At first I was intrigued but as I continued to pay attention to where he was looking on the drive to work everyday and learned that he looked at every girl that was even somewhat attractive it started to drive me crazy. Still I didn't mention it to him. The reason I didn't bother mentioning it was because we already had enough problems to bicker over. As I said, he was an alcoholic. I was already driving myself ragged trying to control and police his drinking, I didn't have the energy to start trying to control another one of his behaviors.

 

At some point I joined a support group for people who were dealing with an alcoholic loved one. Through that group I learned that I was truly powerless to control or change another person. It was not my job or my right to fix or change someone else, I could only fix myself. My job was to run my life, not his. I had a hard time adopting that philosophy. It sounded to me like they were saying my boyfriend could just do whatever he wanted no matter how it made me feel. Eventually I had to admit that nothing I was doing to control his behaviour was working anyways. As a matter of fact, my efforts to control him was actually more stressful to me than the behaviour I was trying to make him change. All the talking, the bickering, the crying, getting mad, being sad....oh it was exhausting and IT DIDN'T WORK.

 

In the end I decided to completely let go of trying to control. I took MY life back. When my boyfriend didn't come home because he was out getting drunk, or if he was drunk at home, I just refused to let myself become upset about it. Instead I started to focus on doing things for myself. Things that uplifted me, bettered me, or just made me happy in the moment. Small things like going to a movie, and bigger things like going back to school. Oh the relief I felt when I gave up trying to control something beyond my control! The things I accomplished! Most importantly, once I put my focus back on myself I was able to view our relationship more objectively. I realized that he and I had gotten together and stayed together for the wrong reasons. I accepted that we were not a good match and we never would be. I still loved him but I ended the relationship for both our sakes.

 

I'm so sorry for writing a novel but I see you trying to control something you can't control. You and your partner are both doing a dysfunctional dance. The way you watch him like a hawk and take notice of every detail is unhealthy. Just let it go. Instead of having the same circular arguments with him over and over again, find something to do that's good for you and that makes you feel good. Stop wasting your time and energy on who your boyfriend looks at and focus on making yourself happy instead. At this point you are making yourself miserable by your own actions. Not saying you're in the wrong, just saying you need to accept that no amount of bickering or nagging is going to change him. It's time to let it go and just work on yourself.

[Mr. Lucky]

Is it just people watching when a single person is repeatedly targeted until she's completely out of sight - when with your wife?

 

I think it's possible see a number of things in one's sightline, though we're almost arguing how many angels fit on a pinhead.

 

You should do that which brings you the most peace and healthiest environment in which to raise your child. This doesn't seem to be it...

 

Mr. Lucky