Was she just after a free expensive meal?

[Ruby Slippers]

It is possible for a man to show his interest without spending an excessive amount of money for a meal with a woman he barely knows.

Absolutely, and this is an important point. A serious, cool date doesn't have to cost much. Dinner at a modest place and a long walk and conversation through a beautiful, scenic (public) spot - along the water, say - for me would be a great first date. It just needs to feel somewhat special somehow, showing that he considered what you like and put some thought into it.

[Logo]

IÂ’ve read all the responses since the last time IÂ’ve posted.

 

HereÂ’s the kicker, I used to meet women out in the real world and if I saw something there, IÂ’d ask them out. First date, nice dinner, wine or drinks whatever.

 

 

I looked forward to the dates because I had already met the person. I felt that she was into me and that it was going to be the start of something nice and promising.

 

 

Then I met my ex.

 

 

Does she represent every woman on Earth? Of course not. But the red flags I came away with by the time the relationship was over, made me rethink my approach.

 

 

Why? You may ask. Well, if someone like her can be so loving or show love and be affectionate and considerate, and then turn into someone I didnÂ’t recognize anymore, then I need to tread carefully. I certainly didnÂ’t walk around willfully blindfolded. She went from being person A to being person Z.

 

 

Do I like it? No. As hokey as it may sound, I enjoyed the romancing, the mutual discovery and the journey toward an exclusive relationship. But now? Now I feel as though someone had told me that Santa isnÂ’t real and I have to come to grips with the ugly reality.

 

 

YouÂ’ve mentioned sorting out the serious ones, the promising ones from the others.

 

 

What if I told you that my ex was such an excellent liar that it took more than 30 or 40 dates for her to start to show some red flags? She had been living a double life for so long that it was effortless for her to do what she did. For her, it was as effortless as breathing. It came naturally.

 

 

Now that OLD is my main source of potential dates, itÂ’s a cesspool.

 

 

I donÂ’t like it one bit. I donÂ’t know why IÂ’m not meeting suitable women in the real world anymore. God knows IÂ’ve tried.

 

 

So with OLD I canÂ’t and donÂ’t feel itÂ’s cost effective - to put it bluntly - to be so generous and invested so much, especially with my time.

 

 

And the problem with OLD is that a person could come across as Ms. Hyde over the phone only to turn into Ms. Jekyll when we meet in person. My profile has the most recent and clear photos. So there are no surprises.

 

 

If your approach is working for you, thatÂ’s great.

[Logo]

I doubt that. The most attractive, desirable men I've ever dated have always taken me to the nicest places. These men are driven and it's not a big deal for them to take a woman on a decent date. Usually on the first date, they subtly communicate that they are more than able to provide for a family and I'd never have to work if I didn't want to.

 

Didn’t want to as opposed to didn’t have to. Interesting choice of words.

[Ruby Slippers]

Logo, it sounds as if you're jaded by previous hurt. Believe me, I TOTALLY get that! That's not the time to be trying to date anyone.

 

I've been through the wringer as much as anybody, but now I'm over it, I'm hopeful, and I'm giving myself and my dates a fair chance. This is really the only state of mind one should be in when dating - though of course many are not.

 

I very politely turned down a man on a dating site today, and then he hurled a very nasty insult at me. In the past I would have been hurt by it, thought about it for days, even, felt demoralized. Now I understand he's in a bad place and I just feel sorry for him. I wished him all the best in finding peace and love soon, blocked him, and did my own little cleansing activity to purge his bad vibes from my psyche.

 

Didn’t want to as opposed to didn’t have to. Interesting choice of words.

Meaning: I'm free to work if I want to, he's not going to forbid it. But if I'd prefer to focus on raising children instead of working, he'll afford me the freedom to do that. I personally want to raise my children myself, not hand them over to other people to raise. No judgment of others, but that's my stance. I tend to date men who agree with that.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Ruby Slippers

[BaileyB]

The most attractive, desirable men I've ever dated have always taken me to the nicest places. These men are driven and it's not a big deal for them to take a woman on a decent date. Usually on the first date, they subtly communicate that they are more than able to provide for a family and I'd never have to work if I didn't want to. These are the men who rarely get friend-zoned, the ones women try hardest to impress.

 

You and I date in different circles Ruby...

 

But seriously, if a man told me on a first date that he could provide for me and I would never have to work again if I didn't want too... I'm not sure what I would think of that. Staying home to raise children is one thing, that is a joint-decision and a wonderful thing to be able to do. Although, financial stability is important to me in a partner, building a life for myself separate from my relationship and having the ability to support myself without relying on a man is also very important to me. Some men, who has this attitude, can be rather arrogant and entitled... If a man said this to me on a first date, it would raise more alarm bells that would make me wonder if we have the same values... It wouldn't really make me try harder to impress him...

Edited October 13, 2018 by BaileyB

[Logo]

Logo, it sounds as if you're jaded by previous hurt. Believe me, I TOTALLY get that! That's not the time to be trying to date anyone.

 

I've been through the wringer as much as anybody, but now I'm over it, I'm hopeful, and I'm giving myself and my dates a fair chance. This is really the only state of mind one should be in when dating - though of course many are not.

 

I very politely turned down a man on a dating site today, and then he hurled a very nasty insult at me. In the past I would have been hurt by it, thought about it for days, even, felt demoralized. Now I understand he's in a bad place and I just feel sorry for him. I wished him all the best in finding peace and love soon, blocked him, and did my own little cleansing activity to purge his bad vibes from my psyche.

 

 

Meaning: I'm free to work if I want to, he's not going to forbid it. But if I'd prefer to focus on raising children instead of working, he'll afford me the freedom to do that. I personally want to raise my children myself, not hand them over to other people to raise. No judgment of others, but that's my stance. I tend to date men who agree with that.

 

 

 

I didn’t post my experience to be pitied. And I don’t think you meant it that way.

 

 

My point was that there’s a difference between online dating and dating someone you’ve met in person. Online dating is worse.

 

 

The first date with online dating just doesn’t makes sense for it to be what you — based on what you described— expect it to be.

 

 

Why should the man lavish a complete stranger with anything? Even a drink? It’s not about being cheap. It’s about self respect. I don’t want to feel that I owe anyone anything, if a friend were to foot the bill or check for something. Or even a colleague.

 

 

Why does the woman feel that the man owes her that? Just to show that he’s serious?

 

 

By the same token, I could flip that “jaded” coin that you used and say, “It sounds like you haven’t been taken seriously in the past, so it’s not the best time to date.”

 

 

The bottom line, were both cynical and realistic, you’re just rationalizing it and giving it a nice veneer to make it more palpable.

 

 

I’m not saying that in an adversarial or confrontational way. Just an observation of what I’m seeing.

[max3732]

Absolutely, and this is an important point. A serious, cool date doesn't have to cost much. Dinner at a modest place and a long walk and conversation through a beautiful, scenic (public) spot - along the water, say - for me would be a great first date. It just needs to feel somewhat special somehow, showing that he considered what you like and put some thought into it.

 

As I stated before I did put a great deal of thought into the place. She wanted to go somewhere in the city and I picked a place with free valet parking so parking wouldn't be an issue. It's not a chain restaurant and is actually one of my favorite places. It has soft lighting and music, a waterfall and a garden area where you can walk, and pretty good food. Now there are nicer places that I go to for special occasions (such as the one she invited me to), but as others have said this isn't someone I've ever met. Plus I was a bit taken back by her comment that it was the worst.

 

There was someone else I was interested in that lived in a different state and whenever we got together I paid for everything and she had very expensive taste. On time our bill was over $200 without ordering wine just for dinner in addition to all the activities I paid for. As I've stated on other posts I get very nervous about trying to initiate physical contact and never even held hands or got a single kiss from her in a few years of spending big money and time with her. Last time I was committed to trying to move to an actual relationship and was so nervous I completely messed it up.

 

In contrast to that the girlfriend that I had for over 2 years our 1st date was grabbing subs from subway and having a picnic after walking by a river. There have been other women I've taken to nice places and as others have said they weren't what I thought from their online profiles. Sometimes their appearance, but others lied about basic info that's important to me.

 

With the woman I was talking about here who blocked me yes she was very attractive, but she told me she had a lot of the same interests and similar education so I figured it would be worth meeting up just to see. Definitely sounds like she was high maintenance though and I do think it was better I found out before spending anything on her.

 

Now I'm back to 0 prospects though and more time alone swiping through pictures.

[Ruby Slippers]

The first date is subtle hints. It's usually around date 3 that they state their intentions, make clear their ability to provide, etc.

 

I'm 100% honest and direct and absolutely love it when the man is, too.

 

I've taken care of myself my whole life. Now I want a man I can rely on to provide for our family while I focus on creating and nurturing the family.

 

Knowing me, I'm sure I'll always have some side venture going and bringing in good money. Maybe not when I'm in the thick of taking care of babies, but most of the time. I need to know I can rely on him to keep the foundation solid.

[Ruby Slippers]

I didn’t post my experience to be pitied. And I don’t think you meant it that way.

No, I did not mean it that way. I was giving an extreme example of a man who insulted me on a dating site as someone who's obviously extremely jaded.

 

Why should the man lavish a complete stranger with anything?

One dinner is not "lavish", in my book. He takes her out on a nice date because he wants to win her over. It's called courtship.

 

Why does the woman feel that the man owes her that?

He doesn't owe me anything. I don't owe him my presence. We both offer it willingly. If you don't want to offer it, don't. The men who want to offer it will.

 

The bottom line, were both cynical and realistic, you’re just rationalizing it and giving it a nice veneer to make it more palpable.

I'm realistic but not at all cynical, still 100% hopeful. Dates always tell me it's so refreshing to be out with a woman who's happy and optimistic. We always have a wonderful time. I get "amazing first date" comments all the time.

[Ruby Slippers]

Plus I was a bit taken back by her comment that it was the worst.

Yes, I stated earlier in the thread that this was very rude on her part. I would have ended the communication right there. If she's that rude before you've even met, imagine how rude she could get once you get to know her. Ick!

 

As I've stated on other posts I get very nervous about trying to initiate physical contact and never even held hands or got a single kiss from her in a few years of spending big money and time with her.

I'd always go for a kiss at the end of date 1, after escalating a bit of physical touching throughout the evening. If she's not receptive to that, her interest is low, no point in continuing. You can figure out in one date if there's anything potential.

 

Now I'm back to 0 prospects though and more time alone swiping through pictures.

I know the feeling. Stay hopeful, and be very selective. Go for the kiss on date 1. If she's not into that, she's not into you and it's a waste of your time.

 

Your girl is out there just waiting for you to find her. It's always a search for a needle in a haystack. Don't let the thousands of pieces of hay distract or dismay you in your search. Stay positive and keep looking. She's out there.

 

Here's a sweet little uplifting story about my latest date:

 

Last night I met up with a man I met on a dating site I originally wasn't sure would be a match. I asked if we could be friends, he agreed, and we've been texting and had a couple of phone calls since about our dates, careers, etc.

 

I have a big job interview coming up this week, and he does a lot of hiring in my field. I asked him if I could take him out to dinner to get his advice on salary negotiation. We met up last night, and within 5 minutes I knew that my initial read was wrong and I could potentially date him and get serious with him. We clicked immediately and the conversation was off the charts fabulous.

 

Ten minutes into the "meeting", he said he heard and understood I want to be "friends", but he likes me a lot and sees potential for us. I told him I felt the same way and said my initial read was wrong, I'd like to convert this "meeting" to a date. He took my hand while I looked into his eyes and told him exactly how I felt.

 

I paid for our nice dinner, then we went to the patio to go through my resume, etc. He gave awesome advice, exactly what I needed.

 

He held my hand as he walked me to my car, we gave each other a big, long, awesome hug, and he kissed me on the cheek, asked if he can take me out next time, next weekend.

 

It was unexpected and wonderful. I'm more excited about him than anyone I've met from online so far this round. Super excited. I can imagine us living our dream lives together. Here's hoping!!

[bene]

If setting a date requires that much negotiating then there is simply not enough interest and natural flow between two people. It should be more natural and not feel like a business deal. I get the impression that you are two people who feel that they should be putting themselves out there to find someone but not very much interested in that particular person.

 

I think her saying that the place you chose is “the worst” was rude. If someone has high standards then these standards should apply to manners as well.

 

I don’t believe that she was after a free meal. A person who is willing to go out with a stranger for hours just to get one meal would be in serious financial trouble. I find it hard to believe that such level of poverty is common among people who work and have access to technology.

[Logo]

No, I did not mean it that way. I was giving an extreme example of a man who insulted me on a dating site as someone who's obviously extremely jaded.

 

 

One dinner is not "lavish", in my book. He takes her out on a nice date because he wants to win her over. It's called courtship.

 

 

He doesn't owe me anything. I don't owe him my presence. We both offer it willingly. If you don't want to offer it, don't. The men who want to offer it will.

 

 

I'm realistic but not at all cynical, still 100% hopeful. Dates always tell me it's so refreshing to be out with a woman who's happy and optimistic. We always have a wonderful time. I get "amazing first date" comments all the time.

 

The thing with one-dinners is that they add up.

 

 

I understand the courting process very well. I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, at least for the time being.

[Shining One]

I don’t believe that she was after a free meal. A person who is willing to go out with a stranger for hours just to get one meal would be in serious financial trouble. I find it hard to believe that such level of poverty is common among people who work and have access to technology.

It's not a matter of financial need. Some want to experience the meal from the nice restaurant without having to pay for it.

[max3732]

The first date is subtle hints. It's usually around date 3 that they state their intentions, make clear their ability to provide, etc.

 

I'm 100% honest and direct and absolutely love it when the man is, too.

 

I've taken care of myself my whole life. Now I want a man I can rely on to provide for our family while I focus on creating and nurturing the family.

 

Knowing me, I'm sure I'll always have some side venture going and bringing in good money. Maybe not when I'm in the thick of taking care of babies, but most of the time. I need to know I can rely on him to keep the foundation solid.

 

The thing is there are a lot of gold diggers where I live and I know I have to be careful about that or they will take advantage of me. I'm actually rather financially successful, but as you can probably tell from my posts I'm rather shy and low key (especially around attractive women) and do not like to show off financially or in any way. If the woman is only interested in me for money obviously that's not going to work.

 

I would think that she could figure out based on my job and getting to know me that I'm financially stable. Another thing that's tough with this OLD is that one wrong move and you're blocked. In real life with people you see all the time I've gone back and forth on people and been upset with them, but sometimes end up liking them. Kind of like with your guy who you said you want to date now.

 

Are you saying I should contact that woman again who I went out with 3 times and told me she just wanted to be friends?

[Ruby Slippers]

The thing with one-dinners is that they add up.

 

 

I understand the courting process very well. I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, at least for the time being.

I'm cool with that. I understand dating costs money. That's why I think it's very important to be extremely selective and take a little time getting to know the woman before you even extend an invite. Only proceed if you see serious potential and the communication flows nicely with positive energy.

[Ruby Slippers]

The thing is there are a lot of gold diggers where I live and I know I have to be careful about that or they will take advantage of me.

If I were a man, I'd ask a woman out to a nice but not high-end restaurant for the first date. Something like $15-20 a plate. But before I did that, I'd exchange plenty of messages and have at least one good phone call to get a read on what kind of person she is.

 

I'm sure there are gold-digger tells, just as guys give tells they only want sex. Read up on that so you can learn to filter them out better. I can sniff that out right quick by now, and I don't interact with those guys whatsoever.

 

Another thing that's tough with this OLD is that one wrong move and you're blocked.

That's the nature of the beast. Going back to my needle in a haystack analogy, those people are pieces of hay, ultimately meaningless in your world. Don't take it personally. Let them go and keep looking for that glinting silver needle.

 

I think it's very rude to block unless the man does something block-worthy, like insult me or make lewd comments. But manners are a quaint, old-fashioned notion to many people these days. They're rude. Don't take it personally.

 

Are you saying I should contact that woman again who I went out with 3 times and told me she just wanted to be friends?

Many people say once a woman friendzones a man, there's no chance.

 

I can only speak for myself - that has not been my experience. Some of my best relationships - arguably THE best - have started from an extended friendship where we got to know each other as people, then developed feelings and took it from there.

 

It never hurts a man to have cool women as friends. Just don't spend money on her or do anything romantic, and don't invest more there than in your dating life.

 

I invited my new "friend" to dinner and I treated him, drove pretty far to his neck of the woods in traffic after work, because I wanted to absorb his knowledge. He had told me before he often gets targeted by gold-diggers, and though I easily could have gotten a "free meal" from him, that is not my intention, and I conducted myself accordingly.

[Els]

Can you link us the place you suggested and the place she wanted to go to?

 

 

Also, how do you know she expects you to pay? AFAIK going dutch is fairly common nowadays.

[BaileyB]

I'm cool with that. I understand dating costs money. That's why I think it's very important to be extremely selective and take a little time getting to know the woman before you even extend an invite. Only proceed if you see serious potential and the communication flows nicely with positive energy.

 

Ruby, this is what we are saying... This is an online date with a woman he doesn't really know. He can't be selective because they have not met in person! Meet her and get to know her by doing something low-key and inexpensive... Then, if things are good and there is potential - extend the invite for a nice dinner if that's what both individuals want to do.

 

The fact that this woman he had never met before expected an expensive restaurant and was unwilling to consider other options for their first meeting is a big red flag. It's not exactly reasonable or considerate to the man.

[guest569]

Can you link us the place you suggested and the place she wanted to go to?

 

 

Also, how do you know she expects you to pay? AFAIK going dutch is fairly common nowadays.

 

You don't know unless you straight up ask in advance or wait until the $250 bill arrives.

 

I think max has done the right thing by not going for the expensive place. It does sound to me that she expects too much and yeah probably would have expected him to pay.

 

I agree with her that bowling straight away is a bit much. I would rather sit and talk for a while first. I've done bowling on a first date after we sat and had coffee. But yeah "hi nice to meet you" and then bowling for 1 or 2 hrs and not being able to hear each other and then parting ways. And if you take Ruby's advice, a super awkward pash in the parking lot. (no thanks)

 

But her insulting your choice of restaurant and you insulting her (opinionated is never a positive) it doesn't bode well.

[max3732]

Can you link us the place you suggested and the place she wanted to go to?

 

 

Also, how do you know she expects you to pay? AFAIK going dutch is fairly common nowadays.

 

I'd rather not since I don't want my location made public. Trust me it's a fairly nice place and is not exactly cheap, with the cheapest entree being over $20 and the most expensive being $40. There is no way to tell about whether she expects me to pay, but I wouldn't feel right not paying for a 1st date

[littleblackheart]

Neither of you liked each other enough to meet in the end; that's the only certain take away from this. Everything else is either conjecture or assumption between 2 strangers.

 

I don't date so I don't really know what the protocol is (if there is one) but a whole dinner with a complete stranger doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

Why don't you take the next girl to a nice tapas bar for drinks and a couple of tapas? If it works, you can order more and if not, no one's breaking the bank (especially if you split the bill). Putting that much pressure on yourself / each other on a first meet seems a bit pointless (to me).

[max3732]

Neither of you liked each other enough to meet in the end; that's the only certain take away from this. Everything else is either conjecture or assumption between 2 strangers.

 

I don't date so I don't really know what the protocol is (if there is one) but a whole dinner with a complete stranger doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

Why don't you take the next girl to a nice tapas bar for drinks and a couple of tapas? If it works, you can order more and if not, no one's breaking the bank (especially if you split the bill). Putting that much pressure on yourself / each other on a first meet seems a bit pointless (to me).

 

What if you don't drink?

[guest569]

What if you don't drink?

 

Tapas and water.

[JuneL]

Tapas and water.

 

Iced tea, soda, lemonade ?

[greymatter]

I get everything that you said about not wanting to do something so expensive for a first meeting, but I think what you said was totally uncalled for and rude. I would have blocked you for that also. You don't know her at all and could have handled it much more diplomatically. For instance, you could have said "I like the idea of that place, but for a first meeting, how about we meet at ___."