Anyone totally given up? How'd it work out for you?

[normal person]

LightWave93 sent me a PM with a link to a social media profile. He really doesn't have 2 heads. In the photos he looks . . .normal, tall, good smile (white teeth), dressed appropriately, has friends, seems to have good sense of humor.

 

None of that led me to real insights about why he's struggling so mightily but I can see why people keep telling him he's fine.

 

I've seen his picture too, he looks totally normal. We can tell from his posts that he's smart and and articulate. There's no "obvious" issue holding him back. But it's been suggested the problem isn't a visible one. Consider that he's 25, still in school, hanging out with 18-21 year olds, and insisting that that has nothing to do with it, because either (he thinks) no one knows he's that old, or someone told him it wasn't a problem.

 

If their marriage is on the rocks because of flowers and candles then I'd say they just weren't a great match and had different ways to express their appreciation / love, not that there's anything wrong with his view of the world.

 

I agree, but that isn't their/his whole story. This particular example was used to illustrate the point that people can think they're doing things right, or saying things right, or doing someone a favor, but it can have the opposite effect if not considered in conjunction with the processes of the way the world actually works. I think a big reason you see so many failures in both love and business is because people make their decisions based on how they want the world to work, or how they think it works, without watching or listening to actually tell you how it works.

 

There's another poster on here who, for a long time, complained that he did everything supposedly right -- he was nice, respectful, put others before himself, at the expense of himself -- and yet girls still always went for guys who acted in the opposite way. He had a lifetime of experiencing this and still couldn't decipher the reality of the situation even though it was being played out over and over in front of him. He believed a lifetime of fairytales and media messages about women's desires that run counter to real life. He refused to accept the reality that women don't actually want a neutered doormat of a man.

 

You're not much different. You believe all these people telling you one thing while reality tells you a much different thing. I'll ask you again because you dodged the question: at what point will you realize reality is the more reliable standard to judge yourself? When the score is 1000 to 50? 2000 to 50? Again, I'm not saying there's something bad about you, I'm just saying perhaps you've been getting an incomplete picture, which could have happened for a variety of reasons.

 

What you want/think/hope is irrelevant. The market and the actual circumstances of reality are the biggest forces that should shape your perceptions.

 

EDIT:

Less than fifteen minutes ago, matched with a girl on an app who I'd spoken to before. It didn't go anywhere as she was looking for friends only. She asked why I'd unmatched and I, truthfully, said I reset my account as I get few matches and haven't been on a date in forever (I didn't care for what happened next). Her words? "I don't know how! You're an extremely attractive guy!".

 

But not enough for her to go out with you, so does it really matter? She's on Tinder looking for friends? Ehhhhhhhh...

 

If I were you I think I could accept that it's not a visual issue. But I'm not sold the issue isn't something to do with your age (everyone knows you're older even if you talk about it), your station in life (older student hanging out with teenagers), or your vibe (general insecurity and neediness). My guess is some combination of all those things. You're sort of between a rock and a hard place because the bigger the fuss made about your lack of success, or asking people what they think of you, or why you can't get what you want, the more unappealing it makes you. It's not "fair," but that's irrelevant.

 

If you can't present any suggestions as to what the problems are, the least you could do is entertain the possibility that what you've thought so far isn't entirely accurate. Otherwise, I don't see how anyone could help you.

Edited June 25, 2018 by normal person

[outwithpeterpan]

I feel for you OP, dating can be brutal.

 

It varies greatly. Women will usually speak with me, have a good time with me etc, but there's never any sign of attraction there which I can recognize clearly when I observe similar habits from friends (which is odd, as subjectively I am more attractive / outgoing than them, and have been told as such). On the rare occasion I feel the interaction went well enough to warrant asking them out, then I will do so. This is met with rejection, which I take well and have no issue with other than...well, that it always happens.

 

Funnily enough, a lot of my female friends have said I'm attractive, charming etc, and many who do have boyfriends have told me that at one point or another their partners saw me as a threat to their relationship. I also had an occasion months ago when I was told that a group of around five girls, two of which were homosexual, commented on how attractive / interested I was when I had left the room. Allow me to have this minor brag; usually I come here with only negatives to say.

 

I don't meet that many women, though. I never feel into the more expansive social circles and I never meet anyone through the activities I do, which is frustrating.

 

I think the bolded is telling. Your female friends say you're attractive. They also hang out with you. People tend to group off with similar people socially. So beyond telling you that you're attractive, they're identifying with you at like a tribal level by being your friends, and you're identifying with them. And the boyfriends think you're a "threat" so they can see you with those friends...

 

I'm not saying you should date your friends. But it sounds like you do have a pool of people you could get a date with. People like your girl friends.

 

Is there any chance you could meet girls through your girl friends?

[LightWave93]

And if I may, talk to some women that you may not have considered in the past. Of course, she has to be attractive to you... as I’ve grown older and wiser, my definition of “attractive” has changed. Watch that you are not limiting yourself by looking for the beauty queens... there are many things that contribute to attraction in addition to physical beauty.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know any available women at this time that I could consider dating.

 

As for attractiveness; I'd find a variety of women attractive, and I don't focus too much on appearance. However, there is certainly a comparison to be made with how attractive women interact with me (IE. Not at all) to how average women do.

 

I'll ask you again because you dodged the question: at what point will you realize reality is the more reliable standard to judge yourself? When the score is 1000 to 50? 2000 to 50?

 

No, there's just simply a lot to respond to.

 

All I can really say is that the more obvious, potential issues which are associated with those scores are seemingly not the cause of my problem. What is the problem, however, I don't know.

 

Years back, I would have simply said I was ugly. Not getting matches + no attention in real life is often attributed to one's appearance. Apparently, I am not unattractive, so I am at a loss what my throw women off.

 

Is there any chance you could meet girls through your girl friends?

 

Have tried. They don't know anyone who is available.

[preraph]

To find that one, I have to actually be able to get dates. I'm not getting dates.

 

And it's not just that either. I have needs, I like sex. Our culture is rife with casual encounters, and yet no one likes me on a superficial level for me to experience that either.

 

It's just so difficult when all around you people are dating or hooking up, and then you go online for advice and end up reading stories about how people are dating or hooking up. I just long for the day I can be "normal" and experience love and intimacy again.

 

It's got to the point where I've genuinely considered an escort. It's not in my character, but it feels like the only way I'd ever have the company of an attractive woman. And that is upsetting. And no one truly seems to understand.

 

There it is. I know it's not easy, but if you don't learn to find something besides physical attractive in a woman, you will be relegated to paying for it. If you were really good looking and as long as you don't have a freakish personality or some attitude, like always being negative or making clear you are paranoid or hating on this or that group or gender, you would be getting women. I like Enigma's experiment. You can easily find out who is physically attracted to you by doing that. But make it a very recent photo and don't touch it up. Then at least you'll know what level of attractiveness you are.

 

In real life, if you meet people in real life with similar interests and things in common, you might do better, but only if neither of you are solely qualifying only on physical attributes.

[preraph]

LightWave93 sent me a PM with a link to a social media profile. He really doesn't have 2 heads. In the photos he looks . . .normal, tall, good smile (white teeth), dressed appropriately, has friends, seems to have good sense of humor.

 

None of that led me to real insights about why he's struggling so mightily but I can see why people keep telling him he's fine.

 

I suspect something is off about his personality that might or might not reveal itself in a video chat. I mean, what else could it be. Still, if he would ask women out who are below his attractiveness level, I bet they'd say yes, and then maybe he'd find out eventually what is up and fix whatever it is.

[BaileyB]

As for attractiveness; I'd find a variety of women attractive, and I don't focus too much on appearance. However, there is certainly a comparison to be made with how attractive women interact with me (IE. Not at all) to how average women do.

 

Hey friend, the truly attractive men aren't interested in me either.

 

Yet, I have found a guy who is very attractive, to me. And he seems to find me very attractive, to him.

 

I find this talk about physical attraction interesting. My gut is telling me that you are trying to get the attention of the wrong kind of women... Expand your thoughts about who you would be interested in dating, approach some women, and see what happens...

[normal person]

I suspect something is off about his personality that might or might not reveal itself in a video chat. I mean, what else could it be.

 

He's 25 and these girls are college aged (18-21). He thinks they don't know how old he is, but I'd guess they definitely do.

 

Still, if he would ask women out who are below his attractiveness level, I bet they'd say yes, and then maybe he'd find out eventually what is up and fix whatever it is.

 

To be fair to OP, I don't think "lower your standards" is usually particularly actionable advice, as I don't think dating someone you're not attracted to will make you happy, but perhaps "be more realistic," and/or "raise yourself to the level of the people you're attracted to." Perhaps he is aiming too high and needs a wake up call. Maybe he could use some improvement here or there like we all can. Or, maybe, his circumstances (being 25 in school with 18-21 year olds) just aren't conducive to his success right now, and he just refuses to see it that way because people have told him otherwise. I'm not sure how it is these days but when I was in school, a 25 year old "super" senior would be chuckled about, not treated like everyone else. 'Hate to say it, but it's the truth.

[BaileyB]

Still, if he would ask women out who are below his attractiveness level, I bet they'd say yes...

 

Agreed. I think if he would ask out women who are below his desired attractiveness level, he may find some dates. But, that's just me...

[LightWave93]

There it is. I know it's not easy, but if you don't learn to find something besides physical attractive in a woman, you will be relegated to paying for it. If you were really good looking and as long as you don't have a freakish personality or some attitude, like always being negative or making clear you are paranoid or hating on this or that group or gender, you would be getting women. I like Enigma's experiment. You can easily find out who is physically attracted to you by doing that. But make it a very recent photo and don't touch it up. Then at least you'll know what level of attractiveness you are.

 

I think you misunderstood my statement. See my response to BaileyB below.

 

As for photos; I think that's a ridiculous experiment. People will like my photos for a variety of reasons, and I have some pretty decent ones of me that have been "liked" well in the past.

 

I suspect something is off about his personality that might or might not reveal itself in a video chat. I mean, what else could it be. Still, if he would ask women out who are below his attractiveness level, I bet they'd say yes, and then maybe he'd find out eventually what is up and fix whatever it is.

 

More than happy to video chat / record a video for anyone here.

 

I'm not sure how it is these days but when I was in school, a 25 year old "super" senior would be chuckled about, not treated like everyone else.

 

This is where you are off. It could be a modern day thing, different culture (UK vs US), I don't know...but being older is not an issue where I'm from. Hell, there's guys in their 30's at my place of study who have no issue with women my age or younger.

 

Also, as I have said, women assume I am younger. The last time I mentioned my age to someone, two people questioned me as they didn't believe me.

 

Agreed. I think if he would ask out women who are below his desired attractiveness level, he may find some dates. But, that's just me...

 

It appears one statement of mine has been taken out of context. I was simply pointing out that I lack relationships of any kind with particularly attractive women, NOT that they were the ones I go for.

 

I find a vast variety of women attractive. I don't aim for the top girls.

 

If it helps, link me some pics of women and I can say whether or not I'd date them, consider them way out of my league etc.

[HiCrunchy]

Op has very cute eyes.

 

Very dateable, I would give him a solid 8.5. (Just cuz he isnt my type lol, but for other girls for sure a 10).

 

OP good things come to those who wait. I would relax and know u will find someone.

[LightWave93]

I think that based on the fact that OP has been argumentative and combative to pretty much every poster here trying to help him, that this particular facet of his personality is why he struggles to find dates. Women like a guy that is easy to talk to, not someone difficult.

 

OP: Ease up. Chill. Work on becoming less rigid and combative with....pretty much everyone.

 

"Argumentative and combative"?

 

Look, you may not like the answers I give to your posts, but I'm not here to spout off lies to fit your vision of my situation. I genuinely want help, at this point I'm even desperate for it, but I'm also not going to paint the wrong picture. I've had a handful of people assume it's because I'm ugly, socially inept, that it's to do with my age and that any feedback that's been given to me has been lies; when these things are factually inaccurate, then I am going to speak out against it.

 

And this is why, and not the first time on this forum, I have politely asked the members replying to my posts to assume for the purposes of the discussion that I am an attractive, socially capable man who's friends have not lied to him. Hell, I've already had one user say as much in this thread (as far as they can ascertain from images of me, anyway).

 

I am not trying to be dismissive of the help given, but you continue to revisit points that I have done and dusted time, and time, and time again over a three year period with literally hundreds of people. I have said as much, and still you persist on discussing them.

 

Also, I'm going to be "argumentative and combative" with your assumption that this alleged behavior of mine is what is off-putting to women. I don't argue or debate with women I meet, I talk to them as one human being to another, getting to know them, having a laugh...what I'd describe as typical, normal interaction. And even if I did possess this behavior you specify, then that wouldn't explain why I get few matches online...they haven't even had an opportunity to talk to me yet.

 

I am easy to talk to. Shoot me a PM and we can have a normal discussion about books or TV shows or where we live or whatever else. Your opinion of me is based on a thread asking for help, but anyone who takes the time to get to know me usually only has positives to say.

Edited June 26, 2018 by LightWave93

[d0nnivain]

I don't think LightWave93 is argumentative or combative. I do realize there's a frustration here & that is coming through. He's getting feedback from his peers & we're suggesting they may be wrong or being kind by telling him what he wants to here. We, the LS community, are making assumptions without all the data. You really can't assess why somebody can't get a date with talking to them in person. 90% of communication is the non verbal cues, all of which are missing from this on line only interaction.

 

LightWave93 -- at this point all I can offer is what I already suggested. Try to get one of the women friends to be your wingwoman to see if she can spot interested women you are inadvertently overlooking. I know you can see women hitting on your friends so you say you recognize the signs but sometimes it's harder to have a clear perspective on yourself. Also try a new place & do actually directly interact with Every woman there, not just the hottest ones. Dating is a numbers game so up your odds. Also consider finding people your own age, not just the other younger college kids in your classes. If you say you can't find them, check out the graduate school at your university.

 

I get that you think none of that will work but, dude, you haven't tried it so you don't really know. Try it. If it works, you will have a GF. If it doesn't you can come back here & tell me I told you so. Really, what have you got to lose?

[clia]

Well, if there is nothing wrong with you then you just need to keep plugging away and eventually it will happen. Dating is a huge numbers game. Put yourself out there so you are constantly meeting new women, flirt with them, ask some of them out, continue online dating as well, etc. You've had girlfriends and dates in the past, so it does occasionally happen for you.

 

In your previous threads you discussed self-confidence issues and issues with building relationships (friendships). It's possible your vibe is off and that is causing your problems. It's impossible for anyone online to tell you. (I know, I know, nothing's wrong and your friends have told you how awesome you are....)

[LightWave93]

In your previous threads you discussed self-confidence issues and issues with building relationships (friendships). It's possible your vibe is off and that is causing your problems. It's impossible for anyone online to tell you.

 

Self-confidence issues in the context on romantic / sexual / social success. I tend to do fairly well in academic, professional or other personal endeavors, but I've always found it extremely difficult to form bonds with people. That stems from bullying as a child, a poor relationship with my father and a traumatic experience with an ex partner; I've come leaps and bounds since the social-anxiety ridden person I once was, but clearly there are improvements to be made.

 

Fortunately, I've been more lucky this year meeting people I can form a bond with, and removed the toxic ones. Unfortunately that also means a reduced social circle and less opportunities.

 

(I know, I know, nothing's wrong and your friends have told you how awesome you are....)

 

Don't mock me.

 

I am open to criticism. Heck, I encourage it. The only way I've ever improved in life and grown as a person is by accepting my flaws and overcoming them. I am not fearful of criticism so long as it is constructive...

 

...however, in the context of this thread, the only reason why I have made a point about what people have said about me is to reinforce the idea that I'm not an indecent person suffering as a recent of being a slob, socially inept or some other overly negative characteristic. The only reason we've discussed it at great length is because people here chose not to believe me.

 

Clearly you're not fond of me. That's cool. Just don't make fun of me, it's unkind.

[clia]

Don't mock me.

 

I am open to criticism. Heck, I encourage it. The only way I've ever improved in life and grown as a person is by accepting my flaws and overcoming them. I am not fearful of criticism so long as it is constructive...

 

...however, in the context of this thread, the only reason why I have made a point about what people have said about me is to reinforce the idea that I'm not an indecent person suffering as a recent of being a slob, socially inept or some other overly negative characteristic. The only reason we've discussed it at great length is because people here chose not to believe me.

 

Clearly you're not fond of me. That's cool. Just don't make fun of me, it's unkind.

 

I don't even know what you are talking about. I've tried to give you helpful advice in this thread and don't have any feelings for you one way or the other. I said what I said because I suggested that something might be "off" about you in person, and i knew you would immediately write it off, as you did.

[LightWave93]

I get that you think none of that will work but, dude, you haven't tried it so you don't really know. Try it. If it works, you will have a GF. If it doesn't you can come back here & tell me I told you so. Really, what have you got to lose?

 

This is the part non of you seem to understand. I don't come to forums asking for help, getting the advice and not doing anything with it. Quite the opposite. I've tried everything people have been telling me over the last few years, with no change.

 

It's not for lack of trying. The advice simply doesn't work for me.

[LightWave93]

i knew you would immediately write it off, as you did.

 

No, I didn't.

 

Please stop replying if you're just going to keep saying I'm writing you off. It's unhelpful.

[d0nnivain]

This is the part non of you seem to understand. I don't come to forums asking for help, getting the advice and not doing anything with it. Quite the opposite. I've tried everything people have been telling me over the last few years, with no change.

 

It's not for lack of trying. The advice simply doesn't work for me.

 

The advice was to talk to EVERY women in a club. In another post you said you have never been the guy who talks directly to everyone in the club.

This is what you said in post # 49:

I don't mind talking to new people etc, but I don't tend to make direct approaches and simply see where the night takes me. For example a few nights back when I split a drink near someone, lol.

That is not following the advice. You letting the night take you wherever is not you taking control.

 

So which is it . . . are you following the advice we offered or not? Until you make a direct approach you won't get anywhere.

 

In another post you said

As for real life; I talk to women, but a large group (particularly attractive women) ignore me and those that don't become friends.

Is your goal to have a large following of admirers or find one nice woman to date? If the later, who cares how many reject you. All you have to do is find one that says yes. Moreover, the ones who become your friends, I can't help but wonder what cues you are missing that lead you to friendzone them or fail to make that move that would seal the romantic deal & get you a date / GF.

 

Are only hitting on the most beautiful women in the club . . . the ones with throngs of admirers who are looking for the hot rich guy? As a student you are not there yet. Know what I'm saying?

[LightWave93]

The advice was to talk to EVERY women in a club. In another post you said you have never been the guy who talks directly to everyone in the club.

 

This is what you said in post # 49: That is not following the advice. You letting the night take you wherever is not you taking control.

 

It seems I'm not being very clear, so I will attempt to clarify.

 

I go out to have fun with friends, first and foremost. That usually involves having a drink or two (or ten ) at a house before going to a bar / club. There, it's having a laugh and drinking with whoever's in our group, whether it entirely consists of people I know or a mix-up of people I do and don't know. Despite my earlier troubles in life, I'm a social guy, so I'll talk to anyone about anything.

 

In my experiences, I am not a guy that gets approached. I do not know why, especially considering I tend to be the more outgoing / confident one, and in my circle of friends I do tend to be the centerpiece, but that's just how it's always been. I don't know how my friends do it, heck I've never actually seen them make an effort, but if we sit down or dance near a group of people or whatever, then somehow strangers will converse with them. Same with my friends pulling or meeting someone of the opposite sex, it just seems to happen to them. I remember one time a male friend of mine was drunk, sat miserable in a corner and a really attractive blonde woman approached him for conversation. God I wish one day that would happen to me. So I just focus on having fun. I'll laugh and dance with my friends, they'll somehow meet new people, and I'll just go along with it. If I see an opportunity to talk to someone, I will. No expectations.

 

Is your goal to have a large following of admirers or find one nice woman to date? If the later, who cares how many reject you. All you have to do is find one that says yes. Moreover, the ones who become your friends, I can't help but wonder what cues you are missing that lead you to friendzone them or fail to make that move that would seal the romantic deal & get you a date / GF.

 

Either, honestly. I just want something. As I've said before, often in these threads the individual can get dates but not find "the one", or can't get dates but has no trouble getting sex. I cannot get anything, and it is soul destroying.

 

I'm failing to understand why having female friends is seen as a negative and that they "friendzoned" me. Some people just want to be friends with other people of the opposite sex. I've always got on better with women than I have men.

 

Are only hitting on the most beautiful women in the club . . . the ones with throngs of admirers who are looking for the hot rich guy? As a student you are not there yet. Know what I'm saying?

 

I would never approach the most beautiful women in a club because I know for absolute certainty they wouldn't go for me, and that is evident in the fact I don't even have friendships with such women. I don't "punch above my weight", though I don't even know what my league is quite frankly.

 

That said, I've witnessed stunners go for absolute plebs, so never understood the correlation there.

[d0nnivain]

So you admit that you haven't tried what I am about to propose AGAIN:

 

Do not pre-party. Go with a small group no more than 3 to a new place. While there drink more non-alcoholic drinks then alcoholic ones -- in essence be sober. Then talk to everyone. You initiate. You go up to them. You be sociable, be the life of the party, friendly & outgoing to everyone.

 

 

See if that gets you more opportunities to meet women who will go on a date with you. You have to be confident. You have to ask for the dance or the #.

[LightWave93]

If I see an opportunity to talk to someone, I will.

 

So you admit that you haven't tried what I am about to propose AGAIN:

 

Not sure what about the above wasn't clear? I talk to people, all the time. It's the only way I get to meet new people, as I'm never approached for conversation.

 

Basically, I do what you're suggesting me to do. Women aren't interested in me in that way, they will usually go after someone else.

[preraph]

I'm getting a vibe that he's much older than 25 and is totally convinced he still looks and acts 25 because young women are all he's interested in. Young people can always tell you're older no matter if you're well preserved or not. Some may not care, but they can certainly tell.

[LightWave93]

I'm getting a vibe that he's much older than 25 and is totally convinced he still looks and acts 25 because young women are all he's interested in. Young people can always tell you're older no matter if you're well preserved or not. Some may not care, but they can certainly tell.

 

...what?

 

I'm 25. What do you want, my birth certificate now?

 

Please leave this thread if you're just going to be ridiculous and spout this kind of crap. I'm here for help.

[ZA Dater]

Are you staying age-appropriate and not trying to date young ones? That's one of the most common mistakes. The other is thinking you're more attractive than you are and being picky about how a woman looks. I really believe most people can date if they are willing to keep lowering their attractiveness standard. I realize that's easier said than done.

 

 

With due respect this really isn't helpful to the OP. That's like saying go and buy a sweater you don't like and maybe if you wear it often enough you might end up liking it.

 

 

I honestly think its better to have nothing than someone you don't really want.

 

 

OP. How many people are meeting? What kind of work do you do?

[normal person]

And this is why, and not the first time on this forum, I have politely asked the members replying to my posts to assume for the purposes of the discussion that I am an attractive, socially capable man who's friends have not lied to him. Hell, I've already had one user say as much in this thread (as far as they can ascertain from images of me, anyway).

 

Your friends may have not lied to you, but they also might not be telling you the whole truth, the most accurate version of the truth, or their perceptions of things do not align with other peoples'. Any way you slice it, the whole reason you're here posting in abject misery is because all these things you believe about yourself are seemingly invisible, don't matter, or are offset by something. And that's what you refuse to accept.

 

...what?

 

I'm 25. What do you want, my birth certificate now?

 

Please leave this thread if you're just going to be ridiculous and spout this kind of crap. I'm here for help.

 

Calm down. That is help. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it won't be helpful to you. People know you're older. You insist that they don't. They know you're 25 and still in college for some reason. You insist that doesn't matter. That's a major problem as some people see it, and you don't think it is in the slightest. Yet here you are. Whatever defense you want to give for whatever potential issue, you still have the problem. So you shouldn't above any sort of examination.

 

This thread is becoming cyclical:

 

"Is the problem X?"

"Not possible, because of Y and Z."

"Well then it sounds like there's an issue with Y, and Z."

"Not possible. Trust me, that's not the case, and I won't entertain any more discussion of it."

 

You still want to believe things you've heard rather than the things that have actually happened to you that are in direct contradiction to the things you've heard. You just need to swallow whatever pride you're holding on to and accept that things might not be exactly as you think they are, regardless of what you've been told, because your experiences have shown you a dramatically different story. Until you're willing to do that, I don't think you're giving people the best chance to help you.

Edited June 26, 2018 by normal person