He planned a weekend trip with another woman, that I am not invited to

[Lorenza]

I think this scenario would be OK if the friend was an experienced climber and if their friendship was tested by some years of purely platonic interactions. Then I'd think they're just climbing partners who can focus on their common interest

[bathtub-row]

Also, my thoughts are these: would he be OK with it if you went on a trip with a good-looking 24, 25 year old man? How would he feel?

 

Apparently, reading other posts (and not going back to OP), she isn't very skilled?

 

OH WOW. I can almost imagine him "showing her the ropes" in hopes to "reel her in."

 

I'd, at this point, say you're unhappy with this relationship and to call the trip off. Either that or that he isn't allowed to go on another trip with this woman UNLESS you meet her first (in a context where you are getting to know her), OR if you come along.

 

I personally detest the word “allowed” in any relationship other than literal parent/child relationships. I say he can do as he pleases but if the trip happened, that would be the end of the line for me. His complete disrespect for me and the relationship is all I’d need to know.

[salparadise]

As a few of you suggested, I'm not going to try and forbid him from going, and will let him make his own decision about how he wants to proceed. Then I'll draw my conclusions and decide the next steps, depending on what happens. Thanks again for all the great advice... this situation has been really eating me up for the past few days, so I really appreciate you all.

 

I don't get the permissive attitude that a lot of young people have with regard to opposite-sex "friends" while in a relationship. It seems to be fashionable to have no boundaries.

 

One can rationalize almost anything, but males and females of a certain age are wired to fall in lust, do the deed and proliferate their genes. Put two young people with peak hormones and shared interests in close proximity for some amount of time, followed by the most obvious of overnight opportunities and biology is going to override pretty much any inhibition or social conformity.

 

What I don't quite understand is the boyfriend's seeming naiveté vs. shrewdness in setting the stage for all of this. You talk about your total lack of jealousy as if it's a badge of honor or something, but it's an important part of this. I wonder how that has been cultivated; it's certainly not inherent human nature.

 

I could be wrong, but I suspect that he has the hots for this girl and is playing you for a complete fool. Even if he's not actually planning a love fest weekend, the stage couldn't be set any better. And you're just letting it happen to avoid being perceived as jealous or uncool.

 

Personally, agree with those who said to tell him to pack ALL of his shyte and don't bother coming back. It's really your permissiveness that seems unusual, not the fact that he's up for banging a hot 20 year old for a weekend.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I don't get the permissive attitude that a lot of young people have with regard to opposite-sex "friends" while in a relationship. It seems to be fashionable to have no boundaries.

 

One can rationalize almost anything, but males and females of a certain age are wired to fall in lust, do the deed and proliferate their genes. Put two young people with peak hormones and shared interests in close proximity for some amount of time, followed by the most obvious of overnight opportunities and biology is going to override pretty much any inhibition or social conformity.

 

What I don't quite understand is the boyfriend's seeming naiveté vs. shrewdness in setting the stage for all of this. You talk about your total lack of jealousy as if it's a badge of honor or something, but it's an important part of this. I wonder how that has been cultivated; it's certainly not inherent human nature.

 

I could be wrong, but I suspect that he has the hots for this girl and is playing you for a complete fool. Even if he's not actually planning a love fest weekend, the stage couldn't be set any better. And you're just letting it happen to avoid being perceived as jealous or uncool.

 

Personally, agree with those who said to tell him to pack ALL of his shyte and don't bother coming back. It's really your permissiveness that seems unusual, not the fact that he's up for banging a hot 20 year old for a weekend.

 

100% agree with this. The only reason nothing comes out of situations such as these is because the girl is not into it. Then back to the safe gf/fiancé/wife. I have seen situations play out like this in my various groups of friends, repeatedly. Here they are 10 years later “happily” married, faithful in name only thanks to rejections from “friends”.

 

I just don’t get how people can be cool with this.

[phineas]

If a GF decided to go away for the weekend with a dude she'd be done.

Hell if she even considered it thinking i'd be ok with it she'd be gone regardless of if she went or not.

 

No way i'd even consider doing this if I had a GF.

 

There are things you simply do not do when you are with someone.

This is one of them.

 

Just LOL! at he picks a woman to go on this trip instead of some dude and acts like he doesn't know it's wrong.

 

He's looking to bang her if he hasn't already slept with her.

Does this fiancee even have that he's in a relationship in his FB status?

Not that it matters these days with some people.

Edited May 28, 2018 by phineas

[snowboy91]

I don't get the permissive attitude that a lot of young people have with regard to opposite-sex "friends" while in a relationship. It seems to be fashionable to have no boundaries.

 

One can rationalize almost anything, but males and females of a certain age are wired to fall in lust, do the deed and proliferate their genes. Put two young people with peak hormones and shared interests in close proximity for some amount of time, followed by the most obvious of overnight opportunities and biology is going to override pretty much any inhibition or social conformity.

 

I'm actually going to have to disagree with this. I don't buy into the idea that people should have to restrict their friendships on the basis of being of the opposite sex - it's hard enough trying to make good friends anyway. It is very common these days for people to have friends and friendship groups of both sexes - and I'll even go as far as to say it's highly beneficial for people to do so. As I've mentioned to others on this forum, a lot of my friends are female, and there is no way I'd consider sleeping with any of them (and they know this), I simply don't find them attractive.

 

That being said, I do understand the potential problems that arise when one partner has friends of the opposite sex (I'm that guy, and I've hit these problems with my partner before). One thing that helps greatly is getting to know your partner's friends (which is always a good thing no matter which way you look at it), and working out their dynamic. I always make sure my GF gets to see my friends early on and often - those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing and I ensure I don't hide anything.

 

In OP's situation, the parts I would find upsetting are:

 

a) he planned this trip to somewhere OP really wanted to go. To make a comparison, I'd be upset too if a close friend (as in, not my partner) decided to go somewhere awesome without me after talking about it for months.

 

b) He seems really naive about it. Surely he would recognise that it's a potential issue in the relationship, and take steps to put OP's mind at ease about the nature of the friendship.

 

c) He hasn't made plans to go on this same trip with OP. Similar to a).

[act00]

I'm going to echo everyone else. This little trip is inappropriate, and there's no way I'd be okay with it. In fact, I would have serious reservations about this relationship as a whole with their new weekly rock climbs alone. In addition, the fact that the very same type of trip that has been discussed but has not been forthcoming now materializes with quite ease with this other woman? I would be very upset and wary, jealous, extremely hurt.

 

This man is playing dumb. He knew how inappropriate it was when he planned this and knows very well now. The fact that he doesn't "get it" is just an act. As stated, maybe if he was 20 years old, he might need it spelled out in his naivete, but by the age of 32, I'm sorry, but how well this type of trip would go over for the partner can be learned just by movies and television alone, let alone by other interpersonal relationships.

 

There's something going on with this girl, and maybe nothing physical has happened, but emotionally there's something there, and this girl is probably crushing all over him, as I don't see why she'd dedicate so much time to him otherwise. Surely being involved in a group of climbers, there are other people she can plan climbing in the city with once a week, not just him.

 

OP, you are engaged to be married, and you have every right to express how hurt you are by the fact he planned a trip with her after you two have been talking about this very type of trip for weeks and nothing has come to fruition, and you have every right to express your unhappiness with this little trip planned in your absence, alone and one-on-one. The important thing is to try to keep your emotions in check and avoid anger and accusations.

 

If he can take a weekend rock climbing, why can't he take a weekend, maybe three days to go to your family thing?

[salparadise]

I'm actually going to have to disagree with this. I don't buy into the idea that people should have to restrict their friendships on the basis of being of the opposite sex - it's hard enough trying to make good friends anyway. It is very common these days... [...]

 

That being said, I do understand the potential problems that arise when one partner has friends of the opposite sex (I'm that guy, and I've hit these problems with my partner before).

 

You can rationalize as much as you want, but I think you'll find your perspective to be supported by few mature adults with significant relationship experience. You admit that this has been the basis of issues in your past relationships, yet you are convinced that you are entitled to prioritize opposite-sex "friendships" over a romantic partner's feelings and the resultant impact on the primary relationship. Even if you believe such friendships to be purely platonic, these involvements are always at the expense of the primary relationship. Most healthy people (meaning they have boundaries) get that intuitively. How old are you?

 

Now I'm not saying it's wrong to have opposite-sex friends, but the nature of such friendships has to be limited if you want to have a successful romantic relationship. Almost nobody has zero jealousy. I am saying that situations like the OP's go way beyond what most reasonable people consider appropriate. I'm not interested in slicing and dicing the particulars because you and I are never going to agree. I think you're intentionally naive because it benefits you.

[2much4]

You can rationalize as much as you want, but I think you'll find your perspective to be supported by few mature adults with significant relationship experience. You admit that this has been the basis of issues in your past relationships, yet you are convinced that you are entitled to prioritize opposite-sex "friendships" over a romantic partner's feelings and the resultant impact on the primary relationship. Even if you believe such friendships to be purely platonic, these involvements are always at the expense of the primary relationship. Most healthy people (meaning they have boundaries) get that intuitively. How old are you?

 

I don't think the previous poster meant it that way. I guess the point he was trying to make is OPs boyfriend should be more considerate.

 

Opposite sex friendships aren't "wrong". About half my close friends are men. I'd never go on a one on one holiday with a male friend though and certainly wouldn't play dumb if my partner voiced some concerns.

Edited May 28, 2018 by 2much4

[act00]

OP, I am curious to this situation on travel. His work schedule does not allow him to take time off for 8 days, but he has a weekend free that he can utilize for another form of travel. Why is it that he can't travel home with you for the weekend and head back home for work while you stay for the remainder?

[lakerman34]

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. I plan to talk with my fiance about this issue in detail tomorrow. I am going to do my best to stay calm and not get emotional or accusatory, but I am going to convey to him that I do not consider his actions considerate or appropriate for our relationship.

 

As a few of you suggested, I'm not going to try and forbid him from going, and will let him make his own decision about how he wants to proceed. Then I'll draw my conclusions and decide the next steps, depending on what happens. Thanks again for all the great advice... this situation has been really eating me up for the past few days, so I really appreciate you all.

 

I'm curious -- how did everything play out?

[PegNosePete]

Everyone on this site is so quick to point to "affair." I don't think that's normally the case.

Normally... meaning real world, I might agree with you. But on this site, it normally is. People come to this site when they know deep down that something is wrong. If you read threads on here this kind of thing there is ALWAYS an affair discovered when the OP does enough digging. Now maybe this case is the 1 in 1000 where there's no affair, but I doubt it.

 

There just isn't any proof.

Of course not. People who are having affairs don't normally just leave proof lying around. They hide it. You have to look for clues, circumstances, inappropriate interactions, red flags. And in this case the red flags are flying high! All the signs here point to affair, at least emotional and probably physical, and if it's not physical yet then it almost certainly will be when they go away together.

[S_A]

He's cheating IMO. Maybe the most hurtful thing in this whole scenario is that the OP's significant other thinks she is a dumbass.

 

Anyway, the trip itself is not inappropriate. The issue is that he is banging the 22 y/o.

Edited May 29, 2018 by S_A

[marky00]

I'm a guy... I've told my long term girlfriend on many occasions, if a guy comes along that is better than me and has more money (as this seems to be her main focus)... Go for it. I don't care if she stays or goes.

 

At this point, I'll just post what everyone wants to hear...

 

He is either going to replace his present girlfriend/fiancee with the young hottie or this is his one last chance to "sow his wild oats" before he gets married.

 

hijack this thread much?

[Miss Clavel]

Thank you for the feedback, everyone. I plan to talk with my fiance about this issue in detail tomorrow. I am going to do my best to stay calm and not get emotional or accusatory, but I am going to convey to him that I do not consider his actions considerate or appropriate for our relationship.

 

As a few of you suggested, I'm not going to try and forbid him from going, and will let him make his own decision about how he wants to proceed. Then I'll draw my conclusions and decide the next steps, depending on what happens. Thanks again for all the great advice... this situation has been really eating me up for the past few days, so I really appreciate you all.

 

 

if it were me i'd change my plans and go with them. i'd show up at their car with all my gear and a huge smile and plop my ass right down on the seat next to my man. lol.

 

or. just tell him you changed your plans. watch his eyes. don't listen, watch.

 

 

he knows that you wanted to do this with him. he knows.

 

what we don't know is what she knows.

 

what i know is that she more than likely, given her age and attractiveness either has a SO or is not interested in more than the outing and having a get away.

 

since you seemed convinced that because other men have cheated, he will cheat and hell he might if he thinks he has a chance with her, how will you stop him? don't you want to know his character before you get in deeper?

 

she might not be a cheater. she might smack his face. she might have respect for herself and other woman in committed relationships.

 

you can't make him not want someone else.

 

as others have said, before you got snippy, he should plan the special outing you wanted, but your arm aint broken and you can plan it yourself and present it to him. gradually you might be able to get on the same page.

 

no amount of trying to stop him or make him not be attracted to OW will ever work.

 

go with them or go on with your plans. either way, it's gonna hurt. they went, nothing happened. which shows he can plan a great climb, just not with you.

 

or he comes home and says their in love and he's moving out. hurt again.

 

or he comes home and says, she has b.o. can't stop farting at night and he missed you.

 

however. he still gave something you wanted, to someone else.

 

good luck

[atsumi]

I don't get the permissive attitude that a lot of young people have with regard to opposite-sex "friends" while in a relationship. It seems to be fashionable to have no boundaries.

 

One can rationalize almost anything, but males and females of a certain age are wired to fall in lust, do the deed and proliferate their genes. Put two young people with peak hormones and shared interests in close proximity for some amount of time, followed by the most obvious of overnight opportunities and biology is going to override pretty much any inhibition or social conformity.

 

What I don't quite understand is the boyfriend's seeming naiveté vs. shrewdness in setting the stage for all of this. You talk about your total lack of jealousy as if it's a badge of honor or something, but it's an important part of this. I wonder how that has been cultivated; it's certainly not inherent human nature.

 

I could be wrong, but I suspect that he has the hots for this girl and is playing you for a complete fool. Even if he's not actually planning a love fest weekend, the stage couldn't be set any better. And you're just letting it happen to avoid being perceived as jealous or uncool.

 

Personally, agree with those who said to tell him to pack ALL of his shyte and don't bother coming back. It's really your permissiveness that seems unusual, not the fact that he's up for banging a hot 20 year old for a weekend.

 

I don't agree with your viewpoint regarding same-sex friendships. I have always had plenty of platonic male friends (because my hobbies/interests are very male-dominated) and I am certainly capable of maintaining those friendships without crossing any boundaries. Just because we have different genitalia does not mean we are programmed to automatically start banging the moment an opportunity arises. Some people simply aren't attracted to each other in a sexual way, and you're also ignoring complicated factors like sexual orientation, morality, basic human decency, etc.

 

That said, what is important is how the significant other perceives these friendships. I certainly wouldn't say that I'm completely without jealousy - if I was, this plan of his wouldn't have bothered me in the first place. I can't make him stay faithful if he chooses to go cheat - all I can do is be clear about what I am / am not OK with in our relationship. Mutual respect and communication with your SO is essential for making opposite-sex friendships healthy and doable. In this case, my fiance certainly wasn't doing this right. He was being either very naive or very sketchy.

[atsumi]

OP, I am curious to this situation on travel. His work schedule does not allow him to take time off for 8 days, but he has a weekend free that he can utilize for another form of travel. Why is it that he can't travel home with you for the weekend and head back home for work while you stay for the remainder?

 

My family trip is taking place outside of the country and involves long and expensive flights, so it's not something I would expect him to just join for a couple of days - financially and time-wise, it doesn't make sense unless he was able to take the week off work (which he can't).

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

OP, have you discussed this with your fiance yet?

[atsumi]

An update on my situation - over the weekend, I had a long and eye-opening conversation with my fiance. I walked away with the conclusion that he was really being quite naive, thoughtless, and inconsiderate, rather than actively malicious or shady.

 

When I explained to him that I was hurt by the fact that he was planning a trip without me, he admitted that he was being selfish because he just wanted to go on the trip as soon as possible. He was thinking that he would be able to go on another climbing trip with me later in the summer, and admitted that this was an unrealistic hope given his work schedule.

 

As far as the issue with his female climbing partner, he said that he didn't think about how going on a trip with a woman I had never met might be inappropriate / crossing boundaries. Sounds hard to believe, I know - but he really can be very clueless at times. He showed me their messages - apparently she had invited him on this trip, and it was not really clear whether or not other people would be coming or not (the other friend of hers was cc'ed on the thread). When I told him that I considered a trip like this inappropriate in this situation, he was very apologetic and seemed sincerely upset that he had acted in a way that I perceived as sketchy. He told me that he is not going to climb with this girl anymore because he doesn't want me to be uncomfortable (even though I didn't say anything about forbidding him from climbing with her). He then rescheduled his other weekly climbing plans, so that he could go with a male coworker instead. He had never climbed with this coworker before, but said that he recently found out this guy is a fellow climber, and should have asked him earlier instead of looking online for partners.

 

Long story short, he was extremely apologetic about both not planning a trip with me, trying to plan it when I couldn't join, and acting in a sketchy way with this 22 year old girl. He then canceled all his plans with her, rescheduled his weekly climbing appointments to go with a male friend instead, and started planning the summer weekend trip with me. All in all, I am satisfied with this course of action. Obviously he could still be trying to lie or minimize the situation to me, but there is no way I could know that, and I chose to believe him.

[BluesPower]

An update on my situation - over the weekend, I had a long and eye-opening conversation with my fiance. I walked away with the conclusion that he was really being quite naive, thoughtless, and inconsiderate, rather than actively malicious or shady.

 

When I explained to him that I was hurt by the fact that he was planning a trip without me, he admitted that he was being selfish because he just wanted to go on the trip as soon as possible. He was thinking that he would be able to go on another climbing trip with me later in the summer, and admitted that this was an unrealistic hope given his work schedule.

 

As far as the issue with his female climbing partner, he said that he didn't think about how going on a trip with a woman I had never met might be inappropriate / crossing boundaries. Sounds hard to believe, I know - but he really can be very clueless at times. He showed me their messages - apparently she had invited him on this trip, and it was not really clear whether or not other people would be coming or not (the other friend of hers was cc'ed on the thread). When I told him that I considered a trip like this inappropriate in this situation, he was very apologetic and seemed sincerely upset that he had acted in a way that I perceived as sketchy. He told me that he is not going to climb with this girl anymore because he doesn't want me to be uncomfortable (even though I didn't say anything about forbidding him from climbing with her). He then rescheduled his other weekly climbing plans, so that he could go with a male coworker instead. He had never climbed with this coworker before, but said that he recently found out this guy is a fellow climber, and should have asked him earlier instead of looking online for partners.

 

Long story short, he was extremely apologetic about both not planning a trip with me, trying to plan it when I couldn't join, and acting in a sketchy way with this 22 year old girl. He then canceled all his plans with her, rescheduled his weekly climbing appointments to go with a male friend instead, and started planning the summer weekend trip with me. All in all, I am satisfied with this course of action. Obviously he could still be trying to lie or minimize the situation to me, but there is no way I could know that, and I chose to believe him.

 

Well, OK... I guess you guys must be really young.

 

I say that because a guy would really have to be completely clueless (if not down right stupid) to not see that this was not a good idea no matter what.

 

Are you going to have to explain things at this level to your HUSBAND in the future?

 

Because if I tried that with my GF, she would cut my nuts off, in a nice way of course...

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I'm glad to hear the update and that he made the changes he did. I hope they are sincere.

 

I still have trouble believing it never entered his head that going away with a 22-year-old girl while engaged to a 32-year-old woman might be disrespectful, at the very least, to you. I don't' think he was deliberately being malicious either, but he should have had the good sense and judgment to immediately say NO when she asked him. I wonder what kind of vibe they had going during their weekly climbs for her to even have the gall to ask another woman's fiance on a weekend trip!

[ExpatInItaly]

I don't believe a 32-year-old man is that clueless.

 

He knew. But when he realized that you are not clueless and have become suspicious about his friendship with this woman, he relented and realized he needed to put down some boundaries so things wouldn't take a wrong turn.

 

It's good that he's not going, yes. What's concerning that he apparently needed this spelled out to him more than once.

[Gaeta]

I also don't believe a man his age is that clueless. He back tracked when you made him aware you had boundaries and you could not be taken for a fool that easily. I am glad at the end he picked you. I hope this will make him see he needs to become a man.

[bathtub-row]

Good to hear! It sounds like he’s really taking your feelings into consideration. If you hadn’t said anything, I think that would’ve been an invitation for him walk all over you. I’m glad things worked out.

[lakerman34]

As a 27 year old man with only some dating experience, if I spoke to my girlfriend about something that I thought was blatantly obvious, and she told me that she wasn't aware, and she changed her plans accordingly, in that moment, I'd probably feel pretty good.

 

HOWEVER,

 

My gut would tell me something is seriously wrong. There is NO WAY she could possibly think that I was THAT comfortable with her acting in that way, and there is NO WAY that any self-respecting lady would allow me to find some random woman on the internet and then invite her to go do activities together, especially an activity that could potentially be a contact sport.

 

Unless you're in an open relationship and you are both following the rules of said relationship, I still smell fish here.

 

Obviously, he's your fiancee, and it's not easy to just drop a fiancee like that. I wouldn't be surprised if he just tells the young lady to "act cool" and still goes on vacation with her.

 

I'd say you'd be right to have your guard up, and be on the lookout for weird behavior.

 

Once in a while, I send a text that I wouldn't want my girlfriend to see (for example: once in a while, I need to rant about something she did that I didn't like, so I'll talk to my friend. More therapeutic than everything, I end up talking to her afterwards and we square it away. I decide to delete these conversations b/c no need for her to see it).

 

He probably deletes those sexier convos "just in case" too. Delete the evidence. He'd be stupid not to.