Another one bites the dust?

November 10, 2017

Again, there's a difference between 1. not trusting someone, considering them liars, duplicitous and evasive and 2. getting to know someone as you decide whether or not they are trustworthy.

You seem to be confusing the two in your above quote.

I am really not confusing them, kamille! I have been on several dates with several people I would consider liar,s, duplicitous, and evasive, and they have been fun.

Anyway, I respect your viewpoint. I guess I just see it as not so black/white

November 10, 2017

I am really not confusing them, kamille! I have been on several dates with several people I would consider liar,s, duplicitous, and evasive, and they have been fun.

Anyway, I respect your viewpoint. I guess I just see it as not so black/white

Again, consider dating only people you trust. It might diminish the anxiety you've expressed here and elsewhere about dating.

There's plenty of fun to be had out there, and plenty of great people. No need to waste time on people you don't trust.

November 10, 2017

But it's not black and white. Evil liar / good person who never lies. Many people do white lies...That's what he did. He is a messy - really messy, loud flirt has it all over FB so he had to be white-lie sneaky to cover it up. But that was to remain consistent in a romantic relationship context...

Maybe they wouldn't mind having fun with a guy like this with no sex involved or even just being friends with a guy like this. If he asked her about it she can be honest. & =come back with an answer quicker and more clearly than he did

Cookies, not every person is driven/engaged with social media. I kid you not.

I do understand where you are coming from in this particular circumstance with ES: He is an orbiter to whoever this woman is on his FB....because he is an adamant orbiter, he won't properly invest in a relationship with ES. Woman is enjoying his orbit and probably will also yank his chain should he attempt to leave it.

Oh well.

By the by, sorry ES for hypothesizing your love life to this extent.

None of this adds up to a hill of beans if the two of them hit it off and make a go of it. So what? They barely know each other. There really is something to be said for 'he plays the field till he doesn't' or some such.

I think that ES needs to do what is comfortable for her...bearing in mind that/that was really quick.

November 10, 2017

I was just saying he is quite likely getting into white lies (future faking, 'dogs/cats' FB etc) to sleep with her faster. It's not like he's harassing her.

Emotions reflect observations, no?

Again, trust is very different from your second scenario of him suggesting sex. There's nothing inherently untrustworthy about suggesting sex (which, again, is different from pushing for sex #metoo)

And trust is not a characteristic he has - it's an emotion she feels: does she trust him or not? Everything she has written since adding him on Facebook suggests she doesn't trust him. It's not a binary emotion no. Trust is earned after all. But once you get to distrust? That is a definitive emotion.

November 10, 2017

Also, given that we had 4 dates I would soon be expected to go to his home or invite him to mine, have sex with him. All those acts with a stranger that I met on a dating ap and that are way more intimate than adding someone on social media.

I'm asked to take a "leap of faith" and give "benefit of the doubt". Yet it's totally fine that he won't take a leap of faith in adding me on Facebook? Wow just wow.

There is a HUGE difference between adding on Facebook and Instagram. It's common to add someone to your IG on the first date or even before you meet. Many list their IG address right on their Tinder or OLD profile. I just got a number from a girl yesterday and she immediately added me on IG. Facebook, is a whole 'nother story. Nobody lists their Facebook page on OLD. My Facebook account is for actual REAL friends and not acquaintances and fake friends. I have a ton of private info that I share with friends and family that I don't want a complete stranger to see. Yes, I'd rather exchange bodily fluids with a woman I just met than friend them on Facebook. I don't want them to know my birthday, place of employment, complete educational history, names of all my relatives and exes before we're intimate and have some trust. They're halfway to identify theft or some serious stalking. I've NEVER friended anyone I'm dating before we are exclusive AND sleeping together. Nor have they EVER requested it. That you really see this as a "wow just wow" tells me you may be too paranoid and distrusting right now to healthily date right now...

November 10, 2017

Again, consider dating only people you trust. It might diminish the anxiety you've expressed here and elsewhere about dating.

There's plenty of fun to be had out there, and plenty of great people. No need to waste time on people you don't trust.

what do you mean "elsewhere",kamille ???Are you stalking my SM?

Cookies, not every person is driven/engaged with social media. I kid you not.

I do understand where you are coming from in this particular circumstance with ES: He is an orbiter to whoever this woman is on his FB....because he is an adamant orbiter, he won't properly invest in a relationship with ES. Woman is enjoying his orbit and probably will also yank his chain should he attempt to leave it.
Oh well.

By the by, sorry ES for hypothesizing your love life to this extent.

None of this adds up to a hill of beans if the two of them hit it off and make a go of it. So what? They barely know each other. There really is something to be said for 'he plays the field till he doesn't' or some such.

I think that ES needs to do what is comfortable for her...bearing in mind that/that was really quick.

I never said that. I just said at least everyone under 40. Okay, maybe not everyone, but at least 99%.

I agree with you about the latter part...go out & have fun. If I nixed every guy who blew a little smoke or obscured stuff to look better than he was...well, let's just say i wouldn't be going as much

Edited November 10, 2017 by Cookiesandough

November 10, 2017

Emotions reflect observations, no?

Ha! If only. Then anxiety and cognitive distortions wouldn't exist.

And in the instance of this thread, emotions preceded observation.

November 10, 2017

This is why it would be easy dating me. I have nothing at all on my facebook page, I don't have a twitter or instagram account and I would rather phone than text. I just don't care about this social media crap. I prefer the real world.

November 10, 2017

I agree with you about the latter part...go out & have fun. If I nixed every guy who blew a little smoke or obscured stuff to look better than he was...well, let's just say i wouldn't be going as much

I think your approach is more exploratory, and Kamille's is more goal oriented, that's why it looks different.

I'd say the exploratory approach can be very valuable for people that are not in a rush and more importantly - not easily getting attached. The goal oriented approach is great for people on a timeline to get into relationship, and for people that have more defined idea of their relationship desires in mind.

In OP's case: she seem to be somewhat in between the two, so it is hard to give good advice.

November 10, 2017

I think your approach is more exploratory, and Kamille's is more goal oriented, that's why it looks different.

I'd say the exploratory approach can be very valuable for people that are not in a rush and more importantly - not easily getting attached. The goal oriented approach is great for people on a timeline to get into relationship, and for people that have more defined idea of their relationship desires in mind.

In OP's case: she seem to be somewhat in between the two, so it is hard to give good advice.

My goal is to like the people in my life. And therefore lead a rich life -full of fun - supported by great friends and perhaps one day a great guy.

I have no timeline to get into a relationship and in fact don't get easily attached.

Which allows me to date guys and get to know them and "explore". In fact my attachment style is such that : I don't get so anxious that I distrust these guys before even getting to know them.

Theory doesn't really hold.

November 10, 2017

Glad you found approach that works for you.

By 'explore' I meant more in terms of pushing boundaries - interacting with people that include ones you don't really like and may or may not keep in your life because of that.

By 'goal' I didn't mean necessarily LTR or marriage. Getting new friends in your life is pretty defined relationship goal.

Anyway, hopefully each of us will find what/who they really need/want.

My goal is to like the people in my life. And therefore lead a rich life -full of fun - supported by great friends and perhaps one day a great guy.

I have no timeline to get into a relationship and in fact don't get easily attached.
Which allows me to date guys and get to know them and "explore". In fact my attachment style is such that : I don't get so anxious that I distrust these guys before even getting to know them.

Theory doesn't really hold.

November 10, 2017

In OP's case: she seem to be somewhat in between the two, so it is hard to give good advice.

I agree. Doesn't seem like she's in she has any urgency for a committed relationship, but she's very much open to one. Therefore, I think it would be wise of her to err on the side of caution and listen to her own intuition about this. Better considering her own cognitive biases than anyone else's lol

I never go out with anyone I don't like, but I wouldn't file people who I think are shady or have lied to me under 'do not like or want to associate with whatsoever'. I don't operate under the belief that everyone I go out with or associate with whatsoever needs to remain a permanent fixture in my life

Edited November 10, 2017 by Cookiesandough

November 10, 2017

Still seeing him??? :eek:That is madness. You ladies have made him out to be the Devil himself. What woman would spend one more moment with this sociopath?

OP, in the interests of full transparency I think you need to get him to this thread. Give him a chance to know what he's signing up for.

lol, yes agreed. Why exactly? Why in the world would you go on a date with someone who you had these sorts of feelings about? You don't trust him and you don't think good things about him.

November 10, 2017

Based on the information shared I think the guy is most likely untrustworthy but not in some terrible way (then I'd say 'danger! don't go there'), more in a not too smart player type (feeding ES with whatever suits the situation to get in her pants). The only real red flag I see is lack of online presence (if I understood correctly) because that's near impossible for a professional to be 'invisible' online.

Why keep seeing him? To convince herself she's making the right decision if she dumps him, or, why not, prove us all wrong by gathering new information from him?

Sorry I don't agree. This doesn't compute for someone who claims to be fine alone and not need or want a bf desperately. Someone who felt that way truly and deeply and had no doubt about her own judgements about this guy being on point, would not want to waste her time because she would already have enough information about him. She doesn't need to prove anything to any of us (not to mention she seems to be quite capable at coming up with many plausibilities to justify whatever whim she wants to justify regarding her dating this guy and what he's about--so she absolutely would be able to do that and I suspect that is exactly what she will do if she goes out with him again).

November 10, 2017

lol, yes agreed. Why exactly? Why in the world would you go on a date with someone who you had these sorts of feelings about? You don't trust him and you don't think good things about him.

She obviously thinks enough good about him to find him worthy of a 5th date. Maybe we can't see all of it and are getting most of the 'bad'. People do tend to talk more about their problems than the good things

November 10, 2017

She obviously thinks enough good about him to find him worthy of a 5th date. Maybe we can't see all of it and are getting most of the 'bad'. People do tend to talk more about their problems than the good things

I agree with the bolded--i suspect that those of us that have said she is acting via fear or anxiety driven thoughts clearly see that she is thinking lots of bad things about him because she is anxious and fearful of getting hurt.

However, while I agree with you statement that people talk about their problems as a way of venting or trying to find a resolution or an answer, I wouldn't want to date someone who had such suspicious thoughts about me (if he actually only knew!!) and I can't really see why a rational person would waste her time going on a date with him.

A few posts back you said something about going out with guys even though you didn't trust them or see long term with them or whatever, that makes sense for what I've seen of your posts over time--not so for ES. She comes off as someone who really really wants (maybe even desperately so) a serious relationship. Her methods of going about it may be rigid and not based on facts or getting to know someone but considering the opinion she has developed about him, there's really no reason to go out with him.

If he knew she had gone through all this conjecture about him and is a decent guy who's not a doormat, he wouldn't want to go out with her either truthfully. She also has never struck me as a person who is out for free dinners or truly up for meeting people and making friends, seeing where the night takes her like a free spirit sooooo there is no reason to go--unless at the back of her mind she knows she is being irrational, not serving herself in her goal of wanting to have a relationship. TBH, I think on some level she has a shred of knowing that--that is the only real reason to go.

November 10, 2017

The pictures are mostly of one female friend. They go out alone on date like activities constantly. They take pictures of themselves with him kissing her cheek, arm around her waist, her sitting on his lap. The mutual friends comment on their pictures stuff like "you two are perfect for each other if only you would get it together". Female friends are one thing, but they look like a couple/FWB/something other than platonic. He constantly shares memories of them pictured together with cheek kissing, him holding her from the back around the waist. Other female friends all look like group friends and are no biggie.

Also the days he told me he was busy with unspecific activities, he was actually out with her (as per tags on FB). He never mentioned her to me once. He talks extensively what he does all day but when he is out with her he says generic stuff like "I was out all day" and changes the topic immediately (that was before I had access to his FB). I mean, if they are truly platonic with no romantic interest, he would have no problem mentioning it. It also matches up the incosistent texting - one text per day were days he was with her.

He has also hid what's posted on his timeline from me now.

Still nothing shady? Still no white lies? I am genuinely curious if women here would be bothered by this in a man they have started dating? Especially Kamille and others that have defended him.

ES,

I would 100% be bothered by this because on some level, this is deceptive behavior

But on the same side of the coin, I agree with another poster (Midwest?) who said when you start to unfairly assume/suspect things, stop dating

In this case, I dont think he's being transparent with you. Pictures of him being kissed on the cheek, hugging, out on date-like nights with some woman...thats not ok. I mean, even if its platonic between them, why would he subject a potential partner to that? Doesnt make sense to me.

Thats why in my previous post I said there is a reason why he's blowing your phone up one day and silence the next. I stand by that. And... now it looks like you've found your reason for it.

I fully believe we should never go looking for problems where there are none. But this early on, he's not putting his best foot forward. Where there's smoke, theres fire. If I were in your shoes I'd feel the same. I mean, come on.... what are you supposed to think when you see pics of his snuggling up with another woman over and over on fb. I dont care what kind of past experiences you've had.... thats got to raise unsettling questions

If I were you, I'd next him

November 10, 2017

Why keep seeing him? To convince herself she's making the right decision if she dumps him, or, why not, prove us all wrong by gathering new information from him?

You speak as if the OP is the only human being in this equation.

If this man were to have an inkling that all this is going on behind the scenes, he would have to be a very unstable individual to have any interest in further involvement. If she were all about "full disclosure" all of this would be happening between the two of them and not here.

I am not "defending" the man or advising any leaps of faith. I'm supportive of the OP following her intuition. She has said no positive thing about him since perhaps the 2nd page or so. She may well be right. Regardless, she thinks poorly of him, does not trust him and has lost interest. Why all this sturm und drang? To use a popular phrase, it's a nothingburger.

November 10, 2017

I think we all know where this is going to end up

On the curb on trash night

IMO, it belongs there

Very fishy...

November 10, 2017

I agree with the bolded--i suspect that those of us that have said she is acting via fear or anxiety driven thoughts clearly see that she is thinking lots of bad things about him because she is anxious and fearful of getting hurt.

However, while I agree with you statement that people talk about their problems as a way of venting or trying to find a resolution or an answer, I wouldn't want to date someone who had such suspicious thoughts about me (if he actually only knew!!) and I can't really see why a rational person would waste her time going on a date with him.

A few posts back you said something about going out with guys even though you didn't trust them or see long term with them or whatever, that makes sense for what I've seen of your posts over time--not so for ES. She comes off as someone who really really wants (maybe even desperately so) a serious relationship. Her methods of going about it may be rigid and not based on facts or getting to know someone but considering the opinion she has developed about him, there's really no reason to go out with him.

If he knew she had gone through all this conjecture about him and is a decent guy who's not a doormat, he wouldn't want to go out with her either truthfully. She also has never struck me as a person who is out for free dinners or truly up for meeting people and making friends, seeing where the night takes her like a free spirit sooooo there is no reason to go--unless at the back of her mind she knows she is being irrational, not serving herself in her goal of wanting to have a relationship. TBH, I think on some level she has a shred of knowing that--that is the only real reason to go.

I understand. Thank you. I am an anxious-type too, so I understand the more pessimistic perspective of things and there is a case to be made for it but I won't go into that, but I will say I would say that I think it may be a bit of a personality thing, or maybe even a cultural thing, as No_Go mentioned.

I think how ES couches things seem dire to us, but that's just how she spins the situation. Even her thread title is spun negatively. I don't think she actually felt overall negatively about this guy. Lucky for us, it makes for a more interesting read. I agree with you she doesn't seem like a free spirit, but I don't think anyone who comes here for advice dating or relationship advice really is, despite our different desires. Most of us are hyper-analytical and maybe a lot harbor some kind of tendency towards worry, whether natural or learned, so others' drama seems more appealing to us(often we want to prevent harm befalling another person). I was going somewhere with this...Oh yeah. I think there there is a slight exaggeration to it but that she is not in fact desperate at all, it's more in the tone of her posts

Anyway, I definitely see what you are saying.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Cookiesandough

November 10, 2017

I agree with the bolded--i suspect that those of us that have said she is acting via fear or anxiety driven thoughts clearly see that she is thinking lots of bad things about him because she is anxious and fearful of getting hurt.

However, while I agree with you statement that people talk about their problems as a way of venting or trying to find a resolution or an answer, I wouldn't want to date someone who had such suspicious thoughts about me (if he actually only knew!!) and I can't really see why a rational person would waste her time going on a date with him.

A few posts back you said something about going out with guys even though you didn't trust them or see long term with them or whatever, that makes sense for what I've seen of your posts over time--not so for ES. She comes off as someone who really really wants (maybe even desperately so) a serious relationship. Her methods of going about it may be rigid and not based on facts or getting to know someone but considering the opinion she has developed about him, there's really no reason to go out with him.

If he knew she had gone through all this conjecture about him and is a decent guy who's not a doormat, he wouldn't want to go out with her either truthfully. She also has never struck me as a person who is out for free dinners or truly up for meeting people and making friends, seeing where the night takes her like a free spirit sooooo there is no reason to go--unless at the back of her mind she knows she is being irrational, not serving herself in her goal of wanting to have a relationship. TBH, I think on some level she has a shred of knowing that--that is the only real reason to go.

See, you have no idea who I'm. I'm very much a free spirit. I still do occasional activities with exes with zero desire for a relationship just because they are fun. I have rejected close to 40 guys from OLD i met this year. If I was that desparate for a relationship that's not exactly how it would go. Perhaps you are projecting your own desparation and inability to be happy alone?

Anyway it's a waste of my time to defend myself to an online rando. The thread had some good advice at the start and then it disitegrated into inaccurate extrapolations and character attacks.

I never said there will the 5th date or that I plan to keep seeing this guy. So again, you are wrong.

November 10, 2017

This guy is particularly friendly with a female friend while single. He is being judged as not relationship material as a result. Fair enough, we each have our own standards. ES, do you disclose all of your activities while single to men you're dating? This would be part of full disclosure.

November 10, 2017

This is why it would be easy dating me. I have nothing at all on my facebook page, I don't have a twitter or instagram account and I would rather phone than text. I just don't care about this social media crap. I prefer the real world.

If this thread is anything to go by it wouldnt be easy dating you- the woman would stay awake night and day second guessing why she can't find your facebook. Obviously because you have one filled full of hot women under an assumed name. You are better off just having an easily found facebook page just to give yourself an easy life

November 10, 2017

what do you mean "elsewhere",kamille ???Are you stalking my SM?
I never said that. I just said at least everyone under 40. Okay, maybe not everyone, but at least 99%.

I agree with you about the latter part...go out & have fun. If I nixed every guy who blew a little smoke or obscured stuff to look better than he was...well, let's just say i wouldn't be going as much

No, I will say this again. There are some people who are invested in social media. Age is not a factor.

ES, now that you have had your dating situation dissected properly (hmm)...what is your take?

November 10, 2017

If this thread is anything to go by it wouldnt be easy dating you- the woman would stay awake night and day second guessing why she can't find your facebook. Obviously because you have one filled full of hot women under an assumed name. You are better off just having an easily found facebook page just to give yourself an easy life

xD

Oh I want to amend something I said before...I guess 'free spirited' is incorrect. People can still be free spirited!,, I meant I think worry-free, go-with-the-flow types would balk at dissecting behavior

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