Is paying for dates a solution? [I.e. An "arrangement" type scenario?]

[pteromom]

Just caught up with this thread.

 

A few things:

 

- You are an interesting case. You are very stubborn about wanting to be who you are, yet quite hard on yourself - almost MEAN to yourself- at the same time. Put some thought into why you feel so strongly that you need to defend your "nice, gracious" personality. Are you maybe afraid that if you don't hold on tightly to who you want to be, that the anger and cynicism will take over?

 

- A therapist is NOT there to judge you. Nor to tell you what to do. A good therapist will simply help you think things through. They will give you insight and space to allow light bulbs to go off in your head. Seeing a therapist doesn't mean you are broken or crazy. Just means that you could use someone who is impartial to bounce things off. Think about it. I believe it could be VERY helpful for you.

 

- You seem to be focused on not being attractive or date-able. Obviously, I don't know you, but I don't find that true. You seem articulate and sharp and interesting. What is it you are looking for? You say that the guys who are "successful with women" are all the same. And if you mean the guys who are able to go pick a different girl up every night, then yeah, they are similar. But if you are talking "success" as in finding a partner, look harder! There are lots of married guys who are just plain unattractive. Some of them are even married to beautiful women who are way out of their "league" (if you believe in such a thing.)

 

The keys to dating:

- make yourself AVAILABLE. Don't go out once a weekend, sit in a bar, then go home frustrated when nobody talks to you. Use EVERY avenue open to you. Online dating, social media, local clubs/hobbies/get togethers, telling your married coworkers you are looking if they know anyone, talking to cashiers and bank tellers and other people you come across in your daily life (this is where the smiling comes in)... quantity is your friend and dating is a numbers game.. Casting a wide net means you are more likely to catch something.

 

- be yourself. Don't bother trying to be what you think women want. It just comes across as insincere. And even if you are good at it, you will be attracting a woman who is attracted to THAT GUY rather than to you. How long do you want to put on that act? Just be you. BUT try to be the best version of yourself...engage with people. Smile. Chat. I know it is awkward, but the more you do it, the less awkward it will become.

 

- when the time comes, BE BOLD. You talked about a group of tourists who were out prowling, but you didn't talk to them or pursue anything. Why not? Just because you ASSUMED they wouldn't be interested. But what would you have lost if you had tried anyway? As it is, you walked away with nothing. You maybe had a chance there... Even if you aren't interested in a one-nighter at this point, you can look at this as practice.

 

- The best way to talk to people? Get them to talk about themselves. People love to talk about themselves! Ask questions based on what is going on around you at the time. When she shares anything about herself, act interested. Ask follow up questions. Interject things about yourself (then circle it back to her.)

 

- don't take NO personally. There are lots of reasons a girl may say no. Most of them have NOTHING to do with you. Maybe she has a boyfriend. Maybe she has a girlfriend. Maybe she just broke up and isn't ready. Maybe she has a very specific taste (only likes dark haired Spanish guys). Maybe she is scared too. Maybe your eyes look like her dad's eyes and it freaks her out. Maybe she feels fat that day and can't reciprocate flirtation and interest because she's down on herself. Maybe she is moving next month and doesn't want to start something. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to assume that you are awesome and that the reason for no is something outside of you. And yeah - maybe sometimes it's you. But you don't need to know that, or take it in. Not to mention, even if it IS you, that doesn't mean something is wrong with YOU. Maybe her guy-picker is broken or she is really damaged and messed up. You just don't know what is going on inside someone else.

 

I don't think you are as hopeless as you think you are. If you are not interested in a therapist, consider buying some books. Not picking-up-girls books, but books on confidence, communication, flirting, overcoming shyness, etc.

[ZA Dater]

I think it is very easy to go about the world and dismiss people right left and centre, we can always find fault as to why they are never "our" kind of people.

ZA dater has it down to a fine art and it means he doesn't really have to engage with anyone he doesn't already know, or anyone who doesn't fit into his narrow definition of what he thinks he wants. (but how does he know what he really wants if he never interacts with anyone).

 

With that MO, he is never rejected, BUT he never has any real social interaction either.

Until he breaks down the huge wall he has built around himself, and embraces life, then he will always be alone.

 

Maybe paying for dates is about being "in control", but what he cannot control is the stilted conversation, the long pauses, the total disconnect when his paid for date realises they have nothing in common, and ZA Dater does not have the social skills to rescue the situation.

 

Until he breaks out of his comfort zone and can socially interact with anyone whoever they are, then dates, paid for or not will always be a problem.

 

A therapist, life coach, dating coach could all help here, but I guess ZA Dater is too proud to ask for such help in the real world.

I guess, he doesn't want to be "judged", but better to be "judged and found wanting" by a professional person whose job it is to help, than to be judged and found wanting by all and sundry ad infinitum.

 

Its strange the very thing I am being accused of, dismissing people is pretty much what everyone else does on a daily basis. In that way I am not unique, it becomes really easy to dismiss people when they dismiss you. I have interacted with enough people to know get a fairly good idea what I like and what I don't like and likewise I have a pretty good idea where I have chances and where I do not.

 

Saying the conversation is stilted is quite a stretch, a few years ago I happened to meet a Russian lady, here profession of taking her clothes off was frowned upon but that didn't take away the fact in this social setting she was an interesting person and we were able to converse easily and there was substance to her, she could talk about subjects whereas these OK Cupid dates all sing the same tune.

 

Yes you are right my MO is to not be rejected, its such a epically bad feeling I'd rather not feel it unless I actually thought I had a realistic chance with the person to begin with.

 

Your last paragraph is quite provocative. Irrespective who I went to see I would still be judged, if people want to judge me so be it but I am certainly not paying to be judged by someone who themselves may be useless at dating. My approach to everything will see me judged irrespective, either I am too nice, not dominant enough, not smart enough, no outgoing enough, too shy, the list frankly is endless, the number of compliments I have ever received from ladies can be measured on one hand.

[ZA Dater]

Just caught up with this thread.

 

A few things:

 

- You are an interesting case. You are very stubborn about wanting to be who you are, yet quite hard on yourself - almost MEAN to yourself- at the same time. Put some thought into why you feel so strongly that you need to defend your "nice, gracious" personality. Are you maybe afraid that if you don't hold on tightly to who you want to be, that the anger and cynicism will take over?

 

- A therapist is NOT there to judge you. Nor to tell you what to do. A good therapist will simply help you think things through. They will give you insight and space to allow light bulbs to go off in your head. Seeing a therapist doesn't mean you are broken or crazy. Just means that you could use someone who is impartial to bounce things off. Think about it. I believe it could be VERY helpful for you.

 

- You seem to be focused on not being attractive or date-able. Obviously, I don't know you, but I don't find that true. You seem articulate and sharp and interesting. What is it you are looking for? You say that the guys who are "successful with women" are all the same. And if you mean the guys who are able to go pick a different girl up every night, then yeah, they are similar. But if you are talking "success" as in finding a partner, look harder! There are lots of married guys who are just plain unattractive. Some of them are even married to beautiful women who are way out of their "league" (if you believe in such a thing.)

 

The keys to dating:

- make yourself AVAILABLE. Don't go out once a weekend, sit in a bar, then go home frustrated when nobody talks to you. Use EVERY avenue open to you. Online dating, social media, local clubs/hobbies/get togethers, telling your married coworkers you are looking if they know anyone, talking to cashiers and bank tellers and other people you come across in your daily life (this is where the smiling comes in)... quantity is your friend and dating is a numbers game.. Casting a wide net means you are more likely to catch something.

 

- be yourself. Don't bother trying to be what you think women want. It just comes across as insincere. And even if you are good at it, you will be attracting a woman who is attracted to THAT GUY rather than to you. How long do you want to put on that act? Just be you. BUT try to be the best version of yourself...engage with people. Smile. Chat. I know it is awkward, but the more you do it, the less awkward it will become.

 

- when the time comes, BE BOLD. You talked about a group of tourists who were out prowling, but you didn't talk to them or pursue anything. Why not? Just because you ASSUMED they wouldn't be interested. But what would you have lost if you had tried anyway? As it is, you walked away with nothing. You maybe had a chance there... Even if you aren't interested in a one-nighter at this point, you can look at this as practice.

 

- The best way to talk to people? Get them to talk about themselves. People love to talk about themselves! Ask questions based on what is going on around you at the time. When she shares anything about herself, act interested. Ask follow up questions. Interject things about yourself (then circle it back to her.)

 

- don't take NO personally. There are lots of reasons a girl may say no. Most of them have NOTHING to do with you. Maybe she has a boyfriend. Maybe she has a girlfriend. Maybe she just broke up and isn't ready. Maybe she has a very specific taste (only likes dark haired Spanish guys). Maybe she is scared too. Maybe your eyes look like her dad's eyes and it freaks her out. Maybe she feels fat that day and can't reciprocate flirtation and interest because she's down on herself. Maybe she is moving next month and doesn't want to start something. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to assume that you are awesome and that the reason for no is something outside of you. And yeah - maybe sometimes it's you. But you don't need to know that, or take it in. Not to mention, even if it IS you, that doesn't mean something is wrong with YOU. Maybe her guy-picker is broken or she is really damaged and messed up. You just don't know what is going on inside someone else.

 

I don't think you are as hopeless as you think you are. If you are not interested in a therapist, consider buying some books. Not picking-up-girls books, but books on confidence, communication, flirting, overcoming shyness, etc.

 

There is a lot of good advice here. Thank you.

 

I am hard on myself yes because as has been explained to me many times I apparently am the issue.

 

People make it sound like I don't interact with people, I do just have nothing in common with ladies at all. The things I like the experiences I have had don't really interest ladies at all. The fundamental issue I have with therapists is this.

 

Line 7 up. Ask the same question and you will get 7 different answers. Which to me is a bit like a lottery of advice, I'd wager the advice on this forum is far more meaningful and practical than that from a therapist.

 

In terms of avenues, OLD I did for many years, I am looking around on FB but that seems rather stalker like to me. Unfortunately I am loath to post too much of my life on FB. Maybe it is a numbers game but I am just "tired" of the same old calibre of date, yes that sounds condescending but I just find MANY of these people are all the same. What people here need to understand is in SA OLD is the very, very last resort for people, its seen as heavily taboo in this society thus the people there for the most part are like me, victims of massive levels of rejection so when I sit down I pick that up immediately. Tinder seems better in this regard but I have not yet managed to actually go out with more than one person from Tinder and she was actually really nice, I tried hard that evening and yet I was brushed off again. A pity because there was some potential.

 

I have done both, I tried to be someone else and I was myself, neither resulted in much of a difference. Fundamentally what keeps me strong is I know I am not a bad person, there is some self belief there. However that is tempered by shyness which manifests itself as awkwardness which is the result of lack of confidence.

 

The dates (most) I have had have been like question sheets, I find it MASSIVELY frustrating to sit and have nothing asked about myself and I ask all the questions.

 

Probably the singular and most obvious reason for my lack of success is the fact people say I am cold and calculating, I don't have a warm personality or I don't project that, again its hidden away beneath a total lack of self confidence.

 

Gemma, I tried smiling yesterday and was told by a friend I don't have a nice smile.

[GemmaUK]

Gemma, I tried smiling yesterday and was told by a friend I don't have a nice smile.

 

So there you go, you can practice your smile and brightening up your resting face in front of the mirror.

 

Everyone has the capacity for all kinds of different smiles.

I suspect you tried a big huge smile without using your eyes too - which is the worst type of smile on any face.

[ZA Dater]

So there you go, you can practice your smile and brightening up your resting face in front of the mirror.

 

Everyone has the capacity for all kinds of different smiles.

I suspect you tried a big huge smile without using your eyes too - which is the worst type of smile on any face.

 

I don't really open my mouth when I smile but looking in the mirror I don't think this smile looks too bad.

 

As it happens I had plenty of good reasons to smile yesterday.

[GemmaUK]

I don't really open my mouth when I smile but looking in the mirror I don't think this smile looks too bad.

 

As it happens I had plenty of good reasons to smile yesterday.

 

That is the first totally positive post I've seen from you in here ZA!

Love that you think this and had a smiley day!

[pteromom]

Line 7 up. Ask the same question and you will get 7 different answers. Which to me is a bit like a lottery of advice, I'd wager the advice on this forum is far more meaningful and practical than that from a therapist.

 

I think I am pretty good at giving advice. Do you know where I got it? From going to a therapist. Yes, there are good and bad therapists, but good ones are worth their weight in gold.

 

And yes, you can get good (and VERY bad) advice here on LS. However, it's very different than sitting down one-on-one with someone and delving deeper. Plus, we are going off what you say. A therapist might see something in the way you talk or your body language or something VERY SIMPLE for you to fix that would completely change your results.

 

I am looking around on FB but that seems rather stalker like to me. Unfortunately I am loath to post too much of my life on FB.

 

I think you misunderstood what I advised you to do on FB. Don't stalk people. Join some of those local groups and start getting involved in the discussion. As you start chatting with people, there will likely be people who you are ORGANICALLY attracted to. And once you talk in the group and get some inside jokes and knowledge about who they are, you can start private messaging with them. And go from there. I used to do the BBS scene before the internet, and I can't tell you how valuable just being able to chat with others in a group can be for your dating life. You'll make friends. You'll make connections. You'll find people who share your interests. Trust me. Look for Facebook groups in your area (Search your town then in the results, filter it out to Groups) and invest an hour a night into finding out which ones are most active and start posting in discussions. See what happens.

 

Maybe it is a numbers game but I am just "tired" of the same old calibre of date, yes that sounds condescending but I just find MANY of these people are all the same.

 

Oh, hon. That's not you. That's EVERYONE. Dating is tedious! I went on dates with some of the most awful people. You gotta push your way through the weeds to find that rare flower that is worth picking. Yes. Most people are the same... shallow, selfish, disconnected... finding someone who is on your wavelength is a challenge. Which is why it is really important to keep those dates going. Look at each date not as an interview for a future wife, but just as fun with another person. Have a good time with her, even if she's not for you. And if she's not, just tell her it was nice getting to know her and move on. Nothing lost.

 

What people here need to understand is in SA OLD is the very, very last resort for people, its seen as heavily taboo in this society thus the people there for the most part are like me, victims of massive levels of rejection so when I sit down I pick that up immediately. Tinder seems better in this regard but I have not yet managed to actually go out with more than one person from Tinder and she was actually really nice, I tried hard that evening and yet I was brushed off again. A pity because there was some potential.

 

OK I didn't realize it was frowned upon there. Although...if there are women there, they must be feeling as frustrated as you are, and it is worth considering.

 

I have done both, I tried to be someone else and I was myself, neither resulted in much of a difference. Fundamentally what keeps me strong is I know I am not a bad person, there is some self belief there. However that is tempered by shyness which manifests itself as awkwardness which is the result of lack of confidence.

 

OK. Be yourself. It's a much better option. And I get being shy too. But you SHOULD be confident. You like yourself, yes? And you find yourself interesting? Be confident in that. You can't help being SHY, but you can't let your shyness make you feel bad about yourself.

 

The dates (most) I have had have been like question sheets, I find it MASSIVELY frustrating to sit and have nothing asked about myself and I ask all the questions.

 

Girls are used to being pursued, not being the pursuer. But don't wait for her to ask questions about you. It's ok to just throw things in there about yourself if they are related to the topic being discussed.

 

Probably the singular and most obvious reason for my lack of success is the fact people say I am cold and calculating, I don't have a warm personality or I don't project that, again its hidden away beneath a total lack of self confidence.

 

Again - this is something a therapist (or reading some books even) could really help you with. Yeah, if you are stiff and cold, you are going to have problems connecting with people.

 

Gemma, I tried smiling yesterday and was told by a friend I don't have a nice smile.

 

Nice "friend". A "friend" worth ignoring.

[ZA Dater]

That is the first totally positive post I've seen from you in here ZA!

Love that you think this and had a smiley day!

 

Lets just say it was a day where the things I like most all came together in one place at the same time.

 

That's the thing with me I don't think I am the worlds most easily pleased person.

[elaine567]

I found this -

Positive and Negative Body Language

 

Positive body language includes:

 

• Maintaining eye contact with the person you are speaking to.
  
• Smiling (if appropriate) but especially as a greeting and at the end of a conversation.
  
• Sitting squarely on a chair, leaning slightly forward (this indicates you are paying attention).
  
• Nodding in agreement.
  
• A firm handshake.
  
• Presenting a calm exterior.
  
• Looking interested.
  

Negative body language includes:

 

• Not looking at a person when speaking.
  
• Tapping a foot, fingers etc.
  
• Rocking backwards and forwards.
  
• Scratching.
  
• Continually clearing your throat.
  
• Fiddling with hair, ear lobes, jewellery, jacket, glasses, etc.
  
• Picking at fingers or finger nails.
  
• Yawning.
  
• Repeatedly looking at your watch or a clock in the room.
  
• Standing too close to others.
  
• Inattention to a person who is speaking.
  

[ZA Dater]

I found this -

Positive and Negative Body Language

 

Positive body language includes:

 

 

• Maintaining eye contact with the person you are speaking to.
  
• Smiling (if appropriate) but especially as a greeting and at the end of a conversation.
  
• Sitting squarely on a chair, leaning slightly forward (this indicates you are paying attention).
  
• Nodding in agreement.
  
• A firm handshake.
  
• Presenting a calm exterior.
  
• Looking interested.
  

Negative body language includes:

 

 

• Not looking at a person when speaking.
  
• Tapping a foot, fingers etc.
  
• Rocking backwards and forwards.
  
• Scratching.
  
• Continually clearing your throat.
  
• Fiddling with hair, ear lobes, jewellery, jacket, glasses, etc.
  
• Picking at fingers or finger nails.
  
• Yawning.
  
• Repeatedly looking at your watch or a clock in the room.
  
• Standing too close to others.
  
• Inattention to a person who is speaking.
  

I don't do any of the negative ones which must be a good thing!

[GemmaUK]

That's the thing with me I don't think I am the worlds most easily pleased person.

 

I can't argue with you there! Not a bit! Another reason why I think paid company won't be for you.

 

So, go on then, how many of those positive signs from the post above do you always employ?

Obviously being aware not to lean in too close to people (Elaine found this and posted it as is so it's not her words and just an example of behaviours) and especially not too close to people you don't know.

Personal space is massively important but it is as different as can be between person A & B, persons A & C and persons B & C.

 

I think we're all trying to get a measure of your behaviour as well as smiling etc..

[ZA Dater]

I can't argue with you there! Not a bit! Another reason why I think paid company won't be for you.

 

So, go on then, how many of those positive signs from the post above do you always employ?

Obviously being aware not to lean in too close to people (Elaine found this and posted it as is so it's not her words and just an example of behaviours) and especially not too close to people you don't know.

Personal space is massively important but it is as different as can be between person A & B, persons A & C and persons B & C.

 

I think we're all trying to get a measure of your behaviour as well as smiling etc..

 

One of the things I really do take pride in is taking an interest in people and ask them appropriate questions. I do most of that list, barring the smiling part, look I do try it sometimes but it always feels so awkward.

 

 

This is what I have been trying to convey, I really do like people and I have lots and lots to give but nobody seems to ever want it or allow me an opportunity. I really do take pride in having those things or most of them down pat when I go on dates and meet people, yes a lot of the time I cannot really relate but I still take an interest and ask questions.

 

 

Someone once said to me, the key is when there is someone sitting in front of you, give them your whole attention, people like it and its crucial, so I always try and do that. This is exactly why I find it really sad that nobody does the same with me.

 

 

For some reason there are just people who touch a very special side of my mind, none of these people have had much in common when I think about it, there is just something there and its that quality I seek and yes its hard to find and I beat myself up because I find it so, so rarely.

 

 

What I am probably trying to say is some people I simply find instantly captivating from a personality point of view.

 

 

Pay dating wouldn't achieve much because I will never have that captivation.

[ZA Dater]

I decided to have a closer look at these arrangement ideas and must be honest it was a pleasant eye opener from the perspective the calibre of person is far higher than what is found on dating sites here.

 

I have been chatting to a few students, 18-22yo and found them to be vastly more articulate and free of cynical baggage I find with ladies on dating sites. One said to me "I am trying this because of the poor selection on dating sites".

 

Its been interesting and actually I have been able to generate some sort of interest, mainly long distance though.

 

Controversially I actually think this could be viable alternative for some.

[RecentChange]

 

.... One said to me "I am trying this because of the poor selection on dating sites".

 

Has she indicated that the quality is better on a paid for her time site?

 

If so, why do you think that is?

 

Is the quality of men higher amoung those she could meet at the university or in public?

 

You are in South Africa correct? I have a hard time imagining what the dating scene is like there (I have a feeling it is different than San Francisco!)

[ZA Dater]

Has she indicated that the quality is better on a paid for her time site?

 

If so, why do you think that is?

 

Is the quality of men higher amoung those she could meet at the university or in public?

 

You are in South Africa correct? I have a hard time imagining what the dating scene is like there (I have a feeling it is different than San Francisco!)

 

I think expectations are an interesting thing. We tend to benchmark people and those give rise to expectations. From my arm chair it just seems there a heck of a lot of good guys who take themselves out of the game or settle for whatever likes them. I had a friend (he stabbed me in the back when I tried to date someone he had a crush on) and he ended up marrying someone so unremarkable I cannot for the life of me possibly understand what the attraction is.

 

Interestingly enough Cape Town and SF apparently have much in common, whether dating culture is one of those things I don't know.

[Moves Like Jagger]

I think expectations are an interesting thing. We tend to benchmark people and those give rise to expectations. From my arm chair it just seems there a heck of a lot of good guys who take themselves out of the game or settle for whatever likes them. I had a friend (he stabbed me in the back when I tried to date someone he had a crush on) and he ended up marrying someone so unremarkable I cannot for the life of me possibly understand what the attraction is.

 

Interestingly enough Cape Town and SF apparently have much in common, whether dating culture is one of those things I don't know.

 

I don't know. What's the point of paying for a date if the date is not going to give you any feedback on what you're doing right or wrong? I'm not sure paying for a date is helpful other than reducing your bank account.

 

Reading your threads and some of the others In Search Of folder, I wonder whether you guys are aware of what other guys in similar situations were doing in the past 10 years. Other guys are like doing research on the Internet on flirting and approaching women. They're hiring dating coaches. They try Meetup, bars, and nightclubs. I meet a lot of guys who are successful at work who are spending their disposable income on trying to fix their dating problems.

 

On the other hand, I feel like that just relying on dating advice from random, anonymous people on the Internet is so pre-2005. It's like someone who chooses not to get a smartphone. Some people just aren't interested in the latest technologies.

 

I feel like the guys in the In Search Of folder are saying "Look, I'm good. My definition of self-improvement is different than yours. I'm fine with online dating. I just want some dating advice. I'm not interested in radically changing the way I live my life."

 

At a lot of workplaces, people learn a new skill by going through training. For some reason with dating, people would rather take advice from random strangers on the Internet rather than training. This thread reminds me of the poem "The Road Not Taken".

[ZA Dater]

I don't know. What's the point of paying for a date if the date is not going to give you any feedback on what you're doing right or wrong? I'm not sure paying for a date is helpful other than reducing your bank account.

 

Reading your threads and some of the others In Search Of folder, I wonder whether you guys are aware of what other guys in similar situations were doing in the past 10 years. Other guys are like doing research on the Internet on flirting and approaching women. They're hiring dating coaches. They try Meetup, bars, and nightclubs. I meet a lot of guys who are successful at work who are spending their disposable income on trying to fix their dating problems.

 

On the other hand, I feel like that just relying on dating advice from random, anonymous people on the Internet is so pre-2005. It's like someone who chooses not to get a smartphone. Some people just aren't interested in the latest technologies.

 

I feel like the guys in the In Search Of folder are saying "Look, I'm good. My definition of self-improvement is different than yours. I'm fine with online dating. I just want some dating advice. I'm not interested in radically changing the way I live my life."

 

At a lot of workplaces, people learn a new skill by going through training. For some reason with dating, people would rather take advice from random strangers on the Internet rather than training. This thread reminds me of the poem "The Road Not Taken".

 

The Road not taken. Interesting you mention that, the gist of that poem epitomises my view on life. Robert Frost was a literally genius in the same sense F Scott Fitzgerald was.

 

That poem basically implies, "sure you can follow everyone else or you can go your own road".

 

I don't think any date, paid for or not is going to ever give meaningful feedback ever, people simply don't do it, in a consumer world you throw one damaged thing away and find something better, its easier than trying to repair.

 

To be frank research on dating is fruitless because what works for one wont always work for another, there is no sure road to success at dating, barring a few superficial routes. Well in my opinion anyway.

 

In my view paying at least gets you dates even if they are totally false. Its far better than getting no dates at all or getting dates you don't find attractive or interesting.

 

Bottom line, I'd rather pay for dates than pay to sit with some supposed dating coach where I might still have no success because I cannot ascertain how successful the dating coach really is and because dating is subjective, what works for him may not work for me.

 

Training on dating happens between the ages of 15-21, sadly some of us were busy with others things when that training was occurring.

[ZA Dater]

, I wonder whether you guys are aware of what other guys in similar situations were doing in the past 10 years. Other guys are like doing research on the Internet on flirting and approaching women. They're hiring dating coaches. They try Meetup, bars, and nightclubs. I meet a lot of guys who are successful at work who are spending their disposable income on trying to fix their dating problems.

 

I wonder how many of those who use such methods actually experience a tangible improvement in terms of dating and if so that would the average spend be. Equally how many find no improvement at all.

 

In terms of research I have done it, made no difference at all. The best thing a person can do is to just own something, I have owned up to the fact I am never going to be with anyone. I can look, costs nothing, I can live in some sort of vicarious world, that costs nothing either. At the end of the day anything can be rationalised.

 

I don't fit in with people and I don't think I ever will. I can choose to feel like a looser and care what other think or I can just feel like a looser and care not one jot. I cant change the former but at least the latter option allows some measure of peace.

 

I truly believe everyone can get someone BUT that's not the same as saying everyone can get someone they actually WANT.

 

Me, I'd rather hold onto a great fantasy than experience a miserable reality.

[GemmaUK]

Perhaps you could talk with an escort and find someone totally willing to give you the truth on how you come across on a pretend date?

The point of that though would be to then act upon it - meet her again or meet others willing to do this for you from the same escort company who know each other (maybe a couple of ladies who could swap notes and thoughts) but then make changes and work on it at each meet and in between.

 

On a side note, I know that you said facial expressions were too much effort initially but it's been about a week now since you did take on board practicing at smiling - how is it going ZA?

How many smiles given to strangers and received in the past week since you started making the effort with it?

[ZA Dater]

Perhaps you could talk with an escort and find someone totally willing to give you the truth on how you come across on a pretend date?

The point of that though would be to then act upon it - meet her again or meet others willing to do this for you from the same escort company who know each other (maybe a couple of ladies who could swap notes and thoughts) but then make changes and work on it at each meet and in between.

 

On a side note, I know that you said facial expressions were too much effort initially but it's been about a week now since you did take on board practicing at smiling - how is it going ZA?

How many smiles given to strangers and received in the past week since you started making the effort with it?

 

 

I must confess I have been so busy this week I haven't had much chance to think too much about facial expressions. The truth is work has rather consumed me this week and I must admit in many ways this is good because it gives me less time to feel lonely and feel like a looser.

 

I will try make an effort tomorrow to smile at someone. Your advice on this makes logical sense, lets see if I can be logical enough to try it.

 

 

We all learn continuously and I think I have just learnt that the world isn't what I would like it to be, no lady is going to take an interest in me and I wont ever have the courage to "make a move" on other either. Its not meant as negative its just unfortunately what is. People are already mumbling "he is asexual, is he gay" and sure those comment hurt because I am neither of those.

 

 

Looking at how things seem to work, looking at people who are in relationships I have concluded my idea of a relationship and the reality is a lot different.

 

 

Maybe I am better off trying to just live the idea in my mind and leaving the reality alone.

[GemmaUK]

I must confess I have been so busy this week I haven't had much chance to think too much about facial expressions. The truth is work has rather consumed me this week and I must admit in many ways this is good because it gives me less time to feel lonely and feel like a looser.

 

I will try make an effort tomorrow to smile at someone. Your advice on this makes logical sense, lets see if I can be logical enough to try it.

BTW it's 'loser' not looser.

But it takes more muscles to frown than it does to smile. Smiling gets you smiles in return which no matter how stressful or busy your day it boosts you and will help you feel good.

 

 

We all learn continuously and I think I have just learnt that the world isn't what I would like it to be,

Not quite ZA, we learn and grow/change/adapt continuously.

It seems to me that perhaps you read but don't really absorb and learn and you are not willing to change nor adapt. It really is up to you. It is the exact same for 100% of the rest of us out there. I can promise you that.

 

Listening, absorbing, learning, practicing etc are all really important - for you and your life more than for any potential date.

[ZA Dater]

BTW it's 'loser' not looser.

But it takes more muscles to frown than it does to smile. Smiling gets you smiles in return which no matter how stressful or busy your day it boosts you and will help you feel good.

 

 

 

Not quite ZA, we learn and grow/change/adapt continuously.

It seems to me that perhaps you read but don't really absorb and learn and you are not willing to change nor adapt. It really is up to you. It is the exact same for 100% of the rest of us out there. I can promise you that.

 

Listening, absorbing, learning, practicing etc are all really important - for you and your life more than for any potential date.

 

Ok I tried this smile thing, makes me feel very self conscious but I tried it anyway, may keep trying it even though I am not really looking for anyone.

 

 

I read but I struggle to practically implement things. Perhaps one true thing is if you want something and tell yourself you don't want it often enough, one day you simply wont want it.

 

 

At least next weekend I get to have someone sitting next to me for lunch who I really like and for a time I can live out what it must be like to actually have a partner. I don't interest her at all but at least she takes some sort of interest in the things I am involved in and the things I do, which nobody else ever has.

[redbaron007]

Re:arrangement type scenarios, I just started watching a new show wherein a man walks into a bar and is propositioned by a call girl. He responds by saying:"I'd rather earn a woman's affection than pay for it." The call girl retorts:"Well you always pay for it darlin', it's just in our case the costs are fixed and are posted right on the door!"

[ZA Dater]

Finally decided I am going to explore this avenue because its probably the only way I can ever hope to on dates with attractive people. A very expensive avenue but that's besides the point.

 

 

For those who have gone down this road do you treat these dates the same as you would any other?

 

 

The appeal here for me is that for once I wont need to beg and grovel for people to go out with me, simply a case of paying. When I mean paying I am talking about a seeking arrangement type situation rather than a pure sex date.

 

 

The other appeal is finally in theory I will be able to pick and choose.

[VeveCakes]

and you are fine knowing the person is only there because they are being paid to be there?

 

If that is up your alley then I would make sure the expectations and guidelines are very clear before things start.