How do you trust again?

[renaissancewoman]

Yes. The fact that he blamed me for "not being able to get over it" and was not remorseful. Is that enough?

 

And so now it is on me because I broke the wedding vows. Unbelievable

 

I hope you hear me when I say that I'm not blaming you. Obviously what he did was wrong and it's clear that he never really did what he should have done to rebuild your trust by showing no remorse. For me reconciliation would be impossible if he wasn't proving how deeply sorry he was and doing everything he could to build my trust and security. To be clear, I think your soon to be ex is a scumbag.

 

I'm not questioning your decision to divorce. If I was in your shoes, given what you have stated, I wouldn't be able to stay either. But I would see that as a me breaking my vows as well. But I would be at peace with my decision. And that is my hope for you as well.

[ladydesigner]

Thank you for your post. I trust myself, so I have problems with this. I am in control of my own behavior, no one else is. Im not open to letting someone/something other than my head being in charge. If I cant control myself then that's on me.

 

Yes I can see why this would bother you or anyone who has never been in this situation before. I recently discovered I was Bipolar in the last couple of years, which explains all my years growing up being impulsive and unable to self soothe. In fact I still self soothe with alcohol which I am trying to lessen.

 

If there was only something to look forward to. There is nothing.

 

(((Moxie Lady))) you have YOU to look forward to. There is so much life and experiences and new friends to make, new people to connect with.

 

I am in limbo currently with my WH and I commend you for your strength to D. This is something I am facing, but can't quite seem to pull the trigger on yet. I am happiest when I am by myself or with my kids. I no longer have that feeling that I need a man to complete me (which is a breakthrough for me I have always had a fear of being alone).

 

I am wishing you peace today!

[Liam1]

Excuse me?!?! Are you for real?

 

I think you forgot about the part of the vows that said "forsaking all others". So because I decided I didnt want to live with the fact that he cheated, now I am the one who broke wedding vows? Yeah, I dont think so.

 

Does your wife know about your affair?

 

No, You are misinterpreting what I am saying. You are also taking it out of context. Yes your response to me regarding vows was snarky, as you stated

 

My original post was that people can not even trust themselves. Than I explained why.

 

I am not saying you are wrong to leave. I am simply stating that the vow to forsake all others is not the ONLY WEDDING VOW.

 

But as I said, Few people actually take all the vows seriously.

 

My original point was that very few people actually take their vows seriously.

 

Also, few people actually follow through with what they say. That was my point. For example a lot of people say that particular actions in a marriage would be a deal breaker, but then when they actually happen they change their minds.

 

Hence, one can not even trust themselves. That was my point.

 

If everyone actually obeyed all their vows, very few people would ever divorce, except in cases of physical or extreme emotional abuse and thost things are against the law.

 

IMO, if one is not obeying the vow of for better or worse, than they, too are breaking a vow.

 

I don't necessarily believe the vows are relevant in a modern world. I am simply clarifying my point.

 

Your husband also broke a vow to forsake all others, but what does forsake mean.

 

Forsake means to abandon: Your husband want's to stay married. So he is not abandoning you.

 

Still, I am not blaming you for leaving. Just clarifying your remark about VOWS. Y0U brought up vows. Your mention of vows in response to my post was A REMARK EVEN YOU ADMIT WAS SNARKY. I was simply clarifying a point.

 

Here from the Miriam Webster dictionary is the definition of to forsake:

 

Simple Definition of forsake

 

 

 

• : to give up or leave (someone or something) entirely
  
• 
  
  1. transitive verb
     
  2. : to renounce or turn away from entirely <friends have forsaken her> <forsook the theater for politics>
     

  Synonym Discussion of forsake

   

  mean to leave without intending to return. abandon suggests that the thing or person left may be helpless without protection <abandoned children>. desert implies that the object left may be weakened but not destroyed by one's absence <a deserted town>. forsake suggests an action more likely to bring impoverishment or bereavement to that which is forsaken than its exposure to physical dangers <a forsaken love

Edited April 28, 2016 by Liam1

[ShatteredLady]

Come on, she made a humorous, though a 'snarky' comment. Gallows humor is very important sometimes. (I giggled a little anyway)

 

Divorce being the ultimate breaking of vows is a bit harsh to someone who has (& still is) trying to survive the bloody nightmare of adultery.

 

I know it's often tempting to fall into a theoretical discussion, I do it!

 

I deeply believe that when a bs is here suffering the last thing they need is "You broke your vows even more because you divorced!". Many of us do understand & hold our vows very sacred. It hurts!! Why hurt someone sharing their pain over pedantic points?

 

I never considered "For better or worse" to mean I had to tolerate him breaking all of the other vows.

 

...however technically you are correct.

 

 

Note.

Foresaking all others... To completely leave alone all others... Don't have affairs!! I got that one!

Edited April 28, 2016 by ShatteredLady

[Moxie Lady]

No, You are misinterpreting what I am saying. You are also taking it out of context. Yes your response to me regarding vows was snarky, as you stated

 

My original post was that people can not even trust themselves. Than I explained why.

 

I am not saying you are wrong to leave. I am simply stating that the vow to forsake all others is not the ONLY WEDDING VOW.

 

But as I said, Few people actually take all the vows seriously.

 

My original point was that very few people actually take their vows seriously.

 

Also, few people actually follow through with what they say. That was my point. For example a lot of people say that particular actions in a marriage would be a deal breaker, but then when they actually happen they change their minds.

 

Hence, one can not even trust themselves. That was my point.

 

If everyone actually obeyed all their vows, very few people would ever divorce, except in cases of physical or extreme emotional abuse and thost things are against the law.

 

IMO, if one is not obeying the vow of for better or worse, than they, too are breaking a vow.

 

I don't necessarily believe the vows are relevant in a modern world. I am simply clarifying my point.

 

Your husband also broke a vow to forsake all others, but what does forsake mean.

 

Forsake means to abandon: Your husband want's to stay married. So he is not abandoning you.

 

Still, I am not blaming you for leaving. Just clarifying your remark about VOWS. Y0U brought up vows. Your mention of vows in response to my post was A REMARK EVEN YOU ADMIT WAS SNARKY. I was simply clarifying a point.

 

Here from the Miriam Webster dictionary is the definition of to forsake:

 

Simple Definition of forsake

 

 

 

• : to give up or leave (someone or something) entirely
  
• 
  
  1. transitive verb
     
  2. : to renounce or turn away from entirely <friends have forsaken her> <forsook the theater for politics>
     

  Synonym Discussion of forsake

   

  mean to leave without intending to return. abandon suggests that the thing or person left may be helpless without protection <abandoned children>. desert implies that the object left may be weakened but not destroyed by one's absence <a deserted town>. forsake suggests an action more likely to bring impoverishment or bereavement to that which is forsaken than its exposure to physical dangers <a forsaken love

 

You are a fool, and you have forsaken your wife and broken your marriage vows and your wife hasnt. So don't talk to me as if you are an expert on this. You are only an expert on what NOT to do.

 

Maybe it is about timeline then. He broke the vows first. He didnt break all of them. I asked him to repair them and he couldn't do it. So now that I break MY vows is because he broke his first.

 

I cant even believe I am having this conversation.

[Moxie Lady]

Come on, she made a humorous, though a 'snarky' comment. Gallows humor is very important sometimes. (I giggled a little anyway)

 

Divorce being the ultimate breaking of vows is a bit harsh to someone who has (& still is) trying to survive the bloody nightmare of adultery.

 

I know it's often tempting to fall into a theoretical discussion, I do it!

 

I deeply believe that when a bs is here suffering the last thing they need is "You broke your vows even more because you divorced!". Many of us do understand & hold our vows very sacred. It hurts!! Why hurt someone sharing their pain over pedantic points?

 

I never considered "For better or worse" to mean I had to tolerate him breaking all of the other vows.

 

...however technically you are correct.

 

 

Note.

Foresaking all others... To completely leave alone all others... Don't have affairs!! I got that one!

 

Thank you shattered lady.

[Moxie Lady]

Yes I can see why this would bother you or anyone who has never been in this situation before. I recently discovered I was Bipolar in the last couple of years, which explains all my years growing up being impulsive and unable to self soothe. In fact I still self soothe with alcohol which I am trying to lessen.

 

 

 

(((Moxie Lady))) you have YOU to look forward to. There is so much life and experiences and new friends to make, new people to connect with.

 

I am in limbo currently with my WH and I commend you for your strength to D. This is something I am facing, but can't quite seem to pull the trigger on yet. I am happiest when I am by myself or with my kids. I no longer have that feeling that I need a man to complete me (which is a breakthrough for me I have always had a fear of being alone).

 

I am wishing you peace today!

 

Thank you ladydesigner. I have read many of your posts and I am so sorry for what you are going thru. I wish you the strength to go thru with a divorce. Please do it for you.

[Moxie Lady]

I hope you hear me when I say that I'm not blaming you. Obviously what he did was wrong and it's clear that he never really did what he should have done to rebuild your trust by showing no remorse. For me reconciliation would be impossible if he wasn't proving how deeply sorry he was and doing everything he could to build my trust and security. To be clear, I think your soon to be ex is a scumbag.

 

I'm not questioning your decision to divorce. If I was in your shoes, given what you have stated, I wouldn't be able to stay either. But I would see that as a me breaking my vows as well. But I would be at peace with my decision. And that is my hope for you as well.

 

I understand and thank you.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Your husband also broke a vow to forsake all others, but what does forsake mean.

 

Forsake means to abandon: Your husband want's to stay married. So he is not abandoning you.

 

That's a lot of mental gymnastics to justify your position. "Foresake all others" is a polite way of saying "don't shag another person that is not your spouse". It means your dating days are over. You are off the meat market from this point forward.

 

Yes, there are other vows. What other violation of vows wrecks havoc on a marriage like adultery? Once a spouse commits adultery, then all bets are off. The BS owes the WS nothing short of divorce papers. Any attempt by the BS to reconcile the marriage is solely based on grace. It's certainly not based on any entitlement by the WS.

 

OP - Good luck. You gave it a try and it didn't work out. The odds were stacked against you from the beginning. That is not your fault, but your husband's doing.

[Liam1]

You are a fool, and you have forsaken your wife and broken your marriage vows and your wife hasnt. So don't talk to me as if you are an expert on this. You are only an expert on what NOT to do.

 

No need to get nasty and issue ad hominem attacks. Remember you brought up VOWS. I DID NOT. You also mentioned that you knew you were being snarky when mentioning VOWS.

 

I am truly sorry that other people's opinions upset you. But then I have to question why you are asking questions on a public forum and when people respond politely you attack them.

 

People typically post on a forum for other opinions looking for input that may expand or clarify their thinking.

 

If you only want people to agree with you than say so. Or better yet input your talking points into a recording and play them back, while looking in a mirror.

 

Maybe it is about timeline then. He broke the vows first. He didnt break all of them. I asked him to repair them and he couldn't do it. So now that I break MY vows is because he broke his first.

 

I cant even believe I am having this conversation.

Again, YOU BROUGHT UP VOWS, IN A REMARK YOU ACKNOWLEDGE WAS SNARKY.

 

My response to your self-admitted snarky comment about vows was not addressed to your situation specifically.

 

Please go back at re-read the comment with an open, less-rigid mindset.

 

As I already mentioned, I am not saying that you should NOT leave your spouse. I do not know enough about your personal marriage to actually give an intelligent opinion regarding whether or not you should stay in your marriage.

 

I am wise enough to know that unless I am actually in someone else's marriage, I just do not have all the facts.

 

I was simply responding to your self-admitted snarky comment about vows with the intent to clarify my point.

 

Again, my original post mentioned NOTHING about vows.

 

You need not worry about continuing the conversation. I am no longer interested in continuing.

[WasOtherWoman]

You know, I think anyone who has been touched by infidelity no longer has the concept of blind trust. And, after being a BW many years ago, I now feel that the concept of blind trust is a very bad thing anyway.

 

Think about it this way, the unthinkable happened. And, you did not die. Yep, hurts badly (I immediately ended the marriage), but I survived. Never again will someone be able to do that to me.

 

Years later, I became an OW and have been married to my affair partner for many years now. Do I trust blindly? Nope. (And, let's face it, anyone who marries someone who has cheated would be a complete fool to not at least consider that it could happen again). But if it did (and don't get me wrong, I would not be happy about it), it would NOT destroy me. I love my husband and am happier and luckier than anyone has a right to ask for, but, if it all fell apart tomorrow, i would be just fine, because i will never allow someone else to break me.

 

I know this is all new and fresh for you, and I am truly sorry you are in the place that you are right now.

 

The entire concept of blind trust has no place in this day and age, unfortunately..... especially when it comes to marriage. Anyone who does not at least consider the possibility that their marriage may eventually be touched by infidelity (either theirs or their partners) is deluding themself, in my opinion.

[Moxie Lady]

You need not worry about continuing the conversation. I am no longer interested in continuing.

 

Good, that makes two of us.

 

And I noticed you didn't answer my question about whether your wife knows that you had an affair.

[Moxie Lady]

You know, I think anyone who has been touched by infidelity no longer has the concept of blind trust. And, after being a BW many years ago, I now feel that the concept of blind trust is a very bad thing anyway.

 

Think about it this way, the unthinkable happened. And, you did not die. Yep, hurts badly (I immediately ended the marriage), but I survived. Never again will someone be able to do that to me.

 

Years later, I became an OW and have been married to my affair partner for many years now. Do I trust blindly? Nope. (And, let's face it, anyone who marries someone who has cheated would be a complete fool to not at least consider that it could happen again). But if it did (and don't get me wrong, I would not be happy about it), it would NOT destroy me. I love my husband and am happier and luckier than anyone has a right to ask for, but, if it all fell apart tomorrow, i would be just fine, because i will never allow someone else to break me.

 

I know this is all new and fresh for you, and I am truly sorry you are in the place that you are right now.

 

The entire concept of blind trust has no place in this day and age, unfortunately..... especially when it comes to marriage. Anyone who does not at least consider the possibility that their marriage may eventually be touched by infidelity (either theirs or their partners) is deluding themself, in my opinion.

 

Thank you for your post.

 

This thread has taught me so much. I did believe in blind trust. No more.

[ShatteredLady]

The entire concept of blind trust has no place in this day and age, unfortunately..... especially when it comes to marriage. Anyone who does not at least consider the possibility that their marriage may eventually be touched by infidelity (either theirs or their partners) is deluding themself, in my opinion.

 

There's this logical part of my brain which completely agrees but I don't want to!! I want my innocence back. I want my faith restored. I like blind trust & although I know that if I'd been a believer in the quote it may of saved me some of the agony that I endure.....but at what cost?

 

The first time my H cheated with her 12 years ago I forgave, I truly did. I think that part of it was convincing myself that he had a mental break (as I've explained before) but I also told myself that we were young, it was before we had children, it was before his Mum died & my brother died, it was 'before' so very much. It was before we were truly FAMILY.

 

Now I'm 46. A lifetime together. What do I tell myself to move on this time? How do I convince myself to trust now? Many say it's healthy not to trust anyone completely but I HATE that idea! I'll always be holding something back to protect myself. I know what lemonade tastes like, how do I content myself with sucking on lemons?

 

I WANT TO BELIEVE!

 

I understand why you divorced. I often wonder where I would be now if I'd left the first time I met the stranger that resides, hidden, inside of my H. Now I know that the stranger wasn't banished, just subdued. Ugh!!!

 

I still have a lovely frog that my Mum bought me as a teenager. The charm around his neck says, "Before you meet your prince you have to kiss a lot of frogs".

 

To answer your original question all I can say is "Have great fun kissing some frogs & hopefully you will find your trust, faith & a gorgeous, loyal, loving prince one day!".

 

I'm a hapless romantic. I love being a hapless romantic. I've lost so very much at the whim of my frog. I refuse to loose any more.

 

Could I be 'shattered' again? Could I have to pick myself up, dust myself off, rant & cry on LS again? Could I love completely, unconditionally again....to be honest I think I still do, maybe, it must be unconditional if I still do after everything my H has put me through!

 

Maybe there's no such thing as unconditional love. I don't know! I have learnt that you don't have to stay & tolerate just because you love.

 

Sorry, me trying to answer you is the blind leading the blind!!

[Liam1]

Good, that makes two of us.

 

And I noticed you didn't answer my question about whether your wife knows that you had an affair.

 

 

Well, if you apologize for making rash judgments and issuing ad hominem attacks, I will answer your question more specifically.

 

Personally, based on my posts, the answer to your question seems obvious to me, but if you want it spelled out very clearly, just ask me to respond.

 

It seems as if you want to end the conversation. If that impression is incorrect, let me know.

 

The bottom line is anyone can have an affair, if the conditions are ripe. So, IMO, blindly trusting anyone, even one's self is premature.

 

Even people who have been Betrayed spouses sometimes have affairs.

 

There is a saying: It goes.......NEVER SAY NEVER.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Liam1

[merrmeade]

You are a fool, and you have forsaken your wife and broken your marriage vows and your wife hasnt. So don't talk to me as if you are an expert on this. You are only an expert on what NOT to do.

 

Maybe it is about timeline then. He broke the vows first. He didnt break all of them. I asked him to repair them and he couldn't do it. So now that I break MY vows is because he broke his first.

 

I cant even believe I am having this conversation.

Foxie Moxie! And that IS tellling it like it is. Furthermore, no one can tell you what your vows are and, second, your commitment to your husband (or STBX?) is in a no-man's land right now. That is the point. And yours to handle.

[merrmeade]

but one caveat - That said ("yours to handle") I do not agree that a BS no longer needs to respect the marriage vows because the WS has broken them. I see the vows as part of my personal ethics, not something I gave my spouse. I couldn't break them because of me. It has nothing to do with him, and I live with that neither proudly nor bitterly. It's what it is.

 

But that is not where you are. You are in transition. Neither here nor there, neither in nor out of the marriage. It IS your call - in my opinion and my opinion (and anyone else's) doesn't matter. You no longer need to feel obligated to share or seek agreement with him. my 2 cents.

[gemini6]

IMHO people who have escape plans and the ways and means to implement that escape plan are the ones that need to use them the least. If someone already knows you can walk away on a moment's notice without harm, they are less likely to mistreat you.

Oldshirt is soooooo right!

I've been 5 years post affair - you never truly trust again. A friend of mine put it really simple, she said - you can glue the pieces of broken mirror back together, but the image will never be the same. She was right.

 

I left the divorce pending for 5 years - I just now withdrew my petition and part of me wishes I would of just left. So......I will never feel the same blind love for him again. Nor would I ever just blindly trust anyone ever again. It's a permanent scar that you wear

[ShatteredLady]

I've never considered divorce, (after you've done everything you can to fix your marriage OR after your partner has broken the vows & is remorseless making reconciliation a joke) "breaking your marriage vows".

 

I have loved & cherished my H, forsaking all others, in sickness & health, richer or poorer, better or worse for nearly 20 years. We met with our church elder, we went through our vows & decided that we would promise the traditional vows on our wedding day. We took our vows VERY seriously.

 

My H has broken ALL of those vows over the years, some several times! I understand that 'technically' if I file for divorce I will be breaking the "Until death us do part" bit but I don't FEEL like that is vow breaking.

 

Making the decision to divorce is traumatic enough without adding the guilt of being a 'vow breaker'....the partner who cheated, didn't love & cherish while abusing, basically pooped on all of the precious vows & wasn't willing to do the work necessary for reconciliation should hold that guilt. They destroyed the marriage. The paperwork is a technicality.

 

This thread is about moving on & trusting again. That's more than hard enough without an extra dollop of guilt.

[renaissancewoman]

I've never considered divorce, (after you've done everything you can to fix your marriage OR after your partner has broken the vows & is remorseless making reconciliation a joke) "breaking your marriage vows".

 

I have loved & cherished my H, forsaking all others, in sickness & health, richer or poorer, better or worse for nearly 20 years. We met with our church elder, we went through our vows & decided that we would promise the traditional vows on our wedding day. We took our vows VERY seriously.

 

My H has broken ALL of those vows over the years, some several times! I understand that 'technically' if I file for divorce I will be breaking the "Until death us do part" bit but I don't FEEL like that is vow breaking.

 

Making the decision to divorce is traumatic enough without adding the guilt of being a 'vow breaker'....the partner who cheated, didn't love & cherish while abusing, basically pooped on all of the precious vows & wasn't willing to do the work necessary for reconciliation should hold that guilt. They destroyed the marriage. The paperwork is a technicality.

 

This thread is about moving on & trusting again. That's more than hard enough without an extra dollop of guilt.

 

Agreed, ShatteredLady. I don't think anything was meant to add a dollop of guilt by going off on the tangent of marriage vows. At the end of the day, we need to be able to make decisions and be at peace with them. Whatever path anyone chooses, it should be with a clear conscience.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I have been in reconciliation 33 years and I can honestly say i trust my husband as much as i ever did...maybe even more.

 

there is hope for those who reconcile and continue to do so on a daily basis by reassuring each other not only in words but in actions.

 

I think transparency plays a very very important role in reestablishing trust...as does true responsibility. I never ever blame shift....I never ever rug sweep and I also accept complete and total responsibility for what I have done.

 

Trusting again is possible...blindly trusting again is not. There is a difference.

 

I trust knowing that cheating is possible...but believing it will not happen.

[Liam1]

Agreed, ShatteredLady. I don't think anything was meant to add a dollop of guilt by going off on the tangent of marriage vows. At the end of the day, we need to be able to make decisions and be at peace with them. Whatever path anyone chooses, it should be with a clear conscience.

 

I agree bringing up the vows in this thread was not needed. The question was about trust.

 

But Moxie lady needs to note that it was Moxie lady, who made the comment about vows. One even she noted was "snarky", to use her word, in response to might comments about "trust". She actually asked me a question about vows. I simply responded.

 

If one is going to mention vows, they need to be honest and mention them all.

 

Personally, IMO, the marriage vows are outdated and of course people need to make decisions based on facts rather the emotions or old fashioned cliches.

 

There is more than one vow, however, in the marriage ceremony and people break many of the vows many times.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Liam1

[Mrs. John Adams]

There was no vow in our marriage vows that said I will screw you on a regular basis

 

But there was one that said forsaking all others I will keep myself only to you

 

I broke that ..... And so did you Liam regardless of why.

 

I am no better than you and you are no better than me. We cheated... And regardless of the reasons... We broke a very important vow.

[Liam1]

but one caveat - That said ("yours to handle") I do not agree that a BS no longer needs to respect the marriage vows because the WS has broken them. I see the vows as part of my personal ethics, not something I gave my spouse. I couldn't break them because of me. It has nothing to do with him, and I live with that neither proudly nor bitterly. It's what it is.

 

But that is not where you are. You are in transition. Neither here nor there, neither in nor out of the marriage. It IS your call - in my opinion and my opinion (and anyone else's) doesn't matter. You no longer need to feel obligated to share or seek agreement with him. my 2 cents.

 

Excellent statement, Merrmeade, in its entirely. Simple, fair, realistic and profound.

[Moxie Lady]

I agree bringing up the vows in this thread was not needed. The question was about trust.

 

But Moxie lady needs to note that it was Moxie lady, who made the comment about vows. One even she noted was "snarky", to use her word, in response to might comments about "trust". She actually asked me a question about vows. I simply responded.

 

If one is going to mention vows, they need to be honest and mention them all.

 

Personally, IMO, the marriage vows are outdated and of course people need to make decisions based on facts rather the emotions or old fashioned cliches.

 

There is more than one vow, however, in the marriage ceremony and people break many of the vows many times.

 

I brought up the vows because you said that people "say things that do not pan out in the long run." I was trying to make the point that perhaps that shouldnt be used as an excuse, that perhaps it was the problem in the first place. So I dont agree with you that bringing up vows was not needed (it is my thread, after all, no?).

 

Then I said it was perhaps 'snarky' somewhat as an apology, but in hindsight it was really more just being sarcastic of your mention about how I am violating my marriage vows by divorcing a man that was unfaithful and unremorseful. I didnt expect you to jump on that comment and keep bringing it up repeatedly.

 

Yes I suppose you could say that its on me that I divorced because of what my husband did. I broke that vow. My point was that you are focusing on the trees and not seeing the forest. Where is the line then?

 

If you are a religious person (I am not) it says in the Bible that divorce is acceptable if there is infidelity. Note, it does not say that divorce is acceptable if your husband beats you to within an inch of your life. Just infidelity. But would we tell women who were horribly physically abused that they should stay in a marriage because they should not break their vows? Where is the line where it is acceptable to not want to stay in the marriage? Thats what I had the problem with, that you jumped right on me for breaking my vows to him yet didnt seem to have the same level of issue with him breaking his first. It felt a great deal like victim blaming from someone who was not accepting what THEY did, and projecting it onto someone else.

 

So we will agree to disagree.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Moxie Lady