Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

[ironpony]

She is 39.

 

I felt that I was ready for marriage, and she was the one that maybe was not, based on what people have said on here. However, if I am not ready either, what is it about me, that does not make me ready?

[BlueIris]

You’ve been together 3 years and she’s 39.

 

I can see why she wouldn’t want to hang around indefinitely waiting for someone who’s finding more reasons to not marry- “not yet.”

 

Also, you’re more concerned about a business you haven’t started yet and you haven’t spoken with a lawyer to find out about prenups.

 

Maybe you’re avoiding the reality of how you feel about her or marriage or both.

 

Let her go.

 

She is 39.

 

I felt that I was ready for marriage, and she was the one that maybe was not, based on what people have said on here. However, if I am not ready either, what is it about me, that does not make me ready?

 

You haven't proposed and are focused on work and money. Marriage isn't your priority.

Edited April 24, 2016 by BlueIris

[ironpony]

What did I say to imply that I am more focused on work and money? If I didn't love her so much this whole ordeal wouldn't have been so hard on me. I haven't talked to a lawyer yet, cause I am so sad of loosing her that I have been having a really hard to bring myself to do it. But it's not because about money or my job, it's about losing her.

[d0nnivain]

ironpony

 

 

I jumped to the last page from the last time I was in this thread.

 

 

Have you spoken to a lawyer yet? If not do that before you continue torturing yourself.

 

 

Have a preliminary pre-nup drafted. Make sure it contains things that are favorable to her. Ours talks about things like heath insurance & spells out that both sides share in certain things while keeping other this separate. It's fairly balanced.

 

 

After you have the actual document, present it to her saying that you want to marry her & you want to share your life going forward with her & that this is only to protect things that exist before you met & married. Also assure her that you are doing this as preventive measure, nit because you assume your marriage will fail. You are in fact trying to assure it's success by forcing the tough discussions in advance.

 

 

See if that softens her approach. A 39 year old woman who is behaving like a petulant child & still lives pay check to pay check may not be your best partner no matter how much you love her. She needs to grow up. You are going to her husband not her knight in shining armor. Moreover at her age, the chances of you two having kids are getting slimmer by the day so there is less reason for her to take umbrage at this proposal.

[Lady Hamilton]

You're a better person than I am. I would have said "bye Felicia" like three ultimatums ago.

 

Personally, I think it's your right to ask for a prenup (and also quite smart). I also think it's your right to say "I thought I'd get married to you this year, but your behavior over X, Y, and Z, now I'm having second thoughts about what I want out of this relationship."

 

For the record, a woman who has apparently no issues using stuff like this as weapons to extract what she wants out of you only proves just how smart you are to ask for a prenup. I she has no problem using hypothetical children as a weapon to get you to drop a prenup, she will have no problem using actual children in the event of a divorce as a means to beat you into submission.

 

I think she sounds like a child. I'm sure her biological clock is sounding like a drum, but doesn't excuse acting like a lunatic.

[BlueIris]

What did I say to imply that I am more focused on work and money? If I didn't love her so much this whole ordeal wouldn't have been so hard on me. I haven't talked to a lawyer yet, cause I am so sad of loosing her that I have been having a really hard to bring myself to do it. But it's not because about money or my job, it's about losing her.

 

How is getting married an ordeal? Why is it hard on you to get a ring, propose and get a prenup lined up and begin negotiating? If you are sad about losing her, I’d think you WOULD talk to a lawyer, not avoid it. So maybe it’s worth considering why you’re stalling.

 

I based my conclusion primarily on this post:

 

Okay thanks for the input. Well if I am in the wrong then, and everything we own is considered 'we' instead of 'I', what is the point of a pre-nup then?

 

I also told her that maybe we are not financially ready to get married yet, but she says that we have been dating for three years, and that is more than enough time for me to know if I want to marry her or not. I have till the end of the month to propose she said, or she will leave me.

 

She also made me feel like a jerk, because she said I am breaking my promise, and that I promised to marry her later this year. Yes that is true, I promised that before, but her emotionally impactful reaction to the pre-nup got me concerned. Is that unfair of me, or am I being a jerk on that promise?

 

Her reaction to the prenup isn’t why you hadn’t bought a ring and proposed prior to that.

You’d been together 3 years and made an agreement that you two would marry this year (soon- in the next 7 months), yet you hadn’t proposed before that discussion even began. And though you’ve said you want a prenup, you haven’t spoken to an attorney to get it done since that discussion did occur. Rather than be defensive about that or worry about who’s the bad guy or the one who’s least ready, reflect on why you hadn’t and haven’t bought a ring and proposed. Maybe the prenup isn’t the reason. I don’t know. I’d wonder if my BF talked about marriage and we’d agreed to marry soon but he hadn’t taken action.

 

It’s a negotiation, prenup or not. You each have every right to disagree with certain terms and either negotiate- or walk. That’s the nature of contract negotiation. When businesspeople do it, they aren’t called immature or manipulative. No one is compelled to enter this agreement to marry. You might decide that her getting very upset and vomiting is unacceptable. That's fine. But hey, that’s her reaction. Still want to make this happen, or not? Because your inaction indicates, “not.” Right? You each have every right to walk.

 

So get a ring, propose, have a prenup to negotiate if you want that, and negotiate. If you think her reaction or financial conditions are unacceptable, don't get the ring and the prenup. You’re both having emotional reactions. She’s vomited. You’ve stalled. Ok, so what? Are you going to make this happen or not?

[BettyDraper]

You're a better person than I am. I would have said "bye Felicia" like three ultimatums ago.

 

Personally, I think it's your right to ask for a prenup (and also quite smart). I also think it's your right to say "I thought I'd get married to you this year, but your behavior over X, Y, and Z, now I'm having second thoughts about what I want out of this relationship."

 

For the record, a woman who has apparently no issues using stuff like this as weapons to extract what she wants out of you only proves just how smart you are to ask for a prenup. I she has no problem using hypothetical children as a weapon to get you to drop a prenup, she will have no problem using actual children in the event of a divorce as a means to beat you into submission.

 

I think she sounds like a child. I'm sure her biological clock is sounding like a drum, but doesn't excuse acting like a lunatic.

 

This. I have sympathy for a woman's biological clock but the OP's girlfriend is still not ready to be a mother and a wife.

 

She is too immature for the compromise and patience required for those relationships.

[whichwayisup]

What did I say to imply that I am more focused on work and money? If I didn't love her so much this whole ordeal wouldn't have been so hard on me. I haven't talked to a lawyer yet, cause I am so sad of loosing her that I have been having a really hard to bring myself to do it. But it's not because about money or my job, it's about losing her.

 

You've mentioned many times that she is bad with money, basically has 50 bucks to her name. you want to protect what's yours, house and business so she won't get any percentage or money.

 

If it truly is not about losing her then why the pre nup? Why not just change it up and say JUST the business. A house is a house... She will be investing in it and doing upkeep, and as you say if she is a stay at home mom then she will be taking care of the kids and the place while you work.

If there's a D then she should be compensated for not working and being a SAHM.

[ironpony]

For sure, you make a very good point. But don't I need a pre-nup for the business too?

[ironpony]

I haven't spoken to a lawyer yet cause I have been required to work a lot of overtime the past few weeks, and the lawyer's office hasn't been open during my time off.

 

I guess I should take a day off or something.

 

Should I propose and give her the ring first, and bring up that I want to talk to lawyer about pre-nup options first? It's just if I give her the ring first, and then she turns me down, cause of a pre-nup after, I going to be a lot more hearbroken.

 

The reason it has been so hard for me to bring it up again, is that I feel this force, that is literally stopping me. It's heartbreak I guess. If I give her the ring first, and she still has a problem with a pre-nup later, I think that will make things worse for me.

 

But should I do it that way, and it will be the better way of going about it?

[ufo8mycat]

For sure, you make a very good point. But don't I need a pre-nup for the business too?

 

Does the business exist? I wasn't clear on if it was established and making money.

[BlueIris]

I haven't spoken to a lawyer yet cause I have been required to work a lot of overtime the past few weeks, and the lawyer's office hasn't been open during my time off.

 

I guess I should take a day off or something.

 

Should I propose and give her the ring first, and bring up that I want to talk to lawyer about pre-nup options first? It's just if I give her the ring first, and then she turns me down, cause of a pre-nup after, I going to be a lot more hearbroken.

 

The reason it has been so hard for me to bring it up again, is that I feel this force, that is literally stopping me. It's heartbreak I guess. If I give her the ring first, and she still has a problem with a pre-nup later, I think that will make things worse for me.

 

But should I do it that way, and it will be the better way of going about it?

 

In addition to the question above (do you have an operating business now?), I have to ask: Do you have the ring?

 

You really do not sound like someone who is in love and wants to get married and build a life together. She’s 39, wants marriage and children, has spent the last 3 years with you on the understanding that you did too, and it is clear that you aren’t enthused at all about talking to a lawyer to resolve the prenup issue or getting married to her. It’s only fair to tell her.

 

I realize that you will be sad to lose her, but it’s the decent thing to do.

[Methodical]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment. This woman is 39, wants marriage and children. She has invested 3 years, as have you, into developing this relationship. Meanwhile, I imagine in the back of her mind she's thinking about her biological clock. I don't know her reason for asking about the pre-nup, other than what you've said. I think she is wondering whether or not she has wasted precious time with a man who cares more about his envisioned business and potential future home than living in the moment...with her, materialistic things aside.

 

I think placing a time limit for a proposal was a bit much. But, you aren't making arrangements to settle the pre-nup situation - a plan that protects both of you - so that you can move forward in a meaningful way. Meanwhile, she's thinking about the proverbial clock and why you aren't sure after 3 years. Cut the woman loose so she can find a partner who isn't concerned about her living paycheck to paycheck.

[carhill]

But don't I need a pre-nup for the business too?

 

In my jurisdiction, business valuation/appreciation is handled as part of the general contract. The complexity of the business portion depends on type of business, spouse-to-be's involvement with business and how specific the parties wish to be regarding how the prenup addresses the business and if they wish it treated differently than other pre-marital assets or not.

 

IMO, prenups address the reality that a lot of folks aren't married until death do them part and relationships can change at any time for any reason or no reason at all and address the relationship-specific equities of the parties. Each couple is different so each situation will be different.

 

OP, I can share with you that I got married at around your age, did not get a prenup and that choice cost me between 10-15 years of slowly built working class guy wealth in the end. Think of it as the difference between a stocked bar and a six pack; a full refer and a couple things chillin. I'm now six years out and still plowing along slowly. You're younger and perhaps with a more profitable business and lifestyle so such matters may be different for you. In any event, consider both the contracts you enter into and the parties you enter into them with, very carefully. We don't get do-overs in life. When it's done, it's over.

[pteromom]

This quote stuck out to me the most right now. I am buying a house right now, and also trying to invest money in starting my own career business. If I got divorced all that would be lost. No business and no place to house to own possibly. Do I have to be as rich as Bill Gates in order to want to protect some my assets, just in case?

 

If you don't trust in your gf and yours and her readiness to be married, I wouldn't get married at this time.

[CarrieT]

For sure, you make a very good point. But don't I need a pre-nup for the business too?

 

It is what I said on the first page; you absolutely need a pre-nup BECAUSE of the business. You need to protect it otherwise, if you divorce, you might find yourself with a lifetime business partner without having a lifetime spouse.

[carhill]

I think the OP was asking if he needed a separate contract for the business. IMO, this would be a good time to discuss form of business with a competent business attorney as different forms of business adapt more readily to marital contracts than others. Also, if owning real estate, addressing form of ownership there as well. Those assets represent ones life's work, the sweat off one's brow, the sleepless nights of getting ahead. They represent time one will never, ever, get back. Sure, when one hasn't earned them, they are or can be considered just 'stuff'. A compatible and loving partner respects the value of one's life's work and joins in the equitable sharing of it, bi-laterally.

 

Pre-nuptials also address debt, not an uncommon thing these days and quite important to a partnership.

 

 

Personally, I'd see the pre-nuptial process as part of the engagement process once a proposal of marriage is accepted. Engagements are evidence that the parties want to get married. Some folks never get engaged, rather just get married. My parents were like that. Yuma and JOP and done. Back to work on Monday. Their prenup was dad gave mom his paycheck and she took care of everything

 

In any event, I'd do the pre-nup stuff and PMC (important!) after the engagement occurs, presuming there is one. If GF isn't comfortable with the financial tone of interaction so far, or you're not, then the engagement won't happen.

 

My lawyer told me to budget between 1 and 5% of assets, with the higher number for lesser asset totals, for such a contract. He expected one side to run between 5 and 10 grand, which I considered pretty good since he charged me five grand for one court appearance on a trust matter. That kind of stuff can be hammered out at consultation before engagement since you'll have good information for any pre-nuptial moving forward.

[whichwayisup]

In addition to the question above (do you have an operating business now?), I have to ask: Do you have the ring?

 

You really do not sound like someone who is in love and wants to get married and build a life together. She’s 39, wants marriage and children, has spent the last 3 years with you on the understanding that you did too, and it is clear that you aren’t enthused at all about talking to a lawyer to resolve the prenup issue or getting married to her. It’s only fair to tell her.

 

I realize that you will be sad to lose her, but it’s the decent thing to do.

 

I didn't realize she was 39, I thought she was much younger. At that age she should be well established and settled, not living pay cheque to pay cheque (that's pay check for you Americans ) and only having 50 bucks to her name.

 

Be upfront and honest, don't give her the ring and then later bring up the pre nup. This has to be settled beforehand.

[SherryEast]

I just think that if two people are deeply in love, determined to make a marriage work, then why upfront think about when it ends? I'm not saying you can't be realistic, but let's examine it this way... if SHE were the one with more money and she asked YOU to sign one, how would you feel?

 

I don't know that if it's about the money, it's more 'the money matters more than me,' and of course that hurts.

[Woggle]

I just think that if two people are deeply in love, determined to make a marriage work, then why upfront think about when it ends? I'm not saying you can't be realistic, but let's examine it this way... if SHE were the one with more money and she asked YOU to sign one, how would you feel?

 

I don't know that if it's about the money, it's more 'the money matters more than me,' and of course that hurts.

 

While I agree with you in theory with the state of marriage these days it's just dumb to not take some precautions. It makes perfect sense to be cautious when entering something that fails 50% of the time.

[whichwayisup]

I just think that if two people are deeply in love, determined to make a marriage work, then why upfront think about when it ends? I'm not saying you can't be realistic, but let's examine it this way... if SHE were the one with more money and she asked YOU to sign one, how would you feel?

 

I don't know that if it's about the money, it's more 'the money matters more than me,' and of course that hurts.

 

He keeps saying it's not about the money but more about protecting what's his (aka his house that he owns and his business that he owns) and doesn't want her to take anything away from that aspect of his life if there's a divorce.

 

What worries me about this situation is this woman doesn't have any money, barely works and doesn't have any assets at age 39. Not saying she's a gold digger but she certainly is landing on her feet to marry someone who will provide basically everything for her.

[BlueIris]

This quote stuck out to me the most right now. I am buying a house right now, and also trying to invest money in starting my own career business. If I got divorced all that would be lost. No business and no place to house to own possibly. Do I have to be as rich as Bill Gates in order to want to protect some my assets, just in case?

 

And I know that a prenup only is for money prior to the marriage and has nothing to do with child custody, like someone mentioned before.

 

I just wanted my house and possibly my business to be mine if something should happen, since I am paying for those two things fully myself. Is that bad, if I am not as rich as someone like Bill Gates.

 

I don't think there's a business yet. In terms of prenups, there is a significant difference in how you define and protect a premarital asset and one acquired or developed during a marriage.

[ironpony]

Okay then. Should I not bother to get a pre-nup then if that is the case, and I don't have a business or a house yet?

 

Also my gf does work a lot. The reason why she doesn't have any money, is because her ex common law, cleaned her dry when she left him, she says, and she spent money that she had to pay her dad's medical bills since he is in ill health.

[BlueIris]

Please clarify:

 

1. Do you own a house? If so, is it worth more than the amount of the mortgage on it?

 

2. Do you own a business that

(a) has been formed and that you have invested money in?

(b) that is generating revenue now?

[carhill]

Do you have assets? Run a net worth analysis and take a look at the asset column. That's what you're addressing, in part, in a pre-nup. You're also addressing debt.

 

You said you were working overtime a lot lately. That indicates you have a job. Does that job have a retirement program and, if so, have you been participating? if yes, that's an asset.

 

Got a car? A boat? An RV? Stocks? Bonds? Pork bellies? Heh....all assets.

 

Your lawyer will need a list of everything, the significant stuff anyway, so plow through that now, regardless of how things go down with the GF. It's good to take inventory now and again. Now's as good a time as any.