Overwhelmed - MM has ended our affair

[Pili-Pala]

Thanks for all your posts. Especially yours Heartwhole. I read them all throughout today and reflected and found them useful and thought provoking.

 

However, in the last few hours xMM has broken NC. I am now just a mess of confusion and I am even struggling to construct a coherent sentence right now.

 

I thought I was prepared for this. I should have been prepared for this with all your warnings. But still it has floored me.

 

[Babsinhealing]

Thanks for all your posts. Especially yours Heartwhole. I read them all throughout today and reflected and found them useful and thought provoking.

 

However, in the last few hours xMM has broken NC. I am now just a mess of confusion and I am even struggling to construct a coherent sentence right now.

 

I thought I was prepared for this. I should have been prepared for this with all your warnings. But still it has floored me.

 

I am just catching up from posts this week and saw this... Oh no! Did you respond? What did he say?

[heartwhole]

Oh dear. Back for more cake, is he?

 

Well, there's your answer. He's still just as broken as ever. He's not invested in his family. He's still lying to his wife.

 

But does that change anything for you? Maybe there's a silver lining here. The ball is in your court. YOU can be the one who doesn't hit it back. You can be the one who walks away and chooses something else, something better. Yes, he still wants something with you. But that something is pitiful. You deserve better.

[Pili-Pala]

I am just catching up from posts this week and saw this... Oh no! Did you respond? What did he say?

 

I did Babs and I am furious with myself for doing so. Furious!!! I am even sitting here thinking on reflection it was actually my fault, perhaps I broke it first if I am honest with myself, I cracked the door open...

 

I am nervous to even write here what happened as I am starting to get paranoid that maybe he is reading this, or even worse his W, but I know that's is highly improbable and I really need the help of you guys so feel I need to be transparent on what was said so I will try.

 

Today was a bad day at work, it's actually been a bad couple of days for me and him for various work reasons I won't go into. But today our team didn't hit target for the first time in about three years. So I emailed him (in response to an email from our Md) saying how sad it was we missed target and he replied saying it's been the worst 24 hours of his life. Ok. To which I replied that I thought that was the most heartless thing he'd ever said to me. He then replied saying that wasn't what he meant and it's been the worse month of his life and that he gives up and everything he does turns to *****.

 

I ignored it. I hated that response. So much self pitying and self loathing and all that stuff I just don't need in my life right now. I refused to give it the time of day and was resolute in not responding.

 

Then after work he sent me a text. He said that he knows I don't want to hear from him but that he felt he had to make it clear that he wasn't referring to work and missing target. That work is the least of his issues right now and that he was referring to the mess of his life that he has created. He said that he is finding it more and more unbearable to be apart from me everyday, knowing that I hate him and that there is no way back, and watching his family completely falling apart as time goes by. That he knows it's thoughtless and stupid but that he had to explain that.

 

I replied. I said if he wanted to talk when he was back we could talk (just to interject here I know this was a stupid thing to say, but he is on holiday for two weeks and I have been speaking with my therapist about potentially having a more closure conversation and a discussion of how I want things to be with us in a a professional working environment relationship moving forward). I added that I shouldn't even be texting him back, one of many reasons being that's I owe that much to his wife and that I hope for her sake she does not see that text.

 

He then replied saying she hasn't. And that at the moment he wasn't even sure he was going on holiday.

 

I replied and said I was glad she hadn't seen it. And that I doubted that very much and have a nice holiday.

 

 

Argh!!!! I have not helped myself here one little bit. I should have just ignored it all. This was exactly what I said to my therapist I was worried would happen if I started trying to return to a working relationship that we had. I knew if I gave him an inch he would take a mile and I am making it so so so so much worse. And now he is away for two weeks and it's just awful. Though on the other hand I am relieved. Relieved that maybe those two weeks will mean I can salvage this situation and pick myself back up and remind myself why I have to be resolute in this. Absolutely resolute. But I need your help! Please! Be brutal!!

 

I am an idiot. I am my own worst enemy.

[heartwhole]

Deep breaths. Don't be too hard on yourself. You do have to work with the guy. It's hard to toe that line.

 

You've got two weeks ahead of you to regroup and come back stronger and with a new battle plan.

 

He's still an entitled person who thinks first of himself. It's not your responsibility to protect his wife's interests. That's his responsibility alone. Notice how in this scenario you are the only one worrying about her. That speaks volumes about his (lack of) character.

 

It's possibly he was trying to get you to say, "Please don't go on holiday! Let's give it a shot! Pick me! Pick me!" And you didn't. You told him to go. Not responding would have been better, but it could have been worse too.

 

OK, so this all started because he showed his true colors by acting like a work catastrophe could possibly be worse than what he's done to you and his wife. And you called him out on it. In retrospect it would have been better just to file it away under the "he's an a-hole" heading, but hard to resist pointing that out. So now you know. He's an a-hole. Just worried about himself, feeling sorry for himself, entitled, expecting YOU to make him feel better about it all. Life can be hard; life can be stressful. Some people expect accolades just for showing up and being an adult. I've had to stop that in my own marriage. I was so eager to reinforce positive behavior that I was giving him the impression that being an ordinary adult was extraordinary. And when you do that, the person just wants more, expects more. They don't say, "Thank you so much for noticing. Now I'm going to have good coping skills and be reasonable from here on out." They say, "AND I did the dishes too!" Oh did you? Let Mommy put a sticker on the chart . . .

 

To review, all you did was call him out on his BS and possibly set up a time for better closure/guidelines in the future. He baited you, and you ended the conversation by telling him to have a good trip (with his family). The reality is that you work together, and unless you are going to change that, then you will have to be on constant guard not to cross the line into personal conversations. And that is hard when even a look can say a lot.

 

I think you should stop panicking and look at this from a positive light. He showed his true colors. You didn't take the bait. You will work on better constraints going forward.

[Babsinhealing]

I did Babs and I am furious with myself for doing so. Furious!!! I am even sitting here thinking on reflection it was actually my fault, perhaps I broke it first if I am honest with myself, I cracked the door open...

 

I am nervous to even write here what happened as I am starting to get paranoid that maybe he is reading this, or even worse his W, but I know that's is highly improbable and I really need the help of you guys so feel I need to be transparent on what was said so I will try.

 

Today was a bad day at work, it's actually been a bad couple of days for me and him for various work reasons I won't go into. But today our team didn't hit target for the first time in about three years. So I emailed him (in response to an email from our Md) saying how sad it was we missed target and he replied saying it's been the worst 24 hours of his life. Ok. To which I replied that I thought that was the most heartless thing he'd ever said to me. He then replied saying that wasn't what he meant and it's been the worse month of his life and that he gives up and everything he does turns to *****.

 

I ignored it. I hated that response. So much self pitying and self loathing and all that stuff I just don't need in my life right now. I refused to give it the time of day and was resolute in not responding.

 

Then after work he sent me a text. He said that he knows I don't want to hear from him but that he felt he had to make it clear that he wasn't referring to work and missing target. That work is the least of his issues right now and that he was referring to the mess of his life that he has created. He said that he is finding it more and more unbearable to be apart from me everyday, knowing that I hate him and that there is no way back, and watching his family completely falling apart as time goes by. That he knows it's thoughtless and stupid but that he had to explain that.

 

I replied. I said if he wanted to talk when he was back we could talk (just to interject here I know this was a stupid thing to say, but he is on holiday for two weeks and I have been speaking with my therapist about potentially having a more closure conversation and a discussion of how I want things to be with us in a a professional working environment relationship moving forward). I added that I shouldn't even be texting him back, one of many reasons being that's I owe that much to his wife and that I hope for her sake she does not see that text.

 

He then replied saying she hasn't. And that at the moment he wasn't even sure he was going on holiday.

 

I replied and said I was glad she hadn't seen it. And that I doubted that very much and have a nice holiday.

 

 

Argh!!!! I have not helped myself here one little bit. I should have just ignored it all. This was exactly what I said to my therapist I was worried would happen if I started trying to return to a working relationship that we had. I knew if I gave him an inch he would take a mile and I am making it so so so so much worse. And now he is away for two weeks and it's just awful. Though on the other hand I am relieved. Relieved that maybe those two weeks will mean I can salvage this situation and pick myself back up and remind myself why I have to be resolute in this. Absolutely resolute. But I need your help! Please! Be brutal!!

 

I am an idiot. I am my own worst enemy.

Pili-pala- you are not an idiot... No self-hating allowed. You just did what most of us would probably do with the first break in NC... It's ok. No one is here to judge you. We just want you happy again so people give tough love to spare you what they went thru when they broke NC. It's normal to want to respond- you still care for him deeply and you still crave attention.

 

I have no clue what I would do if my XMM reached out... Or showed up. I try to prepare myself but when faced with it, one never knows. You do however have an opportunity to take a few weeks a regroup now that he's going away. It's amazing what a few weeks can do for your recovery. Try to plan it out and if healing is what you want- go into that mindset.

 

Everyone has had a few set backs so it's normal... You are normal. However, I know this will send you reeling... Why did I do that... What if I just ignored it... But you can't go back and change it - the past is over. Accept it happened, regroup and just plan for next steps... Simple (which is hopefully sleep

 

(Hugs)

[ladydesigner]

I did Babs and I am furious with myself for doing so. Furious!!! I am even sitting here thinking on reflection it was actually my fault, perhaps I broke it first if I am honest with myself, I cracked the door open...

 

I am nervous to even write here what happened as I am starting to get paranoid that maybe he is reading this, or even worse his W, but I know that's is highly improbable and I really need the help of you guys so feel I need to be transparent on what was said so I will try.

 

Today was a bad day at work, it's actually been a bad couple of days for me and him for various work reasons I won't go into. But today our team didn't hit target for the first time in about three years. So I emailed him (in response to an email from our Md) saying how sad it was we missed target and he replied saying it's been the worst 24 hours of his life. Ok. To which I replied that I thought that was the most heartless thing he'd ever said to me. He then replied saying that wasn't what he meant and it's been the worse month of his life and that he gives up and everything he does turns to *****.

 

I ignored it. I hated that response. So much self pitying and self loathing and all that stuff I just don't need in my life right now. I refused to give it the time of day and was resolute in not responding.

 

Then after work he sent me a text. He said that he knows I don't want to hear from him but that he felt he had to make it clear that he wasn't referring to work and missing target. That work is the least of his issues right now and that he was referring to the mess of his life that he has created. He said that he is finding it more and more unbearable to be apart from me everyday, knowing that I hate him and that there is no way back, and watching his family completely falling apart as time goes by. That he knows it's thoughtless and stupid but that he had to explain that.

 

I replied. I said if he wanted to talk when he was back we could talk (just to interject here I know this was a stupid thing to say, but he is on holiday for two weeks and I have been speaking with my therapist about potentially having a more closure conversation and a discussion of how I want things to be with us in a a professional working environment relationship moving forward). I added that I shouldn't even be texting him back, one of many reasons being that's I owe that much to his wife and that I hope for her sake she does not see that text.

 

He then replied saying she hasn't. And that at the moment he wasn't even sure he was going on holiday.

 

I replied and said I was glad she hadn't seen it. And that I doubted that very much and have a nice holiday.

 

 

Argh!!!! I have not helped myself here one little bit. I should have just ignored it all. This was exactly what I said to my therapist I was worried would happen if I started trying to return to a working relationship that we had. I knew if I gave him an inch he would take a mile and I am making it so so so so much worse. And now he is away for two weeks and it's just awful. Though on the other hand I am relieved. Relieved that maybe those two weeks will mean I can salvage this situation and pick myself back up and remind myself why I have to be resolute in this. Absolutely resolute. But I need your help! Please! Be brutal!!

 

I am an idiot. I am my own worst enemy.

 

 

(((Pili-Pala))) you can start over again right this second. Just brush yourself off and try again. The breaking of NC from both sides is very common. It's like needing that extra hit and then once you get it you are left satisfied for a moment and then all the bad comes rushing back. It's a process and the longer you stay NC the easier it gets. Don't let it get to you and you are surely not an idiot you are someone who still has strong feelings.

[privategal]

Remember, we are not the NC police.

His thinking was, I am going on holiday but left her broken...let me pretend to care so she doesnt hate me even worse when I come back, let me show remorse that I am looking disheveled broken and upset.

If his wife is checking his phone log he is an idiot.

He was trying to sweet talk you into soothing words like "I understand its hard for you, Im sorry you are hurting.."

I might as well be a professor of this game. If he looked like he was going under duress and was SO broken up, if he got you to feel sorry for him, looking like he was suffering and miserable while he went away looking like the ideal reformed family man and husband of the year, he wins!

The wife gets a great vaca, the ow is on the line "understanding" of the pain he must be in...pleeaassee dont let your emotion win over your head!

You were able to spot it when you said .have a nice holiday" YOU GO GIRL!

See! Already your spotting he isnt going to be able to lie to you, you are too smart.

Ok, you spoke to him, he spoke back, you showed you arent dumb..your message is clear..you were writing about work...he was writing about the A.

There IS no more A.

He chose his W.

-look for work elewhere, begin a jobsearch(sorry if its been discussed and I missed it)

-stop breaking nc...today IS on you, Im sorry

-when he gets back he will be blocked on your personal email and cell and you will have worked with your therapist on a plan when he approaches at work or on company numbers and email

-P, hes going away with his FAMILY...You are ready to be done now right? RIGHT???

Hugs.

[jenkins95]

Pili-pala, big cwtsh for you (((pili-pala)))

 

Just caught up with the latest posts - poor you it must be so difficult when you have to maintain a working relationship after something so traumatic.

 

I think he is over playing the feeling sorry for himself "I ruin everything I touch" card. I think we've all been there, but he seems to be using it to get round you and play with your mind.

 

Some great supportive posts by the other posters. Yes, breaches of NC are so common in the early days. Brush yourself down and get back on the path again! Don't let it send you back to square 1. You have been doing amazingly well - you can do it.

 

There have been lots of posts about breaches of NC in the past few days - every one of them has shown the damage it does. Nothing positive comes from breaking NC.

 

Keep posting PP, we are here for you always!

[privategal]

P, you said this about him

"he is genuinely the best boss I have ever had. I completely admire him as a colleague" but yet you reached out cause the team didnt make the goal and he dumped a bunch of selfish self serving self pity comments on you when you are already down and hurting that he ended the A and is going on holiday with his wife.

I want to just help get you out of crying mode and help shake you back into being angry enough to end this.

How convenient he says its HIS worst month ever...but not until YOU reach out and then its about HIM.

DONT be sad. Be GLAD he is showing true colors again.

You Had to break contact today to see it. ITS OK though. So many have, but instead of being upset with your self...just see from it what you needed to.

Pila you gave 100 reasons not to get another job. You really should.

[Pili-Pala]

Ok, big big thank you everyone. I have found your posts so so helpful. I know you are not the NC police, but what is so great is that you guys suggest to me different perspectives and opinions which really helps me to process the event, and to rationalise it all in a way that helps me to pick myself back up off the floor and regroup.

 

Heartwhole, Babsinhealing, Ladydesigner, Privategal, Jenkins - you are all helping me see a way forward from this.

 

I just need to brush myself off and try again. See this as a reminder of his true colours. Take away the positives and not dwell on the negatives. Regroup and start over right again this second.

 

I should never have broken NC myself, I see that so clearly now, but it is in the past and done and nothing I can do to change that now. What is interesting is I didn't even notice my own strength in my contact. I did call him out on his BS. I did not take the bait and give him the understanding and sympathy he craves nor build him up as I would have done in the past. I called him out on his lies and manipulation and I told him to have a lovely holiday. I suppose his silence in response to my last text is a positive that I have perhaps gone some way to make it clear that I am done with this. So it could have been a lot worse. And next time, I will try to be stronger to just not respond at all. As heartwhole says I need to find the strength not to respond and to just file it away in the "he's an a-hole" folder and save my stickers for a more worthier trier!

 

Thank you.

 

 

p.s Privategal. I know the best, or I should say easiest, solution is to leave work. I would be the first to say this to anyone else. But I have to try this way first. I have tried to reason with myself and talked through all the pros and cons with therapist but I just have to try this first - and in my case he supports it, though he admitted it will be a tough road and a lot of effort and by far won't be the easiest route; but he also thinks if I achieve it it could be a better way to deal with it, as I am facing it head on and not just applying out of sight out of mind. The work with my solutions-focused therapist is purely all towards a goal of having back a professional working relationship with no route back to A ever. I went to a person-centred therapist last year, whilst in the A, about the situation in general and I have done all that self-discovering and self-awareness piece - I think I know why and how I am in my situation etc. So this therapy is really a practical thing for me as I want to achieve my goal and I believe I have the character to make it work if I can just get the right resources in place. I already felt like I was making so so much progress on this but I recognised that I had not been challenged yet - well I guess this was my first challenge. I have given myself a deadline that if there is no significant improvement (of which I have set myself a clear definition) by a certain date I will go - though part of me thinks he will have left by then, so perhaps really I am just riding that out. I also just wanted to say that I am glad you didn't take your break from LS just yet (which you mentioned in another thread) - as I would never have had the support from your posts. Thank you.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Pili-Pala

[Babsinhealing]

It's a new day Pila-Pila... Hope you slept well. You did stay strong in your communication so you should be proud. Don't dwell on breaking NC just figure out how to prevent it in the future (hugs)

[Pili-Pala]

I have been a bit quiet on forum lately but I have been here lurking. I want to update although I must admit I have been nervous about doing so as there seems some very antagonising posters around lately. But I could do with some support and some other perspectives, so here I am.

 

I am in a dilemma. To remind you xMM sent me a text the evening before he left for a two week holiday saying things were a mess at home etc. Since he has been away this first week we have been sending the odd one liners back and fore over email - veiled in work talk. I have had a very very tough week in work for reasons related to work and I know xMM just feels awful he is not there to support me and I feel lost without him (as both my xMM and my boss) so I haven't exactly discouraged the contact. Anyway his last email first thing yesterday morning said that he hopes its not too late to talk when he gets back. I haven't responded and he has left it so far.

 

I will not be returning to the A.

 

I really feel strongly about not getting back in the A. I feel like I have been there and done that last year and my eyes are completely open this time. My mind has shifted and this is not something I want or desire anymore. So my dilemma is not that. I feel confident in that. I feel confident that I can talk to him and that it might be a good thing for our professional relationship (I can't remember if I mentioned my therapist and I have been talking about doing this but we were giving it until the end of April) without it concluding in being back in the A.

 

So what is my dilemma? Well it's this - what if he still wants to leave? Or to rephrase that what do I do if he is going to take action to leave?

 

I feel atm rather than him sounding me out as to whether I will go back into A I think he might be sounding me out as to if I will still be there if he leaves. It sounds crazy to say this is what is causing me so much anguish. But I feel like I have spent the last few months trying to turn myself "against him". Spent so long reading about how broken MM are, how it might have been the worst thing for me to have ended up together in "proper" relationship with him, how difficult it will be for me with W and kids since there has been a dday, and read all the statistics stacked against us. I have started to see the positives for me in this A ending, and imagining a possible future without him in my personal life and eventually without this pain and overwhelming feeling of loss in the future - even considered the possibility of trying to find another man, a more suitable available man. But what if he still wants to leave and is going to take action to do so? What do I do when faced with that possibility? As despite all of what I just said I still absolutely love him. All of him. I love how I am with him. I love us. And I have never been able to truly imagine myself with anybody else.

 

I haven't not chosen him, I have just chosen to no longer be in an A.

 

I know many of you will say he wants to get me back into the A, end of. You could be right. I guess we'll see. That might be what he wants and is planning. But I am not concerned about that, if that is his motive, as I simply won't let that happen again. I have been there before and I am in such a different place this time having been through this last year since then and through these last 3 months since dday. I am genuinely not worried about this at all as A is not an option for me now or ever.

 

But if he leaves then it's not a question of going back into the A. This changes the situation. I guess to put it simply it's a dilemma of do I say "if you leave your wife then call me" or do I say "if you leave you wife don't call me"?

 

And I am totally and utterly confused with what I want - my gut is saying I want to be with him but my head can't forget all this new found perspective. And although it is his life and his choices and as much as he won't be leaving for me - I think I can't get away from the fact he will in some part be leaving for me and it's naive for me to say otherwise. I am worried love won't be enough for us to work.

 

I am also worried he is going to drag me back into this limbo of saying he is going to leave and never actually going through with it again. I have never doubted that he wants to leave I just doubted his decision he would (i.e his ability to act on wants). So part of me thinks I shouldn't even entertain that as that is as bad as being back in A. So I need to find a plan for that. But what if it's real this time? What if he is ready to take action now? What if now with a nod from me he will do it and I don't give him that nod?

 

Well that's where I am. And I have a week to decide. However, I suppose I don't know for sure what he is going to say - but there are only three ways the conversation will go as I see it, and I am prepared for the other two. I don't want to be floored if it's the third way and I want to consider my move now when I am calm and rational.

 

As I have written that out I am starting to feel like I am wasting a lot of energy and causing myself a lot of anxiety over something that might not even happen. It could very well be one of the other two things - but perhaps thinking about all this will help me to progress, so maybe it's not wasted even if it turns out to be purely hypothetical.

 

Thanks for reading - I know that was a bit of a 'my thoughts' dump.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi PP!

 

I think it is one thing saying he is going to leave and another thing actually going through with it. From all the stories I have read on this board it doesn't sound like 'leaving' happens overnight. It takes months and months and then it still doesn't seem to happen. You are right though, if he knows you are not prepared to go back into an A, he might say all the right things to you about leaving his wife.

 

And just say he does leave his wife. What a mess it would be with the trauma of all of that to jump into another relationship straight away. You may need to say we both need some time and space and let's wait a few months and see if we still feel the same way. There are SO many stories of MM on here who leave their wife's for a few days or few weeks and then go back!! That would be completely heartbreaking for you.

 

If he gives you this option (that he is leaving) don't take it at face value. It's only words. You need to see serious actions. Don't let him see you going weak and caving in because then he gets the best of both worlds again and will string it out. Say to him you want him to leave his wife because he would have anyway. You can't be the sole reason. And then still maintain your distance. If he is serious about it then you will see/know proof. If not, you are back in the exact same situation that you are now. And you don't want to undo all that hard work you have already done in starting to gain perspective. Hugs

[heartwhole]

It can't be fun to have this question mark hanging over you for the next week. Does it seem selfish to you that MM just had to ask you if you'd be able to talk while you've got a bad work week and another week of not seeing him to get through?

 

I've always imagined that when a MM does leave his marriage for the OW, that it adds this layer of guilt and obligation to their relationship out in the open. The relationship may fall flat out in the real world, but you feel obligated to make it work because he gave up so much for you.

 

So that's where I think the key is, as you know . . . if he leaves, it can't be FOR you. It can't be because you gave him a nod or didn't give him a nod. It has to be what he will do just knowing that you might have a future or you might not. Because you don't want to put that pressure on yourself to make your relationship work for better or for worse.

 

It also sounds like you've shifted your perspective to see the areas of weakness which have led him to have multiple affairs and be unable to deal with the problems in his marriage. Can you envision a way for him to work on himself and sort himself out if he jumps right from his marriage into a relationship with you?

 

He has already said he wants to leave or "tried" to leave several times. So if you view that optimistically, you say he was just building up momentum to finally go through with it. If you view that pessimistically, you say that if he was going to leave for good, he would have done so already.

 

You do love him, and of course a big part of you wants to know if you could make it in the real world. No one begrudges you for that. We just want you to carefully consider whether this will lead to a happy and healthy life for you. If he only leaves because you give him a nod, then he's going to be able to blame you for it, right? Because apparently he is impotent to make any decisions on his own. His wife goes hysterical and he makes life-altering decisions based on an emotional outburst. He doesn't have the strength to leave, but if you promise you'll be there to fill all his needs, then he'll do it.

 

It just sounds to me like he has a lot of work to do on himself. Once he becomes a healthier, more grounded, more giving person, then his relationship problems should resolve. He'll either have the presence of mind and strength of character to commit to his marriage in a healthy way, or he'll have the clarity and follow-through to end a marriage that he knows will never work. But he shouldn't need you or his wife to be this person. He's the only one who can do that for himself.

[solonely9]

Hi, Pili-Pala. It is so nice to hear from you and I'm sorry you've been having a rough week.

 

It is so good that you've decided not to stay in the affair. It is empowering to know what you need and want.

 

About your dilemma, let him decide on his own, if he leaves his marriage. If he is waiting for an approval from you, he is making it your decision as well and, later on, if things don't work out between the two of you, he might blame you for pressuring him into a relationship that he was not ready for.

 

I understand that you love this man and that you want to be with him, but, really, don't wait for him to make up his mind. Live your life, move on, consider other guys, and, as for him, let him deal with his marital problems with his wife. This is really their issue only. And, one day, if he shows up at your door, free and wanting a real relationship with you, don't feel guilty to turn him down, if you've moved on already.

 

When you have your talk, refuse to participate in any decision-making in regards to him leaving his marriage. Stick to your interests and priorities only. You don't want to be in an affair anymore. You've made up your mind. Tell him that. What he is going to do with his life is his problem only. Also, don't fall for it in case he asks you to be around, while he is going through a separation. You've been there, he changed his mind, and it hurt you so much that you still cannot recover.

 

You're doing great, Pili-Pala. Hugs

Edited April 10, 2016 by solonely9

[Cymbeline]

I think a significant reason affair relationship behind rarely Turn into a successful marriage is not so much that AP s are not compatible in the long term, but that the emotional carnage surrounding the affair and divorce leaves so much muck behind that just has to be lived with. The challenges of creating something lasting on the back of so much unhappiness and less than ideal behaviour is simply too much for a partnership to bear in many cases. And you will always be in close contact with his first family.

 

So if you are to stand a chance as a couple, I'd guess that making a clear distance between you while the divorce happens is your best shot.

 

But he has had one marriage and at least thre affairs. It is t a great track record.

[Babsinhealing]

Hi Pili-Pala- so nice to see you back posting. I think this question haunts any OW, especially when the A has shown long term care, love and respect between AP. We all probably think "what would it be like to be in a real relationship?" But I have to agree with others, he should leave because he no longer loves his wife and no longer wants to be married. It should not be for you to see if you would be a better life option for him. This would be a tremendous amount of stress on you to make sure you make him happy and you help him move forward beyond his broken marriage. I think it's much healthier for all involved for him to leave, get his affairs (no pun intended) in order, set up a new home, and be in a healthier position to start a new relationship. At that time if you still want to be together, it's less pressure for both.

 

Also consider the hate you would have to endure from his family and children and ex wife while you try to become integrated into his life if he left them for you. Again, a lot of added stress. Whereas if he took some time and "met someone new" (aka you) after he got divorced and started living his new life, it would be expected as he's now single.

 

I know how we want to imagine every scenario (I'm guilty myself) so I can see why this is weighing on you- but just protect yourself and future. I just want you happy! (Hugs).

[georgia girl]

Pili-Pala,

 

Here are my thoughts only. As others have said, I wouldn't engage in a conversation about his next moves. If he wants to/tries to go there, I would simply tell him that it wasn't a discussion you were willing to have and at this point, you are moving on and your focus is on re-establishing a professional relationship with him. If he asks if he ever has a chance in the future, I would tell him that any opportunity he would have would be years into the future as he would need to complete a number of steps that would make him a desirable partner for any woman. Therefore, not only is it impossible for you to predict that far out, it would be unfair to both of you to do so. Instead, you will be focusing go yourself and building your best future and you hope for his sake, he does the same for himself.

 

Then, I would look him straight in the eye and tell him it's time to get back to work. You need him to be the boss that will help you be successful. If he can't/won't do that, you will find an opportunity where you can have the engaging professional environment that you deserve.

 

Make this about you, your needs, your goals, your recovery. I promise you, if he REALLY is going to make a change, a real man will make that change regardless of you rebuffing him and he will do everything in his power to honorably win your heart a second time. If he does, make him work his butt off to win you. He will appreciate you more and you will earn back your own self-confidence.

 

Good luck!!!

[Pili-Pala]

You may need to say we both need some time and space and let's wait a few months and see if we still feel the same way. There are SO many stories of MM on here who leave their wife's for a few days or few weeks and then go back!! That would be completely heartbreaking for you.

 

[…] Say to him you want him to leave his wife because he would have anyway. You can't be the sole reason. And then still maintain your distance. If he is serious about it then you will see/know proof. If not, you are back in the exact same situation that you are now. And you don't want to undo all that hard work you have already done in starting to gain perspective.

 

Thanks Grey Cloud. I often agree with what you say. Him leaving and going back is a massive fear for me. I am a fairly strong person overall but that is the one thing I think would absolutely destroy me. This is why I have to be sure in myself its worth the risk. I don't think I would ever be the sole reason, but maintaining my distance for a few months seems a fair suggestion - perhaps will lessen the risk of him destroying me by going back.

 

 

It is so good that you've decided not to stay in the affair. It is empowering to know what you need and want.

 

Hello Solonley! I do feel very empowered and very content at finding peace with choosing not to be in an affair ever again. I have actually completely decided the NC approach would never have worked for me, and I have chosen an alternative path. Who knows if it will work, time will tell if its stands up I guess!

 

Thanks for other advice too - I agree with much of it. Especially that I have to be clear this is his decision and I will not be party to making it. And I will absolutely make it clear that return to an A is not and never will be an option. I agree that I probably do need to not be around for the separation but that is a bit I am struggling a little with at the moment, but I think I cross that road if I ever come to it! Thanks for the support!

 

I think a significant reason affair relationship behind rarely turn into a successful marriage is not so much that AP s are not compatible in the long term, but that the emotional carnage surrounding the affair and divorce leaves so much muck behind that just has to be lived with. The challenges of creating something lasting on the back of so much unhappiness and less than ideal behaviour is simply too much for a partnership to bear in many cases. And you will always be in close contact with his first family.

 

So if you are to stand a chance as a couple, I'd guess that making a clear distance between you while the divorce happens is your best shot.

 

Yes fair comment - depressing isn't it. I agree with you on our best chance, but a divorce is 1 to 2 years away and so perhaps not totally realistic I could wait it out. I think however, the success also in part depends on the people involved and how they approach it. I know a lot of families with separated parents, and some from affairs, and those that have worked the best have involved people who in my opinion have handled the situation as absolutely best they could for all parties involved, especially the kids. Thats the hard part though - I can control how I approach it but not her nor him. Which is frustrating, but reality.

[Pili-Pala]

It can't be fun to have this question mark hanging over you for the next week. Does it seem selfish to you that MM just had to ask you if you'd be able to talk while you've got a bad work week and another week of not seeing him to get through?

 

I've always imagined that when a MM does leave his marriage for the OW, that it adds this layer of guilt and obligation to their relationship out in the open. The relationship may fall flat out in the real world, but you feel obligated to make it work because he gave up so much for you.

 

So that's where I think the key is, as you know . . . if he leaves, it can't be FOR you. It can't be because you gave him a nod or didn't give him a nod. It has to be what he will do just knowing that you might have a future or you might not. Because you don't want to put that pressure on yourself to make your relationship work for better or for worse.

 

It also sounds like you've shifted your perspective to see the areas of weakness which have led him to have multiple affairs and be unable to deal with the problems in his marriage. Can you envision a way for him to work on himself and sort himself out if he jumps right from his marriage into a relationship with you?

 

He has already said he wants to leave or "tried" to leave several times. So if you view that optimistically, you say he was just building up momentum to finally go through with it. If you view that pessimistically, you say that if he was going to leave for good, he would have done so already.

 

You do love him, and of course a big part of you wants to know if you could make it in the real world. No one begrudges you for that. We just want you to carefully consider whether this will lead to a happy and healthy life for you. If he only leaves because you give him a nod, then he's going to be able to blame you for it, right? Because apparently he is impotent to make any decisions on his own. His wife goes hysterical and he makes life-altering decisions based on an emotional outburst. He doesn't have the strength to leave, but if you promise you'll be there to fill all his needs, then he'll do it.

 

It just sounds to me like he has a lot of work to do on himself. Once he becomes a healthier, more grounded, more giving person, then his relationship problems should resolve. He'll either have the presence of mind and strength of character to commit to his marriage in a healthy way, or he'll have the clarity and follow-through to end a marriage that he knows will never work. But he shouldn't need you or his wife to be this person. He's the only one who can do that for himself.

 

 

Thanks heartwhole, there is a lot in this hence I have separated the response, and I really appreciate you commenting as I realise this must be a difficult topic for a BS trying reconciliation. So big heartfelt thanks to you.

 

No I don't see it as selfish. He spent the whole week just sending me supportive messages about work. This last message was acknowledging my previous message, wishing me a restful weekend, and simply said he hopes its not too late to talk when he gets back. It was me who suggested on the text before his holiday that we can talk when he gets back - I think this was just his way of saying nothing has miraculously changed on his holiday so far and he feels the same as when he left. Some could see it as manipulative I suppose, but I don't really see it like that right now with where we are.

 

Re: his weaknesses. I am not blind to his flaws and issues and I am not naive enough to think they can't effect our relationship too. A lot of their issues though we don't and won't have as a couple. I mean private/personal things that I don't want to go into here, as that is not fair as its not my stuff to air. But suffice to say there are a number of issues they have, experiences they had to deal with, that we don't have and hopefully never will. But I realise there are some issues he has that could affect us … as do I too!…. and also just the trauma of being in a relationship which has come out of all this chaos and hurt and the "muck left behind" (to quote Cymbeline) might benefit from some professional help to navigate. And so I would definitely definitely arrange therapy for us - without a doubt. That will be a non-negotiable condition. But overall I think we have, or I should say had, a much healthier relationship then his W and him. I am the first to admit that he and our situation made me a much better person in a relationship - as believe me I had a lot of problems in relationships; its why I ended up there (in this A) in the first place!

 

..I don't know, maybe all that is naive. Maybe he has got too much going on for him to fix. Maybe the cicrumstanes are too hard to "get over". But yes, a big part of me does want to know if we can make it work.

 

I absolutely agree with the obligation and guilt adding a layer. This is a HUGE thing for me. This is why I have never ever asked him to leave for me once, and why I have always told him he can't leave for me. When dday happened this is what upset me the most; that from that point on he could never leave without it being about me. I didn't want that for me, him, her or his kids. I really felt it was the absolutely worst possible outcome. Firstly it makes the whole thing so much messier. Secondly, I really fear I will get stuck in a relationship that doesn't work out due to guilt. But I also realised how complicated and naive it is to say that it can't be for me…

 

So to get to the point of him leaving and not for me. Which really is the big issue here. Ok, so, basically, if being with me (at least somewhere down the line) was not an option then no I don't think he would leave. Even now. But I don't think that means that he shouldn't - he just won't. I know people say kids are not a real reason MM stay, that they are just an excuse. But I really don't think that it is always an excuse. I think sometimes it is absolutely a reason they stay. I think my xMM knows his relationship is over, I think he has known it for the past 7 years. His W and he were living almost completely separate lives. They could go entire evenings not speaking and he could spend almost entire weekends with the kids without her. They had an almost business like relationship. I think truth be told they were even happy after dday to be sleeping in different beds and wished they had thought of it sooner. I think he knows eventually they will separate but he feels that he should stick it out for as long as she will have him there until the kids grow up. I think he feels it is his duty as a father to stay at home with the family and be miserable most of the time for the sake of his only joy - his kids.

 

But with me, I think he sees another joy, and I think he sees that joy as something he doesn't want to be without. And suddenly he has an alternative reality - one that could still include his kids but also include happiness. I also think he thinks the joy of us being together is worth all the other reasons, aside from his kids, that he has for not leaving (embarrassment, ego, sense of failure, other peoples opinion of him, financial issues etc.). If I am not an option then I don't think he sees those things as worth it, to be on his own. When being with me as an alternative reality is removed, then he doesn't think "well I should leave my M anyway as its over and be on my own". I think he thinks, "well then I should stick it out here then for the sake of my kids and for less hassle". Oh dear, I think its too hard to explain this without turning it into a novel! Do you get what I mean at all? I am not sure this is coming across how I mean it.

 

If you understand at all what I am trying to say, then I think the harsh reality is that if I tell him I won't be there for him then no he won't leave - well, not for another 10 years at least.

 

Though I also think that perhaps part of him now knows his W and he can't survive this this time - the options for him to "stick it out" isn't there anymore. The bearable business relationship might now have been replaced for one which is less bearable. And he is desperately worried he is going to lose me too, that he has lost me already. Some could say that is selfish - but I understand that feeling. I have some peace with that, I don't see it as second choice. I still don't feel I am competing.

 

Sorry - I don't think I am making much sense. I get frustrated by writing sometimes as I am trying really hard to make it concise and I feel frustrated that my words lose my meaning…

 

There is lots for me to think about here. Thank you for your support heartwhole.

[solonely9]

Hi, Pili-Pala.

 

There is really some great advice here in regards to your situation. For example, I completely agree with giorgia girl. I read her post a few times and what she says in her last paragraph is absolutely right - that a real man won't need you there to make a change. He will deal with his problems and, when he is ready, he will find you and he will try to win your heart again.

 

My XMM told me that, if he ever leaves his marriage, it will be, because he will want this for himself, not because of OW. He also told me that he would wait for some time until he starts dating again. He said that he would try to build a life for himself and then he would come to find me and see, if I still want him. But I'm not living with this hope. I just can't. It will, probably, never happen or it will take years. I'm not saying that it is impossible, but I can't imagine spending my time, waiting only for this to happen (Especially, after our last conversation, when he stated that he just couldn't imagine living with me because of my personality.)

 

However, no one here knows your situation better than you do. You say that he needs to know that you're there for him, so he can be stronger about all the consequences from the separation. I really don't want you to go through this, but, if you feel that you have to be by his side, just protect yourself. Just be prepared to be very strong, because he might change his mind again. He might take you for granted, for someone who will always be there, for someone he doesn't have to fight for.

 

I really hope that everything works out for you. I really do, because you do love this man, you've been through so much, and you've put a lot of thought in all your actions.

 

But, please, protect your heart.

 

Hugs.

[Pili-Pala]

Hi, Pili-Pala.

 

There is really some great advice here in regards to your situation. For example, I completely agree with giorgia girl. I read her post a few times and what she says in her last paragraph is absolutely right - that a real man won't need you there to make a change. He will deal with his problems and, when he is ready, he will find you and he will try to win your heart again.

 

My XMM told me that, if he ever leaves his marriage, it will be, because he will want this for himself, not because of OW. He also told me that he would wait for some time until he starts dating again. He said that he would try to build a life for himself and then he would come to find me and see, if I still want him. But I'm not living with this hope. I just can't. It will, probably, never happen or it will take years. I'm not saying that it is impossible, but I can't imagine spending my time, waiting only for this to happen (Especially, after our last conversation, when he stated that he just couldn't imagine living with me because of my personality.)

 

However, no one here knows your situation better than you do. You say that he needs to know that you're there for him, so he can be stronger about all the consequences from the separation. I really don't want you to go through this, but, if you feel that you have to be by his side, just protect yourself. Just be prepared to be very strong, because he might change his mind again. He might take you for granted, for someone who will always be there, for someone he doesn't have to fight for.

 

I really hope that everything works out for you. I really do, because you do love this man, you've been through so much, and you've put a lot of thought in all your actions.

 

But, please, protect your heart.

 

Hugs.

 

 

Thanks Solonley! Yes, I agree that there is a lot of things here for me to mull over. This is when this forum is at its best! I am so grateful for all the constructive contributors!

 

I am also trying to remind myself that this is only 1 of 3 scenarios I am preparing myself for. Re-reading my last couple of posts I feel I am may be getting carried away in the possibility now, and I need to ground myself and remind myself that I am simply thinking through the 1 of the 3 scenarios I am least sure how to respond to. There is every chance he will come back and try to get me back into the A and I don't want all this thinking to muddy my currently very clear decision there.

 

That was a good point Georgia Girl made. I also think GG's point about bringing the conversation around to our professional relationship is very important - I think I have lost sight of that. I mean this is what I wanted the conversation to be about in the first place. Whatever may or may not be said over our personal relationship it is not going to change the situation overnight, so the conversation about our professional working relationship has to be my top priority.

 

But I am certainly, with a safe amount of grounding in reality, going to think through some of this. It's a shame my therapist and I decided to take a two week vacation whilst xMM was away - we didn't see this coming :/ Thankfully you are all here to have my back to make sure I think this through rationally and protect myself

 

I feel so sad at the way your xMM treated you Solonely. I hope my xMM doesn't want to talk to just tell me what a mess I am and how I am not good enough for him! :S If he does though, I think that I will be crystal clear on my next move! The dust in his eyes will be all that is left in my wake...

[heartwhole]

You seem clear-headed and reasonable in your thinking. I'll just throw out my devil's advocate questions and ideas and see if anything makes you go 'hmmmm.'

 

I absolutely think children are a reason a lot of people stay. I would hope so! When you bring children into the world, you have a duty to provide them a safe, happy, structured environment. If there were no children in this scenario, your path would be a lot clearer, IMO. Some may disagree with me, but I believe you have a moral obligation to consider their well-being since they are innocents who will absolutely be affected by MM leaving, since MM has stated to you and demonstrated that he fears how leaving would affect them, and since he is passive and would be leaving the decision up to you. (I come from a family of clergy and ethicists and my IC says I am unusually principled, so keep that in mind.) If my husband and I did not have children, I doubt very much that I would have given him a second chance, but we do.

 

Whichever woman is the one MM chooses to make a future with must figure out if he can be trusted and if a future together is something she wants. Many BW may not feel empowered enough to adopt this perspective, but I would hope they would ask themselves these questions. Likewise, if the MM leaves and wants an open relationship with the OW, she must ask these questions as well. His past and recent behavior makes his character and judgment suspect, IMO. And then you add to that whatever issues led the OW to this type of relationship, and you can see why the divorce rate for marriages begun as affairs is a dismal 75%.

 

Simply as a matter of pride and self-respect, I would never want to be the one my husband "chooses" just because the other woman bowed out. As terrible and confusing as the days after DD were, I at least knew this. But I also believed, and the past year has proved, that if we both committed to our marriage, then we could make it great again. But we could not do that with a third person involved in our marriage. So in a way, your continued presence in his life may be dooming any chance he has of reconciliation. Surely he knows that the door with you is still open in some way.

 

IMO the only path that puts his children first is if you make him no promises and he leaves his marriage on his own, and after a respectable period of time has passed, you begin a relationship out in the open. Of course, if he does this, it won't be in a vacuum; it will be because your relationship affected his marriage and changed what he wanted. You were complicit as soon as you started the affair. But as far as taking your obligation as a potential future step-mother seriously, I think you should step back, encourage him as little as possible, and see where the chips fall. Just as I wouldn't want a man who stuck with me only for the kids or only because another woman didn't want him, I would ask if you want a relationship with a man who would have passively stayed with another woman if you hadn't pushed him. You can't undo the affair, but you can take steps to make sure that a future with him is begun right and considers his children first and foremost. It's an unfortunate fact that the single female affair partner is demonized and blamed much more than the married male AP, and for your own sake I would hope you would anticipate and attempt to protect yourself against that as much as possible.

 

What I fear is, though, that even if leaving and being together is what he's going to propose, that the cycle of what he's done before will repeat, and you'll wind up reinitiating the affair just to have him ultimately stay where he is out of guilt and passivity. And you don't deserve that.

 

I wouldn't stay in a marriage like the one you are describing, so I don't feel the need to defend BW against being left no matter what. But it's not as simple as that. The chances of your being hurt are high. The chances of the children being hurt are high. The chances of success are moderate, at best.

 

I don't think I could respect my husband if he hadn't put our children first. When OW emailed him that she was in love with him and did they have a chance, he said that having kids was a bell that couldn't be unrung and that he wouldn't be a part-time father like his brother, but sure, if she wanted to love him, go at it. She carried on anyway, obviously believing that if she just gave everything to the relationship, he would change his mind on being open to leaving. If he had left, of course I would have blamed him first and foremost, but I believe I would have always held it against her that she tried to change his mind even when he said it was not an option. I would have held it against her as a mother. As a woman, I would have said, he's all yours! But as a mother, I would have said, "How dare you?" And I believe her unfit to be my children's stepmother, not that I could do anything about it if he chose that route. But that's how I feel based on her choices. And this is coming from what I'd like to think is a compassionate and fair-minded person. If this is the path you choose, you must prepare yourself for the invective, for the self-righteous loathing, for the loss of standing in your community, for the gossip at work, etc.

 

This is not to say that it can't or even shouldn't work out with you and MM. I just think that if it is to work out, it will require both of you having great stores of strength and commitment. The risks and unknowns are very high. (Can you tell that I am a risk-averse person? I am!) But I wish you all the best, I really do. I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to defend the BW. I just want you to think hard about everything and everyone involved.

[solonely9]

Aw, Pili-Pala. Thank you, but don't be sad for me. Yes, his words about how I am hurt me at that moment, but not anymore. I am what I am and there are other people who like me exactly for this.

 

 

I read your post again, but I couldn't find what the third scenario is - 1) he wants to draw you back into the affair; 2) he wants to leave his marriage and needs your support, and 3)... I am sorry. I might have overlooked it, but what is the third one?

 

 

Another great post by heartwhole, by the way.

 

 

"IMO the only path that puts his children first is if you make him no promises and he leaves his marriage on his own, and after a respectable period of time has passed, you begin a relationship out in the open." - heartwhole

 

 

I completely agree with her here, but, as I've said, only you really know your situation.