My growing bitterness for men

[Wewon]

I lived it too.

 

Never met any ******* at the time. Like, ever. Only when online dating appeared.

 

You never met an a-hole until OLD?

 

That's pretty incredible.

[Woggle]

A lot of men in the 90s tried the nice and respectful approach and it blew up in their faces big time. Men are practical and we do what works so if being respectful and courting a woman actually worked more men would do it. When what most women say they want is what they actually is when the dating world will become a whole lot easier.

 

In no way am I making excuses for men who act like this but if we really do want to improve the state of relationships both genders need to take a look at themselves instead of just blaming men all the time.

[Woggle]

I lived through the 90s as well and there wasn't this deep hostility between the genders that there is now. Sure men were nicer but women also didn't go around saying she was drinking male tears whenever a man showed any hint of vulnerability. The genders didn't seem to look at each other as the enemy back then which of course makes it a much better environment for love and affection to flourish.

[Zapbasket]

 

Are you an eager and engaged conversationalist even when you're not interested in the man? If yes, I'm not saying it's wrong to do that, but I think many men will take it as a sign that you are interested. In my experience, women who aren't interested tend to act uninterested. They'll reply to questions with monosyllabic answers or short phrases. They won't seem to care if you have things in common. They'll look around the room, and in general, act disinterested because they are disinterested.

 

Are you suggesting the OP, and others of us in her situation, act this way? I'm really asking. I am very good at engaging all kinds of people; I love conversation and learning things about people; and I genuinely care about people as a whole. But guys have definitely gotten the wrong idea from my style. One guy said, "I've never been able to have conversations like this with anyone. You always make me feel good because you listen and ask questions." He wanted to date me and I was not at all interested. When I explained where I was coming from, he couldn't piece together how I couldn't be interested in him romantically when I seemed to be interested in things he had to say. I tried to explain that romantic interest and conversational interest are two entirely different things, and that in no way was I trying to lead him on.

 

To me, it's rude to act brazenly uninterested when someone is only trying to make conversation and may or may not be interested in dating me. Why would I brush off someone who was trying to be friendly; why would I presume he was interested? And frankly, isn't it a little dense to assume that just because someone is friendly and engages in conversation automatically MEANS they're harboring a romantic interest toward you?

[xxoo]

I worked in a primarily female building in the 90s, in my 20s. I had coworkers who were involved in affairs with married men, coworkers in physically abusive relationships, coworkers dealing with cheating husbands and controlling boyfriends. Men of the 80s and 90s weren't any better on the whole then men now. Neither were women.

 

They may have hid it better then. But people were exactly the same.

[AverageJoe1986]

You summed it up rather well here. I'll just add some additional thoughts.

 

A lot of decent guys have seen how many women will forgo all self respect and allow a hot, charming guy treat them like crap. I know I've seen it, and I'm sure plenty of guys here have too. That does not motivate guys to respect women, and treat them well. It makes guys resent women, and want to treat them poorly.

 

Yep. Current fake profile. Shelf-stacker at a supermarket. No ambition or motivation (because women love that in a guy right?). Really hot photos.

 

Guess how popular he is?

 

Yep. Can't keep them off him. Professional, really smart women. Their profiles are looking for similar, intelligent, funny, ambitious blah blah blah. They all want the tall, hot guy who couldn't give a crap.

 

That's how it really is.

[AverageJoe1986]

You summed it up rather well here. I'll just add some additional thoughts.

 

A lot of decent guys have seen how many women will forgo all self respect and allow a hot, charming guy treat them like crap. I know I've seen it, and I'm sure plenty of guys here have too. That does not motivate guys to respect women, and treat them well. It makes guys resent women, and want to treat them poorly.

 

And this is where the PUA culture as been so succesful at converting so many men, and why you have this problem that women now cite about guys trying to 'negg' them and make everything overtly sexual. Because around 80% of men are just made to feel invisible by women in a sexual context they search out fixes to their problem and PUA culture tells them that it doesn't matter what they look like as long as they metaphorically crap on them from a great height women will go weak at the knees. Then the women in turn complain that there are no decent guys out there. Well there were but that wasn't what you were looking for so they all decided to become ar5eh0les.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I know that many men feel just as disillusioned with women as the OP does with men, but being a woman naturally I experience that side of things myself.

 

Never until I came to LoveShack had I heard of PUA. What an ugly thing. Luckily that seems to have died down but then I was SHOCKED (no kidding) to read on here that a whole bunch of men think that they need to have sex with a woman BEFORE "deciding' whether or not to have a relationship with her. Like it's a one sided thing and they are ENTITLED to a "test drive." Lots of guys on here chimed in to agree with that.

 

I have never even heard of that in real life. Sure people have sex with each other like after drinking at a party and end up bonding and in a relationship but I had no clue that pre-relationship sex is now a REQUIREMENT for a lot of guys!!

 

And the way men "s*** shaming" and "fat shaming" women is somehow socially acceptable. And how women are derided for being "shallow" for choosing to date guys they are attracted to rather than give any guy a chance because the guy considers himself to be "nice." Sheesh.

 

Guys, I understand that you have your own complaints about women (in general) and I am not minimizing them, just talking about some of the ones that stand out about guys, to me. Luckily mostly just on LoveShack and elsewhere on the Internet. I have a guy who is as horrified as I am by that kind of thing. And other men in my life like friends, brother, dad who would NEVER.

 

I am just very grateful that I don't need to be trying to date in this climate. My heart goes out to the sincere guys and girls that are braving it.

[jay1983]

OP I haven't too much too of your stuff, but if I understand correctly, you're a BBW with a daughter looking for tall thin men with no kids.

 

Well........

[Aniela]

OP I haven't too much too of your stuff, but if I understand correctly, you're a BBW with a daughter looking for tall thin men with no kids.

 

Well........

 

It happens. You seem to be implying that it doesn't (ever).

[Aniela]

Well, that's just mean. (the comment above.)

[OnlyHonesty]

It's probably simpler than you think. You are not attracted to nice guys, they either bore the heck out of you, are too sensitive or just don't get your heart racing so they either become invisible to you, friend zoned or are just passed by in another way.

 

If you have some how managed to only have relationships or dates with bad boys then that is because that's what you are attracted to. Your post reminded me of

 

 

I doubt there are many women that would ever truthfully admit that what they keep on finding is in fact what they find attractive, who wants to admit they find that attractive for what ever reason?

[AverageJoe1986]

It happens. You seem to be implying that it doesn't (ever).

 

Yeah, winning the lottery happens. But no one seriously banks on it happning and then complains if it doesn't.

 

Another double standard as if a chubby bald guy came on here saying how he cannot find a young, slim hot woman to go out with him he'd be told to be more realistic.

 

All women are beautiful no matter how they look. Hardly any men are given the compliment. An overweight woman is 'natural' or a REAL woman. A bald man is just a bald man. A short guy is not man enough to make a woman feel feminine.

[WaitingForBardot]

...

And the way men "s*** shaming" and "fat shaming" women is somehow socially acceptable.

...

...and the very next reply...

 

OP I haven't too much too of your stuff, but if I understand correctly, you're a BBW with a daughter looking for tall thin men with no kids.

 

Well........

Wow.

[spriggan2]

It's absolutely impossible to find the right balance because every girl is different, every guy is different, everyone's been through different experiences, it's something that's rarely directly communicated, many girl's get turned off when guys ask permission to kiss or be physical, everyone has different desires for a relationships at different points in time. I dont think you can just blame one gender for this.

[jay1983]

...and the very next reply...

 

 

Wow.

 

Wow what, how is that shaming? I don't get it.

 

We used to have a dude on here everyday crying cause he couldn't pull a big breasted hottie 10 years younger than him. Everyone told him, he was shooting out of his league.

[AverageJoe1986]

Wow what, how is that shaming? I don't get it.

 

We used to have a dude on here everyday crying cause he couldn't pull a big breasted hottie 10 years younger than him. Everyone told him, he was shooting out of his league.

 

Yep. Huge double standard. BBW is universal but I don't see SBM (short beautiful man) or SBCHM (short bald chubby handsome man).

[neowulf]

I know that many men feel just as disillusioned with women as the OP does with men, but being a woman naturally I experience that side of things myself.

 

Never until I came to LoveShack had I heard of PUA. What an ugly thing. Luckily that seems to have died down but then I was SHOCKED (no kidding) to read on here that a whole bunch of men think that they need to have sex with a woman BEFORE "deciding' whether or not to have a relationship with her. Like it's a one sided thing and they are ENTITLED to a "test drive." Lots of guys on here chimed in to agree with that.

 

I have never even heard of that in real life. Sure people have sex with each other like after drinking at a party and end up bonding and in a relationship but I had no clue that pre-relationship sex is now a REQUIREMENT for a lot of guys!!

 

And the way men "s*** shaming" and "fat shaming" women is somehow socially acceptable. And how women are derided for being "shallow" for choosing to date guys they are attracted to rather than give any guy a chance because the guy considers himself to be "nice." Sheesh.

 

Guys, I understand that you have your own complaints about women (in general) and I am not minimizing them, just talking about some of the ones that stand out about guys, to me. Luckily mostly just on LoveShack and elsewhere on the Internet. I have a guy who is as horrified as I am by that kind of thing. And other men in my life like friends, brother, dad who would NEVER.

 

I am just very grateful that I don't need to be trying to date in this climate. My heart goes out to the sincere guys and girls that are braving it.

 

One of the things I've enjoyed most from this site is finding a place to span the gender divide and HAVE these kinds of discussions. As a man, it's incredibly informative to hear how woman move through the world and their perspective on things.

 

I find it sad we've reached the point where the genders are so hostile to one another, considering how strongly we all appear to want to *be together*.

[Arieswoman]

Omei,

Please take my comments in the spirit with which they were meant, as I am trying to be helpful here;

 

 

Ever heard the old adage about the definition of "stupidity"? It's doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

 

 

First I think you should "take yourself off the market" temporarily.

 

 

May I suggest you do some work on yourself? Find out why you put up with abusive relationships for so long. Find out what it is you really want for yourself. Is it healthy? If not, modify your viewpoint.

 

 

I would suggest you buy and read this book ; "It's just a date!" by Greg Behrendt & Amiira Ruotola-Behrendt.

 

 

HTH

[insert_name]

Wow what, how is that shaming? I don't get it.

 

We used to have a dude on here everyday crying cause he couldn't pull a big breasted hottie 10 years younger than him. Everyone told him, he was shooting out of his league.

 

Yeah it is different for guys round here, they are told to be realistic whereas women get fist pumps and shouts of 'you go grrrrl, don't ever settle!' which is probably a reflection on men being the pursuer. Women can afford to wait and see what turns up whilst men can change their outcomes quicker by pursuing less 'in demand' women.

[anduina]

Omei, we're close in age since I'm 28. Took a chance with a guy from Europe who hit me up on an online dating site out of the blue. It started out incredible but then we hit a little rough patch because he feared committing to a relationship at such a great distance but he didn't want to lose me so he committed to a relationship and it's been back to incredible since. He's sweet, romantic, kind, loving and smart. He's also a gentleman.

 

When I was over there, I met his friends and family. They're nice people too and so normal. He's come here and met my family and friends and they get along great too. It helps that he's quadrilingual and very familiar with North American culture since he's spent summers with family who live here.

 

So if you're willing to take a chance and go further to find the right guy, they're out there. Hopefully you won't have to go as far as I did. Maybe someone in the next city, province or even across the border.

[Buddhist]

This is one of the bigger takeaways I have from my fake profiles. There are just a flood of women on these OLD sites that are in the 4-7 categorie lookswise, nothing particularly spectacular in intelligence or personality who will chase down these 9/10 guys. They are on these sites for years on end and their Profiles all, to a woman, complain about timewasters, men after sex, etc. Yet they are prostrating themselves to the few men on the site who have literally hundreds of options. OF COURSE these guys are just using them for sex, I mean on what planet are these women stupid enough to believe a really hot, very professionally succesful guy is going to be the guy who grows old with them? I don't mean to be harsh but this situation means the 80% of the male population on these sites are trying to somehow meet the 7 or 8 women who will actually talk to them. It's just impossible.

 

And there are a flood of 4-7 category men who do exactly the same thing. It's not a gender thing, it's a delusional person thing of which OLD seems to have the monopoly.

[AverageJoe1986]

And there are a flood of 4-7 category men who do exactly the same thing. It's not a gender thing, it's a delusional person thing of which OLD seems to have the monopoly.

 

Well I'm sure that's true for a short while but the reality of getting no responses will very quickly adjust their sights. I'm sure they still message the hot women but I bet they don't ignore the average looking women like they ignore the average looking men. Because the hit men try to use the average women for a quick hook up they have the idea that the next hot guy round the corner will be their soulmate.

[Wewon]

I have never even heard of that in real life. Sure people have sex with each other like after drinking at a party and end up bonding and in a relationship but I had no clue that pre-relationship sex is now a REQUIREMENT for a lot of guys!!

 

And the way men "s*** shaming" and "fat shaming" women is somehow socially acceptable. And how women are derided for being "shallow" for choosing to date guys they are attracted to rather than give any guy a chance because the guy considers himself to be "nice." Sheesh.

 

 

 

I personally want to see women express their perspective of dating, both good and bad. And I don't think that I'm alone on this, this is a good opportunity to get insight and perspectives that one wouldn't get otherwise in a consolidated place.

 

Some of the brussling that women see is from the inconsistencies. When I first came to LS there was a thread that asked women what they bring to the table. At first I thought it sounded hostile in nature, then I started seeing what may have prompted it. Most women are pretty unapologetic when it comes to expressing an expectation in men, from expecting him to approach, plan, pay, style of dress, his conversation style even to whether he be circumcised or not. And these are strong, uncompromising opinions with no room for error. But let a guy express ANY preference in women and he will be hit with the buzzword of the day, lately its been 'entitled'. The fact is, there seems to be something offensive about a man that expects anything from a SO other than she doesn't come at him with a chainsaw.

 

In the case of this thread, there seems to be an annoyance when any questions her part in her past relationships and the men that she chose. That falls under 'victim blaming'. So instead of examining how women may have contributed to the current nature of dating the preferred approach is to sit on a park bench and ponder the perfection of the good old days. And even then, we're not supposed to look at how both genders are feeding off each other and changing things (current sexual morays for example) The only acceptable answer is to ponder men in a vacuum.

 

So what you're left with is two groups. One that can't be scrutinized at all and the other than gets scrutinized situationally. Its particularly odd when you see two live threads with the same people in it contradicting themselves. (I kid you not) One thread had a guy being berated for being skeptical on starting a relationship as friends first, because his intentions may have been impure followed by a second thread where a guy was berated for trying to start a relationship as friends first, again, because his intentions were impure.

 

I don't think that men are annoyed with what women expect, but more that women don't want to see the part that they play in things, much like what is seen in the OP.

[PrettyEmily77]

I don't know about the bitterness part because I like men far too much to ever be bitter towards them and I also know enough decent guys (and handsome, and emotionally stable, and with good character) to know that, IME anyway, they seem to be in the majority. Heck, there are even a few here, on that very board !

 

I don't want to invalidate your experience though, Omei - there are also a few sleazebags around for sure, but I personally find them very easy to spot and avoid - hasn't always been the case and I had to work extra hard on my guy-picker plus took valuable advice from my brother and male friends.

 

From my observations, the decent single guys I know seem to be happy with their lot (no particular hang-ups) and don't actively date (ie they don't jump on any woman coming their way or whatever the equivalent is on OLD).

 

I don't really have any valuable advice aside from exercising patience and havinh the tools to recognise and reel in a good guy when you see one - I know it won't work for everyone, but I solved the issue for myself by initating most of the dates / relationships I've been on - players and guys doing the number game aren't my thing and I found it much easier to weed out unwanted interest by taking control of the situation. It's surprisingly easy, guys generally respond well to it (whether actually interested or not, especially those who have a healthy ego) and you are in charge of pace, especially when it comes to sexual stuff.

Edited February 8, 2016 by PrettyEmily77