Feminism in dating (Updated)

[Rejected Rosebud]

Lets say you make 100+K and have a good job...But its a salaried position and some weeks you will be putting in 60 Hrs...

 

You meet a guy and he's everything you can want in a man...He runs the street sweeper machine for the local town...Makes 45K and gets home by 4PM..

 

Does that work for you?

 

TFY

If he really is everything I want in a man, of course it works for ME. Some women who are high earners want to be mated with a guy who places the same emphasis on his career & getting the big bucks as she does - some men care about that as well. Personally I don't care, but I don't think it has anything to do with being a feminist or not.

[thefooloftheyear]

That would totally work for me if he had other passions in life - which he would if he was "everything I can want in a man." Say, he loved playing music or doing animal rescue or had some other thing he felt was a passion or mission, and his job was just a job to help him survive. I can respect that. I appreciate someone who has meaning in their life. Money is just a tool to me, it doesn't have meaning in itself. I've sure been with guys who made less than 45k.

 

That's great!

 

I mean, I am a typical Type A...Ive always been an over achiever and making money was always the least of my problems in life...For a lot of regular guys though, this is all they want to hear.

 

They want to know that with this "new" way of life, that maybe its not always that they need to be the master of everything and the one that has to be counted on...

 

They don't want to go into a relationship with a woman that makes more than they do or has a better job or career and get belittled..And TBH, of the women that I know in these types of arrangements...I see more of the women rolling eyes and shaming their husbands(maybe they don't do it to their face, but I have heard it more than enough times to call it a trend), for not being as ambitious or driven or bringing enough $$ into the house..

 

So as far as feminism is concerned, it just seems like they want all the trappings with regard to compensation and upward mobility, and that's great, I wouldn't argue against that...But at the same time they want the "traditional" Type A, provider and high earner type and marginalize the regular Joe..I understand this, as on a more primal level, that type of guy is usually going to be more appealing,to a woman, however maybe I don't really see this as in the true spirit of the cause.. I dunno...

 

TFY

[thefooloftheyear]

If he really is everything I want in a man, of course it works for ME. Some women who are high earners want to be mated with a guy who places the same emphasis on his career & getting the big bucks as she does - almost no men care about that as well. Personally I don't care, but I don't think it has anything to do with being a feminist or not.

 

I corrected your post....for the sake of accuracy..

 

TFY

[Rejected Rosebud]

But at the same time they want the "traditional" Type A, provider and high earner type and marginalize the regular Joe..

TFY

The "regular Joe" can be just as much of a provider type of guy as a rich man. Just not as fancy.

[thefooloftheyear]

The "regular Joe" can be just as much of a provider type of guy as a rich man. Just not as fancy.

 

Tell your girlfriends that and see what they tell you....I'd love to hear the responses..

 

TFY

[lollipopspot]

That's great!

 

I mean, I am a typical Type A...Ive always been an over achiever and making money was always the least of my problems in life...For a lot of regular guys though, this is all they want to hear.

 

They want to know that with this "new" way of life, that maybe its not always that they need to be the master of everything and the one that has to be counted on...

 

They don't want to go into a relationship with a woman that makes more than they do or has a better job or career and get belittled..And TBH, of the women that I know in these types of arrangements...I see more of the women rolling eyes and shaming their husbands(maybe they don't do it to their face, but I have heard it more than enough times to call it a trend), for not being as ambitious or driven or bringing enough $$ into the house..

 

So as far as feminism is concerned, it just seems like they want all the trappings with regard to compensation and upward mobility, and that's great, I wouldn't argue against that...But at the same time they want the "traditional" Type A, provider and high earner type and marginalize the regular Joe..I understand this, as on a more primal level, that type of guy is usually going to be more appealing,to a woman, however maybe I don't really see this as in the true spirit of the cause.. I dunno...

 

TFY

 

Thank you. I can't quite relate to this as a topic about feminism though - except that to me it would be feminist to relinquish the expectation that in order to "be a man" that that guy needs to be a high earner or be a slave to his job or something. Feminism should free men from those old gender roles. (Although individuals might have certain lifestyle and partner preferences that are not necessarily about gendered expectations per se). It makes me think that the women you describe 1) have materialistic values (which I don't think is either feminist or non feminist), and 2) are "type A's" themselves, and they put part of their type A energy into pushing their guy to earn a lot of money. I'm not either one of those things, and I don't relate to them as being feminist per se. Only to the degree that they think a man should do those things just because he's a man, rather than that those qualities are her preference in a partner.

 

To explain more - I think men should be able to cry or be scared or not like doing "manly" things or whatever without being accused of being any less of a man. My personal preference for a partner though is specific to me - I mean, I wouldn't want to be with a super emotional man because I'm not a super emotive person myself and I don't like a lot of drama - but I don't think a man should be called less "manly" (because after all, he is a man) for expressing his whole range of human emotions or expressing who he is. If that makes sense (i.e. gender as a construct).

[SerenityNoww]

That would totally work for me if he had other passions in life - which he would if he was "everything I can want in a man." Say, he loved playing music or doing animal rescue or had some other thing he felt was a passion or mission, and his job was just a job to help him survive. I can respect that. I appreciate someone who has meaning in their life. Money is just a tool to me, it doesn't have meaning in itself. I've sure been with guys who made less than 45k.

 

Most women will of course give the proper PC type answer like that. I'm not saying you arent being honest, but we all know that very few women (even though they are anonymous on here) would never admit publicly that the street sweeper is below them.

 

Its the same as when you hear those stories like the one where the basketball coach took a supermodel to Taco Bell as a first date....and women react with the big "Awwwww that so cute" lines. It sounds romantic the way the media packages it and sells it, but in all reality, we know how most women would react. They'd either laugh in the guys face or go along with it and then never talk to him again.

[lollipopspot]

Most women will of course give the proper PC type answer like that. I'm not saying you arent being honest, but we all know that very few women (even though they are anonymous on here) would never admit publicly that the street sweeper is below them.

 

Its the same as when you hear those stories like the one where the basketball coach took a supermodel to Taco Bell as a first date....and women react with the big "Awwwww that so cute" lines. It sounds romantic the way the media packages it and sells it, but in all reality, we know how most women would react. They'd either laugh in the guys face or go along with it and then never talk to him again.

 

Well, at this point in my life I'd have an aesthetic and values preference about being taken to a Taco Bell - for a couple reasons (primarily, I don't eat animals), I'm not fond of most fast food restaurants. But you don't have to spend any more money to have a more creative or classy date. I have gone on dates where we went for a walk in a nature area - no money at all spent. Someone might be easygoing about money but that doesn't mean that just anything goes. You still have to have other values in common. Someone doesn't have to spend much if any money on a birthday gift for me, but they ought still to try to make me feel special by writing me a letter or making a meal or something. Think about it - there are a lot of guys who don't have much money, and they're not all single.

 

I'll bet most street sweepers have had or currently have romantic relationships. Are they with supermodels? No, but most guys aren't. But I'm not dating (name of some popular handsome actor) either.

[MoreAmore]

There are some modern feminists who get very angry when men call themselves feminists. If you don't believe me look it up.

 

I've only seen it when the men call themselves feminists then use it as an excuse to talk over women as they know the truth.

 

You can see men claiming that they are saying the real equality all over.

 

I only date feminists.

[RedRobin]

Right. ..how or what tools i can use to move my winter/summer tires on rims to or from basement to my car?

 

 

Appliance dolly or hand truck.

 

 

I moved a 1960's refrigerator to the curb all by myself with one. I wasn't dating anyone at the time. I had male friends who could have helped me. One of them threw out his back (guess he should have used a tool!!) and the other, TBH, wasn't as strong as me.

 

 

If it truly takes talent... hire someone. I would never, EVER move a piano, for instance. And I would never EVER allow my boyfriend/husband to move one either. That's a special skill that will get you seriously injured or killed if you don't do it right.

 

 

.... It's funny, this whole discussion about 'feminists'. The guys who are latching onto some extreme views by a few self-professed feminists seem to have some pretty extreme views themselves.

 

 

I dunno about 'rape culture'... but I'm opposed to any idea that makes ONE gender MORE responsible for the actions of the other. Its not my job as a woman to 'police' men. It's their job to police themselves. I refuse to live my life in fear.

 

 

There does seem to be a certain segment of men who still believe that women are here for their convenience, sexually. There are lots of TV shows and movies that never stop with the violence... against both men and women. I have a hard time with violence of any kind.

Edited December 15, 2015 by RedRobin

[CrystalCastles]

Ok fair enough....but please try to answer this question honestly...

 

Lets say you make 100+K and have a good job...But its a salaried position and some weeks you will be putting in 60 Hrs...

 

You meet a guy and he's everything you can want in a man...He runs the street sweeper machine for the local town...Makes 45K and gets home by 4PM..

 

Does that work for you?

 

TFY

 

I don't know what circumstance would bring me to meet a city sweeper. But sure, supposing I met one.

 

That depends, quite frankly, is the most honest answer I can give you. If he is literally prince charming and everything I've ever dreamed of besides the low wage, then I would have to date him and see where that went. A job isn't the only thing that's important to me. We need to share the same outlook on life too. I want to be married, I want to have kids at some point. If a rich billionaire came to me and didn't want those things, then his salary wouldn't matter because I'm not willing to compromise. I want a man who leads a healthy lifestyle, who is fit, physically attractive to me, has hobbies and friends, treats me well and with kindness. And of course there needs to be love and chemistry.

 

Maybe there's a reason why he's a city sweeper. Maybe he needs time to figure out what he wants to do in life. Maybe he is working this minimum wage job while going to school. Maybe he's an immigrant and this is the best he could get. I feel like there are too many factors I would have to consider so I can't give you a black and white answer. But if he was everything I wanted, I would at least still give him a chance.

 

My only concern is that a guy who makes less than me isn't going to use me for my money. My career will make me 100+K. I don't want someone who will get their grubby hands on my money and take every cent.

Edited December 15, 2015 by CrystalCastles

[Rejected Rosebud]

I corrected your post....for the sake of accuracy..

 

TFY

Please don't do that. Plenty of men care about the income of the women they date. This thread is full of men who are beside themselves with butthurt about not only perhaps being expected to pay for a date, but being expected to give a woman "a free ride" for the rest of her life because she had a baby at one point.

 

The only responsible thing would be for these guys TO care about the earning potential of their potential partners. I'm not being facetious, they really should care since it means a great deal to them.

 

I know many PROFESSIONAL COUPLES. Including my parents. They are together because they have a lot in common, among those things are the way they approach their work and finances.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Tell your girlfriends that and see what they tell you....I'd love to hear the responses..

 

TFY

What are you talking about? A guy who is working on a house for my friend - he is a carpenter - he is one of the greatest family men I know. He takes wonderful care of his family and his wife is at home raising their baby twins right now. He is a regular Joe - blue collar, hard working, GREAT PROVIDER. And then there's my brother in law the organic salad farmer! He rocks!! We love guys like that - my fiancee admires them too. This isn't unusual. Where on Earth do you live where this is a bizarre notion to you??

[Rejected Rosebud]

Most women will of course give the proper PC type answer like that. I'm not saying you arent being honest, but we all know that very few women (even though they are anonymous on here) would never admit publicly that the street sweeper is below them.

 

I don't agree that "we all know" that. Yes there are women who think that guy would be below them because of his job.

 

The FOOL poster said, though, that he was "everything she wanted in a man." Evidently that does not include high career aspirations, or else he would not have been everything she wanted.

 

Not only women, but men as well are often drawn to others who have similar feelings about work and career as they do. It's like a socio-economic level of compatibility. It doesn't mean that a woman necessarily thinks the street sweeper is "beneath" her. (though she might). It could be a basic incompatibility.

 

Many guys with exciting careers and good earning potential would not feel that a maid at Motel 6, no matter how hot, would be a good choice of mate, as well. Some of them would think she was beneath them, but others would just be more captivated by women who had a similar kind of drive to what they had.

[loveflower]

What are you talking about? A guy who is working on a house for my friend - he is a carpenter - he is one of the greatest family men I know. He takes wonderful care of his family and his wife is at home raising their baby twins right now. He is a regular Joe - blue collar, hard working, GREAT PROVIDER. And then there's my brother in law the organic salad farmer! He rocks!! We love guys like that - my fiancee admires them too. This isn't unusual. Where on Earth do you live where this is a bizarre notion to you??

 

yup...great provider means the guy gives you 8 dollar when he has 10. not the guy who gives you 20 when he has 2000.

[Shining One]

The only responsible thing would be for these guys TO care about the earning potential of their potential partners. I'm not being facetious, they really should care since it means a great deal to them.

I care less about earning potential and more about her mindset towards equality and fairness. A woman making $200K who expects me to pay for all of our dates is less compatible with me than a woman making $50K who believes in equality/fairness and contributes her half.

[loveflower]

Appliance dolly or hand truck.

 

.

 

seriously? use dolly to move tires down the narrow stair? that's more of a hassle than help. It's easier and much much faster to use my hands albeit kind of heavy.

[loveflower]

I care less about earning potential and more about her mindset towards equality and fairness. A woman making $200K who expects me to pay for all of our dates is less compatible with me than a woman making $50K who believes in equality/fairness and contributes her half.

 

men who expect women to do the same things are just not that manly to me anyway.

[SerenityNoww]

Plenty of men care about the income of the women they date.

 

You are correct.

 

But theres way more women that care about it than men. Thats the reality of the situation.

[RedRobin]

You are correct.

 

But theres way more women that care about it than men. Thats the reality of the situation.

 

 

... just like there are plenty of unattractive men who want a 'supermodel'... and promiscuous men who want a woman who isn't promiscuous.

 

 

I don't think its right, and I don't date men with double standards... but I agree... Society has told lots of women it's not only OK, but it is admirable to look for guys who offer something they themselves can't offer in return.

 

 

If you don't like it, then do what I do when I come across a man with double standards...

 

 

1) I don't date them.

2) I don't let them enter my social circle or pool of acquaintances.

3) I won't passively or actively help them date anyone else.

 

 

For what it's worth, none of my female friends have those kinds of double standards.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I care less about earning potential and more about her mindset towards equality and fairness. A woman making $200K who expects me to pay for all of our dates is less compatible with me than a woman making $50K who believes in equality/fairness and contributes her half.

So if you were to have a relationship with a woman and she earned 40,000 a year, and you earned 200,000 a year, would you still make her pay "her half" of your life together?

 

Look, like I said before, there are women who would NEVER accept a cup of coffee, much less a dinner or a gift from any man, ever, or allow one to put air in her tires. One is posting in this thread. They may be hard to find, but you CAN find them since it seems to be of utmost importance to you!

 

For better or worse, it remains part of our culture that men traditionally express their interest in women by generosity and "grand gestures." That's why diamond engagement rings even exist - I think it's stupid, I am engaged and do not have an engagement ring. But when my fiancee wants to give me a gift or do something nice for me that I don't prefer to do for myself, I don't refuse or indignantly throw it back in his face. That would be ungracious of me, and he would hate it - as would I if the tables were turned.

 

It's not all about gender, it's about the way different people show that they love and care. If they learned it by observing their father or mother, that is not necessarily a reason to abandon it if it works well for them. GOOD relationships are very reciprocal even if it might not appear that way to the outside observer.

 

Anyway, people who want things outside the "norm" like absolute 50/50 finances under all circumstances are more unusual, but like attracts like. I do hope you both make a lot of money so you can hire a staff if you decide to have children, though - otherwise one of you will have to stop earning and start parenting and how would they pay their half? And if your wife has to take a couple of weeks off work just to squeeze the baby out and get back on her feet, will she be required to make financial restitution to you?

[Rejected Rosebud]

I don't think its right, and I don't date men with double standards... but I agree... Society has told lots of women it's not only OK, but it is admirable to look for guys who offer something they themselves can't offer in return.

I dislike double standards, but I don't agree with you that both members of a couple need to offer each other the identical things. For me it's more harmonious if our strengths are complementary rather than identical. I am pretty extreme, I don't need more of me, I need balance. I respect that you want someone who does 50% of the same things you do, I see that could be a good partnership, but it's not necessarily bad, sexist, or a double standard when people choose to fill in the weaker spots for one another.

[SwordofFlame]

So if you were to have a relationship with a woman and she earned 40,000 a year, and you earned 200,000 a year, would you still make her pay "her half" of your life together?

 

Look, like I said before, there are women who would NEVER accept a cup of coffee, much less a dinner or a gift from any man, ever, or allow one to put air in her tires. One is posting in this thread. They may be hard to find, but you CAN find them since it seems to be of utmost importance to you!

 

For better or worse, it remains part of our culture that men traditionally express their interest in women by generosity and "grand gestures." That's why diamond engagement rings even exist - I think it's stupid, I am engaged and do not have an engagement ring. But when my fiancee wants to give me a gift or do something nice for me that I don't prefer to do for myself, I don't refuse or indignantly throw it back in his face. That would be ungracious of me, and he would hate it - as would I if the tables were turned.

 

It's not all about gender, it's about the way different people show that they love and care. If they learned it by observing their father or mother, that is not necessarily a reason to abandon it if it works well for them. GOOD relationships are very reciprocal even if it might not appear that way to the outside observer.

 

Anyway, people who want things outside the "norm" like absolute 50/50 finances under all circumstances are more unusual, but like attracts like. I do hope you both make a lot of money so you can hire a staff if you decide to have children, though - otherwise one of you will have to stop earning and start parenting and how would they pay their half? And if your wife has to take a couple of weeks off work just to squeeze the baby out and get back on her feet, will she be required to make financial restitution to you?

 

I don't think he's saying she needs to contribute equally financially, but in other ways.

[Shining One]

So if you were to have a relationship with a woman and she earned 40,000 a year, and you earned 200,000 a year, would you still make her pay "her half" of your life together?

I would not "make" her do anything. She would choose to contribute in whatever ways she can. It's the mindset I'm looking for, not the specific dollar amount. I was specifically addressing your point about men caring about earning potential.

Look, like I said before, there are women who would NEVER accept a cup of coffee, much less a dinner or a gift from any man, ever, or allow one to put air in her tires. One is posting in this thread. They may be hard to find, but you CAN find them since it seems to be of utmost importance to you!

Again, it's not about refusing generosity. It's about reciprocating.

Anyway, people who want things outside the "norm" like absolute 50/50 finances under all circumstances are more unusual, but like attracts like. I do hope you both make a lot of money so you can hire a staff if you decide to have children, though - otherwise one of you will have to stop earning and start parenting and how would they pay their half? And if your wife has to take a couple of weeks off work just to squeeze the baby out and get back on her feet, will she be required to make financial restitution to you?

I had a vasectomy, so there won't be any children from my relationships.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Again, it's not about refusing generosity. It's about reciprocating.

 

OK. I get you. I just have a problem with how you and some others on this thread look at this as a "woman" and a "feminism" problem. Of course there are some women who think they need to be treated like princesses, if I were a guy I would run away from them. I would NOT choose to be in a relationship that was not reciprocal, why would ANYBODY?? I guess the point I keep trying to make to YOU personally is that if you want to be in a reciprocal relationship, you should be and you can be. ALL the good ones are. I guarantee you that if you ask my guy whether I "contribute" he would not even believe you asked. But if you look at women like we're enemies who are trying to get your stuff and harm you ... you are kind of setting yourself up to fail.

 

I'm pretty sure there are about as many men failing to pull their weight in relationships as there are women.