"If a guy is interested....he WILL pursue..."

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

You're obviously mixing me up with another poster.....I have never stated anything of the sort.

 

I have been initiating convos with men (and women) .... ever since I can remember, in fact I met my first two boyfriends by speaking to them first, and with my first, I was the one who suggested we go for a drink!

 

Do I *chase* men? No. Nor do I think men should *chase* women.

 

I admit I do prefer a man to initiate the first few dates, but after that we pursue "each other". Equal give and take. But I have absolutely no problem with talking to him first.

 

I suggest you my read my posts (and try to understand what you're reading) before tossing out baseless accusations.

 

Thanks a bunch!

So yes you have made the first move before with success

[Shining One]

I often complete a bit of due diligence before I decide to pursue. If I meet a group of women, I'll gauge interest levels before I decide to approach one of them. If I choose poorly (ask out one of them who has a boyfriend), I'm essentially rejected by the entire group. In this respect, there is less risk for a woman to approach. I know that if I reject a woman, my male friends won't also reject her simply on the basis that she approached me first and not them.

[seekingluck]

Thats why I will never understand approaching a woman that is a complete stranger. I am attracted to personalities. So why would I base my approach on visual appearance alone?

 

And women constantly gripe about wanting a guy to like them for who they are, not for their body. So the cold approach totally contradicts that. Yet some women are flattered that a guy finds them attractive enough to "pick" them out of the blue, so that is a contradiction as well.

 

All I see is games, bs, and contradictions when it comes to pursuing and trying to date women. It seems most of society just conforms, and goes with the flow, even if they are aware of it how screwed up the whole thing is.

 

Most of the men who approached me cold gave me a compliment on my smile. A perfectly acceptable ice breaker.

 

And we should talk a few minutes before you ask me out!

[katiegrl]

So yes you have made the first move before with success

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "first move," I never thought in terms like that.

 

 

Like I said previously, I simply enjoy meeting people and striking up convos when the situation presents itself, naturally.

 

 

If that convo resulted in a guy asking me out (or even ME asking HIM to join me for coffee) then fabulous, but that was NOT my reason for initiating the convo.

[katiegrl]

I often complete a bit of due diligence before I decide to pursue. If I meet a group of women, I'll gauge interest levels before I decide to approach one of them. If I choose poorly (ask out one of them who has a boyfriend), I'm essentially rejected by the entire group. In this respect, there is less risk for a woman to approach. I know that if I reject a woman, my male friends won't also reject her simply on the basis that she approached me first and not them.

 

Wondering, if you were at a bar, for example, why not sort of mosey on over to where a particular girl (and her friends) are hanging out, stand next to her and then naturally start up a convo?

 

Why does it have to be this sort of contrived "approach" wherein you do your due diligence and then strategize your approach... thus risking the rejection? If you make it appear like the convo was spontaneous, not something you planned out beforehand, then it comes off much more naturally... making it easier for a connection to occur.... rather than a contrived plan on your part to get a date/get laid or whatever your plan was.

 

And if you're clicking ask her out. If not, don't.

 

Just a thought.

Edited November 12, 2015 by katiegrl

[Male]

Wondering, if you were at a bar, for example, why not sort of mosey on over to where a particular girl (and her friends) are hanging out, stand next to her and then naturally start up a convo?

 

Why does it have to be this sort of contrived "approach" wherein you do your due diligence and then strategize your approach... thus risking the rejection? If you make it appear like the convo was spontaneous, not something you planned out beforehand, then it comes off much more naturally... making it easier for a connection to occur.... rather than a contrived plan on your part to get a date/get laid or whatever your plan was.

 

And if you're clicking ask her out. If not, don't.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

Its always so easy for women to instruct guys on how to approach them. I chuckle at this often.

 

So now you are instructing men to play a game, and "act" like you arent just talking to her to eventually get a date, even though thats exactly what the guy would be doing.

 

I dont understand why different women always give the same advice and tell guys to basically use "slight of hand" to trick a woman into conversation, and get her to talk to you, but make sure you dont let her know you are interested in dating her.

 

WHY do we always have to pretend we arent interested in someone????

 

WHY is it a turn off if we actually admit that we are interested in said person????

 

Its nothing but games game and more games. No wonder nobody wants anything to do with me.

[basil67]

Reading through all these posts, I'm feeling like an ancient women's lib advocate. All these women who are either too frightened to approach a man or too caught up in following ancient patriarchal teachings. It's appalling.

 

I do despair of my own sex at times.

[Shining One]

Wondering, if you were at a bar, for example, why not sort of mosey on over to where a particular girl (and her friends) are hanging out, stand next to her and then naturally start up a convo?

I have done this plenty of times. After striking out a lot, I've learned that due diligence is important for my success. I've gone up to women, talked to them, danced with them, and then asked them out. It's at this point she reveals she only dates White/Hispanic men. Now that I've asked her out, her friend sitting next to her, who is open to dating Indian men, won't give me a chance.

Why does it have to be this sort of contrived "approach" wherein you do your due diligence and then strategize your approach... thus risking the rejection? If you make it appear like the convo was spontaneous, not something you planned out beforehand, then it comes off much more naturally... making it easier for a connection to occur.... rather than a contrived plan on your part to get a date/get laid or whatever your plan was.

I don't strategize my approach. I complete my due diligence to determine who I'm most likely to succeed with and then converse with her. If one of them is giving me strong signals, I'll just skip the due diligence and talk to her.

And if you're clicking ask her out. If not, don't.

 

Just a thought.

Clicking does not guarantee a date. I have plenty of women in my life that I click with who have no interest in dating me. I'm going dancing with one of them on Friday.

[Mystique01]

Wow! Looks like I've missed a lot on this thread!

 

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it is the people who are different in their approach to dating...not the gender. I think all of my kids are very healthy in their dating lives and have enjoyed some really important relationship milestones. In fact I have a son in law now that I like very much...they were mutual participants in their courtship and marriage. They are very modern and I'm very proud of their compassion and devotion to each other and my grand baby.

 

You do what makes you happy. It doesn't matter the style or the attempts but the openness to receiving when someone asks or accepts when you both are interested in each other.

Best,

Grumps

 

Thank you for sharing the stories about your children and their dating habits. I think you might have a point there. Many times it really does depend on the individuals personality and what they personally feel comfortable doing. Personally, I'm more reserved naturally, so I'm probably not going to be extremely obvious in my interest with a guy unless I'm getting the impression that he's at the very least attracted to me or enjoys being around me. I'm ALWAYS friendly and engaging with all guys however (whether romantically interested or not),so never cold or men.

 

I will say this however, I have gone out of my way in asking a guy for his number, calling and texting him first, inviting him out on dates, the whole nine. What I found was that although he liked the attention, he treated me like an option.....even played games with me...while he went and actually made an EFFORT and pursued the woman he really WAS interested in. That's why I say that for ME personally, I just find that it's better if the guy at least gives some type of sign that he's interested. He doesn't have to make all the moves, but I'm not going to start showing interest in a guy who acts like he doesn't even know I exist. Or, he gives me hot and cold signs when I try to say hello or strike up a conversation.

 

 

 

Then I'm going to tell you what women tell struggling men.

 

The common factor here is you. Is your life in order? Are you overweight? Are you healthy? Do you have baggage? Are you shooting for men out of your league? Does your approach need some changing up to be more effective?

 

I have personally been approached by women before. And they all succeeded in at least getting one date with me (most evolved into dating and/or a relationship).

 

There has to be a reason why they are succeeding and you are not. Any ideas why?

In answer to your questions, I feel like my life is in pretty good shape, I'm definitely not overweight--quite slender actually, I don't have any baggage, and I don't think I'm shooting for men outside my league! In fact, I don't usually go for the pretty boys because sometimes I get the impression that they may be a little more superficial. Most of the guys I've liked were pretty average in looks, but personality-wise they had what I was looking for. I only liked one pretty boy and he was actually nice. Seemed interested, but turns out he liked my friend instead more. Again, pursuing him did NOT work. He went after the girl HE liked. They are now married today.

 

 

 

How are women any different? They want men to approach that they are attracted to as well.

That may be true, but woven are different in that the qualities that WE as women like in a man are typically things that would take a little longer time to see (ie. How he treats others, what he does for a living, how he treats me as a woman, what his hopes and dreams are, his goals, etc),and therefore we're more likely to give a man a chance to get to know him even if the mind blowing physical attraction wasn't there from the get go.

 

Whereas men tend to go mainly for the physical, so no matter how nice and together a woman is, most men won't date a woman simply because she's "nice". He has to also feel attraction from the get go. So that is readily and easily seen, so that's why it's NOT the same for men and women. True, women may want a guy she's attracted to to approach her , but she will also give a guy a chance if he's nice, treats her with respect, seems genuinely interested in her, etc.

 

Men and women are just wired differently.

 

 

I agree, but...isn't it the same for women? No one likes unwanted attention.

Well yes and no. Like I mentioned above, women are more apt to take OTHER things into consideration other than looks when deciding whether they like a guy or not. That's why you will sometimes see a really young woman with a rich older man.

 

For men, usually when they say they don't mind a woman pursuingthem, they usually mean a woman who they like already or find attractive. Whereas for women, just the very ACT of a man pursuing or approaching automatically makes that man more attractive.

 

Even if there's no interest on her end, he would be more attractive to her than a guy who's too afraid to even come up and say hello to her.

 

 

 

There have been several female friends & colleagues of mine that have grown on me who initially I didn't find particularly physically attractive. I couldn't class them all as serious relationship material though but nonetheless the attraction to them did grow. So it can happen.

Hmmmmmm...really?

 

That's very rare. Thanks for sharing that experience! Was there anything that made your attraction to these women grow? Did they change their looks? Do something different?

 

 

 

All I see is games, bs, and contradictions when it comes to pursuing and trying to date women. It seems most of society just conforms, and goes with the flow, even if they are aware of it how screwed up the whole thing is.

I'm sorry it seems like you've had some really rough experiences with women in the past. But believe me, not all women are like this. I know for one thing I'm sure not like this.

 

Idk where some of you men are meeting women, but I've always been raised to treat others like I would want to be treated! I've never been cold or aloof towards a man (even a stranger! ) who talked to me out of the blue! That's so immature imo. Maybe the women you're going after aren't the best type you should be focusing on.

 

Just out of curiosity, all those years in various cultures where the men went after their women,are you trying to tell me that you think ALL these women have been playing GAMES since the dawn of civilization?

 

And just what is the game exactly? If a woman is friendly, easy going, smiling, laughing at your jokes, flirty, but waits to allow YOU to take the lead to ask her out, how is that playing games? I could see if she did all this stuff and rejected you. But if she's interested and you're talking with her, she's not being aloof,etc. Why wouldn't you feel like you could ask her out? What more do you need to feel comfortable lol?

 

 

Hey it worked for me, not only was it fun chatting with someone new, but I got many dates that way ...and actually met my first two boyfriends that way!

 

My fiance approached ME first...

 

AHA!!! This basically further confirms my theory that usually couples who are married, the man made the initial move/approach/hello/request for number etc!!!

 

I'm looking for MARRIAGE. Not a ONS, not a FWB, not a casual thing, but a marital union. I think a lot of times the men made an effort in cases where the couple is married. Usually when I ask married couples how they met, 9 times out of 10 the man made the move! In some cases, the woman wasn't even interested in the guy at first!

 

Yet, the guy still asked her out.

 

The better looking the woman is, the less she wants you to talk to her, or even look at her for that matter.

 

Maybe you need to stop going after the women who are so good looking and go after women who are more humble.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mystique01

[TheBullFrog]

I really don't understand women.

 

If you chase too hard you are seen as desperate, crazy and a loser. But if you don't pursue too hard she will over analyse that you are not so interested and move on.

 

Most women hardly make the first move, or even in the beginning they hardly organise a date as its usually the mans 'responsibility'

[katiegrl]

I really don't understand women.

 

If you chase too hard you are seen as desperate, crazy and a loser. But if you don't pursue too hard she will over analyse that you are not so interested and move on.

'

 

There's a happy medium ...or should be. That being a guy asks a chick out, if she says yes, great, if she says no or *maybe* .... or cancels with no alternative, then move on.

 

And if she does get her panties in a twist because you're not *chasing* her harder, then why would you want such a woman anyway, that's effed up.

Edited November 12, 2015 by katiegrl

[No Limit]

Put some thought into this topic and at least for me the whole pursuit-ordeal isn't important; but a guy who makes it clear that he wants exclusivity, to be 'claimed' by him (without crazy-jealousy though)... rawr.

[Mystique01]

Perhaps the word "pursue" is being misconstrued in this thread.

 

When I asked my original question, what I meant by "pursue" is NOT chasing a woman down after she's running away.

 

I meant pursue as in:

-Approaching a woman

-Saying HELLO

-Striking up a conversation with a woman

-Asking a woman for her number

-Flirting with a woman

-Asking a woman on a date

-Giving a woman YOUR number

 

Basically...doing SOMETHING to let the woman know you might have an interest. Not just sitting back against the wall waiting for a woman to come to YOU in other words.

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't understand women.

 

If you chase too hard you are seen as desperate, crazy and a loser. But if you don't pursue too hard she will over analyse that you are not so interested and move on.

 

Most women hardly make the first move, or even in the beginning they hardly organise a date as its usually the mans 'responsibility'

 

No....that's where you're mistaken....

 

Just like I claim that MEN usually only want women THEY are interested in making the first move on THEM, women are the same way....

 

A man will ONLY be seen as a "loser", "creeper", "desperate" if the guy is making his interest known and the woman is NOT interested in him! Just like a man will view a woman as "Desperate" or "weird" if she comes on to him first if he's NOT attracted to her.

 

A woman isn't asking for a man to be chasing her down or "pursuing hard". All a woman wants is an introduction..... Because most men go after what they want (USUALLY), if a man is NOT making any advances towards her, doesn't even say hello, then why would a woman ASSUME that man is interested in her?? I'm talking about women who are friendly, smiling, and easy-going here. I'm not talking about the woman standing in the room crossing her arms with a scowl on her face. Why wouldn't a man feel comfortable going up to a FRIENDLY woman if he's INTERESTED???

 

I think this is where men aren't understanding how women think/operate. That's like say for example you are putting your resume in for a job, and you've been through an interview (they have seen you in other words). If the company never calls you back, do you assume that you need to continue to call them asking what their deal is? You would ASSUME that the company has your information, they have looked over your resume, they've interviewed you, and if they aren't calling you back, it's NOT because they are expecting YOU to call THEM. You would assume that if the company WANTED YOU, they would call YOU. Get it??

 

It's not game playing...it's just common sense.

[loveflower]

Its always so easy for women to instruct guys on how to approach them. I chuckle at this often.

 

So now you are instructing men to play a game, and "act" like you arent just talking to her to eventually get a date, even though thats exactly what the guy would be doing.

 

I dont understand why different women always give the same advice and tell guys to basically use "slight of hand" to trick a woman into conversation, and get her to talk to you, but make sure you dont let her know you are interested in dating her.

 

WHY do we always have to pretend we arent interested in someone????

 

WHY is it a turn off if we actually admit that we are interested in said person????

 

Its nothing but games game and more games. No wonder nobody wants anything to do with me.

 

because the minute you show interest in him, he lost interest in you? that's why?

[Male]

Put some thought into this topic and at least for me the whole pursuit-ordeal isn't important; but a guy who makes it clear that he wants exclusivity, to be 'claimed' by him (without crazy-jealousy though)... rawr.

 

 

That scenario only works because you are "imagining" in your mind a guy that is attractive to you.

 

Apply that scenario to any guy, and just because he makes it clear that he wants exclusivity, doesnt mean anything to most women unless they find him attractive.

 

The keyword when dealing with most women is "attractive".

 

If a woman finds a guy attractive, and she wants to spend time with him, he can be twice the idiot, or twice the jerk or twice the loser, or twice the anything of a guy that she doesnt find attractive and she will still want to hang out with him.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "first move," I never thought in terms like that.

 

 

Like I said previously, I simply enjoy meeting people and striking up convos when the situation presents itself, naturally.

 

 

If that convo resulted in a guy asking me out (or even ME asking HIM to join me for coffee) then fabulous, but that was NOT my reason for initiating the convo.

I meant like did you ever date a guy or have a boyfriend in which you were the one that approached him first

[Rejected Rosebud]

My guy made sure to let me know he was REALLY interested in me. We were in high school, he had a job as a bus boy and saved his money to buy a junker so he could take me out on dates. I felt special!! It helped to win me over!! :love: I don't think "guys MUST pursue" but like I always say, if you want something in this life you better go after it or you probably will miss out!!

[PrettyEmily77]

That scenario only works because you are "imagining" in your mind a guy that is attractive to you.

 

Apply that scenario to any guy, and just because he makes it clear that he wants exclusivity, doesnt mean anything to most women unless they find him attractive.

 

The keyword when dealing with most women is "attractive".

 

If a woman finds a guy attractive, and she wants to spend time with him, he can be twice the idiot, or twice the jerk or twice the loser, or twice the anything of a guy that she doesnt find attractive and she will still want to hang out with him.

 

Of course women will go for men they find attractive (to them, whatever their standards are) - we're made of flesh and blood, just like men. Out of curiosity, do you, as a man, only date women you find unattractive, then? That's the only way this reasoning can make sense...

 

What makes you think that a woman will forgo any quality a man can have and will exclusively date an attractive guy (physically, I take it?) irrespective of anything else?

[No Limit]

That scenario only works because you are "imagining" in your mind a guy that is attractive to you.

 

Apply that scenario to any guy, and just because he makes it clear that he wants exclusivity, doesnt mean anything to most women unless they find him attractive.

 

The keyword when dealing with most women is "attractive".

 

If a woman finds a guy attractive, and she wants to spend time with him, he can be twice the idiot, or twice the jerk or twice the loser, or twice the anything of a guy that she doesnt find attractive and she will still want to hang out with him.

 

Of course I need to be attracted to the guy, I'm not the desperate sort that will throw herself at anything male that passes her. But (at least my) sense for attraction isn't controlled by PUA tricks or bad boy games or abuser-manipulation or what have you.

[katiegrl]

I meant like did you ever date a guy or have a boyfriend in which you were the one that approached him first

 

Okay, I guess you mean just randomly walking up to a man (approaching a stranger out of the blue) and start chatting.

 

I have never done that, and never would even if single.

 

But I don't recommend MEN do that either .... it's awkward and uncomfortable for both and not conducive to anything productive happening, except maybe the person being approached becoming annoyed and guarded ... and the person doing that type of approaching being shot down.

 

A man (or woman) will have much better luck by simply taking advantage of opportunities to chat when presented with that opportunity. On line at the supermarket, coffee shop bar, or anyplace else where you feel comfortable striking up a ***spontaneous*** chat. With NO ulterior motive (or making it appear like you have no ulterior motive).

 

Recently, as I was leaving the market with heavy bags, a man who was walking directly behind me very casually and naturally offered to carry my bags as we were both walking in the same direction (downtown).

 

I said sure thanks! And while we were walking started chatting! Okay maybe he scoped me out prior, but the point is, he **created** a spontaneous opportunity to meet me by walking behind and offering to carry my bags as it was obvious I was struggling a bit as they were heavy!

 

OR, maybe he hadn't scoped me out at all ...and was simply being polite by offering to carry my heavy bags!

 

In any event, it was spontaneous and therefore not awkward or uncomfortable for EITHER of us!

 

If people took advantage of opportunities like that, were *open* and friendly, and receptive ....then perhaps their chances of getting dates would increase. This goes for both men and women!

 

Rather than randomly approaching strangers out of the blue ... the **obvious** goal being getting a number, a date or sex. Doing that is just too *contrived* and 9 x out of ten, will get you shot down.

 

Take advantage of .... or create spontaneous opportunities = attract more people.

 

Appearing contrived .. like you have an obvious *agenda* = attract less people - turn off.

 

JMO

Edited November 13, 2015 by katiegrl

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Okay, I guess you mean just randomly walking up to a man (approaching a stranger out of the blue) and start chatting.

 

I have never done that, and never would even if single.

 

But I don't recommend MEN do that either .... it's awkward and uncomfortable for both and not conducive to anything productive happening, except maybe the person being approached becoming annoyed and guarded ... and the person doing that type of approaching being shot down.

 

A man (or woman) will have much better luck by simply taking advantage of opportunities to chat when presented with that opportunity. On line at the supermarket, coffee shop bar, or anyplace else where you feel comfortable striking up a ***spontaneous*** chat. With NO ulterior motive (or making it appear like you have no ulterior motive).

 

Recently, as I was leaving the market with heavy bags, a man who was walking directly behind me very casually and naturally offered to carry my bags as we were both walking in the same direction (downtown).

 

I said sure thanks! And while we were walking started chatting! Okay maybe he scoped me out prior, but the point is, he **created** a spontaneous opportunity to meet me by walking behind and offering to carry my bags as it was obvious I was struggling a bit as they were heavy!

 

OR, maybe he hadn't scoped me out at all ...and was simply being polite by offering to carry my heavy bags!

 

In any event, it was spontaneous and therefore not awkward or uncomfortable for EITHER of us!

 

If people took advantage of opportunities like that, were *open* and friendly, and receptive ....then perhaps their chances of getting dates would increase. This goes for both men and women!

 

Rather than randomly approaching strangers out of the blue ... the **obvious** goal being getting a number, a date or sex. Doing that is just too *contrived* and 9 x out of ten, will get you shot down.

 

Take advantage of .... or create spontaneous opportunities = attract more people.

 

Appearing contrived .. like you have an obvious *agenda* = attract less people - turn off.

 

JMO

 

 

yup, not surprised, let me know what you think of this article:Why Don?t Women Approach Men? | The Modern Man

[Rejected Rosebud]

Apply that scenario to any guy, and just because he makes it clear that he wants exclusivity, doesnt mean anything to most women unless they find him attractive.

 

The keyword when dealing with most women is "attractive".

Of course you need to find him attractive!! I don't even get why that seems to be judged as somehow "bad" around here - that a woman needs to be attracted to a guy in order to want to be in a relationship or just have sex with him. Hello??!?! No matter what you guys say, YOU have to be attracted as well, maybe your range if what's attractive is broader in general than for most women but that is nothing to get mad about.

 

I DO understand that if no one finds you attractive that is painful but it's not wrong for women AND men to pair up with others who they're attracted to!!

[Rejected Rosebud]

yup, not surprised, let me know what you think of this article:Why Don?t Women Approach Men? | The Modern Man

I didn't read the whole thing but I get the gist, and YES, we women are generally attracted to men who we perceive as being brave, strong and protective. Maybe it's social conditioning or maybe biology or whatever, it doesn't matter, it is what it is. Most men are attracted to women who have a good figure, same thing.

 

You seem to think this is terribly unfair but fairness doesn't have anything to do with it, if you are not what women are GENERALLY attracted to you can still find women who don't care about that stuff. Very androgynous men are SUPER attractive to alot of girls, it's pretty common to go for the sensitive moody artistic temperament type as well. If that's not you there are STILL girls who like different things.

 

What I can't imagine any girl that I know liking though is a guy who feels sorry for himself most of the time, I don't think that's a good trait in a girl either

 

Do YOU value courage strength and protectiveness as positive traits? If you do but you don't have them, they are the kinds of things a person can work on if they wanted to. If you don't want to I don't blame you!!! But if girls like that stuff, it is not WRONG or UNFAIR.

[katiegrl]

yup, not surprised, let me know what you think of this article:Why Don?t Women Approach Men? | The Modern Man

 

Dude, you seem intent on knocking down everything I post ....but what you fail to comprehend is that the way I feel (about cold approaching) applies to both women AND men.

 

Why you fail to comprehend this is beyond me.

 

That said, once again, I don't believe in *either gender* cold approaching. For the same reasons.

 

Get it? If not, I suggest you read my above post again and make an effort to understand it this time.

 

Thank you.

Edited November 14, 2015 by katiegrl

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

I didn't read the whole thing but I get the gist, and YES, we women are generally attracted to men who we perceive as being brave, strong and protective. Maybe it's social conditioning or maybe biology or whatever, it doesn't matter, it is what it is. Most men are attracted to women who have a good figure, same thing.

 

You seem to think this is terribly unfair but fairness doesn't have anything to do with it, if you are not what women are GENERALLY attracted to you can still find women who don't care about that stuff. Very androgynous men are SUPER attractive to alot of girls, it's pretty common to go for the sensitive moody artistic temperament type as well. If that's not you there are STILL girls who like different things.

 

What I can't imagine any girl that I know liking though is a guy who feels sorry for himself most of the time, I don't think that's a good trait in a girl either

 

Do YOU value courage strength and protectiveness as positive traits? If you do but you don't have them, they are the kinds of things a person can work on if they wanted to. If you don't want to I don't blame you!!! But if girls like that stuff, it is not WRONG or UNFAIR.

 

I will say this, and I guarantee if, even if there was a role reversal, a girl made the first move and approached talked to me first, I know I would still be Man enough to protect her