sleep talking GF... the truth at last?

[deadelvis]

Because this...

 

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/533952-g-f-s-past

 

...is what I would like to avoid.

[deadelvis]

Lets review the material...

 

1. My girlfriend has consistently lied to my face.

2. I developed trust issues when I caught her in a number of different lies.

3. I believe she is still omitting significant portions of her life story.

4. I want to know the truth so I can trust her and have an honest relationship.

 

Now lets review your responses...

 

1. "Why are you still dwelling on this?"

2. "I hope you get over your neurosis"

3. "You are fixated on proving this woman is a sexual deviant who is lying to you."

4. "You have major issues and I hope you are seeking counseling for your insecurities"

5. "You need help for YOU and shouldn't be worrying about her at this point until you straighten yourself out."

 

But this is all the same bull**** logic I see all over loveshack. It's my fault she lies. Bull****. She is lying to me. There is no way this is my issue. She created this situation. It's her past. Choices she made. Not me. And now it's her choice to lie about it. Not mine. I will not take the blame for her dishonesty. And anyone who tries to spin this around and say it's my issue, is clearly biased. She lies to me. That's not some made up problem in my head. Every night I go to sleep next to someone who is consistently lying to my face. Here's the only comment thus far that isn't bull****.

 

"And I am sure she is hiding painful stuff, changing stories that show her up in a bad light, forgetting stuff and assuming it must have been like this or that."

 

To whom it may concern... come down off your meditating mountaintop and look at the situation. I'm in a relationship with someone who lies, omits and hides the truth. If I was ok with that... then I'd need therapy.

Edited July 29, 2015 by deadelvis

[mrldii]

OP, truthfully speaking, I have not seen a single [serious] response that says it is your fault that she lies to you;

 

what A LOT of people have said and intimated is that:

 

1. you claim to know for a fact that she has lied to you and has - and continues to - withhold information from you;

 

2. having someone be truthful and completely candid it is important to you.

 

 

Either those two things are The Truth or at least one of those is a lie. Your continued obsession over all of it, evidenced by the way you think - and speak - of little else is proof YOU are lying about at least one of those two things, meaning you two are in the same boat and BOTH of you are lying to you.

 

If the truth is she lies and withholds information from you, then - if you truly are a person to whom truth and candor are important - you have no choice but to let the relationship go.

 

 

Best of luck to you in finding - and embracing - your truth. Perhaps this is one of those times when you simply must lead by example.

[deadelvis]

OP, truthfully speaking, I have not seen a single [serious] response that says it is your fault that she lies to you;

 

what A LOT of people have said and intimated is that:

 

1. you claim to know for a fact that she has lied to you and has - and continues to - withhold information from you;

 

She has lied to me in the past. I believe she is still lying (omitting, hiding, withholding - call it what you will)

 

2. having someone be truthful and completely candid it is important to you.

 

Yes. Isn't that something most people consider important in a relationship?

 

Either those two things are The Truth or at least one of those is a lie. Your continued obsession over all of it, evidenced by the way you think - and speak - of little else is proof YOU are lying about at least one of those two things, meaning you two are in the same boat and BOTH of you are lying to you.

 

If the truth is she lies and withholds information from you, then - if you truly are a person to whom truth and candor are important - you have no choice but to let the relationship go.

 

This is what I'm so conflicted about. We have a great (perfect?) relationship aside from one important detail... it's all based on a lie.

 

Best of luck to you in finding - and embracing - your truth. Perhaps this is one of those times when you simply must lead by example.

 

Again. There is no "my truth". There is only "the truth". And I can't embrace something until it's presented to me.

[mrldii]

Again. There is no "my truth". There is only "the truth". And I can't embrace something until it's presented to me.

 

Your Truth - as presented for 4 pages (so far) in just this thread, alone...and within several others - is that you will not abide by nor tolerate liars and withholders-of-the-truth.

 

 

Your continued presence in this relationship belies that which you purport to be Your Truth...which means you, too, are lying to you about The Truth.

[deadelvis]

Hence my anguish. I care for her deeply and want a life together, but I can't see building a future based on lies. I need the truth. I can't love her the way she needs to be loved without a foundation of honesty and trust. Every day I find myself growing more distant and detached from her. I want to love her and trust her, but I don't feel like I can do that anymore. If she came clean tonight about her life and secrets, I would be ready to take this relationship to the next level and give her my love, trust and faith. But her lying has ruined my trust and now it's become a huge barrier between us, and it's eroding the foundations of our relationship.

[casey.lives]

from the moment you meet someone and forward.. that is the only information you need to gather about them. people "hide" things because, it never comes up(it takes time to get to know people.. for people to trust), or because it would only create problems where there are none and lastly.. we are all entitled to personal privacy. This personal privacy is not a threat it only serves as a little well where things go in. It sounds like you're highly suspicious and determined to feed your negativity. The past is part of who we are, it's not something to be feared and it doesn't matter unless you make it matter>>> ie an ex GF. she doesn't matter unless you make her matter ..in the now.

[deadelvis]

Yeah but we're not talking about stuff like "once I overfed my brothers goldfish and it died"...

we're talking major stuff here. Expunged criminal record, prostitution, drug addiction, etc. That stuff is not just "the past"..

[deadelvis]

I'm getting emotional just talking about this. I love her very much and want this relationship to work... But it's just not possible to be in a healthy relationship with someone you don't trust. And it's impossible to trust someone who continues to lie. This is all just really depressing and hard for me. I could handle whatever the truth is. I just can't live with this constant paranoia and wondering. Not to mention she already told me some crazy stuff and wasn't shy about telling me those "hard truths" about her past. So that means whatever she's hiding must be earth shattering.

[Haydn]

Do you think you can maintain the RS if you carry on like this?

 

Do you want to?

 

If you exit then maybe it would be better........

 

Seriously i think you are going drive yourself mad with all this.

[Mrin]

Haven't read much of this thread other than the original post and a few at the end. Just wanted to say that I once had a full fledged sleep conversation where I got into a heated argument with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg about how to get to the closest White Castle. We were both really high and in the back of a taxi driven by Horshack.

 

For the record, I've never gotten high with Ruth Bader Ginsberg much less met her. Or Horshack. Or even been to White Castle. But I have been in a taxi. So I guess there is a grain of truth in everything.

 

EDIT: The woman I was in bed with during the sleep conversation was quite amused

[deadelvis]

my main theories are...

 

1. prostitute

2. porn star

3. gave up a child for adoption

4. HIV

5. extreme sexual history (gangbangs, BDSM torture type stuff... etc.)

6. incest

7. serial cheater

 

those are the only things I can imagine her hiding. She's told me some pretty hardcore stories. Those are the only type of things I can imagine her hiding from me.

 

And of course those are the exact type of things that you should share with your current partner. Nobody cares if you made out with a boy at summer camp when you were 16, but if you got pregnant with your fathers child when you were 14 and gave the baby up for adoption... that's worth mentioning

Edited July 29, 2015 by deadelvis

[Robert Z]

Haven't read much of this thread other than the original post and a few at the end. Just wanted to say that I once had a full fledged sleep conversation where I got into a heated argument with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg about how to get to the closest White Castle. We were both really high and in the back of a taxi driven by Horshack.

 

For the record, I've never gotten high with Ruth Bader Ginsberg much less met her. Or Horshack. Or even been to White Castle. But I have been in a taxi. So I guess there is a grain of truth in everything.

 

EDIT: The woman I was in bed with during the sleep conversation was quite amused

 

Bingo! Why didn't I think of that? Sleep talking might mean absolutely nothing. In fact rarely do our dreams reflect reality. They are driven largely by random impulses from the nervous system.

[Methodical]

but if you got pregnant with your fathers child when you were 14 and gave the baby up for adoption... that's worth mentioning

 

Is this an example...or did this happen?

[deadelvis]

Is this an example...or did this happen?

 

No I'm just making an example. That's honestly the only type of thing I can imagine. Or catching AIDS, or being a long time hooker or something. I just can't imagine she's hiding "me and Billy touched each others private parts at summer camp" She's been brutally honest about most of the sexual stuff in her past. But whatever she's withholding must be massively damaging.

 

I mean... she told me stuff about her past that made me sick to my stomach, and she said it so casually it blew my mind. If she can casually talk about past hardcore sexual acts like it's no big deal, it makes me terrified to think what type of things she's afraid to tell me.

 

But I really don't have any idea. She told me about having an abortion, having sex for money, doing threesomes, going to sex parties, having 50+ sexual partners, open relationships, swinger lifestyle etc. with no hesitation... so whatever she's afraid to tell me must be really gnarly.

 

At this point I just want to know the truth so we can start moving forward and put the past behind us. I feel like her past will continue to haunt us until it's brought into the light.

 

And the old "chicken or the egg" thing keeps coming into my mind. Did she have a wild and crazy sexual history because she was struggling with mental health issues all her life? or does she struggle with mental health issues because she's withholding secrets (from me, her family, perhaps even herself) about her sexual history...?

Edited July 29, 2015 by deadelvis

[autumnnight]

I'm getting emotional just talking about this. I love her very much No you don't and want this relationship to work... But it's just not possible to be in a healthy relationship with someone you don't trust. Then break up And it's impossible to trust someone who continues to lie. You don't even know this is a factr; you're still hung up on the old stuff. This is all just really depressing and hard for me. I could handle whatever the truth is. No you can't; you already proved that. I just can't live with this constant paranoia and wondering. Not to mention she already told me some crazy stuff then stop it and wasn't shy about telling me those "hard truths" about her past. So that means whatever she's hiding must be earth shattering. Speculation and a sign that someone needs counseling

 

Responses in bold.

 

I'm out

[autumnnight]

Is this an example...or did this happen?

 

It's a ridiculous far fetched example of something that never happened. How insulting. I wish she would stumble onto all these threads....

[deadelvis]

rude comment deleted

Edited July 29, 2015 by deadelvis

[CarrieT]

Rashomon effect is easily explained by perspective and memory. Obviously a rapist and a rape victim will have greatly distorted interpretations of events. But the truth is still singular. Video footage pretty much puts Rashomon effect in the dirt. And this entire line of thinking is an excuse for taking the accountability away from our actions. Our memories or interpretation of events might be faulty, but the actual truth is still out there. A dozen people might witness the same event and remember it differently, but watching the slow motion replay leaves very little doubt about what did or did not happen.

 

But what is your point anyway? We can selectively choose to modify our past as it suits our current interests?

My point is exactly as out outlined. Our memories make "the truth" faulty!

 

Look, you want to "absolute truth" from your girlfriend but if you understand that one's perspective changes over time, you need to comprehend that what you learn from her - if you ever learn anything from her - will be clouded by her past interpretation and will therefore never be this "absolute truth" for which you seek.

 

I will offer myself as an example: I have had somewhere between 300 and 500 sexual partners. I honestly don't know the number because there was a time in my life when I would go to orgies with 30 or 40 or 50 people and don't really recollect how many I actually had sex with.

 

So let's say I start dating someone like you and you want this "absolute truth" about who I might have slept with in my past. Well, there have been times in my life when I have bumped into one of these people from that era in my life and I'll be damned if I even remembered them. You would be badgering me to tell you if I had sex with them because they obviously remembered me - why wouldn't I remember them?

 

In this case the truth is far from singular because I don't remember the person and all, they remember everything about me. Which truth is singular? Their's or mine?

 

Here is something my husband has to deal with: I know that I have a very sordid past and there is much in my past that I cannot remember. I have reason to believe there is something pretty horrific in my past that may have happened to keep me from remembering aspects of my past. I know I have been raped three times. Every now and then my husband asks me if there might have been more because I have YEARS of my life that are completely blank.

 

To you, that is tantamount to lying!

 

Actions. It's not about what you wanted to do, thought about doing or almost did. In this world a person is applauded or condemned, loved or hated... based on their actions. Don't marginalize that fact. Most people hiding behind things like the Rashoman effect are looking for a way out. An excuse. A justification for the things they regret doing. Own your behavior and you don't need to hide from the truth.

And here is what I call you out on! Because I don't regret my past or those orgies or all those people. I am not hiding from any truth other than I can't remember specifics. But someone like you would be hammering me to tell you the absolute truth about my past!

 

I'm getting emotional just talking about this. I love her very much and want this relationship to work... But it's just not possible to be in a healthy relationship with someone you don't trust. And it's impossible to trust someone who continues to lie.

You keep saying this - so I have another question.

 

How long are you going to draw this out? Do you have an end date that your GF has to give you some definitive answer before you throw in the towel?

[deadelvis]

My point is exactly as out outlined. Our memories make "the truth" faulty!

 

Look, you want to "absolute truth" from your girlfriend but if you understand that one's perspective changes over time, you need to comprehend that what you learn from her - if you ever learn anything from her - will be clouded by her past interpretation and will therefore never be this "absolute truth" for which you seek.

 

Right. Our perspective changes over time, but the facts remain the same. I may have been proud of throwing a brick through the window of my high school auditorium when I was 16, but looking back now I'm ashamed. But it doesn't change the fact that I did throw that brick. Even if I get amnesia and forget everything that happened in my life, I still threw that brick. You can't change the truth just by forgetting it.

 

I will offer myself as an example: I have had somewhere between 300 and 500 sexual partners. I honestly don't know the number because there was a time in my life when I would go to orgies with 30 or 40 or 50 people and don't really recollect how many I actually had sex with.

 

So let's say I start dating someone like you and you want this "absolute truth" about who I might have slept with in my past. Well, there have been times in my life when I have bumped into one of these people from that era in my life and I'll be damned if I even remembered them. You would be badgering me to tell you if I had sex with them because they obviously remembered me - why wouldn't I remember them?

 

In this case the truth is far from singular because I don't remember the person and all, they remember everything about me. Which truth is singular? Their's or mine?

 

The truth is singular. There is no "your truth" or "his truth". There is only what actually happened. Just because you have a faulty memory of events doesn't make them untrue. If I get blackout drunk and run over a jogger with my car, not remembering it happen doesn't make it any less real...This whole line of thinking is terribly flawed. You may not remember having sex with someone, but if his penis went inside your vagina... you had sex with him. No amount of traumatic amnesia or selective memory can obscure that. What you choose to remember is "your truth" but if "your truth" and "the truth" aren't the same thing... then "your truth" is a lie.

 

Here is something my husband has to deal with: I know that I have a very sordid past and there is much in my past that I cannot remember. I have reason to believe there is something pretty horrific in my past that may have happened to keep me from remembering aspects of my past. I know I have been raped three times. Every now and then my husband asks me if there might have been more because I have YEARS of my life that are completely blank.

 

To you, that is tantamount to lying!

 

Not remembering is not the same thing as lying. I don't remember where I was on August 3rd 1994. If you ask me I will say "I don't remember". If you ask me and I say "I was orbiting the earth in a spacecraft" that would be a lie. If one of the guys from your "orgy days" came up to you and said hello when you are with your husband and your husband asked "did you have sex with that guy?" then the honesty of your answer depends on a few factors. If you remember having sex with him and you say "no" or "I don't remember" then you are lying. If you genuinely don't remember and you say "no" then you are still lying. Just tell the bloody truth. Say yes if the answer is yes. Say no if the answer is no. Or say "I really don't remember" if you don't remember. It's not so difficult. If you just say whats true, and then you never have to lie. It's easy enough for a child to understand, yet adults have created 1000 loopholes to justify lying to our partners. If she was a prostitute or a porn star... I doubt she "forgot". You may not remember the specific guys you had sex with at the orgies, but you do remember the orgies... If you "choose to forget" something because it's unflattering, that's called lying.

 

And here is what I call you out on! Because I don't regret my past or those orgies or all those people. I am not hiding from any truth other than I can't remember specifics. But someone like you would be hammering me to tell you the absolute truth about my past!

 

My girlfriend has not had sex with 500 men, 40 at a time. This I'm pretty sure of. Your example is extreme. Under those conditions I can understand why it's difficult to remember specifics. We've both had around the same number of partners. (assuming she's being honest about her past I'd say 50ish?) And I can tell you for a fact, when you've only been with 50 or less people... You remember them. Of course when you take on 40 guys in a row it's going to be confusing to remember, but when you are sleeping with people one-on-one and hanging out together (getting drinks, dinner, parties etc) you don't forget the person. I've had a handful of one night stands or random hookups. I may not remember the girls name, but I remember that we hooked up and I might even recognize her if I saw her walking down the street. When you sleep with someone one-on-one... you don't forget. There have been a few nights when I was blackout drunk, and I don't remember having sex... but I do remember that I had sex...

 

But really this is inconsequential. I'm not probing her for a list of people she had a one-night-stand with... what I'm asking for is the "bigger truth"... the elephant in the room. What is she hiding from me? What skeletons are going to roll out of the closet 6 months from now... I could care less if she went home with some random guy after doing too many tequila shots. This is more like "honey, you better sit down... remember how you said I could tell you anything and you wouldn't be angry... well there's something I need to tell you..."

 

You keep saying this - so I have another question.

 

How long are you going to draw this out? Do you have an end date that your GF has to give you some definitive answer before you throw in the towel?

 

If I continue to feel like she is hiding things from me it will create distance between us and the relationship will collapse under it's own weight.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Your opinion is always more logical than most.

Edited July 29, 2015 by deadelvis

[CarrieT]

Right. Our perspective changes over time, but the facts remain the same. I may have been proud of throwing a brick through the window of my high school auditorium when I was 16, but looking back now I'm ashamed. But it doesn't change the fact that I did throw that brick. Even if I get amnesia and forget everything that happened in my life, I still threw that brick. You can't change the truth just by forgetting it.

This is my point that you seem to not get.

 

Your GF has something in her past that you seem determined to uncover - and she MAY NOT REMEMBER IT! The fact that you keep digging might uncover a world of pain in her.

 

With my past, I know there is something in my past that has forced me to blank out on years in my life. I have had some therapists suggest various forms of regressive memory therapy to reveal and address those things. Will I be better person for recovering those memories? Will it make me a better wife?

 

Why do you feel so compelled to continually bring up your GF's past? You have no right to her past whatsoever.

 

I have said that a number of times but you seem to believe otherwise. As a woman with a chequered and difficult past, it is what is wholly and entirely MINE and no one has a right to that except those with whom I choose to share it - or not - as the case may be.

 

Why should I have to relive something horrific just to appease a lover? OP, one of my rapes was a gang-rape at a Renaissance Faire. Because of it, I no longer go to fairs. If a partner invites me to a fair and I decline because of how uncomfortable it makes me - and give a polite reason that I would just rather not go - does that partner deserve to know the ENTIRE reason why I hate fairs?

Edited July 30, 2015 by CarrieT

[Gloria25]

Just curious here....

 

Let's say you're right and one day, one ha-ha-happy day she gives a full confessional and your deepest, darkest fears were true...

 

She confesses to being a prostitute, donkey shows, having incest, rape, etc....the worst of the worst....

 

Now what's gonna be your decision here?

 

Cure her? Nurse her to health?

 

Maybe you could get some counseling to see why you want such a woman with such drama...and/or move to a bigger town where there's more women to pick from.

[SammySammy]

This guy is mentally ill and abusive.

 

I wish I could find this poor girl and rescue her from him.

[Just a Guy]

Hi DE, guess you are looking for the holy grail which is unfathomable. With what you have let on about your GF I think your purpose would be best served if you were to let her go gently and find some one who you can trust and one who does not have as troubled a past as your present SO. Otherwise you are going to be on a roller coaster ride which is never going to stop. You have to make a sensible choice now and act on it. Cheers!

[deadelvis]

This is my point that you seem to not get.

 

Your GF has something in her past that you seem determined to uncover - and she MAY NOT REMEMBER IT! The fact that you keep digging might uncover a world of pain in her.

 

With my past, I know there is something in my past that has forced me to blank out on years in my life. I have had some therapists suggest various forms of regressive memory therapy to reveal and address those things. Will I be better person for recovering those memories? Will it make me a better wife?

 

Ummm... no. I'm not trying dig around in her repressed memories or get her to confront her childhood trauma. I'm just suspicious that this woman has done tons of sketchy stuff before we were together, and I have reason to believe she's lying about it. I'm not questioning her about being raped as a teenager. I'm not questioning her about anything. But I am convinced that she's hiding who she was in the past and the type of lifestyle she was involved in.

 

Why do you feel so compelled to continually bring up your GF's past? You have no right to her past whatsoever.

 

Not true. When you get involved in a long term relationship you have a right to know certain things about your partner.

 

I have said that a number of times but you seem to believe otherwise. As a woman with a chequered and difficult past, it is what is wholly and entirely MINE and no one has a right to that except those with whom I choose to share it - or not - as the case may be.

 

This is really deceptive. So you're saying if you got involved with a man, you don't think he deserves to know that you've had sex with hundreds of people and took on 50 men at a time? Not divulging that information to a partner constitutes a major breech of trust. If you got into a relationship with someone, failed to mention your "orgy days", and gave them the impression that you had a "normal" sexual history... that would be very wrong. In fact I think that's my biggest concern... That she's had a sexual history like yours, and has the same "none of his business" type of attitude. It's absolutely wrong to keep that information from your partner. If you have seriously hidden your sexual history from your partner and told him you were "a bit promiscuous" I think he deserves to know the truth. Otherwise you've deceived him into having a relationship without giving him enough background to make an informed decision. Just knowing that women like you are out there hiding your sexual history from your partner makes me shake my head. How could you really think he doesn't deserve to know?

 

Why should I have to relive something horrific just to appease a lover? OP, one of my rapes was a gang-rape at a Renaissance Faire. Because of it, I no longer go to fairs. If a partner invites me to a fair and I decline because of how uncomfortable it makes me - and give a polite reason that I would just rather not go - does that partner deserve to know the ENTIRE reason why I hate fairs?

 

I guess that entirely depends on the type of relationship you plan on having with your partner. It's not about reliving some past trauma. If you can type that story out on a forum for hundreds of people to read, don't you think you could also mention it to your partner? I'm confused about what you people think constitutes a healthy relationship. A normal couple tells each other everything and has no secrets. I don't get how you could ever be in a loving relationship and still holding back major secrets about your life. I want a partnership with trust and honesty. Not telling someone the truth about your life, history and sexual behaviors is just plain wrong.

 

It's not about digging up sexual abuse from a long time ago. There is a huge distinction between reliving a childhood rape and mentioning the time you did a gangbang at spring break. Trying to make a connection between the two may serve to validate your opinion, but it makes some major assumptions, and it puts dissimilar events into one neat and tidy package for you to dismiss. You were raped. So was she. That is a crime. Second only to murder in the eyes of our judicial system. Talking about rape is more similar to discussing the time I was brutally beaten in the street by a group of thugs. But neither of those events, assault or rape, have even the slightest similarity to performing sexual acts willingly. It actually appalls me that you would lump being raped into the same category as voluntarily participating in orgies. I don't dig around in her repressed rape memories. But there is a massive difference between being sexually assaulted and being a willing participant in an orgy. Don't get it twisted.