xxoo Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 In some ways you are right on the money, yet I have seen instances where something, any given issue has been ignored and it turned into something worse and spread like crabgrass. Is it ok when Christianity, and Christian symbols in society, spread like crabgrass? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Is it ok when Christianity, and Christian symbols in society, spread like crabgrass? No need to worry XO.. you guys are getting rid of everything. I was referring to something else, but since you asked... Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 No need to worry XO.. you guys are getting rid of everything. I was referring to something else, but since you asked... I'm not worried. Not about this satanic statue, and not about the Christianity my kids are exposed to on a daily basis. Each is an equally good launching point for discussion and practicing their critical thinking, IMO. We do a lot of that Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) BetheButterfly, you got several things wrong I think. separation of church and state means that the church and religious doctrine aren't part, cause or justification for any act of government. No single religion can be favored. by setting up huge monuments of one or a couple of particular religions the state gives it / them a special endorsement.The thing is, Protestant Christianity had been favored for a while in US history, which is why it was illegal to work on Sunday. For example, "In America the earliest Sunday-closing laws date back to 1610 in the colony of Virginia. They included not simply the mandatory closing of businesses on Sundays, but also mandatory church service participation." Origins of Blue Laws in America So obviously the single religion of Christianity was favored and the logic for this was because many of the European colonists to the "New World" identified as Christians or Theists. About Presidents of the USA, how many of them identified themselves as Christian? The majority? While I have not checked to make sure this wikipedia article is correct, the following is interesting. Please feel free to notice any pattern here and research them more (I don't have time right now cause I have to get ready for work soon): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliations_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States Edited July 30, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Excessive copy/paste ~T 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Is it ok when Christianity, and Christian symbols in society, spread like crabgrass? Is it ok that many Americans presidents used the Bible, including President Obama, in taking their oath of office, or is that "like crabgrass" and not their right based on freedom of religion? Presidential Inaugurations: Bibles and Scripture Passages Again, I have no problem with any religion of Americans being included in American government property. So, I consider it perfectly fine for example for a Muslim American to take oaths on the Qur'an and hang up quotes from the Qur'an. I disagree with Islam, but I respect Muslims' right to their freedoms. That's the beauty of freedom of religion. And, if a Satanist were elected into office and wanted to take his or her oath on a Satanic book, I respect the freedom of religion for Satanists too, even though I disagree with Satanism. Again, I wish there were more Native Americans religious symbols in American government buildings. I believe American Christians were disobedient to Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors by how they treated Native Americans and by slavery. If they had loved their neighbors like Jesus Christ commanded, I think there were be many more Native Americans alive today and they would be more active in the American government along with Christians and people of different beliefs as well as no belief. Edited July 30, 2015 by BetheButterfly 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think there is confusion between the truth that much of our formative foundation is based on Scriptural principles and the idea that we are "A Christian nation." If you thoroughly read all the documents, we were never intended as a theocracy. The reason people came here was to escape a government that was, in many respects, that way. At the time the US was founded, all its founders came from Judeo-Christian and Deist backgrounds. Like everyone does, they drew from what they knew. BUT they were very careful NOT to label the coutnry as a religion or as a theocracy. So we can cite old laws and what church Adams went to all day long. It still doesn't make us a theocracy. The wording and intent of the Constitution allowed for growth and change. There are reasons why it doesn't say, "government shall make no law respect an establishment of Christianity." We became a melting pot. And with that comes a variety of cultures, races, and yes, religions. When we try to INSIST that Christianity be placed, here, there, and there, what we are doing is opening the door for every other religion to do the same. While I personally am skeeved out big time by the goat statue, their point was made. According to OUR Constitution, if a statue of jesus is going to be on the courthouse or capitol lawn, then yes, a statue of Allah or a goat can be placed there too. I don;t have to like it, but that IS how our country works. Again, it is yet another reason Jesus didn't say "Go therefore and make laws." He said "Go therefore and make disciples." And that wasn't an option for "some people" while others were called to protest. NOPE. It was THE commission for everyone who actually believes the Bible. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think there is confusion between the truth that much of our formative foundation is based on Scriptural principles and the idea that we are "A Christian nation." True. If you thoroughly read all the documents, we were never intended as a theocracy. The reason people came here was to escape a government that was, in many respects, that way. At the time the US was founded, all its founders came from Judeo-Christian and Deist backgrounds. Like everyone does, they drew from what they knew. BUT they were very careful NOT to label the coutnry as a religion or as a theocracy.Agreed. So we can cite old laws and what church Adams went to all day long. It still doesn't make us a theocracy.Nope and I never said that the USA was a theocracy. My point is that the USA does have a Judeo-Christian background, which shows that the Founding Fathers did not consider it evil for people of religious beliefs to make rules according to the Bible and even take their oath of office by swearing on the Bible. The wording and intent of the Constitution allowed for growth and change. There are reasons why it doesn't say, "government shall make no law respect an establishment of Christianity." We became a melting pot. And with that comes a variety of cultures, races, and yes, religions. 100% agreed When we try to INSIST that Christianity be placed, here, there, and there, what we are doing is opening the door for every other religion to do the same. That's such an important point!!! That's also a part of Luke 6:31 or the Golden Rule. Since we want freedom, we need to give the same freedoms to others! While I personally am skeeved out big time by the goat statue, their point was made. Lol true. Sneaky sneaky brilliant strategy According to OUR Constitution, if a statue of jesus is going to be on the courthouse or capitol lawn, then yes, a statue of Allah or a goat can be placed there too.Yep, though most Muslims believe statues are idolatry. I don;t have to like it, but that IS how our country works.Agreed! Again, it is yet another reason Jesus didn't say "Go therefore and make laws." He said "Go therefore and make disciples." And that wasn't an option for "some people" while others were called to protest. NOPE. It was THE commission for everyone who actually believes the Bible.Amen!!! Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I love talking with you Bethebutterfly. We don't always agree, but love just floats from your words 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BetheButterfly Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I love talking with you Bethebutterfly. Aww I love talking to you too!!! We don't always agree, Nope, but that would be so dull if everyone always agreed with everybody else. but love just floats from your words God's love is amazing and transforming!!! I have to go now. God bless you and have a wonderful weekend! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think there is confusion between the truth that much of our formative foundation is based on Scriptural principles and the idea that we are "A Christian nation." If you thoroughly read all the documents, we were never intended as a theocracy. The reason people came here was to escape a government that was, in many respects, that way. At the time the US was founded, all its founders came from Judeo-Christian and Deist backgrounds. Like everyone does, they drew from what they knew. BUT they were very careful NOT to label the coutnry as a religion or as a theocracy. So we can cite old laws and what church Adams went to all day long. It still doesn't make us a theocracy. The wording and intent of the Constitution allowed for growth and change. There are reasons why it doesn't say, "government shall make no law respect an establishment of Christianity." We became a melting pot. And with that comes a variety of cultures, races, and yes, religions. When we try to INSIST that Christianity be placed, here, there, and there, what we are doing is opening the door for every other religion to do the same. While I personally am skeeved out big time by the goat statue, their point was made. According to OUR Constitution, if a statue of jesus is going to be on the courthouse or capitol lawn, then yes, a statue of Allah or a goat can be placed there too. I don;t have to like it, but that IS how our country works. Again, it is yet another reason Jesus didn't say "Go therefore and make laws." He said "Go therefore and make disciples." And that wasn't an option for "some people" while others were called to protest. NOPE. It was THE commission for everyone who actually believes the Bible. I disagree with this country isn't, or wasn't meant to be a Christian nation, although that is probably for another thread- going back in history and even today, the foundations, well I'd say all, but to be conservative will say most of nations are something based- whether it be Christianity, Islam, Communism, what have you... Just because a few want to remove God from everything- not just add to, but REMOVE all of Christianity, doesn't make this NOT a Christian nation. Remove the history (which they have from school books), remove anything their heart desires, but the fact is, they can't remove God. lol Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I disagree with this country isn't, or wasn't meant to be a Christian nation, although that is probably for another thread- going back in history and even today, the foundations, well I'd say all, but to be conservative will say most of nations are something based- whether it be Christianity, Islam, Communism, what have you... Just because a few want to remove God from everything- not just add to, but REMOVE all of Christianity, doesn't make this NOT a Christian nation. Remove the history (which they have from school books), remove anything their heart desires, but the fact is, they can't remove God. lol Removing Christianity would violate the Constitution. However, ONLY allowing Christianity and nothing else ALSO violates the Constitution. That is what a lot of people choose not to get. You want prayer in school? It will be ALL types of prayer. You want religious monuments on public grounds? It can be ALL religions. So it is fine to expect Christianity to be seen everywhere. Just know that, according to OUR Constitution, that DOES, in fact, mean everyone has a right to their religious fixtures as well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 It's quite simple. If you want the right to have symbols of your religion in society, you must accept that others have the right to have symbols of their religion in society, as well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think people wouldn't want to see this. Some would still misinterpret it completely... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Removing Christianity would violate the Constitution. However, ONLY allowing Christianity and nothing else ALSO violates the Constitution. That is what a lot of people choose not to get. You want prayer in school? It will be ALL types of prayer. You want religious monuments on public grounds? It can be ALL religions. So it is fine to expect Christianity to be seen everywhere. Just know that, according to OUR Constitution, that DOES, in fact, mean everyone has a right to their religious fixtures as well. Where did I say only? It wasn't even implied. FTR the Constitution doesn't cover cults... 'faith within reason' Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Where did I say only? It wasn't even implied. FTR the Constitution doesn't cover cults... 'faith within reason' Well of course it does....! cult kʌlt/noun a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. "the cult of St Olaf"I have never heard of any Cult being against the Law in the USA. Has anyone ever been arrested for belonging to, or heading a Cult, there? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Well of course it does....! I have never heard of any Cult being against the Law in the USA. Has anyone ever been arrested for belonging to, or heading a Cult, there? They are technically not against the law, but if you google, there have been many arrests. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Where did I say only? It wasn't even implied. FTR the Constitution doesn't cover cults... 'faith within reason' Well of course it does....! I have never heard of any Cult being against the Law in the USA. Has anyone ever been arrested for belonging to, or heading a Cult, there? They are technically not against the law, but if you google, there have been many arrests. Yes, but not because they're a Cult. Because of unlawful actions taken by members of a cult. So there's nothing 'technical' about it. The Constitution covers Cults, because they're not illegal. And are recognised as legitimate units. Sorry. But yes, your constitution INCLUDES Cults, whether you like them or not.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author TheFinalWord Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Yes, but not because they're a Cult. Because of unlawful actions taken by members of a cult. So there's nothing 'technical' about it. The Constitution covers Cults, because they're not illegal. And are recognised as legitimate units. Sorry. But yes, your constitution INCLUDES Cults, whether you like them or not.... I guess a question is, where do we draw the line? Do you think there is a line? To me, I see these folks basically as internet trolls. Not as a serious, valid religion. I don't mean to be offensive, but I just don't take this religion seriously. Maybe they can convince me otherwise, but I think they can get most Christians to accept their position if they can put it forward in a way that helps us understand. To autumns point, I agree. Personally, I don't mind all religions having a voice in the public square. I would rather everyone have a voice than a sterile public square. Religion plays a role in most people's lives and I think it's important that general notion of religion, and freedom of religion, are represented in the public square. I don't agree it it like a drug you have to take in your own home. It can be expressed publicly in a fair way. I just don't see "non-theistic satanism" as an actual religion. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really do try to see everyone's perspective, but with this I just don't see it as a serious religion. Is this non-theistic satanism something these people would die for? Is it something they hold sacred to their heart and stake their life on? Maybe, and if they say they would, okay. I would allow them to answer those questions, but I genuinely don't see it. If they said they actually worshiped a deity called Lucifer I might take it more seriously. But to me these are basically trolls that are using this as a tactic to get all religion out of the public square. I would be totally fine if they just said we're atheist and here's our statement...no problem. Edited July 31, 2015 by TheFinalWord Link to post Share on other sites
Author TheFinalWord Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 I think people wouldn't want to see this. Some would still misinterpret it completely... Can you give us the history? I know that symbol has been around way before the nazis... I agree, it would be misinterpreted. For example, in US we had a big issue with the Confederate flag. Personally, I was glad they took it down because, socially, the flag represented racism to a lot of people. I love civil war history and know there is a rich history with that flag, but socially it turned into a way to advance socially acceptable racism. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I guess a question is, where do we draw the line? Do you think there is a line? To me, I see these folks basically as internet trolls. Not as a serious, valid religion. I don't mean to be offensive, but I just don't take this religion seriously. Maybe they can convince me otherwise, but I think they can get most Christians to accept their position if they can put it forward in a way that helps us understand. To autumns point, I agree. Personally, I don't mind all religions having a voice in the public square. I would rather everyone have a voice than a sterile public square. Religion plays a role in most people's lives and I think it's important that general notion of religion, and freedom of religion, are represented in the public square. I don't agree it it like a drug you have to take in your own home. It can be expressed publicly in a fair way. I just don't see "non-theistic satanism" as an actual religion. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really do try to see everyone's perspective, but with this I just don't see it as a serious religion. Is this non-theistic satanism something these people would die for? Is it something they hold sacred to their heart and stake their life on? Maybe, and if they say they would, okay. I would allow them to answer those questions, but I genuinely don't see it. If they said they actually worshiped a deity called Lucifer I might take it more seriously. But to me these are basically trolls that are using this as a tactic to get all religion out of the public square. I would be totally fine if they just said we're atheist and here's our statement...no problem. The danger with this is...who gets to decide what is and isn't a "real" religion? Yes, obviously today, July 31, Christianity is considered a real religion. What if one day someone finds some loophole twisted way to say it isn't? It is my view that most religions/churches that aren't really religions/churches eventually just....die. There was only one church against which Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail. I prefer to let Him take care of the others. Think about it. Remember that cult where they all covered themselves with purple blankets and had the tennis shoes - the Halle Bopp people, I think? Does that even exist anymore? And do people follow Zoroastrianism anymore? Is anyone worshiping Baal? The main reason that I shrink back from trying to control what religion is "real" or "allowed" is because let's face it, in today's world, any limitations we as Christians try to put on religion WILL eventually come back at us. It's only a matter of time. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Yes, but not because they're a Cult. Because of unlawful actions taken by members of a cult. So there's nothing 'technical' about it. The Constitution covers Cults, because they're not illegal. And are recognised as legitimate units. Sorry. But yes, your constitution INCLUDES Cults, whether you like them or not.... ...and it stands to reason that true cults will break the law, usually in big ways. IMO it's their signature. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 The danger with this is...who gets to decide what is and isn't a "real" religion? Yes, obviously today, July 31, Christianity is considered a real religion. What if one day someone finds some loophole twisted way to say it isn't? It is my view that most religions/churches that aren't really religions/churches eventually just....die. There was only one church against which Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail. I prefer to let Him take care of the others. Think about it. Remember that cult where they all covered themselves with purple blankets and had the tennis shoes - the Halle Bopp people, I think? Does that even exist anymore? And do people follow Zoroastrianism anymore? Is anyone worshiping Baal? The main reason that I shrink back from trying to control what religion is "real" or "allowed" is because let's face it, in today's world, any limitations we as Christians try to put on religion WILL eventually come back at us. It's only a matter of time. ummm, ya... the worship of Baal is alive and well: https://thebiblestop.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/baal-worship-is-alive-and-well-in-the-world/ Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 ummm, ya... the worship of Baal is alive and well: https://thebiblestop.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/baal-worship-is-alive-and-well-in-the-world/ You think that having sex outside of marriage = worshipping Baal? I am having sex with my fiance and I don't even know who Baal is. I guess I better find out! I'll find a site without a religious bias though! Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I guess a question is, where do we draw the line? Do you think there is a line? I don't think we know where the line is until it's been challenged or crossed., Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You think that having sex outside of marriage = worshipping Baal? I am having sex with my fiance and I don't even know who Baal is. I guess I better find out! I'll find a site without a religious bias though! The worship of Baal covers a lot of things.. I would say Baal is a culmination of all uncool worship, meaning idolatry. Baal was the weather god, water god, you name it. The Israelites even managed to integrate him into their deal too... Link to post Share on other sites
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