The Usual-ish Story **Updated and Merged**

[sandylee1]

Yes that's exactly what I meant!

 

Sorry I misunderstood you.☺

[sandylee1]

Quote from Newleaf....

 

Thanks for calling me out here, I need to know how I could so easily forget my part in this.

 

Your welcome.

[NewLeaf512]

What is Bedford Row? If this is your workplace, you might not have intended to reveal this here on LS. Or maybe you did...

 

 

I'm not sure what you are asking me in the later 2 posts.

 

 

I doubt he has any legal right to prevent his wife acquiring knowledge. He can certainly ask his lawyer for complete confidentiality and he can request you to do not give his BW information. I doubt he can enforce it, but as you've retained your own lawyer you really need to ask him/her. Anything "commercial in confidence" you must not reveal but it seems to me that he doesn't want his BW to know the full extent of everything that transpired between you two. Most of which is probably nothing to do with any legal rights or obligations to maintain secrecy or confidentiality.

 

It's just a place where courts are not my place of business. As a BS,would you want OW to sign a non-disclosure? In case you wanted to contact OW, and OW was bound by an NDA would that upset you more?

[NewLeaf512]

In my country somebody has to physically accept a letter. Then it can be said to have been "served" on that person.

 

Poppy.

 

That should only apply for summons, order to appear, or if someone has taken an action and filed through the court. This was just a shot across the bow.

[Susmay]

It's just a place where courts are not my place of business. As a BS,would you want OW to sign a non-disclosure? In case you wanted to contact OW, and OW was bound by an NDA would that upset you more?

 

As a BS I wouldn't want my H entering into official agreements with the OW at all.

[NewLeaf512]

It's a common problem with legally qualified people that they take a far more legalistic approach to something that is inherently a personal tragedy. A lawyer's letter that is just a cease and desist or request for a certain course of action can be delivered through the ordinary post or by email. It is only certain formal legal type documents that need to be "served" with proof.

 

 

I agree this guy is most likely very worried and no doubt he's been advised by his lawyer that a letter requesting NewLeaf's silence is simply a request that she's under no obligation to comply with. However given the situation I would suggest NewLeaf tread very carefully if she does decide to approach the BW. She should be aware of whatever stalking and defamation laws apply. However if BW actually wants info from NewLeaf then stalking of the BW is a no-go but it's still possible for NewLeaf to be perceived as stalking the MM, so best stay away from him given he's asked. She should stick to the truth so there's no defamation. No revealing of employer or client info. Save everything, to an external device as well, "just in case".

 

Thanks for this insightful post. Firstly I wrote my response at 4 am and didn't mean to write BR it was just stream of consciousness flowing out. Do you know how I can delete it?

 

Now to your points above. Here is my feeling. For whatever reason exMM did a 180 and that was his choice. It's for me to respect (which I am) even if it hurt me or baffles me. He chose, they deserve my absence to get on with whatever they are doing. There is no intention on my part to contact exMM BW or anyone else. What purpose would that serve to anyone? None.

 

I have checked with my lawyer re:stalking, privacy invasion and a host of other topics. Stalking doesn't apply as NC. In the place they live phone calls of more than 15 in a 24 hour period, following people, etc. none apply. In his country they have constitutional rights which extend to visitors in the country such as free speech. As long as you are relaying true information that you yourself were party to, and discussing only your own feelings about events and not surmising or presuming what another party was feeling, and you make no disparaging remarks oral or written that speak to character of anyone, you can talk about it because it's your life story (good news I don't want to speak to anyone I know in r/l except in a generality of "we are not in contact anymore " because it's improper I think.

 

I have a few practice areas. My specialisation had to do with computers, intellectual property and digital, mobile, cloud and Internet communications. When you write an email or send a photo until you hit the send key those items are owned by the creator. As the traffic passes through the ISP channel the ISP owns it. Once the recipient gets it they own it in its entirety EXCEPT if it is trademarked, copy written, or has a disclaimer on the bottom of the email. It then is up to the recipient/ owner what to do with that communication.

 

Theoretically I could write a book about my experiences (it's part of my life story) and include extracts, reproduction in full of any email photo etc if none of tha caveats above apply AND the sender/creator is NOT a public figure or celebrity who licenses their image.So I'm covered there.

 

As I have no intention of contacting anyone I'm also clear. What I won't allow is some small town lawyer to throw this stupid letter at me and try to scare me into a gag order without a writ. Furthermore it tells me more about exMM than he probably suspects. If I had been a vengeful person I could have anonymously emailed ethics with a note saying exMM is in breach of conduct these are photos sent from his company paid mobile device. They would investigate and he'd be immediately sacked for gross misconduct. I haven't done that.

 

It's likely as you suggest he has not told BW everything. That's between them. And although I could have sent her a packet of stuff I didn't. This poor lady has suffered enough at mine and Ex MM hands it would be malicious and cruel and I'm not that person.

 

In a post last night I suggested I had an interesting tidbit to share. Like most OW I put up with a lot of crumbs (no ones fault but mine), but there were a few instances of incredible, thoughtless and perhaps deliberate acts of disrespect after which exMM grovelled a bit and I accepted him back. The last instance occurred the last weekend in May. This is when the fog started to lift. He begged and begged. I said after a few days ... Ok I'll let you into my life again on some terms which you must sign. So I wrote a contract for behaviour and the consequences of him conducting himself in a manner against the contract would result in 1. Me never seeing or speaking to me again 2. Me telling his BS because it would prove to me that he was a cake eater and 3. £15,000 injury to hurt feeling award. Did he sign and and have another lawyer witness? You bet he did. I have no intention of enforcement unless he tries to hurt my professional reputation. I left my position so he could continue without duress. I am quite senior to him and looking for a new role. That is the only way I would go for a C&D and I'd do it through his solicitors.

 

(His last act of unbelievably bad behaviour was on 30 June) and what is what led to his confession I believe.

[NewLeaf512]

As a BS I wouldn't want my H entering into official agreements with the OW at all.

 

I concur completely. Not unless BS is aware and agrees. I have learned the errors of my way a lot on this one.

[AnotherSadSong]

NewLeaf did you lend him 15,000 or is that part of the document you signed for emotional duress? I am confused here. Which country was that legalized document prepared and signed. This would make a difference perhaps because here in the States, they would never award that. I am not sure we have lawyers who would draw that up between affair partners because the money would involve the BS too.

[NewLeaf512]

It's likely as you suggest he has not told BW everything. That's between them. And although I could have sent her a packet of stuff I didn't. This poor lady has suffered enough at mine and Ex MM hands it would be malicious and cruel and I'm not that person.

 

In a post last night I suggested I had an interesting tidbit to share. Like most OW I put up with a lot of crumbs (no ones fault but mine), but there were a few instances of incredible, thoughtless and perhaps deliberate acts of disrespect after which exMM grovelled a bit and I accepted him back. The last instance occurred the last weekend in May. This is when the fog started to lift. He begged and begged. I said after a few days ... Ok I'll let you into my life again on some terms which you must sign. So I wrote a contract for behaviour and the consequences of him conducting himself in a manner against the contract would result in 1. Me never seeing or speaking to me again 2. Me telling his BS because it would prove to me that he was a cake eater and 3. £15,000 injury to hurt feeling award. Did he sign and and have another lawyer witness? You bet he did. I have no intention of enforcement unless he tries to hurt my professional reputation. I left my position so he could continue without duress. I am quite senior to him and looking for a new role. That is the only way I would go for a C&D and I'd do it through his solicitors.

 

(His last act of unbelievably bad behaviour was on 30 June) and what is what led to his confession I believe.

 

I wanted to add to the closing "as well as me reminding him of his agreement and my threat to enforce it'"

[RainDown]

It's just a place where courts are not my place of business. As a BS,would you want OW to sign a non-disclosure? In case you wanted to contact OW, and OW was bound by an NDA would that upset you more?

 

That depends. If my husband was at risk of losing his job because of an affair and we needed his income to sustain our family, I might participate in actions to prevent OW from doing damage to my husband's professional position/reputation. I might figure OW has already damaged my marriage, I'll be damned if she damages our financial situation as well.

 

It'll not uncommon for WS and BS to join forces and circle the wagons against OW when the sh*t hits the fan.

[Susmay]

...Do you know how I can delete it?

 

...So I wrote a contract for behaviour and the consequences of him conducting himself in a manner against the contract ....

 

 

I don't know for sure. Perhaps if you click on the alert key and ask the mods they might be willing to delete it.

 

 

Not meaning to be rude but your example of the behaviour "contact" is a good example of what I mentioned before, ie legally qualified people overly legalising personal relationships. I wonder if it's enforceable in a common law country, given the difficulty of enforcing domestic contracts?

 

 

PS I'm not asking you to address this, or defend it's enforceability. I'm sure we can both think of some of the issues that would need to be taken into account.

[Susmay]

That depends. If my husband was at risk of losing his job because of an affair and we needed his income to sustain our family, I might participate in actions to prevent OW from doing damage to my husband's professional position/reputation. I might figure OW has already damaged my marriage, I'll be damned if she damages our financial situation as well.

 

It'll not uncommon for WS and BS to join forces and circle the wagons against OW when the sh*t hits the fan.

 

 

I should have added "without my knowledge" to my comment about not wanting my H and an OW to enter into agreements.

 

However I now see that this MM apparently already entered into an agreement with the OW to be of certain behaviour. The more I think about this the more gobsmacked I am about it...

Edited July 18, 2015 by Susmay

[NewLeaf512]

NewLeaf did you lend him 15,000 or is that part of the document you signed for emotional duress? I am confused here. Which country was that legalized document prepared and signed. This would make a difference perhaps because here in the States, they would never award that. I am not sure we have lawyers who would draw that up between affair partners because the money would involve the BS too.

 

I lent him 15000 on a simple loan agreement contact.

 

The bad behaviour contract is known as an "acceptable behaviour contract" or ABC. Traditionally they have been used on children but were deemed unenforceable on minors. They have now come in as a contender in romantic relationships however what judge you get will determine if it's actually in force or not. The intention obviously way symbolic but to show I was serious and not issuing an ultimatum. It was exMM decision to do so.

[AnotherSadSong]

It's likely as you suggest he has not told BW everything. That's between them. And although I could have sent her a packet of stuff I didn't. This poor lady has suffered enough at mine and Ex MM hands it would be malicious and cruel and I'm not that person.

 

In a post last night I suggested I had an interesting tidbit to share. Like most OW I put up with a lot of crumbs (no ones fault but mine), but there were a few instances of incredible, thoughtless and perhaps deliberate acts of disrespect after which exMM grovelled a bit and I accepted him back. The last instance occurred the last weekend in May. This is when the fog started to lift. He begged and begged. I said after a few days ... Ok I'll let you into my life again on some terms which you must sign. So I wrote a contract for behaviour and the consequences of him conducting himself in a manner against the contract would result in 1. Me never seeing or speaking to me again 2. Me telling his BS because it would prove to me that he was a cake eater and 3. £15,000 injury to hurt feeling award. Did he sign and and have another lawyer witness? You bet he did. I have no intention of enforcement unless he tries to hurt my professional reputation. I left my position so he could continue without duress. I am quite senior to him and looking for a new role. That is the only way I would go for a C&D and I'd do it through his solicitors.

 

(His last act of unbelievably bad behaviour was on 30 June) and what is what led to his confession I believe.

 

I wanted to add to the closing "as well as me reminding him of his agreement and my threat to enforce it'"

 

 

The expression of a MM when faced with adult conflict and especially when it come to grown up adult agreements: no additional icon for hiding underneath the covers.

 

 

They have zero conscious to break their oaths and vows nevertheless every other document, legalized or not and promise.

 

 

They are con artists plain and simple, unless it is an exit affair and they are full of will to change their life and do the hard work. The rest are looking for easy pay outs. Hands are palm up. Beggars....please donate your time, love, ear, compassion, empathy, and your soul to me freely so I may later stomp on it.

[AnotherSadSong]

I lent him 15000 on a simple loan agreement contact.

 

The bad behaviour contract is known as an "acceptable behaviour contract" or ABC. Traditionally they have been used on children but were deemed unenforceable on minors. They have now come in as a contender in romantic relationships however what judge you get will determine if it's actually in force or not. The intention obviously way symbolic but to show I was serious and not issuing an ultimatum. It was exMM decision to do so.

 

Ok thanks Leaf, your mentioning twice the sum of 15,000 made it unclear if they were two separate issues.

[Susmay]

I lent him 15000 on a simple loan agreement contact.

 

The bad behaviour contract is known as an "acceptable behaviour contract" or ABC. Traditionally they have been used on children but were deemed unenforceable on minors. They have now come in as a contender in romantic relationships however what judge you get will determine if it's actually in force or not. The intention obviously way symbolic but to show I was serious and not issuing an ultimatum. It was exMM decision to do so.

 

 

I think if these ABC's are breached then the agencies concerned can then exercise whatever discretions they have to do something else or impose some sort of penalty assuming they can do so anyway irrespective of the ABC. I doubt they could be used to extract sums of money upon breach, or to impose some other penalty that the agency does not otherwise have the power to impose. Symbolic yes...

[NewLeaf512]

I should have added "without my knowledge" to my comment about not wanting my H and an OW to enter into agreements.

 

However I now see that this MM apparently already entered into an agreement with the OW to be of certain behaviour. The more I think about this the more gobsmacked I am about it...

 

Susmay it's an ABC, 99% unenforceable. It was a symbolic gesture and it actually for me marked the start of my apathy towards exMM and the realisation that what I had done was so wrong to BW. I was in my country. I sent my part of the executed documents to him. We had a telepresence session with the notary present so I could watch him wet sign it, get it sealed by the notary and sent by FedEx back to me.

 

All the while throughout the A I acted like a common tramp and a doormat. This was my first step in breaking out, and knowing that I deserved more than empty promises and that exMM deserved more than to have me involved in her life without her knowledge.

[AnotherSadSong]

I think if these ABC's are breached then the agencies concerned can then exercise whatever discretions they have to do something else or impose some sort of penalty assuming they can do so anyway irrespective of the ABC. I doubt they could be used to extract sums of money upon breach, or to impose some other penalty that the agency does not otherwise have the power to impose. Symbolic yes...

 

The BS, the wife could argue it is her money with the 15,000 dollar emotional impact suit, but this fact will not play with the actual exchange of money for a personal loan signed by lawyers and the two parties.

[NewLeaf512]

That depends. If my husband was at risk of losing his job because of an affair and we needed his income to sustain our family, I might participate in actions to prevent OW from doing damage to my husband's professional position/reputation. I might figure OW has already damaged my marriage, I'll be damned if she damages our financial situation as well.

 

It'll not uncommon for WS and BS to join forces and circle the wagons against OW when the sh*t hits the fan.

 

If I was BW I'd do the same.

[velvette]

I lent him 15000 on a simple loan agreement contact.

 

The bad behaviour contract is known as an "acceptable behaviour contract" or ABC. Traditionally they have been used on children but were deemed unenforceable on minors. They have now come in as a contender in romantic relationships however what judge you get will determine if it's actually in force or not. The intention obviously way symbolic but to show I was serious and not issuing an ultimatum. It was exMM decision to do so.

 

 

I suspect the only decision he made was to humor you.

 

 

Frankly, this is the silliest thing I have heard of with regard to A and I would expect you would both be laughed out of court if it went there and as lawyers possibly even punished in some way for wasting the courts time. The minute you thought you had to prepare a doc like this you should have ended the A.

 

 

You are way overcomplicating this. You made it clear you were going to contact his W if he didn't do what you wanted. Whether you said it, put it in a contract or what, its a THREAT hanging over his head.

 

 

Then you let him know you were following through on that threat and you did. You are a loose cannon in his view and the email he had his attorney send is his attempt at damage control.

 

 

Just like your attorney has told you. Ignore it, remain no contact and focus on healing yourself rather than taking legal action. As for the money he owes you, cut your losses if you don't need it and move on with your life. If you are having trouble doing that, it might be wiser to consult a therapist than another attorney.

[NewLeaf512]

The BS, the wife could argue it is her money with the 15,000 dollar emotional impact suit, but this fact will not play with the actual exchange of money for a personal loan signed by lawyers and the two parties.

 

 

That could be a defence if they didn't keep separate accounts which they do, and it was a community property state which it isn't. It's not about the money. That amount in this case is a notional sum. It was a symbolic move to get him to understand that the boundaries I put down were real, that it would not be like every other time where I had 0 self respect which is why I chose a basically unenforceable contract that's barely recognised and probably unenforceable

[Susmay]

The BS, the wife could argue it is her money with the 15,000 dollar emotional impact suit, but this fact will not play with the actual exchange of money for a personal loan signed by lawyers and the two parties.

 

 

If I have understood correctly, and of course I could be totally wrong:

 

 

One amount of $15,000 was apparently a loan from the OW to the MM, to help fund his divorce lawyer.

 

 

The other $15,000 mentioned, was an amount to be paid if the ABC was breached. NewLeaf has agreed this ABC is unenforceable anyway. However if he actually paid it, I guess the BW would have difficulty getting this back.

 

 

I really hope no real legal suits actually happen here. It really does look like posturing by some lawyers who have actually managed to involve some other lawyers!

[RainDown]

I think if these ABC's are breached then the agencies concerned can then exercise whatever discretions they have to do something else or impose some sort of penalty assuming they can do so anyway irrespective of the ABC. I doubt they could be used to extract sums of money upon breach, or to impose some other penalty that the agency does not otherwise have the power to impose. Symbolic yes...

 

Maybe so, but I'm thinking if I have to draw up a contract dictating my romantic partner's behavior and specifying the consequences should he be non-compliant with my conditions, I'd be re-thinking my relationship style.

 

While I know that pre and antenuptial agreements are all the rage in the US, they are agreements that are part of a MARITAL contract and generally address division of assets when the relationship terminates. I've never heard of one between affair partners, who generally have no shared assets or debts or anything else to divide/fight over when the affair ends. And I can't imagine US courts getting involved in the petty squabbles of relationship break-ups because someone's feelings got hurt.

 

Maybe is a European thing?

[Susmay]

...I would expect you would both be laughed out of court if it went there ...

 

 

"I concur!"

[AnotherSadSong]

I suspect the only decision he made was to humor you.

 

 

Frankly, this is the silliest thing I have heard of with regard to A and I would expect you would both be laughed out of court if it went there and as lawyers possibly even punished in some way for wasting the courts time. The minute you thought you had to prepare a doc like this you should have ended the A.

 

 

You are way overcomplicating this. You made it clear you were going to contact his W if he didn't do what you wanted. Whether you said it, put it in a contract or what, its a THREAT hanging over his head.

 

 

Then you let him know you were following through on that threat and you did. You are a loose cannon in his view and the email he had his attorney send is his attempt at damage control.

 

 

Just like your attorney has told you. Ignore it, remain no contact and focus on healing yourself rather than taking legal action. As for the money he owes you, cut your losses if you don't need it and move on with your life. If you are having trouble doing that, it might be wiser to consult a therapist than another attorney.

 

 

I do not see it as a way for the MM to humor leaf. I see it as this MM is an extra special kind of stupid. Leaf, did the personal loan documents specify what he was going to use the 15,000 for? Did it specify divorce or was he free to do whatever he wanted with the funds?