It never ends

[bigman1]

Drifter, you said the following: "So I am as trapped as I feel...and suicide would just leave her raising him alone. More compartmentalization, ... and more of me just trying to hold it all together for the boy."

 

Drifter, you have not addressed the suicide portion at all in your replies. Your grandson will get older or his folks will get clean and then what? Boom?!! Come on man, there is so much more to deal with here.

 

Your taking one for the team sounds so noble, to you. You are in a prison in your mind. I suggest that you start living for YOURSELF. Wherever that takes you is the place that you need to be. It will be the best place for your grand kid and your wife, whether she remains you wife or not. Living for yourself is not living for others. It is living for you and others get to come along for the ride.

 

In my business, I tell my client's that if they rule out options then they guarantee failure. You have ruled out options and actually chosen lack of fulfillment, another word for failure. Choose again. Good luck to you.

[velvette]

I'm relaxed, thanks.

 

I have said the same thing as you, that people who think it won't happen to them are more likely to have it happen. Now I need to evaluate the fact that I was wrong on that.

 

 

 

You weren't in my shoes. And obviously, you cheated too.

 

I think my behavior as an OW was reprehensible. However, I didn't lie or cheat on a relationship of mine, or go against promises in MY relationship, because he was my only relationship. I think that difference matters.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

This is not about you or me and I don't think any of that matters to Drifter's situation, so I will not be debating it anymore unless you want to start a different thread.

[Hope Shimmers]

This is not about you or me and I don't think any of that matters to Drifter's situation, so I will not be debating it anymore unless you want to start a different thread.

 

Great idea, which should have been implemented before your first post to me. Thanks.

[Mr. Lucky]

In my business, I tell my client's that if they rule out options then they guarantee failure. You have ruled out options and actually chosen lack of fulfillment, another word for failure. Choose again. Good luck to you.

 

I'm not sure the OP's existence as a BS makes divorce any more difficult than it would be for most spouses at his point in life. There are logistical issues of custody, asset division and lifestyle as there are with all couples. Some here want to intertwine his marital status and history, to me they're two different things.

 

When a marriage becomes untenable AND you've exhausted all options, divorce is the sensible choice. Doesn't change the past but also doesn't mortgage the future...

 

Mr. Lucky

[road]

But the problem with this is you saying it is the WS fault for 30 years. What about the BS choice to stay? When does one become responsible for their own actions as a BS? Or can they continue to blame their unhappiness and bad marriage on the WS so long as they "think" they haven't heard it all. And in this exact case it wasn't trickle truth being talked about but the WS not giving the "why" answer that the BS wants to hear. She admits she was selfish and wanted strange. That she is a narcissist. But after 30 years of him still asking why? What left is there to say?

 

 

When the WS refuses to answer the BS questions then it is the WS fault that recovery stalled. For the WS has not given that BS the what they need to recover.

 

 

I have said and will again now, asking "why" is a useless question for I have never seen a BS get an answer that was worth the effort to get that answer. So I always tell the BS not to pursue the "why".

 

 

In the case when a WW and a BH stay married and never recover because it is both of their fault. In that both the WW and the BH stay married 30 years with their recovery being stalled.

 

 

Though that is their decision to stay married. For when everything is considered they are making the decision that is best for them, that is what they want.

 

 

This WW chose to stay in a marriage that never healed. Yet people forget the WW chose to have an affair. This WW has had to face the consequences of her decisions.

 

 

30 years of consequences because a WW just banged some OM. Well if you feel that 30 years is too much. Think of it as this.

 

 

What if 30 years ago the WW had an OC?

 

 

There is no statue of limitations, time limits, for consequences.

[Zenstudent]

I really don't know what thread you were reading but none of us low-life waywards told him to just "get over it"

I really don't know what post you were reading, because no where in the post you quoted did I say "low-life waywards".

 

I'm sorry that this was the best you could extract from my post.

[drifter777]

So many opinions, advice, suggestions that I cannot address each of them. So, here's my take, in general, on your posts.

 

Suicide is always an option for everyone. A bad, selfish, hurtful option but an option none the less. No matter how hopeless I feel about my life - and I don't feel hopeless right now - I could never kill myself. I couldn't do that to my family - it's impossible. So no reason to post about this.

 

I've posted on this thread that I have concluded that there is no answer to "why" she can give me that I would accept as a "good" answer. Nothing she can say will ever make me say to myself "Ok - now I get it!" and be all better. I want to know something that has a reason and that reason is hollow, empty, and just an excuse.

 

My wife hasn't had to pay any real consequences for what she did. She can say that having to revisit it with me and answer questions and see my anger & frustration and sadness is a consequence. But, to me, it's bogus because she only has to deal with these thing when I bring them up due to my unresolved feelings. And she's responsible for these feelings. She's not having to deal with any more emotion and sadness then I am when we discuss all of this.

 

I keep thinking about the "why" thing and realize there is another reason I ask her. I want to see her reaction to the question. Her body language, voice inflection, facial expressions - all of these are non-verbal reactions that say more to me than her words. And they should because a person can lie about something fairly easily but non-verbal clues give them away. I am exceptionally good at reading people and its mostly due to my ability to see & feel the truth about things regardless of the words coming out of their mouth. So its not just to see her squirm, it's my attempt to get the bottom-line truth about every question I ask. She's still lying about things and its hard for me to let that slide. But the "why" thing is really not about the answer; it's a baseline question from which we start the discussion.

 

Many WW's just cannot accept that the length of time since they cheated does not mean that what they did will fade to near-black in their BH's mind. Time alone means nothing and if the affair/cheating is swept under the rug and the BH just compartmentalizes and trudges forward then the time that passes is meaningless toward him recovering. Its a ticking time bomb within his soul and will become more then he can swallow at some point in time. You won't believe this and you won't believe your BH falls into this category. Of course lots of BH's are able to face the truth and work through their feelings and then decide whether to reconcile or divorce. But lots of us will never seek help, will internalize & compartmentalize our feelings, and you will not believe that this applies to your BH.

 

I stay for companionship, for family, and to raise my grandson. You will settle for less then ideal many times in your life - get used to it.

 

I post on LS about the danger for a BH who does not honestly face the reality of being cheated on now, when it happens. Delaying it is like waiting to be treated for cancer; it keeps growing and the prognosis for forgiveness keeps falling. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this view.

[Noirek]

I really don't know what post you were reading, because no where in the post you quoted did I say "low-life waywards".

 

I'm sorry that this was the best you could extract from my post.

 

I quoted you but my comment on your quote was the attitude given by you and many others. Our opinions don't matter to many of you and the attitude given is of second class citizens. And frankly I myseld feel like a low life. But many posters have ignorantly been saying that the waywards are saying to "get over it". Purposefully picking on us really. I guess whatever it takes to dismiss our opinion.

 

Drifter, i guess this is the life you have chosen. I would agree it has been far to many years of both of you justifying your own actions and attitude. At this point I guess you are right that nothing will change-because neither of you are doing anything different. And if that is good enough for you and your life then who are we to judge? But, i do wonder with so much hate towards waywards and your wife and so much discontent you can be even a little happy? If you are and posting here is merely your outlet to "save" others from your fate then I guess that is your choice too.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I quoted you but my comment on your quote was the attitude given by you and many others. Our opinions don't matter to many of you and the attitude given is of second class citizens. And frankly I myseld feel like a low life. But many posters have ignorantly been saying that the waywards are saying to "get over it". Purposefully picking on us really. I guess whatever it takes to dismiss our opinion.

 

Drifter, i guess this is the life you have chosen. I would agree it has been far to many years of both of you justifying your own actions and attitude. At this point I guess you are right that nothing will change-because neither of you are doing anything different. And if that is good enough for you and your life then who are we to judge? But, i do wonder with so much hate towards waywards and your wife and so much discontent you can be even a little happy? If you are and posting here is merely your outlet to "save" others from your fate then I guess that is your choice too.

 

 

yep...i agree with this

[drifter777]

Our opinions don't matter to many of you and the attitude given is of second class citizens. And frankly I myseld feel like a low life.

 

Only when a WW tells a BH how he "should" feel and judging his efforts to recover do I shake my head and wonder how & why they think they know. Other then that I welcome all feedback for me and enjoy the WW point of view on other threads.

 

If you feel like a low life it is not the fault of the poster. No one can make you "feel" anything.

 

Drifter, i guess this is the life you have chosen. I would agree it has been far to many years of both of you justifying your own actions and attitude. At this point I guess you are right that nothing will change-because neither of you are doing anything different. And if that is good enough for you and your life then who are we to judge? But, i do wonder with so much hate towards waywards and your wife and so much discontent you can be even a little happy? If you are and posting here is merely your outlet to "save" others from your fate then I guess that is your choice too.

Where do you come up with the hate thing?

[Rainbowlove]

No one can make you "feel" anything.

 

This includes forgiveness, peace and happiness.

 

No one can make you feel anything.

 

Indeed.

[Mrs. John Adams]

well in my case...i am both a fww and a fbs....so i think i got this....

 

and i hear an awful lot of contempt here...and it is kind of offensive.

[dreamingoftigers]

Yes, I'm finally coming to the conclusion - or awakening - that there is no answer to the question "Why?" that will ever satisfy me. I realized that there could be no possible answer that would make me think - "oh, I get it! I don't blame you and I probably would have done it too!". That's what I'm looking for - an answer that makes enough sense to me so I can be at peace with it. So whatever answer I get is insulting and stirs my anger and sadness and makes me feel hopeless.

 

To those that say "it's time to leave" - you don't understand. You can't. I could have divorced her much easier if we were still relatively young. It would have been much easier to co-parent our 3 kids then to even begin to do the same with my grandson. His mother, my daughter, is a drug addict who is actively using heroin and meth. His father still lives with her so is just as active. They live between his mothers house (who can only stand them for a couple days) bartering for a room with a drug friend, or sleeping in the cab of their pickup. My wife and I won custody of him last October. The whole process, including a 3 day trial, cost me around $40k - just to give anyone who thinks it's easy to take someone child away from them a dose of reality. Without the lawyer we would have lost. Period. The system is stacked heavily in favor of the biological parents, and I think that is right. The decree the judge signed included a Residential Schedule that gives both his mom & dad 3 hours of visitation every other week. It must take place with either my wife or I present. If they get clean and can show 36 consecutive months of drug tests to prove it, then they can go back to the judge and ask for a change in the residential schedule. They haven't even take a single test. The only positive thing they have done is to visit him religiously every other week. They haven't missed a visit and they are extremely grateful that we are making a life for him. It sounds odd but the trial - our testimony - opened their eyes. They are changing but I don't know if they will ever be able to care for him again.

 

If my wife and I fought and argued over this routinely then whoever wanted to say that it's not a good environment for him would be right. But even then, what environment would be better? Foster care? We are not young and keeping up with everything he needs is a two-person job. Unless you are over 59 then don't even comment on this because you don't know what you are talking about. And, as I said in the very opening post, I have held off on discussing this in any depth for nearly a year. I judged that I can carry this burden silently for as long as I can. That means if it has to spill out, like yesterday, I will find a time and place that won't affect my grandson. We don't fight about this, I don't "call her names", I don't try to use it for "leverage" in arguments. We live our lives day to day like most people. We are devoted to raising the boy and share in the responsibilities. I've worked hard and we are financially ok. We take vacations as a family and as a couple.

 

I will never forget and therefore never find peace. Forgiveness has to be earned and, so far, she hasn't show me she is remorseful enough. I have no doubt that I am looking for something that isn't there because, well, I'm looking for a miracle. Her attempt to be truthful over the past few years makes it appear, at least to me, that she is not remorseful. She is not a great communicator so after my OP yesterday I went home and we discussed it further (two hours before my grandson got home from school). I was angry and she didn't understand why. She said that, yes, when she did it her motivation was simply to have sex with other guys and end our marriage. She felt she hadn't had enough experience before we married - only two guys & only touchy feely with one of them - and she wanted more. When she got it she found it exciting for a couple weeks. She loved being complemented and fussed over. Of course she says the sex wasn't great - they all lie about this one - and that after a couple weeks she felt empty. She believed that, due to my 180, she had lost me. She thought that if she waited any longer to try to get me back that it would be too late. She was sad that I didn't care enough to fight for her or beg her to let me come home or any of that crap. She lured me into the house when I dropped my son off and then threw herself at me out of desperation. She said it was like I was a balloon floating away and she had to grab the string before I was gone. Most telling about this, for me, is that she told me at that time she wasn't sure she wanted to stay with me "forever". She wanted me so I was still an option. I was the "leader in the clubhouse" but she had to keep her options open. I now accept that I was the plan B because it makes sense from her perspective. I hear truth. If I would have thought this is how she felt back then, I know it would have propelled me right out of the apartment and I would not have looked back. She says that now, looking back, she knows how horribly selfish it was. That not ending our marriage before acting like she was single was a chicken-sh*t & hurtful thing to do. She will always see her side of the story, that she didn't do it to hurt me and that she was just young and stupid. But at the same time she now understand it was wrong but simply didn't look at it that way at the time. I hate this fact. I hate it and it hurts every time she says it or I think about it. Its despicable. And its a truth that I have to find a way to live with to find peace. And if I don't then, well, I'll die without finding that peace.

 

She says that if I had done this to her she would have killed me and gladly lived in prison. BS's - does this sound familiar? She also knows that until it happens to you, you don't have a clue how you really would react. But her empathy now is real and she agrees that what she did tainted our marriage forever. I can feel her fear that I will retaliate by cheating myself someday.

 

For those that suggest counseling, I started counseling maybe 20 years ago. After about 3 or 4 years I stopped. Then I started again about 10 years ago and still go today. I have an experienced professional that I talk to about all of my stresses every week.

 

If I could do it over I would have not come back. Its been way more trouble and pain then it's been worth. I will always advise a BH without children to divorce. For those with kids I'll encourage them to do the hard 180 for themselves and their children. It either gets the marriage back to the point where they can try to reconcile or it finalizes the end. This is what I believe is best because I've lived the other way and it really sucks. And I will remind anyone that the 180 is NOT a strategy - it is a decision to take back your life and take the action that is required to do that. The universe rewards action.

 

Thanks for the feedback - all of you. I will only add that, once again, the feedback from BS's and WS's is just as different and personally slanted as ever. I guess that's the way it will always be, it just makes me shake my head. I could probably count the times I've posted on a thread started by a BW on one hand. I can't know what it's like to be a woman betrayed by her husband so I don't even try.

 

It's about the same.

 

The whole world turns grey.

 

Your partner turns from The One You Love to The Slut You Don't Even Know.

 

You feel contempt for them, deep sadness, loss, grief, loss of faith in love and trust. You feel like the whole world is just out there ****ing except for you. Sex is tainted. You rage against it.

 

You try to get the truth and they withhold it.

 

It shatters your self-worth and you wonder about people you meet etc. Are they betraying someone they supposedly love?

 

You feel weak for staying and an A-hole for leaving. It drains you, you resent them, yet you want to feel whole and loved again. You want to feel special.

 

But deep down, you know that you aren't to them anymore. You are just another name on the list of places they could be for the moment.

[LifeWasted]

Tell your WW that you will live with her amicably until your grandson's 18th birthday. On that day you are out the door. Tell her she needs to prepare for that day.

[drifter777]

Tell your WW that you will live with her amicably until your grandson's 18th birthday. On that day you are out the door. Tell her she needs to prepare for that day.

This seems like a passive, empty threat. Like when we were kids and we used the old "if I wasn't wearing my new pants I'd fight you".

 

I want to face reality and deal with it as it is right now. My goal is acceptance and peace of mind - continue to reduce the images of her & OM having sex. I need to know that she understands how childish and narcissistic her actions were and own what she did. That her decision to "find her sexual self" and then be happy about what she found - and expect me to be happy - is borderline insane. My counselor has asked me to consider the fact that she may be literally unable to see the wrong in her actions. I won't accept this and I've encouraged her to return to IC and take an honest look at herself.

[Rainbowlove]

continue to reduce the images of her & OM having sex.

 

I've read some of your other threads explaining a PTSD reaction to her cheating.

 

When you start to trigger or experience mind images, what coping mechanisms have you tried that could help ground you to the reality of today.

 

I understand PTSD. I understand flashbacks etc.

 

Has your counselor worked with you to help you achieve grounding techniques?

[LifeWasted]

This seems like a passive, empty threat. Like when we were kids and we used the old "if I wasn't wearing my new pants I'd fight you".

 

I want to face reality and deal with it as it is right now. My goal is acceptance and peace of mind - continue to reduce the images of her & OM having sex. I need to know that she understands how childish and narcissistic her actions were and own what she did. That her decision to "find her sexual self" and then be happy about what she found - and expect me to be happy - is borderline insane. My counselor has asked me to consider the fact that she may be literally unable to see the wrong in her actions. I won't accept this and I've encouraged her to return to IC and take an honest look at herself.

 

How the heck do you do that? How do you change the way a person is wired? If she has not come to empathy or remorse after all this time, how would she be able to now?

 

If the empathy is not there it never will be. You may have to accept that she is just not the kind of person who has the ability to empathize with you or anyone. I believe it is known as sociopathy.

[xxoo]

 

I want to face reality and deal with it as it is right now. My goal is acceptance and peace of mind - continue to reduce the images of her & OM having sex. I need to know that she understands how childish and narcissistic her actions were and own what she did. That her decision to "find her sexual self" and then be happy about what she found - and expect me to be happy - is borderline insane. My counselor has asked me to consider the fact that she may be literally unable to see the wrong in her actions. I won't accept this and I've encouraged her to return to IC and take an honest look at herself.

 

You can achieve peace without any change in her actions or words. It's a mind shift. There is no reason for you not to have peace. You are not at any risk. There is no threat, other than of your own making.

 

None of this is to say that you haven't been horribly wronged. You have. And still, it is in your power to have peace in your life, in or out of this marriage.

 

Attaching your peace to her actions is going to destroy you.

[ladydesigner]

You can achieve peace without any change in her actions or words. It's a mind shift. There is no reason for you not to have peace. You are not at any risk. There is no threat, other than of your own making.

 

None of this is to say that you haven't been horribly wronged. You have. And still, it is in your power to have peace in your life, in or out of this marriage.

 

Attaching your peace to her actions is going to destroy you.

 

The bold is very profound and so true!

[81West]

This seems like a passive, empty threat. Like when we were kids and we used the old "if I wasn't wearing my new pants I'd fight you".

 

I want to face reality and deal with it as it is right now. My goal is acceptance and peace of mind - continue to reduce the images of her & OM having sex. I need to know that she understands how childish and narcissistic her actions were and own what she did. That her decision to "find her sexual self" and then be happy about what she found - and expect me to be happy - is borderline insane. My counselor has asked me to consider the fact that she may be literally unable to see the wrong in her actions. I won't accept this and I've encouraged her to return to IC and take an honest look at herself.

 

Drifter, is there any part of you that might resist no longer having this as a defining issue in your life? I know it's been horribly painful and torturous for a very long time, but I can envision psychological risks to 'losing' it as well after 35+ years. It's been a fed and nurtured part of your self-definition for so long now you might be uneasy to imagine who you would be without it, where your power might come from then, and how the last decades might look from here if it was gone. I'm just throwing ideas out, but does any of that resonate with you?

[RightThere]

My counselor has asked me to consider the fact that she may be literally unable to see the wrong in her actions. I won't accept this and I've encouraged her to return to IC and take an honest look at herself.

 

I have to agree with your counselor. My STBXW is similar in that she doesn't feel remorse. She feels sorry for what she did (and not because she got caught, but also because of the hurt it caused).

 

But some people don't have the tools to be able to feel genuine remorse. It would involve them looking into their own soul, and saying "I knew what I was doing, and I did it anyways." By living in a state of denial, they still hold on to thread of feeling justified for their actions. Mostly because they think it will open up a floodgate of emotions they don't think they can deal with. Ironic that as a BS, you get to open up a floodgate of emotions when you discover an affair, but you don't get to choose not to have all those emotions.

 

I get that you want her to seek IC, but that is so you can get her to feel what you WANT her to feel. Probably not a popular statement, but it's not totally wrong for her to be unable to feel true remorse. I only say that because she may not be emotionally strong enough to do that. And you need to accept that she may never get there. That doesn't mean you can't still work things out with her, but you'll need to get over that image in your head that "this is what reconciliation should look like."

 

I really feel for you because if I had to choose between leaving for my own happiness or sucking it up to provide the best life for my own child/grandchild, I would have done the same thing as you in a heartbeat. No question about it.

[Zenstudent]

You can achieve peace without any change in her actions or words. It's a mind shift. There is no reason for you not to have peace. You are not at any risk. There is no threat, other than of your own making.

 

None of this is to say that you haven't been horribly wronged. You have. And still, it is in your power to have peace in your life, in or out of this marriage.

 

Attaching your peace to her actions is going to destroy you.

How do you reach the conclusion in bold?

[xxoo]

How do you reach the conclusion in bold?

 

30+ years of his wife being consistently faithful post affair. There is no reason to believe she is not trustworthy at this point.

 

Distress has a purpose: to alarm us of some possible threat. In this case, the distress has outlived its purpose. Drifter is suffering for no good reason. If he can let it go, it will only benefit him.

[LifeWasted]

Well there you go. Stay with the sociopath when you have nothing else to do.

[JS84]

I won't accept this and I've encouraged her to return to IC and take an honest look at herself.

 

The problem is you need to find peace of mind within yourself. You attaching your own peace of mind to your wife's inner thoughts and actions is a recipe for failure. That's the same type of mentality people have who think it's the job of their significant other to make them happy. That's not how it works.

 

And to be honest I don't think it's a matter of you not being able to accept it as much as you don't want to. When people show you who they are, believe them. All you're doing is wasting your time hoping that your wife will turn into the woman you want her to be and feel the way you want her to feel for the sake of making you feel better. That doesn't work either.